Discoverpodiatry.org

[Sendin_Toes_2market]

Refreshing to see an honest post once in awhile. A lot of us are in this boat. No shame, it’s real life. Podiatry offers great opportunity, it’s not a guarantee.

i don’t have a chip on my shoulder, only mycotic dust until I get a new job.

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[shadesofgrey]

It's obvious there is opportunity to make more money in podiatry than you would as a family medicine doc or hospitalist. With a wide range in salary it's impossible to come up with a single number or resource that accurately represents the income of the profession. The guarantee of committing to a surgical specialty from day 1 of pod school is what attracted me to this field. The financial ROI wasn't as obvious to me back when I was pre-pod but I didn't care. I couldn't see myself not working with my hands. The risk of going into MD/DO school not knowing whether I was going to match into a surgical specialty was not appealing to me even though I had a competitive application for allopathic medical school.

Think of it this way, we know the matriculants to pod school have lower average scores than MD/DO schools. So a competitive MD/DO candidate would be among the top applicants for pod school. Those same people are more likely to be the top earners of the profession. We have a high incoming ceiling that rewards hard workers. No income is guaranteed in life, but knowing what I know now I would still make the same decision I made almost 2 decades ago.

Some random thoughts:

Hospitalist and family med docs might do better than ya think. However, the crux of the issue is a hospitalist/family med doc should be able to get a 250k job anywhere in the country. Which also opens the doors to PSLF, loan forgiveness programs through the hospital, and in general far superior benefits than what is available to a typical PP podiatrist. Meanwhile podiatry is over here creating a tiered system based on if you are able to score a hospital job. When I graduated, about 7 years ago, my job offers ranged from 90k-120k. One of my good buddies got a hospital job and earned a guaranteed base of around 250k, the first year. Things are much improved on my end, as I'm a partner at my practice and have shares in a surgical center, and I still earn less than him (he's in 340k+ club). The killer though is my income is being used to pay off student loans, the buy in for my practice and the surgical center buy in. His student loans are about to be forgiven through pslf and he's about to buy his 3rd rental house.

The ceiling of podiatry's pay may compare favorably to a PCP but it is still low compared to our surgical peers (ortho foot and ankle). However, the real problem is the floor of our pay scale and how many of our new practitioners are closer to the floor. I expect this to get worse as we continue to pump out 500+ new pods every year and the supply of pods greatly out strips demand for podiatry care (except for at risk foot care).
I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of where our new grads are getting jobs. What is the percentage of PP to hospital jobs? What is the percentage of nursing home jobs? I think this info would be as telling as salary data in determining the health of the field.

Finally, I think it prudent to point out that the average prepod doesn't truly know if they like surgery or not. I would argue many residents don't even know if they like surgery until they get out and experience the stress of attending postop care. I'm glad it worked out for you, but there are plenty of folks who thought they wanted to do surgery or just lack the aptitude for it and are now quite limited. Thus also hard to advise young prepod folks to take out 300k in loans because they "like surgery". MD/DO obviously have more exposure to surgery before committing and also have more options if a resident realizes surgery isn't for them.

In conclusion, there is clearly potential for financial success in podiatry, but there is also potential at the roulette table. It's more a question of, is this a wise investment or not? If you get into MD/DO school, work hard and practice ethically, then you almost have to make an overt financial mistakes to financially struggle. Where as in podiatry, in my opinion, you have to be good, work hard and still may need some lucky breaks to come out ahead. The risk in time and and money is very real and dangerous. Prepods need to know they may spend 300k and end up spending more time at a nursing home than in an OR and this is not indicated at all in the recruitment campaign. Thus to me it seems disingenuous at best and borderline immoral at worst to push folks toward podiatry based on the questionable career outlook, high levels of debt, and questionable salary (not to mention variable training).

/end rant

 

[AttackNME]

Some random thoughts:

Hospitalist and family med docs might do better than ya think. However, the crux of the issue is a hospitalist/family med doc should be able to get a 250k job anywhere in the country. Which also opens the doors to PSLF, loan forgiveness programs through the hospital, and in general far superior benefits than what is available to a typical PP podiatrist. Meanwhile podiatry is over here creating a tiered system based on if you are able to score a hospital job. When I graduated, about 7 years ago, my job offers ranged from 90k-120k. One of my good buddies got a hospital job and earned a guaranteed base of around 250k, the first year. Things are much improved on my end, as I'm a partner at my practice and have shares in a surgical center, and I still earn less than him (he's in 340k+ club). The killer though is my income is being used to pay off student loans, the buy in for my practice and the surgical center buy in. His student loans are about to be forgiven through pslf and he's about to buy his 3rd rental house.

