Disability Insurance

[DrRobert]

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Now that I'm about to become an attending, I've been struggling with the decisions involving disability insurance. It appears that specialty specific plans are harder to find and more expensive than in the past. If I continue the plan that I have in residency the premiums are a little cheaper but still expensive.

I'm almost tempted not to get insurance.

What is the consensus out there in PP land?

 

[deleted126335]

.

 

[mille125]

Now that I'm about to become an attending, I've been struggling with the decisions involving disability insurance. It appears that specialty specific plans are harder to find and more expensive than in the past. If I continue the plan that I have in residency the premiums are a little cheaper but still expensive.

I'm almost tempted not to get insurance.
What is the consensus out there in PP land?

Do not succumb to that temptation. That would be one of the worse mistakes that you could make in your life. You chance of being disabled is infinitely higher than losing your life. I am willing to bet that you have life insurance. Do yourself a favor and pay the bucks for the plan......

 

[maceo]

Now that I'm about to become an attending, I've been struggling with the decisions involving disability insurance. It appears that specialty specific plans are harder to find and more expensive than in the past. If I continue the plan that I have in residency the premiums are a little cheaper but still expensive.

I'm almost tempted not to get insurance.

What is the consensus out there in PP land?

theyre expensive. to the tune of 500 a month depending on if you max it out.. and if it is own occ. if you get like a 5 k per month benefit own occ may cost you like 200 per month.

 

[cchoukal]

At present there are 3 companies that write specialty-specific policies, Standard, Guardian, and MetLife. I was told there was a 4th, but I can't remember the name. Some of these may not write in every state. You need an agent or broker to get you the policy, so that's the place to start. My financial planner did mine, and he was very knowledgeable about the differences. Each one is a little different in the terms, costs, etc. Some things you need to know, but that aren't always emphasized:

1) specialty-specific means that if you can't be an anesthesiologist, you get paid. Without this rider, payment will be denied based on your ability to be retrained as a radiologist or whatever.

2) They don't pay right away, and even if you have a good case, plan on lawyers being involved in payment, so make sure you have enough saved to live 6-9 months before payout.

3) you won't get the amount you pay for. That is, if you pay for $15,000 per month in coverage, you won't actually get that. You will get some amount up to that, based on your income and based on whatever other disability policies you're covered under (e.g., if your group or university has a policy on you). That doesn't mean you shouldn't get this coverage. If you change jobs later in your career to a group that has no disability coverage and try to go out and get your own coverage at that time, you'll likely be too old to qualify.

4) the exception to #3 above is that, as a resident, when you're paying for $5000/month, you will actually get that amount.

5) buy a future purchase option during residency. You will get a discount for signing up as a resident, and this option allows you to buy more coverage once you're out in practice without a new underwriting process (in other words, without a new health inquiry).

Every anesthesiologist I know thinks these policies are a good idea, and I agree. Your only asset is your ability to practice medicine, and if that disappears, most of us would be in real trouble.

 

[Pilot Doc]

I'm almost tempted not to get insurance.

What is the consensus out there in PP land?

Do you like food? How about shelter? Clothing?

Then get the insurance. Anything else is lunacy.

 

[coprolalia]

Do you like food? How about shelter? Clothing?

Then get the insurance. Anything else is lunacy.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... hold on a second...

This "insurance" presumes that you will never be able to work again in your field (e.g., you lose a hand, eye, become incapacitated, etc.). This is when this is valuable.

The problem is, doctors know how to game the system, and the insurers know that. We are the group that is most likely to come up with, say, "stress induced disability" or the like, and are able to feign the symptoms (very well, I might add) of the disease in question.

In other words, the insurers didn't just roll into town and fall off the back of a turnip truck.

You will have to fight to secure your benefit, if you choose to collect it. Trust me. I know people who've been in that position. You're going to have to prove to them you can't do something before you can collect, and if you get exclusivity in your coverage you're going to pay even more. Do you think you have a hard time fighting for reimbursment for your patients? HAH! Just wait until you try to file a disability claim. Be prepared for a long, hard, and ongoing fight... one that'll make the energizer bunny lose steam.

Fact is, most of physician disability insurance is a scam, and the insurers know it. Most physicians will have to go a VERY long way, as most of us legitimately want to work and are highly motivated, to be declared unable to work and, therefore, able to collect disability. The insurers, as well, know this.

Ask around. Ask how many people actually have disability insurance. Ask again how many have ever, and I mean ever, collected on it.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't get it. I am saying that this is definitively and primarily just another money-making scheme cooked-up by the private, for-profit insurance industry. At the very least, know that going into it.

