Difficulty in Texas

[PACtoDOC]

I was never really convinced until this last weekend that going overseas was that bad an option, but I am now for sure. Case in point; I sit on a committee for the Texas Academy of Family Physicians for Academic Affairs. We have a crisis in our state right now in getting FMG's licensed. Our state medical board has been holding up many FMG's getting their license because they are investigating their medical education and finding it to be "unsatisfactory" in many cases. They are actually tracking down their clinical evaluations, and pulling their first and second year transcripts to make sure they have had the same courses we are given at other Texas medical schools. They are even holding up applications for FMG's in many cases for unjust reasons, requiring that they have per se a rotation in "neurology" during 4th year when in fact not even every Texas medical school requires this. The bottom line is that the state board does not care that these FMG's are already in residency programs. In may cases the residents graduate in Texas from their residency and have to move out of Texas to practice because their application is still in limbo!! DO's do not have any such issue in any state, and actually the irony is that some of the doctors holding up these applications are DO's on the medical board. And if Texas is doing this, I can imagine other schools are as well. It is simply not enough to graduate from a Ross or St. Georges anymore in Texas. It is pretty clear that this is discrimination but it is something that premeds need to consider before going overseas.

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[Luck]

Sad but true. Another strike against caribbean medical schools.

 

[Aucdoctobe]

Thank You PactoDoc. I really appreciate your experiences.


Texas licensing hurdles are well known.

The reason that it doesn't bother me is because this has been done several times before. Texas is not the first state to pull something like this. Just wait awhile and someone will take them to court. Then, they will win and things will be changed. This has been going on since the 60's starting with Guadalajara.

Still, some state medical boards just don't get it. They can not have an objective set of licensing procedures that discriminate against FMG's and IMG's simply because they are FMG's and IMG's. Equivalent education is Equivalent Education.

Currently, Texas is the only state that is practicing antitrust, unethical behaviors on this level. They will learn.

 

[Luck]

Currently, Texas is the only state that is practicing antitrust, unethical behaviors on this level. They will learn.

I would be careful about what you say about Texas. They may have good reason to do what they do and maybe it is for the best that they don't allow some graduates from certain caribbean schools to practice in their state.

 

[CuteNurse]

Boy, the bitterness of some individuals is really apparent whether they realize it or not

 

[Bevo]

While Texas is doing this (Im from Texas).

I believe it to be a temporary measure at the moment. What they are doing impacts Ross, SGU, UAG, etc.

The 3 big schools (maybe AUC too, but I dont think they were involved in this since they never had licensure rights there anymore) have submitted evidence to the state legislature, hired a lawyer (who sits in the senate), and I can't remember what else.

Seems that its a few people on the board who are causing problems and holding things back (in terms of Ross getting its texas licensure rights back).
Prob the same few individuals who are refusing to license FMGs.

Possible next step is to have students and alumni email/write/phone (if they are from texas) theyir state rep(this the right word?)
But I think that is more of a desperation move at the moment.

I believe its happened before, and once this gets resolved, it'll happen again in the future.


Few notes:
Ive known about having the neurology rotation before i came here. I dont know if they state students have to take it though.

The rediculous things are : them finding the FMG education inadequate to "texas" schools and the bs law from 1995? where it states that if you go to a dual campus medical school and do a clinical rotation in Texas, then you are not eligible for licensure in Texas.


I think there are some work arounds though. i can't remember them exactly, but I think 1 was working and getting licensed in another lstate for 5 years at least. Another was getting federally licensed? i.e. working for the prison system (I dont know on this really)

 

[Aucdoctobe]

Right on target lmbebo.

Just one correction, AUC was also approved in Texas. I haven't called the school to see if they are also involved in the lawsuit. Chances are that they may be in it also. We have plenty of practicing, fully-licensed doctors in Texas. I talked to a few of them. And like everyone else, we have plenty of residents and fellows who are getting ready to go through the process of licensure.

The key is that this stuff is always going to happen. It's part of the experience of going to a Caribbean school. However, it works itself out. People who went to Caribbean schools in the 60's and 70's had it even worse than we did. The key is to focus on your education and get it done. The doctors who went to reputable Caribbean schools and graduated are very successful today.