The ceiling of podiatry's pay may compare favorably to a PCP but it is still low compared to our surgical peers (ortho foot and ankle). However, the real problem is the floor of our pay scale and how many of our new practitioners are closer to the floor. I expect this to get worse as we continue to pump out 500+ new pods every year and the supply of pods greatly out strips demand for podiatry care (except for at risk foot care).
I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of where our new grads are getting jobs. What is the percentage of PP to hospital jobs? What is the percentage of nursing home jobs? I think this info would be as telling as salary data in determining the health of the field.

Finally, I think it prudent to point out that the average prepod doesn't truly know if they like surgery or not. I would argue many residents don't even know if they like surgery until they get out and experience the stress of attending postop care. I'm glad it worked out for you, but there are plenty of folks who thought they wanted to do surgery or just lack the aptitude for it and are now quite limited. Thus also hard to advise young prepod folks to take out 300k in loans because they "like surgery". MD/DO obviously have more exposure to surgery before committing and also have more options if a resident realizes surgery isn't for them.

In conclusion, there is clearly potential for financial success in podiatry, but there is also potential at the roulette table. It's more a question of, is this a wise investment or not? If you get into MD/DO school, work hard and practice ethically, then you almost have to make an overt financial mistakes to financially struggle. Where as in podiatry, in my opinion, you have to be good, work hard and still may need some lucky breaks to come out ahead. The risk in time and and money is very real and dangerous. Prepods need to know they may spend 300k and end up spending more time at a nursing home than in an OR and this is not indicated at all in the recruitment campaign. Thus to me it seems disingenuous at best and borderline immoral at worst to push folks toward podiatry based on the questionable career outlook, high levels of debt, and questionable salary (not to mention variable training).

/end rant

The point is to compare income potential with realistic applicant competitiveness. Someone who has no chance of getting into MD/DO and uses podiatry to have a shot at surgery would have access to opportunity, but are likely to end up at the bottom range of podiatrist income and probably do limited or no surgery. Someone who has a competitive but average application for MD/DO can decide to compete for specialties where they’re average, or they can compete amongst podiatrists in a pool where they’re likely to be above average or top of class for test scores and work ethic. Those candidates are more likely to access the ceiling of podiatry income, and if you compare that to the average income or the floor of MD/DO income… you get the picture.

Btw I got scholarship for half tuition off my first year because of my competitive application. That wasn’t gonna happen if I went MD/DO

 

[air bud]

Some random thoughts:

Hospitalist and family med docs might do better than ya think. However, the crux of the issue is a hospitalist/family med doc should be able to get a 250k job anywhere in the country. Which also opens the doors to PSLF, loan forgiveness programs through the hospital, and in general far superior benefits than what is available to a typical PP podiatrist. Meanwhile podiatry is over here creating a tiered system based on if you are able to score a hospital job. When I graduated, about 7 years ago, my job offers ranged from 90k-120k. One of my good buddies got a hospital job and earned a guaranteed base of around 250k, the first year. Things are much improved on my end, as I'm a partner at my practice and have shares in a surgical center, and I still earn less than him (he's in 340k+ club). The killer though is my income is being used to pay off student loans, the buy in for my practice and the surgical center buy in. His student loans are about to be forgiven through pslf and he's about to buy his 3rd rental house.

The ceiling of podiatry's pay may compare favorably to a PCP but it is still low compared to our surgical peers (ortho foot and ankle). However, the real problem is the floor of our pay scale and how many of our new practitioners are closer to the floor. I expect this to get worse as we continue to pump out 500+ new pods every year and the supply of pods greatly out strips demand for podiatry care (except for at risk foot care).
I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of where our new grads are getting jobs. What is the percentage of PP to hospital jobs? What is the percentage of nursing home jobs? I think this info would be as telling as salary data in determining the health of the field.

Finally, I think it prudent to point out that the average prepod doesn't truly know if they like surgery or not. I would argue many residents don't even know if they like surgery until they get out and experience the stress of attending postop care. I'm glad it worked out for you, but there are plenty of folks who thought they wanted to do surgery or just lack the aptitude for it and are now quite limited. Thus also hard to advise young prepod folks to take out 300k in loans because they "like surgery". MD/DO obviously have more exposure to surgery before committing and also have more options if a resident realizes surgery isn't for them.

