disability...to reveal or not

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MoosePilot said:
An open door policy that gives you how much time with each professor? The medical students that I know are using in excess of two hours per day with a biochem text or notes (read material) and the same with anatomy material or the cadaver. Can you get about three hours per day outside of class with your profs?

That's cool if the software and acommodations are readily available. I have no problem with someone who can do the same job for the same cost in a different way. That's not my perception of special accomodations, though. For instance on the MCAT extra time = extra cost. Does it cost the student or is their extra cost distributed among all takers?

The MCAT is just one situatoin your focusing on. It's a one day (two for accomodations but then there are Sunday proctors anyways for the kids with religous issues to Saturday) exam.
Your also thinking in extremes. Even the dentist who couldnt read didn't use a professor for every moment of his learning.

And yeah .. I could probably get three hours a day with a professor but not necessarily the same professor.

How does this sound? Now I have the vast majority of my test books on my computer or I can access them via the internet thus I could just have my computer read to me everything. Then if there was a topic that just wasnt' working with me I dont see the problem in going to a prof to ask them to expand on that topic. It is my understanding that teachers are there to teach, not just lecture.
Many schools are also now putting their lectures on MP3s so a student could just repeatedly play lectures over and over if your at a school where exams come from lecture.


For another example: Last week I was trying to figure out something with diabetic ketoacidosis and why there is an increase in RBCs and hemoglobin. I really was not in any mood to open any books so I went to talk to one of the teachers about this. In about 15 min she'd helped me figure out the problem (note: she's not the type to actually tell you the answer you have to logic your way to the answer - which also helps me remember things) and helped me to understand a whole lot more about body hemodynamics. It probably saved me about 45 min in total study time with what I gained.

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MoosePilot said:
Would you get the level of detail and memorize all the little nitnoid facts you'll be tested on? If you will/would you're built much differently than I am (or anyone I've worked closely enough with to know).
Yeah I would. Seeing as how I have pretty close to an A overall GPA I'd say that it's a method working well for me.
 
Megalofyia said:
The MCAT is just one situatoin your focusing on. It's a one day (two for accomodations but then there are Sunday proctors anyways for the kids with religous issues to Saturday) exam.
Your also thinking in extremes. Even the dentist who couldnt read didn't use a professor for every moment of his learning.

And yeah .. I could probably get three hours a day with a professor but not necessarily the same professor.

How does this sound? Now I have the vast majority of my test books on my computer or I can access them via the internet thus I could just have my computer read to me everything. Then if there was a topic that just wasnt' working with me I dont see the problem in going to a prof to ask them to expand on that topic. It is my understanding that teachers are there to teach, not just lecture.
Many schools are also now putting their lectures on MP3s so a student could just repeatedly play lectures over and over if your at a school where exams come from lecture.


For another example: Last week I was trying to figure out something with diabetic ketoacidosis and why there is an increase in RBCs and hemoglobin. I really was not in any mood to open any books so I went to talk to one of the teachers about this. In about 15 min she'd helped me figure out the problem (note: she's not the type to actually tell you the answer you have to logic your way to the answer - which also helps me remember things) and helped me to understand a whole lot more about body hemodynamics. It probably saved me about 45 min in total study time with what I gained.

I wonder why I'm focusing on the MCAT? :rolleyes:

runion said:
I will be taking the MCAT in 4/05. Question: whether to take the MCAT under a disabled status or regularly, knowing that my verbal and writing scores will be terrible. I have heard that MCATs are marked in some way when given under alternative conditions. Does anyone know just how this affects admission? Which is worse..very poor verbal or a disability check????

You're finding ways to learn the way you want to. Why would I care? Great!

Now, on the original topic, why should someone get special circumstances on a standardized test when the purpose is to judge how they'll do in the big wide world compared to all the other students using a common standard? An MCAT under other than standard conditions is pointless. Throw it out and look at GPA.
 
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Megalofyia said:
Yeah I would. Seeing as how I have pretty close to an A overall GPA I'd say that it's a method working well for me.

Awesome. Now if this thread were all about you, we wouldn't need to discuss it anymore.

Why are you so into this? Did you take the MCAT under special circumstances?
 
MoosePilot said:
An MCAT under other than standard conditions is pointless. Throw it out and look at GPA.


Well and from what I've been told some medical schools do exactly this and go with letters of recomendation from profs and GPA.