The people who listened to detractors and decided not to go are doing everything but practicing medicine.

 

[Luck]

My advice is, why even go through the trouble. Go to a medical school in the US, MD or DO, and bypass all that nonsense. Sounds logical to me.

 

[awdc]

My advice is, why even go through the trouble. Go to a medical school in the US, MD or DO, and bypass all that nonsense. Sounds logical to me.

That would be great in a perfect world. DO's also have licensing problems in some states if one does not complete AOA internship year. Dilemmas abound among DO students as to whether to do an ACGME residency alone or spend an extra intern year.

As for Ross, it seems that they have been proactive in this issue regarding Texas. It's been awhile since I've kept up with this issue but so far, it had appeared that Ross has been meeting (or will meet) every one of the Texas requirements.

 

[Luck]

That would be great in a perfect world. DO's also have licensing problems in some states if one does not complete AOA internship year. Dilemmas abound among DO students as to whether to do an ACGME residency alone or spend an extra intern year.

Only in 5 states you have to do an AOA internship to be liscensed. This rule is not binding. If you do an ACGME residency, many times you can get the first year counted as your AOA-internship year thereby bypassing the rule.

There are no dilemmas of choosing a DO or MD residency. If you do a DO residency you do not do an extra intern year. Going to an IM, FP, or any other residency the DO or MD route will take the same years. Three years in FP going the DO or MD route. Three years in IM going the DO or MD route. The difference is in going the DO route your first year is your intern year.

As you can see, DOs do not have big problems as FMGs do. Your information about DOs is incorrect. Even if it was somewhat correct, those are minor problems compared to not even being able to practice in the states, as the problem caribbean grads may have.

 

[awdc]

Only in 5 states you have to do an AOA internship to be liscensed. This rule is not binding. If you do an ACGME residency, many times you can get the first year counted as your AOA-internship year thereby bypassing the rule.

There are no dilemmas of choosing a DO or MD residency. If you do a DO residency you do not do an extra intern year. Going to an IM, FP, or any other residency the DO or MD route will take the same years. Three years in FP going the DO or MD route. Three years in IM going the DO or MD route. The difference is in going the DO route your first year is your intern year.

As you can see, DOs do not have big problems as FMGs do. Your information about DOs is incorrect. Even if it was somewhat correct, those are minor problems compared to not even being able to practice in the states, as the problem caribbean grads may have.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the (updated?) info. I suspect that things have been improving for DO's which is good. Physicians, whether MD, DO, or IMG's, really should be assessed on their competency, not by where they graduated from.

And this whole thread brings up what I think is a very good point. If you are deciding that you will be going to a Caribbean med school, make sure you do your homework on how that school you're choosing is able to get you licensed. IMO, one should only be considering one of the "big 3" (SGU, Ross, or AUC). These schools are much more established than many of the other Carib schools and have enough resources to keep up-to-date with licensing issues and curriculum requirements. And the sheer number of graduates they pump out makes you more of a known variable when it comes time for residency.

 

[UT_OC]

Hm.. so SGU? or no... I don't know anymore after hearing what PACtoDOC said.. b/c I'm from Texas and I am still here deciding.. whether to take a chance and wait for a TX school for 2005 or just get started Jan 2005 in a Caribbean school..

 

[awdc]

Hm.. so SGU? or no... I don't know anymore after hearing what PACtoDOC said.. b/c I'm from Texas and I am still here deciding.. whether to take a chance and wait for a TX school for 2005 or just get started Jan 2005 in a Caribbean school..

If you can possibly wait, maybe you should. I would advise looking into the TX Medical Board's licensure requirements for IMG/FMGs and for foreign med schools. Make sure that whichever foreign school you decide to go to is able to meet them. You might also want to look into schools in the UK, too.

 

[Luck]

Hm.. so SGU? or no... I don't know anymore after hearing what PACtoDOC said.. b/c I'm from Texas and I am still here deciding.. whether to take a chance and wait for a TX school for 2005 or just get started Jan 2005 in a Caribbean school..

You will be making the biggest mistake of your life if you eventually want to practice in Texas. Don't do it. Wait to apply to Texas schools and even DO schools. At least with a DO school, you can easily practice in Texas again especially since TCOM (DO) is well-respected in Texas.