Caveat emptor.

-copro

 

[coprolalia]

theyre expensive. to the tune of 500 a month depending on if you max it out.. and if it is own occ. if you get like a 5 k per month benefit own occ may cost you like 200 per month.

I tell you what: take that $500/month and put it into a relatively modest, safe mutual fund. Every month. That's $6,000/year. After 10 years, you'll have at least $60,000 in that fund, plus whatever else it accrues. PLUS you'll have all of your other assets you will have accrued to that point. You're hardly going to be sitting in the poor house.

The chances that you are SO incapacitated that you can't do SOMETHING are slim. YOU ARE INCREDIBLY LOW RISK, AND THOSE GREEDY INSURANCE COMPANIES KNOW IT! After you work ten years and are supposedly hurt, you've got a $60,000 + accured interest/investment to pay out to yourself without having to hire a lawyer and fight for your benefit.

Do what you think is right. I'll tell you right now, I think disability insurance is a scam and I didn't get it last year... and I'm (personally) not going to get it. I can manage my money much better than some disability company can.

This is not advice. Just what I'm doing. Caveat emptor.

-copro

 

[pgg]

I'm in the military, so my options are very limited with regard to disability insurance. For some reason these companies think I'm constantly dodging bullets and car bombers when the reality is I live in an ordinary whitebread suburb, drive to an ordinary hospital every day, wear green pajamas for a few hours, and go home. The only own-occupation policy I could find was through the AMA, and they will only sell a relatively small policy - $2500/month x5 years. But the premium is CHEAP ... about $130/year.

As for collecting ... yeah, I imaging it'd be hard to scam the system. I, like most of us, want to work and it would take a truly life-changing and debilitating injury or illness for me to quit working and file a claim. I would expect some beaurocratic hassle, perhaps even requiring I hold my nose and pay some oily-skinned lawyerly creature to represent me, but I would also expect to collect.

Like term life insurance, the younger you are and the more people who depend on you, the more important it is. If you're single, term life insurance isn't essential ... but disability insurance might be all you have to support YOU and keep paying those non-dischargable student loans if you get hurt.

So I have to disagree with coprolalia here. Not everyone needs a $10K/month 'til age 65 policy ... but barring unusual circumstances, everybody should have something. Yes, the companies exist to make a buck off your premiums, but I personally feel the small security afforded by a policy is worth the premiums I'm paying.

The fact that many physicians don't have disability insurance is a poor argument against such insurance. The masses do a lot of risky, shortsighted things.

 

[cchoukal]

Although I agree with Copro that claims are not easily won, I'm not sure i agree with the logic to rely on your own contributions to pay your way, should you become disabled. If you work, as you said, 10 years and put away 60,000, how far is that going to get you? Even if your conservative investment doubled, you're left with $120,000. How long will that really last you? At 10 years of practice, the average anesthesiologist is probably 40. That leaves 25 years of potentially productive work before retirement. $120,000 will not last 25 years. In contrast, the disability payout of, let's be conservative, $10,000 per month far exceeds this (the payments to your attorneys for fighting this notwithstanding).

Yes, all insurance is a scam, but you'd be far batter off financially with the insurance than without it, given the scenario you described.

 

[pgg]

I tell you what: take that $500/month and put it into a relatively modest, safe mutual fund. Every month. That's $6,000/year. After 10 years, you'll have at least $60,000 in that fund, plus whatever else it accrues.

You are, of course, assuming that you don't get injured 17 days into that 10 year period.

You can make the same argument against paying for almost any kind of insurance. Over a period of decades, you are almost certainly going to pay more in premiums than you'll collect in benefits. (If the average didn't work out this way, the insurance company would be insolvent and in need of a government bailout.)

Probably, nothing will happen. You probably won't wreck your car or get your hands chopped off in a freak cotton gin accident. The insurance company will probably make a huge profit off your premiums. Probably.

85-year-old geezers living in paid-off houses with no dependents don't need term life insurance. 35-year-old anesthesiologists with $200K in student loan debt, +/- a family to support, should have life and disability insurance.