Now here's something else. The MCAT is/or one of the last standardized exams that still reports to schools that it was taken with accomodations.
 
MoosePilot said:
Awesome. Now if this thread were all about you, we wouldn't need to discuss it anymore.

Why are you so into this? Did you take the MCAT under special circumstances?
I'm just trying to point out that it's possible to have different ways to learn.
Back to the dentist: My point is that he took exams with accomodations, learned to work around his disabilites with accomodations and is sucessful.

So what does it matter if someone takes one exam/or all their written exams under different circumstances? In the end what counts is how good are they at their job.
 
Megalofyia said:
Well and from what I've been told some medical schools do exactly this and go with letters of recomendation from profs and GPA.

Now here's something else. The MCAT is/or one of the last standardized exams that still reports to schools that it was taken with accomodations.

Yes, political correctness is run amok.
 
Megalofyia said:
I'm just trying to point out that it's possible to have different ways to learn.
Back to the dentist: My point is that took exams with accomodations, learned to work around his disabilites with accomodations and is sucessful.

So what does it matter if someone takes one exam/or all their written exams under different circumstances? In the end what counts is how good are they at their job.

Why take tests? If they don't have any bearing on the expected job performance, they're pointless. Let's just ask someone, "Hey, are you going to be good? Great! We'll give you a degree four years from now. Oh, BTW, how good are you going to be? We need to know whether to print it as Cum Laude or not..."

The MCAT is meant to indicate how well a student will do on certain aspects of medical school. Medical school evaluations are meant to be sure the student is learning what they need in order to perform as a resident. Residency is meant to teach what is needed to perform as a doctor. Anecdotal exceptions don't change those intents.
 
Megalofyia said:
Well and from what I've been told some medical schools do exactly this and go with letters of recomendation from profs and GPA.

Now here's something else. The MCAT is/or one of the last standardized exams that still reports to schools that it was taken with accomodations.

I think that it's good that they do so. There are people with genuine learning disabilities, and I doubt the schools will hold that against them. So, why not report it?
On the other hand, the diagnosis of some of those problems is somewhat subjective, and if there were no note on the report that it was taken with accomodations, the gunners among us would have a great incentive to try to get classified as learning disabled for the sake of the MCAT, get the higher score, and then jauntily set off to Harvard....
 
MoosePilot said:
Why take tests? If they don't have any bearing on the expected job performance, they're pointless. Let's just ask someone, "Hey, are you going to be good? Great! We'll give you a degree four years from now. Oh, BTW, how good are you going to be? We need to know whether to print it as Cum Laude or not..."

The MCAT is meant to indicate how well a student will do on certain aspects of medical school. Medical school evaluations are meant to be sure the student is learning what they need in order to perform as a resident. Residency is meant to teach what is needed to perform as a doctor. Anecdotal exceptions don't change those intents.

I forget which school it is but one of the medical schools doesn't have exams the first two years -- I'm not sure about how the clinical years are done.

I also made a point to write "written exams", alot of the evaluating the clinical years and in residency is not by written exam.

Also an exam is an exam.. weather you take with extended time or not. You still have to answer the questions by using the information you have in your head and not going back to other sources.
 
Megalofyia said:
Also an exam is an exam.. weather you take with extended time or not. You still have to answer the questions by using the information you have in your head and not going back to other sources.

So why not eliminate time constraints for everyone? Solves the problem and yet keeps it standardized. I have to feel that "special" circumstances are an artificial way to elevate one sub-group's scores relative to the majority of testers.
 
Megalofyia said:
I forget which school it is but one of the medical schools doesn't have exams the first two years -- I'm not sure about how the clinical years are done.

I also made a point to write "written exams", alot of the evaluating the clinical years and in residency is not by written exam.

Also an exam is an exam.. weather you take with extended time or not. You still have to answer the questions by using the information you have in your head and not going back to other sources.
But shelf exams and board certification exams are.
 
My ex brother in law was legally blind since the time he was about 10. His vision continued to fail and now, at about 40, he is completely blind. He is a high school/middle school guidance counselor - he loves his job, the kids, parents and other teachers/school staff/administration love him. In college, he had readers for each subject - mostly work-study students - and had oral exams (even for multiple choice).