I believe Pactodoc goes to TCOM and he sits on that board that he's talking about.

 

[Bevo]

Its a bit harsh to stay "biggest mistake of your life"

true to wait. American schools (MD and DO) should always be 1st priority, but far from the biggest mistake of his/her life.

You will be making the biggest mistake of your life if you eventually want to practice in Texas. Don't do it. Wait to apply to Texas schools and even DO schools. At least with a DO school, you can easily practice in Texas again especially since TCOM (DO) is well-respected in Texas.

I believe Pactodoc goes to TCOM and he sits on that board that he's talking about.

 

[Luck]

Its a bit harsh to stay "biggest mistake of your life"

true to wait. American schools (MD and DO) should always be 1st priority, but far from the biggest mistake of his/her life.

You're right. It's not the biggest mistake of your life but it's up there with the other mistakes.

I respect your opinion that American schools, MD or DO, should be 1st priority especially since you are a caribbean student.

 

[Aucdoctobe]

You will be making the biggest mistake of your life if you eventually want to practice in Texas. Don't do it. Wait to apply to Texas schools and even DO schools. At least with a DO school, you can easily practice in Texas again especially since TCOM (DO) is well-respected in Texas.

I believe Pactodoc goes to TCOM and he sits on that board that he's talking about.

I only wish that more of my mistakes would end up with me becoming a successful medical doctor. Pactodoc is telling the truth but I was reading the same thing from Caribbean students back in October when this stuff really came down.

Just use common sense. If you go to a school that:

1. Has a successful track record of getting graduates licensed

2. Has truly equivalent education in that classes are taught in many cases by faculty from US medical schools with US medical schoolbooks. Plus, clinicals are done in US medical certified or approved hospitals

3. Is recognized by the US Department of Education as foreign medical education which is equivalent to US medical education

4. During the last 20 years has won every major case against a state licensing board that tried to over exert its power

4. Has thousands of successful, licensed physicians including faculty at US medical schools, physicians of the year, presidents of state medical associations, ect...

Then, no amount of power tripping by some rogue state licensing board is going to stop you from getting a license. It will be struck down in court.

I wouldn't even worry about it. Who knows? Maybe, I'll get a chance to sue them. It would be easy money, and the Texas state medical licensing board can help contribute to my medical school loan repayment fund courtesy of order by the United States Courts.

 

[Bevo]

I dont see how you can say getting a medical educatin and doing what you want in life is a mistake?
You're going to have to reaaaaaaaaaaaaally stretch the truth on that one..."buddy".

What does me being a caribbean medical student have to do with anything? Your response should be "interesting", to say the least.

 

[awdc]

You're right. It's not the biggest mistake of your life but it's up there with the other mistakes.

Quite frankly, I think it's one of the best decisions of my life to come here to Ross. If you really want to practice medicine and received no love from U.S. schools (whether allopathic or osteopathic), Ross is gives you that opportunity. A far worst mistake would be sticking with a job or profession you really have no passion for.

Let's face it, there just aren't enough med schools, MD or DO, in the U.S. to accept all qualified applicants nor to fill up thousands of unfilled residency spots each year. I don't know how TX planned to get around to taking care of themselves without enough doctors.

 

[PACtoDOC]

I have no problem with FMG's. They help us to fill primary care residencies. But in Texas, it is not enough to know the requirements of the state board ahead of time. They literally change them monthly at times. It keeps residency program directors flustered because these rules change and affect FMG's that are already accepted and in the program. The Texas TSBME is a bunch of overzealous cowboys that have way too much power.

 

[azcomdiddy]

Dilemmas abound among DO students as to whether to do an ACGME residency alone or spend an extra intern year.

Except that DO's know about this well in advance and thus can do something about it if they want to practice in a certain state like Florida so it isn't an issue. There are several exceptions to this rule and only 5 states enforce it anyway. However, you guys are just flat out screwed in Texas. And states like California are also going after IMG's in regards to allowing rotation priviledges. There aren't a lot of states that IMG's can rotate in during third year which will hurt your chances of matching if you want practice in a certain such as California.