 

[2ndyear]

Corp I agree with you on many levels. What I don't like is the statistics that the insurers toss around. They claimed a 1 in 4 chance of being disabled. That's pretty high. How many people do you know on disability? Of course the fine print says that this includes short term. Sure, short term disability is very plausible, break and arm or a leg skiing, need a lap chole or appy, even get real sick with the pig flu. So some degree of short term disability makes sense. This could very well be an emergency savings fund of 6 months of expenses as well, but short term disability is easy to get. There are also other policies available for long term. We all get the Cadillac policy talk as residents. The own occ, expensive, supposedly non-deniable plan. I look at it like term life insurance. Have enough for catastrophic coverage and save the rest as you stated. Once you have dependents some degree of protection is probably needed in the event of a catastrophe, but do I really need $12,000/month? Simple answer is no. Enough to cover the mortgage and bills is all that is needed.

 

[mille125]

I tell you what: take that $500/month and put it into a relatively modest, safe mutual fund. Every month. That's $6,000/year. After 10 years, you'll have at least $60,000 in that fund, plus whatever else it accrues. PLUS you'll have all of your other assets you will have accrued to that point. You're hardly going to be sitting in the poor house.

The chances that you are SO incapacitated that you can't do SOMETHING are slim. YOU ARE INCREDIBLY LOW RISK, AND THOSE GREEDY INSURANCE COMPANIES KNOW IT! After you work ten years and are supposedly hurt, you've got a $60,000 + accured interest/investment to pay out to yourself without having to hire a lawyer and fight for your benefit.

Do what you think is right. I'll tell you right now, I think disability insurance is a scam and I didn't get it last year... and I'm (personally) not going to get it. I can manage my money much better than some disability company can.

This is not advice. Just what I'm doing. Caveat emptor.

-copro

In a nutshell, it is not easy to collect but you would be a FOOL not to get it. Ok, lets say I do what you suggest and end up with 60K plus 33% for a total of 80K. I cannot work and I blow through my 6-9 months of savings. I am stuck with 80K to last for the rest of my life. This is not a strategy. You are suggesting physician-assisted suicide.

 

[coprolalia]

In a nutshell, it is not easy to collect but you would be a FOOL not to get it. Ok, lets say I do what you suggest and end up with 60K plus 33% for a total of 80K. I cannot work and I blow through my 6-9 months of savings. I am stuck with 80K to last for the rest of my life. This is not a strategy. You are suggesting physician-assisted suicide.

You are assuming that the benefit will necessarily pay out the rest of your professional working life... or that it will pay out at all...

To which I say...



-copro

 

[coprolalia]

Corp I agree with you on many levels. What I don't like is the statistics that the insurers toss around. They claimed a 1 in 4 chance of being disabled. That's pretty high. How many people do you know on disability? Of course the fine print says that this includes short term. Sure, short term disability is very plausible, break and arm or a leg skiing, need a lap chole or appy, even get real sick with the pig flu. So some degree of short term disability makes sense. This could very well be an emergency savings fund of 6 months of expenses as well, but short term disability is easy to get. There are also other policies available for long term. We all get the Cadillac policy talk as residents. The own occ, expensive, supposedly non-deniable plan. I look at it like term life insurance. Have enough for catastrophic coverage and save the rest as you stated. Once you have dependents some degree of protection is probably needed in the event of a catastrophe, but do I really need $12,000/month? Simple answer is no. Enough to cover the mortgage and bills is all that is needed.

Does anyone really believe any of these plans are going to pay out $12K/month indefinitely without a fight?

Again...



-copro

 

[Pilot Doc]

There lots of things that a physician can self-insure for.

Any attending with collision coverage on his under $40K car is probably wasting money.

By the time you've been in practice 10 years, you ought to be able to ditch property coverage for homeowners.

But there's NO way to insure against loss of income. You're looking at a potential six figure annual loss for decades. Maybe, at age 55, if you're sitting on a few million and only plan to work 5-10 more years, you don't need disability, but fresh out of residency if, as I said, you like food and shelter, you need to buy disability insurance.

 

[mille125]

Does anyone really believe any of these plans are going to pay out $12K/month indefinitely without a fight?

Again...



-copro

it will be a fight...but at least you have a chance......your scenario leaves no chance for survival in the unfortunate event of total disability......

 

[maceo]

I tell you what: take that $500/month and put it into a relatively modest, safe mutual fund. Every month. That's $6,000/year. After 10 years, you'll have at least $60,000 in that fund, plus whatever else it accrues. PLUS you'll have all of your other assets you will have accrued to that point. You're hardly going to be sitting in the poor house.

The chances that you are SO incapacitated that you can't do SOMETHING are slim. YOU ARE INCREDIBLY LOW RISK, AND THOSE GREEDY INSURANCE COMPANIES KNOW IT! After you work ten years and are supposedly hurt, you've got a $60,000 + accured interest/investment to pay out to yourself without having to hire a lawyer and fight for your benefit.