This was before computers could read text easily, and when voice simulation was really bad. He, and a couple of other friends of mine with severe dyslexia who are now fabuously successful structural engineers, also got free books on tape from the NY State Library - not the ones read by the author or famous actor, but dull ones read by a librarian or something. Apparently, any textbook that they didn't already have available would be put together for the student (probably would have to give them an advance schedule and maybe get tapes one chapter at a time, if appropriate), and they also kept up with bestsellers and classic lit. The Association for the Blind works with the state library, I think, to get the books out.

When he went for certification in Mass (he was already certified by NYS), they wouldn't provide extra time, but they did provide a reader/transcriber. My b-i-l had to dictate sentences with punctuation & all, and the reader had to thoroughly read each multiple choice question to him, so he got about 1/4 of the way through the test, which I think was 1/2 day or all day long. He found out that of the parts he attempted, his score was excellent, but because he couldn't finish, he didn't pass the certification. There was legal action proposed (and a few other disabled people had brought similar complaints to the Mass. Bd. of Ed. at the same time), and I don't remember the outcome specifically, but they were going to allow him to sit for the exam over two weekends if necessary. By that time, he had a job in VT and was happy with that, and declined the offer.

Point is, reasonable accommodation is REASONABLE when the disability doesn't inhibit a person's ability to perform a job, whatever it is. I think it is only fair to the person who wants the training, and is capable of performing well (based on past academic/career performance), to be given multiple and aggressive means to attain the education needed.
 
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The thing about the MCAT is that there is no way to determine the EXACT amount of extra time the disabled person needs. Does your ADD cause you to lose 3 minutes and 34 seconds? You arn't going to get that exact time extension.

Even one more minute over what the disability really requires would be unfair.
 
Education vs. say... medicine?! An M.D. is a degree to practice medicine. A psychiatrist may have the leisure to take their time, but what about an EP? Time limits are real. I'd love to have more time. I perform much better without time limits. I was on my academic team in high school and I was always one of the picks for anything that didn't require buzzing in, but I overthink every question and that takes time. Do I deserve more time? :p
 
MoosePilot said:
Can you post the text? It won't let me read it.

Sorry.. article from Forbes magazine:

Companies, People, Ideas
Disabilities In the E.R.
Virginia Postrel, 11.01.04, 12:00 AM ET

Why, if it's illegal to discriminate against medical students who are slow readers, is it not illegal to discriminate against the ones who are slow learners?
When Mark Breimhorst took the Graduate Management Admission Test a few years ago, he got extra time to accommodate his disability. The Educational Testing Service noted the "nonstandard administration" when it reported his scores to business schools.

Protesting the stigma of flagged scores, Breimhorst sued under the Americans With Disabilities Act. ETS settled and agreed to stop reporting special accommodations. Now professional schools can't tell the difference between high scores earned by students under normal deadlines and high scores earned by students who get extra time.

In Breimhorst's case, that's justice. He was born without hands and needs extra time to fill out test forms. Neither business school classes nor management jobs demand significant manual dexterity.

But what about mental dexterity? There, the same principles of disability law behind Breimhorst's suit are clashing with the demands of professional life and the schools that prepare students for it.

Over the past decade students with learning disabilities have gotten used to having extra time on tests and, in some cases, separate rooms to reduce distraction. In many cases that makes sense. Giving a dyslexic third grader extra time on a standardized test makes it more likely that his answers will show what he knows rather than how fast he reads.

But a sensible accommodation for little kids can create a misleading double standard for adults. How much you know isn't the only thing that matters in school--especially when you're training for a demanding professional job. What patient wants a genius doctor who can't focus in a distracting environment, reads so slowly that she can't keep up with medical journals or tends to misspell drug names on prescriptions?

There are, of course, excellent physicians with learning disabilities. But they succeeded the hard way, without special accommodations. They demonstrated that they could work around their problems.

That's not fair, argue disability activists, and it's not legal.

"You're disabled or you're not," says Stephen Tollafield, an attorney with Disability Rights Advocates in Oakland, Calif. "A person can have a substantial disability in reading even though their intelligence and hard work have helped them to compensate for their disability. But the law requires that if you have a substantial disability, you're entitled to accommodation."

In a class action filed in California state court in July, he and other attorneys argue that medical school admissions tests unfairly discriminate against applicants with disabilities like dyslexia. The Association of American Medical Colleges, argues the suit, is too stingy about giving learning-disabled students the accommodations they've depended on throughout their academic careers.