Guys, the fear of being a DO is causing many of you to make some very irrational decisions. Do you really want to place so many limitations on yourself just so you can get an M.D.; it's not worth it. Just read all of the above. Do you really want to go through that all that crap? And like I said, your colleagues will all know that you are an IMG despite your M.D. so it's not like you can hide your credentials. Going offshore won't allow you to hide your credentials if that's what you are thinking. Your nurses, attendings, residents and other colleagues will know you are an IMG.

 

[Luck]

Guys, the fear of being a DO is causing many of you to make some very irrational decisions. Do you really want to place so many limitations on yourself just so you can get an M.D.; it's not worth it. Just read all of the above. Do you really want to go through that all that crap? And like I said, your colleagues will all know that you are an IMG despite your M.D. so it's not like you can hide your credentials. Going offshore won't allow you to hide your credentials if that's what you are thinking. Your nurses, attendings, residents and other colleagues will know you are an IMG.

I wholeheartedly agree. I hope premeds wondering between the two make the right decision and go DO.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Let us DO students not bash Carib med students for making a choice they felt like was the right one. Any FMG who can pass the USMLE is as good a physician as any US MD or DO. This thread is about the issues in Texas Luck and I for one do not wish for you to hijack my thread like you do other ones. Where someone chooses to go to medical school is based on their own personal story.

 

[iamhotok]

those white men in the government always talk about the "american" dream, i am sure that those people who are sitting in the medical boards are also bunch of white men.

the innocent people are being pushed into talking about some minor details, when they have all forgot the essense of the so-called "american dream."

there are lots of americans who want to study medicine, why aren't there enough medical schools for everyone? that is the major problem here. as i have said before, there are night schools for lawers, why can't they be more med. schools.

we need more med. schools. i don't think that anyone who is a student at any caribbean school would chose a homeland med. school over a caribbean school.

so you are all talking about a minor detail here, when you should all try to find some ways to force those white men in charge to open up more med. schools, so this part of "american dream" can be fulfilled for anyone who has that dream.

 

[Aucdoctobe]

those white men in the government always talk about the "american" dream, i am sure that those people who are sitting in the medical boards are also bunch of white men.

the innocent people are being pushed into talking about some minor details, when they have all forgot the essense of the so-called "american dream."

there are lots of americans who want to study medicine, why aren't there enough medical schools for everyone? that is the major problem here. as i have said before, there are night schools for lawers, why can't they be more med. schools.

we need more med. schools. i don't think that anyone who is a student at any caribbean school would chose a homeland med. school over a caribbean school.

so you are all talking about a minor detail here, when you should all try to find some ways to force those white men in charge to open up more med. schools, so this part of "american dream" can be fulfilled for anyone who has that dream.

Easy iamhotok. I'm telling you this as an African-American/Native-American Mix (though I look black and never understood that I was classified as Native American for Indian roles or something like that). A native American stole my great great slave grandmother from a slave owner and here I am (the story of every black person in Oklahoma).

PactoDoc is providing invaluable insight as one who actually sits on the Texas medical board. I've actually appreciated his advice. He is extremely fair and provides invaluable advice.

PactoDoc: Keep on providing the information.

Don't turn this thread into a flame war by bringing up racial issues. In the Caribbean there is only one form of preferential treatment and that is your ability to pay.

Keep those racial arguments in the preallopathic forum.

 

[Luck]

Easy iamhotok. I'm telling you this as an African-American/Native-American Mix (though I look black and never understood that I was classified as Native American for Indian roles or something like that). A native American stole my great great slave grandmother from a slave owner and here I am (the story of every black person in Oklahoma).

PactoDoc is providing invaluable insight as one who actually sits on the Texas medical board. I've actually appreciated his advice. He is extremely fair and provides invaluable advice.

PactoDoc: Keep on providing the information.

Don't turn this thread into a flame war by bringing up racial issues. In the Caribbean there is only one form of preferential treatment and that is your ability to pay.

Keep those racial arguments in the preallopathic forum.

I agree. I don't think it should be a racial issue.

I actually agreed with Aucdoc.

 

[Aucdoctobe]

I agree. I don't think it should be a racial issue.