Do what you think is right. I'll tell you right now, I think disability insurance is a scam and I didn't get it last year... and I'm (personally) not going to get it. I can manage my money much better than some disability company can.

This is not advice. Just what I'm doing. Caveat emptor.

-copro

dude im with you. i have a small policy.. that im paying less than 200 bucks a month. I know these are greedy mothers to the nth degree. thats why when i was shopping around for bigger policies these guys would not stop frickin callin me. they wouldnt. Im thinking about droppin that but my conscious calls. disability insurance is a scam. However I know at least half a dozen docs who hated what they were doing and mysteriously got arthritis and could not operate.. or how about if you develop a fentanyl addiction. and you cant do anesthesia anymore.. Sounds like a disability to me

 

[mille125]

You are assuming that the benefit will necessarily pay out the rest of your professional working life... or that it will pay out at all...

To which I say...



-copro

most good plans are guaranteed to age 65..of course you will likely need to jump through several hoops to continue to claim total disability...however, it is much better than your plan

 

[foxtrot]

So I am interested to hear what companies most of you guys use? I am amazed that there are only 3 main ones out there.

 

[pgg]

Does anyone really believe any of these plans are going to pay out $12K/month indefinitely without a fight?

I know an anesthesiologist who developed a neurological disorder in his 30s. His two disability policies will pay until he's in his 60s. Don't remember if it's 62 or 65.

 

[tucker27705]

I believe Principal and Northwest Mutual both sell disability with the rider that provides you with coverage if you can not do anesthesia.
The most valuable asset you have is your ability to generate an income. Your house is worth 500K, and your ability to earn $ is worth far more. Which would you insure? Which have you insured?
I am sorry but you are wrong to say these companies will not pay benefits. I know of 3 people in my group alone who in the last 4 years have gone on disability and left the group. Cancer, a psych issue, and retinal detachment. Crap happens. Your family will be SOL if you are not insured.
Note well if you are paying with pre or post tax dollars. 15,000/mo of coverage paid with post tax dollars is not taxable as a benefit. If you pay with pretax dollars, it is.
This is my opinion, and you can disagree. But don't call me stupid.
As a matter of fact, I practiced law a few years before going to med school. Back in the 90's I represented Principal (full name?) in our state on long term disability claims. We did shoot down some of the claimants, but they were malingerers etc. I and the partner on the case had long discussions with the adjusters (in Iowa I think) and they flat out said they had no problem paying claims, but could not tolerate fraud. It drives up premiums for everyone else, thus they litigate the claims they view as having no merit. You need to pick a good company. Northwest is good from what I've heard, though pricey. (Disclaimer: I have life insurance with them, but was shot down for add'l disability over my group's coverage due to a pre-existing hearing problem).
Good luck, get coverage, if you can.

 

[tucker27705]

I earn 60,000 in three months and I'm not even a partner yet. You think that's going to allow my family to continue to live in anything other than the poor house? Put on your thinking cap.

 

[cchoukal]

I believe Principal and Northwest Mutual both sell disability with the rider that provides you with coverage if you can not do anesthesia.
.

If these companies provide it, they just started doing so since April. Since you need to purchase it through an agent or broker, I wouldn't bother trying to find the companies. i'd just find a good broker or financial planner (let's face it, you'll probably get a financial planner anyway; this is a good excuse to start that relationship) and they'll gather the info for you. Yes, they will get a commission on the sale (a one time fee that comes from the company, not you), but it's the same no matter which company you go with.

As of April, the only companies were Guardian, Standard, and MetLife.

 

[coprolalia]

At the very least, even if you disagree with me, please read this excellent article...

http://www.physiciansnews.com/finance/501.html

-copro

 

[cchoukal]

At the very least, even if you disagree with me, please read this excellent article...

http://www.physiciansnews.com/finance/501.html

-copro

In fairness, this was published in 2001. MetLife, for example, has re-entered the market (I know because I have a written estimate from them for own-occ coverage).

 

[coprolalia]

In fairness, this was published in 2001. MetLife, for example, has re-entered the market (I know because I have a written estimate from them for own-occ coverage).

Yes, fair enough. There are some other articles about horror stories from later (2005 and on), but a lot of what's in this article still remains true and is also still ongoing problems (e.g., be careful about "capitation" clauses, etc.).

I'm just pointing out to those of you who think it's all going to be wine and roses if you get hurt, it's more likely going to be Schlitz and dandelions... and even then you're going to have to fight for that.

Caveat emptor. (This is not to be construed as advice.)