The plaintiffs, says the suit, "have earned high school and college diplomas, often with high grades and other significant achievements. Plaintiffs were able to reach their potential and succeed, in part, because they received reasonable accommodations at school and on previous standardized admissions tests such as the SAT."

The lawsuit ignores the nature of medical training, which is notoriously grueling for a reason. Patients' lives depend on physicians' ability to perform under pressure. If learning-disabled students can't do well on a timed test, maybe they aren't suited to be doctors.

Irrelevant, says Tollafield. "The MCAT is not a test that's designed to predict how you would do as a doctor. It's designed to predict how you'll do on other tests in medical school and the grades that you'll earn."

That argument denies the fundamental reality of professional schools. No matter how theoretical their classes, these programs aren't about learning for learning's sake. They're trade schools that prepare and certify people for demanding jobs. In those jobs, performance--not intelligence or knowledge--is what matters.

Besides, the disability rights people have no objection to the most blatant form of educational discrimination: the prejudice against people who, thanks to the genetic lottery, aren't exceptionally bright.

For an aspiring doctor, average intelligence is a far greater handicap than dyslexia or attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Why do some brain attributes matter more than others? Why, to use the trendy jargon, should we "privilege" intelligence?

"Wow," says Tollafield. "That's a big policy question. I don't know that I'm capable of answering it."
 
mashce said:
I think that it's good that they do so. There are people with genuine learning disabilities, and I doubt the schools will hold that against them. So, why not report it?
On the other hand, the diagnosis of some of those problems is somewhat subjective, and if there were no note on the report that it was taken with accomodations, the gunners among us would have a great incentive to try to get classified as learning disabled for the sake of the MCAT, get the higher score, and then jauntily set off to Harvard....

As a former learning disabilities counselor, I can tell you that it is very difficult to get diagnosed with a learning disability. The patient must go through an entire battery of neuropsychological testing. The school will not just let a student get "extra time." A letter explaining the disability is needed. As a counselor, I have asked students to provide letters from psychologists.
 
"They're trade schools that prepare and certify people for demanding jobs. In those jobs, performance--not intelligence or knowledge--is what matters."

I'm pretty sure intelligence and knowledge matters a great deal in the medicial profession..

You need all three areas and I think that it's up to the person to know his or her limits and would choose the proper speciality according to his or her strengths.





nimotsu said:
Sorry.. article from Forbes magazine:

Companies, People, Ideas
Disabilities In the E.R.
Virginia Postrel, 11.01.04, 12:00 AM ET

Why, if it's illegal to discriminate against medical students who are slow readers, is it not illegal to discriminate against the ones who are slow learners?
When Mark Breimhorst took the Graduate Management Admission Test a few years ago, he got extra time to accommodate his disability. The Educational Testing Service noted the "nonstandard administration" when it reported his scores to business schools.

Protesting the stigma of flagged scores, Breimhorst sued under the Americans With Disabilities Act. ETS settled and agreed to stop reporting special accommodations. Now professional schools can't tell the difference between high scores earned by students under normal deadlines and high scores earned by students who get extra time.

In Breimhorst's case, that's justice. He was born without hands and needs extra time to fill out test forms. Neither business school classes nor management jobs demand significant manual dexterity.

But what about mental dexterity? There, the same principles of disability law behind Breimhorst's suit are clashing with the demands of professional life and the schools that prepare students for it.

Over the past decade students with learning disabilities have gotten used to having extra time on tests and, in some cases, separate rooms to reduce distraction. In many cases that makes sense. Giving a dyslexic third grader extra time on a standardized test makes it more likely that his answers will show what he knows rather than how fast he reads.

But a sensible accommodation for little kids can create a misleading double standard for adults. How much you know isn't the only thing that matters in school--especially when you're training for a demanding professional job. What patient wants a genius doctor who can't focus in a distracting environment, reads so slowly that she can't keep up with medical journals or tends to misspell drug names on prescriptions?

There are, of course, excellent physicians with learning disabilities. But they succeeded the hard way, without special accommodations. They demonstrated that they could work around their problems.

That's not fair, argue disability activists, and it's not legal.