I actually agreed with Aucdoc.

lol. There is a first time for everything.

 

[iamhotok]

i never said that this is a race issue. however, it is a fact as the time of this century, the important people in the USA are white men. you can't deny that.

oh, on my main subject, i am saying that we need more medical schools. americans are forced to go to offshore med. schools. you are arguing some minor detail.

 

[daelroy]

Let us DO students not bash Carib med students for making a choice they felt like was the right one. Any FMG who can pass the USMLE is as good a physician as any US MD or DO. This thread is about the issues in Texas Luck and I for one do not wish for you to hijack my thread like you do other ones. Where someone chooses to go to medical school is based on their own personal story.

And let us DO students not write threads with the first sentence stating: "I was never really convinced until this last weekend that going overseas was that bad an option"

 

[Aucdoctobe]

i never said that this is a race issue. however, it is a fact as the time of this century, the important people in the USA are white men. you can't deny that.

oh, on my main subject, i am saying that we need more medical schools. americans are forced to go to offshore med. schools. you are arguing some minor detail.

iamhotok, as a Caribbean student, the last thing you should want are more medical schools. I hate to sound selfish but hear me out.

There are a large number of very qualified applicants who are discouraged from going into medicine because they don't want to go to the Caribbean. They've listened to people who scare them into other professions. Meanwhile, those of us who've learned to think for ourselves go to the Caribbean and become doctors.

If the number of medical schools were increased enough to meet the number of residency spots, Caribbean schools would be done. They would go out of business. Where would we go?

What I am trying to say is that number of US medical school spots increasing will not necessarily make it easier to gain admission into a US medical school. There is sufficient enough demand for becoming doctor to have substantial
increases in supply.

Be thankful that someone is making sure there are not enough US medical spots. It provides us with opportunities.

 

[daelroy]

iamhotok, as a Caribbean student, the last thing you should want are more medical schools. I hate to sound selfish but hear me out.

There are a large number of very qualified applicants who are discouraged from going into medicine because they don't want to go to the Caribbean. They've listened to people who scare them into other professions. Meanwhile, those of us who've learned to think for ourselves go to the Caribbean and become doctors.

If the number of medical schools were increased enough to meet the number of residency spots, Caribbean schools would be done. They would go out of business. Where would we go?

What I am trying to say is that number of US medical school spots increasing will not necessarily make it easier to gain admission into a US medical school. There is sufficient enough demand for becoming doctor to have substantial
increases in supply.

Be thankful that someone is making sure there are not enough US medical spots. It provides us with opportunities.

Exactly, we will end up being like lawyers then in which is due to an oversupply of law schools. That is why so many lawyers are unemployed or are barely breaking 40K.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Hey Dal,
I'll say whatever I want when it is my f-in post. I started this thread based on my personal experience and if you don't care for it go sell crazy elsewhere. I am all stocked up here.

 

[Aucdoctobe]

I was never really convinced until this last weekend that going overseas was that bad an option, but I am now for sure. Case in point; I sit on a committee for the Texas Academy of Family Physicians for Academic Affairs. We have a crisis in our state right now in getting FMG's licensed. Our state medical board has been holding up many FMG's getting their license because they are investigating their medical education and finding it to be "unsatisfactory" in many cases. They are actually tracking down their clinical evaluations, and pulling their first and second year transcripts to make sure they have had the same courses we are given at other Texas medical schools. They are even holding up applications for FMG's in many cases for unjust reasons, requiring that they have per se a rotation in "neurology" during 4th year when in fact not even every Texas medical school requires this. The bottom line is that the state board does not care that these FMG's are already in residency programs. In may cases the residents graduate in Texas from their residency and have to move out of Texas to practice because their application is still in limbo!! DO's do not have any such issue in any state, and actually the irony is that some of the doctors holding up these applications are DO's on the medical board. And if Texas is doing this, I can imagine other schools are as well. It is simply not enough to graduate from a Ross or St. Georges anymore in Texas. It is pretty clear that this is discrimination but it is something that premeds need to consider before going overseas.

PACTODOC,

I suspect that there is much rumor regarding the Texas licensing situation. Can you illuminate on a few things to help better inform us.

Here are some questions, I have. If you could answer any of them, please let us know.