-copro

 

[jwk]

Ask around. Ask how many people actually have disability insurance. Ask again how many have ever, and I mean ever, collected on it.

Using that logic, why bother with life insurance of any kind? How many of you have actually died?

Disability insurance is not a scam - it's INSURANCE, just like any other type of insurance - life, health, auto, malpractice, etc. Some are more profitable than others. And as much as you think insurace companies scam their policy holders, I can tell you of numerous instances of physicians scamming their disability companies. It's not a one-way street.

 

[mille125]

I believe Principal and Northwest Mutual both sell disability with the rider that provides you with coverage if you can not do anesthesia.
The most valuable asset you have is your ability to generate an income. Your house is worth 500K, and your ability to earn $ is worth far more. Which would you insure? Which have you insured?
I am sorry but you are wrong to say these companies will not pay benefits. I know of 3 people in my group alone who in the last 4 years have gone on disability and left the group. Cancer, a psych issue, and retinal detachment. Crap happens. Your family will be SOL if you are not insured.
Note well if you are paying with pre or post tax dollars. 15,000/mo of coverage paid with post tax dollars is not taxable as a benefit. If you pay with pretax dollars, it is.
This is my opinion, and you can disagree. But don't call me stupid.
As a matter of fact, I practiced law a few years before going to med school. Back in the 90's I represented Principal (full name?) in our state on long term disability claims. We did shoot down some of the claimants, but they were malingerers etc. I and the partner on the case had long discussions with the adjusters (in Iowa I think) and they flat out said they had no problem paying claims, but could not tolerate fraud. It drives up premiums for everyone else, thus they litigate the claims they view as having no merit. You need to pick a good company. Northwest is good from what I've heard, though pricey. (Disclaimer: I have life insurance with them, but was shot down for add'l disability over my group's coverage due to a pre-existing hearing problem).
Good luck, get coverage, if you can.

you are definitely smart to think this way

 

[mille125]

Using that logic, why bother with life insurance of any kind? How many of you have actually died?

Disability insurance is not a scam - it's INSURANCE, just like any other type of insurance - life, health, auto, malpractice, etc. Some are more profitable than others. And as much as you think insurace companies scam their policy holders, I can tell you of numerous instances of physicians scamming their disability companies. It's not a one-way street.

very true......if you listen to coprolalia's logic, i wouldnt buy any insurance...no life, no disability, no homeowners, no umbrella...just self insure........

 

[mille125]

At the very least, even if you disagree with me, please read this excellent article...

http://www.physiciansnews.com/finance/501.html

-copro

One of the good points about this article is on office overhead insurance. This is essentially a no brainer for any doc that has an office. I pay 250 dollars per year for 14000 dollars of coverage. A no brainer..........

 

[coprolalia]

very true......if you listen to coprolalia's logic, i wouldnt buy any insurance...no life, no disability, no homeowners, no umbrella...just self insure........

What? Where did I ever say that? Don't twist my logic.

First off, you have to have homeowners insurance. You can't get a mortgage without it. Furthermore, filing a homeowners claim is usually based on an occurrence that is fairly black and white. You have a property loss; it needs to be replaced. Period. Not so with disability.

Second, you don't need life insurance unless you have a lot to protect and family that will go without if you meet your untimely demise. It all depends on your risk exposure. It all depends on your background assets, as well as their liquidity. Likewise, there exists a plethora of life insurance products, as well, some of which are also scams. If you don't realize that, you haven't done enough research.

Thirdly, you can get whatever umbrella coverage you want, again, depending on what your risk exposure is and what kind of umbrella rider you want. If you honestly think that you're going to hit some jackass in your car and he's going to sue you for far beyond the realm of what is reasonable just because you're a "rich doctor", sure... get an umbrella on your auto policy.

Lastly, I said that disability insurance is a scam, nothing more. The reason why I said that is because these companies charge outrageous premiums and then will fight you tooth and nail not to pay the benefit when a claim is made.


Don't put words in my mouth.


You will note well I never said, "I'm advising you to not get disability insurance."

In fact, I think I've been quite clear about my position on this subject. I don't have it. I can manage my money and my life without it. I have a plan that does not require disability insurance, as I believe that it primarily capitalizes on greedy physicians who look to cash in - not simply provide for - if/when they have a major life-altering event. The insurance companies providing this product know this. And, you have no idea right now how you're going to have to fight to get and maintain that benefit... one you're not likely to use anyway.

Get it if you think you need it. THIS IS NOT ADVICE!