In conclusion, there is clearly potential for financial success in podiatry, but there is also potential at the roulette table. It's more a question of, is this a wise investment or not? If you get into MD/DO school, work hard and practice ethically, then you almost have to make an overt financial mistakes to financially struggle. Where as in podiatry, in my opinion, you have to be good, work hard and still may need some lucky breaks to come out ahead. The risk in time and and money is very real and dangerous. Prepods need to know they may spend 300k and end up spending more time at a nursing home than in an OR and this is not indicated at all in the recruitment campaign. Thus to me it seems disingenuous at best and borderline immoral at worst to push folks toward podiatry based on the questionable career outlook, high levels of debt, and questionable salary (not to mention variable training).

/end rant

All of this.

 

[AttackNME]

All of this.

What about all the atrocities of MD/DO suicide, resident abuse, burnout, insurance issues, administrative burden? Are they forthcoming with all the downsides of that?

 

[MicroPod]

If you follow WCI a common saying is that intraspecialty wage difference is greater than wage difference between specialties. So sure you can make a killing in basically all medical specialties, FM, Internal medicine and podiatry included. But I think you also have to look at the low end (hopefully the first few years only) and you can see why people are disgruntled and feel they were lied to. The low end of the lower paying medical specialties is vastly higher than the low end of podiatry. The signing bonus of some of them rival first year PP associate salary.

 

[AttackNME]

I get the point, but you have to look at the applicant. Low end of a podiatry student’s stats compared to the low end of a MD/DO students stats. Is the difference comparable to the income difference?

 

[Prehealth1011]

The point is to compare income potential with realistic applicant competitiveness. Someone who has no chance of getting into MD/DO and uses podiatry to have a shot at surgery would have access to opportunity, but are likely to end up at the bottom range of podiatrist income and probably do limited or no surgery. Someone who has a competitive but average application for MD/DO can decide to compete for specialties where they’re average, or they can compete amongst podiatrists in a pool where they’re likely to be above average or top of class for test scores and work ethic. Those candidates are more likely to access the ceiling of podiatry income, and if you compare that to the average income or the floor of MD/DO income… you get the picture.

Can you guarantee that you’ll start at 250k-300k base as a podiatrist?

 

[AttackNME]

Can you guarantee that you’ll start at 250k-300k base as a podiatrist?

why should a 2.5 gpa 490 mcat podiatry matriculant have access to the same income floor guarantees of an MD/DO matriculant?

 

[Sendin_Toes_2market]

why should a 2.5 gpa 490 mcat podiatry matriculant have access to the same income floor guarantees of an MD/DO matriculant?

Why should an international MD?

Why advertise it as normal? That’s the issue, it’s fraud to get 300k in student loans money. It’s a Ponzi scheme.

-Good career alternative
-starting salaries 125k-250k, 1-2 years out.
-salaries 180k-400k, 2+ years of experience.

Just be truthful. That’s all I ask.

 

[shadesofgrey]

What about all the atrocities of MD/DO suicide, resident abuse, burnout, insurance issues, administrative burden? Are they forthcoming with all the downsides of that?

I think most of the above issues are likely also seen in the pod world. However, it still doesn't justify the borderline deceitful campaign add.

why should a 2.5 gpa 490 mcat podiatry matriculant have access to the same income floor guarantees of an MD/DO matriculant?

The better question is why would the pod school accept this student?

 

[AttackNME]

I took the matriculant averages of public DPM and MD data and plotted it. A 500 MCAT is top 5% for DPM and bottom 5% for MD.

Now if you look at the top 5% for DPM income and compare to bottom 5% for MD income, this shows the opportunity that podiatry offers.

I think most of the above issues are likely also seen in the pod world. However, it still doesn't justify the borderline deceitful campaign add.



The better question is why would the pod school accept this student?

Let me ask you this. What should be the absolute minimum for a podiatry student? We know Gpa and MCAT isn’t the end all be all, but we have to balance opportunity vs financial risk. But if you were the president of CPME what would be your cap and why? What data have you considered to support your opinion?

 

[Feli]

You guys are all making killer points, but way over-thinking this...

No matter what pod scholarships or class rank or residency or fellowship or job: get a high income partner (same or higher than the avg pod 200k or whatever it actually is now).

Even the hospital pod money won't support a family too well, and they risk burnout or major income loss if job gap/change. There's also the pitfall that many spouses dont love rural Montana or Nebraska. The $220k VA pod jobs and $175k associate or supergroup gigs are easier to get, but they sure don't move the needle much after tax and loan pays.