1. Have you noticed any strategies by Caribbean students, which have worked to get them licensed?

2. What things will get someone denied for sure?

3. Is there an appeal process if a license request is rejected?

4. How long should the licensure process take in general?

5. Do you know why many members of the Texas State Medical Board have decided to target FMG's?

I realize that you may not be able to answer all of these questions, but if you know of even one of them, it would help.

 

[stephew]

THe texas quesiton is a very real one for IMGs right now; SGU for instance does have grads going to texxas but for all the reasons mention in the original post in this thread, its not easy.

However some users have such a need to win a debate they dont want to see the complexity of the situation or really help others trying to come up with what's right for them. In considering where to go if you dont get accepted into a us medical school (ie allopathic), there is no one algorithm.

Remember that DO's are viewed in general the same way as IMGs- folks who failed to get into a us med school. PD's making residency decisions also will have their own personal biases; I know of program directors who are comfortable taking students from one alternative pathway but not the other, or who like grads from one IMG school and not the other and the reason generall stems from having students rotate through those places from both and their experience with them.

A premed must consider the following:
1) the % who pass their boards from a school
2) the % who make it to the boards with their class from that school
3) the sorts of residencies the grads get
4) the quality of residency within the feild the grads get
5)can you practice where you want frmo that school (i.e. get a license)
6) cost, lifestyle etc then come in in context of the above.

At Hopkins where I did my residency, I knew more IMGs than DOs but I dont have the stats on that so dont hold me to that as a fact. In other places Im sure there more DOs than IMGs. But anyone tells you there is on right answer for every student cares more about their team than you.
S

 

[Luck]

Remember that DO's are viewed in general the same way as IMGs- folks who failed to get into a us med school.

Keep putting those DOs down. It makes you look like a champ.

 

[awdc]

Keep putting those DOs down. It makes you look like a champ.

I don't know why you're getting so worked up over this? Stephew has been in practice for awhile now and this is her observation and of residency program directors also. And it's not like she is saying IMG's are viewed any better than DO's. I don't know where you come from, but my experience is that D.O.'s on the west coast are generally thought of those who didn't get into a U.S. med school as well. Same as IMG's obviously. But it's not a statement that D.O.'s are any less competent than IMG's or USMG's. Stephew isn't putting anyone down. Unless you equate not getting into a U.S. med school as a put down or that bias exists more against DO's than IMG's at some programs is somehow indignant. Given the nature of admissions, it's unreasonable to assume that just because one doesn't gain admission to a U.S. med school it must mean he is somehow less qualified. One more thing, the DOs/DO students I've met know of this, too. It's not like I don't know people in osteopathic medicine, whether student or practicing physician. Heck, my FP is a DO. They never seemed to get worked up over this observation and so I'm not sure why you are.

 

[Luck]

I don't know why you're getting so worked up over this? Stephew has been in practice for awhile now and this is her observation and of residency program directors also. And it's not like she is saying IMG's are viewed any better than DO's. I don't know where you come from, but my experience is that D.O.'s on the west coast are generally thought of those who didn't get into a U.S. med school as well. Same as IMG's obviously. But it's not a statement that D.O.'s are any less competent than IMG's or USMG's. Stephew isn't putting anyone down. Unless you equate not getting into a U.S. med school as a put down or that bias exists more against DO's than IMG's at some programs is somehow indignant. Given the nature of admissions, it's unreasonable to assume that just because one doesn't gain admission to a U.S. med school it must mean he is somehow less qualified. One more thing, the DOs/DO students I've met know of this, too. It's not like I don't know people in osteopathic medicine, whether student or practicing physician. Heck, my FP is a DO. They never seemed to get worked up over this observation and so I'm not sure why you are.

A couple of points I would like to address.

DO schools count as US med schools. Please correct this next time you talk about US med schools.

I would say about 1/3 to a 1/2 chose to go DO and not because they were MD rejects. The order for PDs is 1. MD, 2. DO, 3. FMG.

DO is not on the same level as a caribbean school.

Just as much as you people think I put caribbean schools down, both you and stephew are equally as guilty of putting DO schools down. Anyone who says that most DO students are MD rejects is guilty of doing so. You should analyze yourselves before you analyze me.