BUT... IF YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ANYTHING ELSE I SAY, LISTEN TO THIS... ALWAYS REMEMBER that there are a lot of - seemingly countless - vultures out there who perceive you as a rich doctor, somewhat naive and not very savvy in the ways of finance, who will spend their time aggressively trying to separate you from your money. The ways they will creatively attempt to do this are as limitless as they are imaginative.

-copro

 

[coprolalia]

Think of disability insurance as "term" insurance, not an annuity (although some claim to sell that as a product, as well).

If you finish residency at age 30, and you plan to work until you are 65, that's 35 years paying into a disability plan.

If you pay $500/month for your premium, you will "invest" (I use that word loosely if you have "term" disability) - and assuming that premium is fixed and won't suddenly increase substantially over that timeframe - that'll be $210,000 you've put into that plan over that timeframe. Again, if you have term, that money is gone-daddy-gone when you retire.

Now, ask yourself this: What's the true likelihood that you will become permanently disabled and unable to ever work again in that timeframe? Realistically?

If you take that same $210,000, and invest very conservatively even in a low-yield savings account (that gives you, say, 1.7% annually), you will have, with a 3.1% inflation rate and a 15% nominal tax rate, an actual dollar value of $463,000 in that same time period at the end of that investment (adjusted for inflation).

And, that's for doing very little...

NB: THIS IS NOT ADVICE!

-copro

 

[BDanes]

It is so funny how adamant copro is about this issue. Wow, you've really got it all figured out. I love how you assume that it is easy to predict what can happen in life. Is it a scam? Maybe. The bottom line is that you are trying to squabble over less than 5 percent of your take home salary for the ability to secure that income over the bulk of your working career.

If, of course, catastrophe strikes. That's why it is called insurance. No one enjoys paying for it. Your plan, like every plan anyone in history has devised, ALWAYS works out on paper. Based on your plan, if something were to happen to you within the next ten years I'm willing to bet you'd be F&$@" d three ways from Sunday.

There are lots of things in life you don't need and can cut corners on. Disability insurance is not one of them. As intelligent as you seem in some of your posts, I can always count on you to put something on the board that assures me of your idiocy.

But, I'm sure you've got a GREAT plan.

 

[coprolalia]

It is so funny how adamant copro is about this issue. Wow, you've really got it all figured out. I love how you assume that it is easy to predict what can happen in life. Is it a scam? Maybe. The bottom line is that you are trying to squabble over less than 5 percent of your take home salary for the ability to secure that income over the bulk of your working career.

If, of course, catastrophe strikes. That's why it is called insurance. No one enjoys paying for it. Your plan, like every plan anyone in history has devised, ALWAYS works out on paper. Based on your plan, if something were to happen to you within the next ten years I'm willing to bet you'd be F&$@" d three ways from Sunday.

There are lots of things in life you don't need and can cut corners on. Disability insurance is not one of them. As intelligent as you seem in some of your posts, I can always count on you to put something on the board that assures me of your idiocy.

But, I'm sure you've got a GREAT plan.

Disability insurance is a benefit, not a necessity.

If you're willing to fork-over for that benefit, knock yourself out, slim. I'm not (nor will anyone who'll happily take your money) going to stop you.

In the meantime, you can sling as much mud at me (notice I didn't call anyone names on this thread or suggest that they are mentally inferior... you did), but you cannot change that fact.

Thank you. Carry on. 🙂

-copro

 

[tucker27705]

cop,
there are risk takers and risk avoiders. chances are, you will not benefit from your disability policy. odds always favor the house/inusurer, the actuaries ensure this.
but i have a wife and 2 kids. do you? you might. if so, i would categorize you as a risk taker. i am not, especially when it comes to my family. i hope to god I pay premiums for 20+ years and never collect a dime. if that happens, i will have still have gotten my money's worth. how? by knowing for all those years that if i were to become disabled and truly unable to earn and income as an anesthesiologist, that i would receive a benefit that would keep us fairly comfortable.
i guess you are willing to risk otherwise.
tuck

i don't buy your math. we can not know that we won't be in an accident tomorrow, so how can you bank on 20 yrs of premiums growing at a conservative rate?

lets just disagree to to disagree, and let the OP ponder differing perspectives. clearly there is no universally right answer. we are allowed to make our own choices in this regard based on our individual situations and values--so far anyway. I'm sure a certain president is confident he could make this choice for all of us better than we can. Oops. did I say that?

 

[coprolalia]

Tucker,

Please do not miss the forest for the trees in my point here. This isn't about being a risk-taker.