"You're disabled or you're not," says Stephen Tollafield, an attorney with Disability Rights Advocates in Oakland, Calif. "A person can have a substantial disability in reading even though their intelligence and hard work have helped them to compensate for their disability. But the law requires that if you have a substantial disability, you're entitled to accommodation."

In a class action filed in California state court in July, he and other attorneys argue that medical school admissions tests unfairly discriminate against applicants with disabilities like dyslexia. The Association of American Medical Colleges, argues the suit, is too stingy about giving learning-disabled students the accommodations they've depended on throughout their academic careers.

The plaintiffs, says the suit, "have earned high school and college diplomas, often with high grades and other significant achievements. Plaintiffs were able to reach their potential and succeed, in part, because they received reasonable accommodations at school and on previous standardized admissions tests such as the SAT."

The lawsuit ignores the nature of medical training, which is notoriously grueling for a reason. Patients' lives depend on physicians' ability to perform under pressure. If learning-disabled students can't do well on a timed test, maybe they aren't suited to be doctors.

Irrelevant, says Tollafield. "The MCAT is not a test that's designed to predict how you would do as a doctor. It's designed to predict how you'll do on other tests in medical school and the grades that you'll earn."

That argument denies the fundamental reality of professional schools. No matter how theoretical their classes, these programs aren't about learning for learning's sake. They're trade schools that prepare and certify people for demanding jobs. In those jobs, performance--not intelligence or knowledge--is what matters.

Besides, the disability rights people have no objection to the most blatant form of educational discrimination: the prejudice against people who, thanks to the genetic lottery, aren't exceptionally bright.

For an aspiring doctor, average intelligence is a far greater handicap than dyslexia or attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Why do some brain attributes matter more than others? Why, to use the trendy jargon, should we "privilege" intelligence?

"Wow," says Tollafield. "That's a big policy question. I don't know that I'm capable of answering it."
 
superdavykinz said:
"They're trade schools that prepare and certify people for demanding jobs. In those jobs, performance--not intelligence or knowledge--is what matters."

I'm pretty sure intelligence and knowledge matters a great deal in the medicial profession..

You need all three areas and I think that it's up to the person to know his or her limits and would choose the proper speciality according to his or her strengths.
I think you're misreading the quote. The author was saying that performance is the true indicator of a physician's success. Who cares if your orthopedic surgeon can memorize the indications for every drug in the PDR if he can't actually PERFORM the operation. When push comes to shove, there are going to be situations in your professional career when special accomodations aren't going to an option, and you need to be able to get by without them.

Besides, the disability rights people have no objection to the most blatant form of educational discrimination: the prejudice against people who, thanks to the genetic lottery, aren't exceptionally bright.
This is the most important thing right here, IMO. If you guys are going to stand up for a blind guy, a dyslexic guy, and a deaf guy, why not stand up for the dumb guy? Either you can perform your task with REASONABLE accomodations, or you can't do it at all.


As for the MCAT, I've got a friend who's every bit as smart as I am, but he's an ESL student, so he can't read English quite as fast as I can. He doesn't have a reading disability or anything - he's just not quite as fluent. He's not eligible for any time increase, so why should someone else get more time?
 
TheProwler said:
I think you're misreading the quote. The author was saying that performance is the true indicator of a physician's success. Who cares if your orthopedic surgeon can memorize the indications for every drug in the PDR if he can't actually PERFORM the operation. When push comes to shove, there are going to be situations in your professional career when special accomodations aren't going to an option, and you need to be able to get by without them.


This is the most important thing right here, IMO. If you guys are going to stand up for a blind guy, a dyslexic guy, and a deaf guy, why not stand up for the dumb guy? Either you can perform your task with REASONABLE accomodations, or you can't do it at all.


As for the MCAT, I've got a friend who's every bit as smart as I am, but he's an ESL student, so he can't read English quite as fast as I can. He doesn't have a reading disability or anything - he's just not quite as fluent. He's not eligible for any time increase, so why should someone else get more time?

Yes, those are exactly my points.

1. There comes a time when nobody can help you anymore. It's better that comes during the assessment stage than the life or death performance stage.

2. Arbitrarily compensating one type of learning difficulty, but not others is wrong. The whole point of tests is to discriminate between people's ability. Not being smart or not speaking the language affects ability just like having a reading disability.
 
Back to the OP's question. I think you should report it. If you need to use the accomodations, they will need to know about your documented disability. Good luck
 
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