 

[Drakensoul]

Again, as someone who really doesn't give a rats testicle:

I wasn't going to respond, because I was hoping people would be able to un-derail the thread as PACtoDOC asked and get it back on topic, but apparently that won't happen..

I didn't see anything "putting down DOs" in Steph's post. DOs are not looked upon as favorably by PDs as USMDs. That's the way it goes.

Many PDs look at DOs as those who couldn't get into a USMD school. Again, that's the way it goes.

Many DOs -are- people who couldn't get into a USMD school. Again, that's the way it goes.

The above is what steph said with the "Generally, DOs are looked at the same as IMGs - people who couldn't get into a USMD school." Notice the word generally, and the context of "looked at the same as IMGs," she was only speaking in regards to the fact that they are generally viewed as USMD rejects. That's not really something to argue with, because generally, this is true.

Is there a small percentage of people who went to DO because they wanted to (e.g., inspite of the fact that they could have gotten into a good USMD school?) yes. Is that percentage large? No.

Are DOs, by nature of being DOs, any less competent in their fields than MDs? No. No one has suggested this. A DO who scores a 267 on the Step 1 and a USMD who scores a 267 on the Step 1 can both have my babies.

Being a DO is not as competitive, for residency's sake, as being a USMD. That's not a put down, that's an unfortunate fact of the situation. I've yet to meet a DO who isn't aware of this.

Step said basically what you said: USMD > DO > IMGMD
Only when you said it, it was okay. When she said it, it was 'putting down the DOs.'

 

[Aucdoctobe]

Keep putting those DOs down. It makes you look like a champ.

Luck's just mad because AAIMG was proven fraudulent. PACDOC, if you know any of those answers, please don't forget to answer them!

 

[Aucdoctobe]

Exactly, we will end up being like lawyers then in which is due to an oversupply of law schools. That is why so many lawyers are unemployed or are barely breaking 40K.

This is off topic but it's storytime. Before deciding on the Caribbean route, I considered going to lawshool. I was offered scholarships at many law schools. One place people kept on telling me to look into was Miami law school. They had a wonderful estate planning program and plenty of money -- all those retired, rich people in Florida. So, I finally decided to do so.

When I got there, I met up with one of the recruiters. We began to talk about the starting pay of attorneys.

I KID YOU NOT: THE STARTING PAY AT A DECENT ESTATE PLANNING FIRM FOR ATTORNEYS FROM A TOP RANKED ESTATE PROGRAM WAS $22,500 A YEAR! The recruiter told me!

To make things worse, the attorneys were still working 14 hour days with an average loan debt of $110K. Plus, it was only the attorneys who graduated in the top 10% of their class that had a chance at the position. I couldn't believe it!

Plus, keep in mind that this was $22,500 a year in Miami -- one of the most expensive cost of living places in the US.

Needless to say.. My consideration for being an attorney ended right there! I went back to my true love.

 

[PreDentJennifer]

Keep putting those DOs down. It makes you look like a champ.

And you keep putting those MDs down, and it makes you look like a champ too!

(For your information, since you keep posting 1. MD 2. DO 3. FMG... those graduating from Caribbean are MDs!! DUUUUUH)

Thank you all for your debates (minus Luck). It has helped me give my brother and parents a thorough understanding of both sides. Although he wishes to go to the Caribbean as we all wish him to, his fiancee is in law school and cannot move with him so he will probably stay in TX and apply to TCOM. He really can't be without her

 

[Luck]

And you keep putting those MDs down, and it makes you look like a champ too!

(For your information, since you keep posting 1. MD 2. DO 3. FMG... those graduating from Caribbean are MDs!! DUUUUUH)

Thank you all for your debates (minus Luck). It has helped me give my brother and parents a thorough understanding of both sides. Although he wishes to go to the Caribbean as we all wish him to, his fiancee is in law school and cannot move with him so he will probably stay in TX and apply to TCOM. He really can't be without her

Yes but they are FMGs. The order goes 1. US MD 2. US DO 3. FMGs. Is that clearer for you. DUUUUUHHHH.