I have weighed this carefully. My decision is mine alone and, again, I'm only advocating for myself. Do what your heart and wallet (hopefully the latter weighing more heavily) tells you is right.

However, to stay on point, you assume that the insurance provider you have - the disability plan you've bought - will act in good faith and pay you in your time of need. DON'T COUNT ON IT.

That is what I'm primarily talking about here. And, that's why I call this a scam.

These "insurers" know that you are incredibly "low risk", and that's why they offer you this self-paid product in the first place. When it actually comes time to collect, you are going to be hard-pressed to get them to pay.

Take this as an example:

http://www.ripoffreport.com/Corrupt...dent/unum-provident-ripoff-conspira-becc7.htm

I have short-term disability through my group, which is covered under ERISA (and all the legal rights underneath that). I HIGHLY recommend that EVERYONE get this, if they do not have it.

What we are talking about here, though, is a different animal altogether. The likelihood that you will suffer long-term disability that will render you unable to work is very, very low. Furthermore, many of these plans have capitations (i.e., are not truly "lifetime" benefits) depending on the diagnosis.

I'm not a risk-taker. I'm actually quite risk averse, like most other doctors. I believe buying long-term disability from these "used-car salesman in nice suits" is actually "riskier" financially than my strategy, because I don't believe that they will actually follow through on the plan as has been offered and sold. All you are likely buying is false comfort and, at the very least, an intimate (and costly) relationship with a benefits attorney should you ever have to file a claim.

I liken long-term disability to having a flotation device under your seat on the airplane: it might make you feel slightly more at ease, but it likely ain't going to do jack **** for you if the plane crashes.

Again, do what you think you need to do. Read the horror stories, though, and do your homework. If you can afford annuity-type long-term disability, then at least get that. You'll have something to show for it at the end of your career.

That is advice. Beyond that, anyone who is calling me an idiot needs to look long and hard in the mirror. 🙂

-copro

 

[Pilot Doc]

It doesn't matter if disability insurance is grossly overpriced. It still provides something that you cannot get any other way. For a substantial part of your career, at least the first 5 years if not 15, you are at risk for losing the income generation potential for which you traded away nearly a decade of your life. Disability insurance is the only way to protect that asset.

Lots of other insurance is a way to lose money. Collision insurance on a car, for example. No attending should be paying to insure collision damage. The collision premiums you pay over 30 years will substantially outstrip what 98% would receive in claims and in the other 2% of cases, it's still not much money. You ought to be able to handle the capital loss of a car.

Auto liability insurance is the exact opposite. You'd be a fool not to have it. For one, they will pay to defend you against suits - not cheap - and they will also pay catastrophic judgements. Same situation - your premiums over 30 years will substantially outstrip what 98% would receive in claims BUT in the other 2% of cases, it's a LOT of money. And it could bankrupt you.

Disability is the same. The question is not whether the insurance is a good deal - the question is what happens in the not-so-rare event that you become disabled.

 

[coprolalia]

And, here's a ruling against Unum-Provident from August 24, 2009 which shows, at the very least, a pattern concerning exactly what I'm talking about...

http://www.workforce.com/section/00/article/26/62/29.php

Or, this...

http://attorneypages.com/hot/unum-group-reverses-denied-disability-claim.htm

Now, do you guys honestly believe that, after these rulings, they're suddenly going to play nice and start being fair?

🙄

No, they just figure out which other loopholes are out there that they can jump through.

Long-term disability = false security.

Again, caveat emptor.

-copro

 

[coprolalia]

It doesn't matter if disability insurance is grossly overpriced. It still provides something that you cannot get any other way. For a substantial part of your career, at least the first 5 years if not 15, you are at risk for losing the income generation potential for which you traded away nearly a decade of your life. Disability insurance is the only way to protect that asset.

Lots of other insurance is a way to lose money. Collision insurance on a car, for example. No attending should be paying to insure collision damage. The collision premiums you pay over 30 years will substantially outstrip what 98% would receive in claims and in the other 2% of cases, it's still not much money. You ought to be able to handle the capital loss of a car.

Auto liability insurance is the exact opposite. You'd be a fool not to have it. For one, they will pay to defend you against suits - not cheap - and they will also pay catastrophic judgements. Same situation - your premiums over 30 years will substantially outstrip what 98% would receive in claims BUT in the other 2% of cases, it's a LOT of money. And it could bankrupt you.

Disability is the same. The question is not whether the insurance is a good deal - the question is what happens in the not-so-rare event that you become disabled.

(1) "Not so rare?" Huh? Please quantify that. How many physicians do you personally know who've become PERMANENTLY disabled and never able to return to work? Of the literally hundreds of physicians I personally am acquainted with, I know of exactly zero.

(2) You expect that you're going to get out of this what you paid into it... that the promise of payment is there. HA! That's where we part ways. The concept isn't bad. It's the execution that is suspect to me.

-copro

 

[coprolalia]

I have short-term disability through my group, which is covered under ERISA (and all the legal rights underneath that). I HIGHLY recommend that EVERYONE get this, if they do not have it.

Please, please, please understand the distinction. PLEASE!

-copro

 

[coprolalia]

it will be a fight...but at least you have a chance......your scenario leaves no chance for survival in the unfortunate event of total disability......

B.S.

Maobama is going to take care of me.

Actually, that should be...

-copro

 

[coprolalia]

One more point (and not to go all BladeMDA on everyone)...

You'd better really, REALLY be disabled. Because, if you've actually managed to successfully file a claim, you're going to be followed around like a Russian spy in NYC during the cold war. I mean, there's going to be video footage of you, pictures, people digging into your trash... you name it.

Don't believe me? Take a gander...

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-insurance-fraud-investigation.htm

-copro

 

[Pilot Doc]

Please, please, please understand the distinction. PLEASE!

-copro

How are you defining short term?

 

[pgg]

How many physicians do you personally know who've become PERMANENTLY disabled and never able to return to work?

One. And I could tell you all about how this young, fellowship-trained anesthesiologist wound up unable to work, and how both of his policies will pay him for the next 20-something years (though unfortunately he probably won't live that long). But I won't, because this is a meaningless question.

Decisions shouldn't be made by anecdote. I don't know anybody whose family has ever collected life insurance, but I have a substantial term policy. I don't know anybody whose house has burned down, but I have homeowner's insurance.

And I have a puny but cheap disability policy. It's all I can get at the moment, because those companies seem to think I'm at high risk of getting blown up by some durka-durka-jihad terrorist.

 

[BDanes]

Whatever you say big Internet researcher. You are right it's a scam. No one gets disabled. Especially not the three physicians I know. It really isn't a big deal since all those creditors won't come calling. They will understand. Just find some information on the Internet to show why you shouldn't have to pay them back.

Or better yet, go start another pointless political thread on a physician forum that has nothing to do with our field. I wonder how you have enough time to constantly post unbelievably long posts. Are you an anesthesiologist?

Well I guess you really do have a low chance at becoming disabled since all you do is surf the net, post here, and watch current politics and get pissed.

Some people actually live life instead of sit around. By the way how's that fanny pack working for ya???!!!!

That's all I ever needed to know about you.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

You are a ******* if you don't carry disability insurance.

 

[coprolalia]

Whatever you say big Internet researcher. You are right it's a scam. No one gets disabled. Especially not the three physicians I know. It really isn't a big deal since all those creditors won't come calling. They will understand. Just find some information on the Internet to show why you shouldn't have to pay them back.

Or better yet, go start another pointless political thread on a physician forum that has nothing to do with our field. I wonder how you have enough time to constantly post unbelievably long posts. Are you an anesthesiologist?

Well I guess you really do have a low chance at becoming disabled since all you do is surf the net, post here, and watch current politics and get pissed.

Some people actually live life instead of sit around. By the way how's that fanny pack working for ya???!!!!

That's all I ever needed to know about you.

Ad hominem noted.

Completely vacuous, aside from that.

Piss away your money however you want. I've got plenty of people I can introduce you to who'd love a crack at your wallet. Just ask nicely, sweetie.

-copro

 

[Dirtball]

You young guys should carry disability until you bank a big chunk of $ and pay down your mortgage and school loans--UNLESS you have no dependents, dependents who can earn good money while caring for you during your illness, or a rich uncle who will help out your kinfolk. .....I still carry disability and term life, but will hopefully ditch the life insur. in a few years IF the portfolio grows. I have no problem spending a few grand on disability now. I have seen docs disabled and die in my 20 yr career. YES ,it is insurance, another form of legal gambling...

 

[militarymd]

cop,

I actually understand your POV, and wish I had the balls to go bareback with DI....but my package can at best only be called a "quarter pounder".....not quite a "big mac" like yours.

I have 2 former associates within the last 5 years who are now out on PERMANENT disability....ie...fat paycheck just to wake up....no hurdles in getting the benefits either....

Now our group did lose our group policy after the a 3rd person made a second short term claim in 2 years😡....but each time the company paid.