Good luck with TCOM. Just so you know, TCOM is quite competitive. You can't just have a 20 MCAT and a 3.2 gpa as you could have in trying to get into a caribbean school.

 

[PreDentJennifer]

Yes but they are FMGs. The order goes 1. US MD 2. US DO 3. FMGs. Is that clearer for you. DUUUUUHHHH.

Good luck with TCOM. Just so you know, TCOM is quite competitive. You can't just have a 20 MCAT and a 3.2 gpa as you could have in trying to get into a caribbean school.

last time my brother reported back to us, SGU had an average MCAT score of 27, so we'll leave it at that

Take care and good luck whatever you all do. I have seen my doctor for 7 years now and still don't know where he went to school and really dont' care either

Just for example, imagine someone gets bit by a snake and rushes to the emergency dept. to find an M.D. coming to his/her service. Imagine this person saying, wait, before you do your medical procedure, answer this: where did you go to school? yeah right. It's all about personal choice, just as it is my brother's choice to stay close to his fiancee although he really wanted to go Caribbean and become an M.D.

Anyway, I'm not going to get anymore involved in these non-constructive posts. Bye all

 

[Leukocyte]

Hey LUCK, It all depends on the PD dude.

There are PDs who are "anti-DO", but willing to consider FMGs. And there are PDs who are "anti-FMG", but willing to consider DOs.

 

[Luck]

last time my brother reported back to us, SGU had an average MCAT score of 27, so we'll leave it at that

SGU is the exception. Ross didn't require MCATs until a few years ago and SABA doesn't require MCATs. It is very easy to get into most caribbean schools with the exception of AUC.

With that said, TCOM is ranked in the 20s in US NEWs primary care and is one of the best DO schools in the nation. Your brother would probably have an easier time getting into SGU vs TCOM.

Leokocyte, I guess it does depend on the PD but as our fine moderator stephew would have you believe, DOs and IMGs are the same in PDs eyes and maybe IMGs are higher, which I hardly doubt is the truth. I would say a majority believe DOs are higher with a few seeing them on the same level.

 

[Drakensoul]

Leokocyte, I guess it does depend on the PD but as our fine moderator stephew would have you believe, DOs and IMGs are the same in PDs eyes and maybe IMGs are higher, which I hardly doubt is the truth. I would say a majority believe DOs are higher with a few seeing them on the same level.

Steph didn't in any way say or insinuate that.

She said that DOs and IMGs are generally seen the same in most PDs eyes as people who couldn't get into a USMD school, which is, for the most part, true. She never said they're seen the same. She said they're generally seen the same on that single issue.

She in no way said IMGs are "higher," whatever that means.

 

[iamhotok]

there is no need to worry about the consequences of more us med. schools, because by the time they actually buidling the first door, you probably already graduate from the caribbean school.

i am talking about the long term. then of course, by the time, u become a dr, u probably don't want competitions.

 

[Aucdoctobe]

there is no need to worry about the consequences of more us med. schools, because by the time they actually buidling the first door, you probably already graduate from the caribbean school.

i am talking about the long term. then of course, by the time, u become a dr, u probably don't want competitions.

lol.. I see what you mean. Well, I guess with that argument there really is no reason to worry about it because we won't have to deal with the consequences.
Too bad for the future generations.

 

[kns83]

why cant you just practice in some other state. if you really want to practice medicine and want to make a difference in life it doesnt' really matter where you get the skills from and where you use the skills....just my 2 cents.

 

[Therese737]

I know of a couple of people who were attending a DO school in the USA, and they both decided to transfer to AUC after a year! And both said the education was much better, and the curriculum at AUC is modeled after Baylor's College of Medicine, which ironically, is in TX.

I was considering the DO route, but something about it just bothers me. After 10 years of edcation to become a physician, I really don't feel like having to explain to people all the time "What's a D.O.?" And although I like their holistic philosophy, that OMT stuff can go-no thanks.

I personally feel one of the reasons IMGs face discrminiation in the USA is because of the USA's arrogance, always thinking that if it isn't American, then it's not good. I bet if there were med schools in the virgin islands or another US territory, it wouldn't be discrminated against, b/c "its US property".But US property or not, the Virgin Islands is still caribbean, in my eyes.