In order to win a rough game with low ROI, gotta find the hacks... cheat code.

 

[AttackNME]

Why should an international MD?

Why advertise it as normal? That’s the issue, it’s fraud to get 300k in student loans money. It’s a Ponzi scheme.

-Good career alternative
-starting salaries 125k-250k, 1-2 years out.
-salaries 180k-400k, 2+ years of experience.

Just be truthful. That’s all I ask.

Got proof to back that up? And I don’t mean just browsing the job offers available. Everyone I know makes a killing so as far as I’m concerned my circle of docs are making above the quoted average. Data are averages, so the high earners will bring up the average. What source would you suggest they quote instead?

 

[air bud]

You guys are all making killer points, but way over-thinking this...

No matter what pod scholarships or class rank or residency or fellowship or job: get a high income partner (same or higher than the avg pod 200k or whatever it actually is now).

Even the hospital pod money won't support a family too well, and they risk burnout or major income loss if job gap/change. There's also the pitfall that many spouses dont love rural Montana or Nebraska. The $220k VA pod jobs and $175k associate or supergroup gigs are easier to get, but they sure don't move the needle much after tax and loan pays.

In order to win a rough game with low ROI, gotta find the hacks... cheat code.

Strong disagree....not trying to say you need to have a trad wife who makes sourdough and has chickens.... but if you have kids one person needs to spend significantly more time at home. A high income partner and you being a doctor is fine if you want a DINK lifestyle like Feli....but if you have a family...

 

[Dermato Fight Club]

My wife works from home making 200k+ and I had my tuition paid for by my future employer (dad)

She’s also hot and a great cook and has chickens.

Up up down down left right left right B A B A select start x 2

 

[air bud]

You guys are all making killer points, but way over-thinking this...

No matter what pod scholarships or class rank or residency or fellowship or job: get a high income partner (same or higher than the avg pod 200k or whatever it actually is now).

Even the hospital pod money won't support a family too well, and they risk burnout or major income loss if job gap/change. There's also the pitfall that many spouses dont love rural Montana or Nebraska. The $220k VA pod jobs and $175k associate or supergroup gigs are easier to get, but they sure don't move the needle much after tax and loan pays.

In order to win a rough game with low ROI, gotta find the hacks... cheat code.

Also, rural Montana or Nebraska....that only works if one person stays home or has online biz. Not having family nearby to helps makes things much harder. For sure a lot of the associate abuse is able to continued because people are desperate to live in a specific location or near family, especially in this economy with cost of childcare etc....lord help you if also a super saturated pod area (narrator: all big cities are).

Me being geographically open and willing to move away from family has made things harder in life but easier for finding jobs.

 

[Feli]

My wife works from home making 200k+ and I had my tuition paid for by my future employer (dad)

She’s also hot and a great cook and has chickens.

Up up down down left right left right B A B A select start x 2

Yes, work from home rich = easy mode.

 

[Feli]

Strong disagree....not trying to say you need to have a trad wife who makes sourdough and has chickens.... but if you have kids one person needs to spend significantly more time at home. A high income partner and you being a doctor is fine if you want a DINK lifestyle like Feli....but if you have a family...

Ya but you have movie star good looks to charm women to rural podiatry riches.

Not all of us do foot surgery like Sig Hansen and look like Jason Statham and sing like Jason Aldean.

 

[Sendin_Toes_2market]

Got proof to back that up? And I don’t mean just browsing the job offers available. Everyone I know makes a killing so as far as I’m concerned my circle of docs are making above the quoted average. Data are averages, so the high earners will bring up the average. What source would you suggest they quote instead?

What is the geographical area? Majority of Docs are in suburbs of major metros not making that. I am in hills have eyes no where USA doing well. I do think most pods make around 250 a few years out.

 

[AttackNME]

What is the geographical area? Majority of Docs are in suburbs of major metros not making that. I am in hills have eyes no where USA doing well. I do think most pods make around 250 a few years out.

Well if everyone is saying the website is being deceitful, let’s consider that carefully. How can you prove it? It’s not like they made it up. Why don’t you tell us what source they should use instead? Or if a single source is not a fair representation, then which and how many sources? Should we just quote SDN as fair income representation for all 18,000 podiatrists in the USA? By the way, if most podiatrists are in private practice, how would their sensitive financial data be known unless it’s self reported? And even if we take a survey, you cant completely trust the data, we cant force everyone to confirm with paystubs. You all think you know what podiatrists make based on your friends and job postings? How about all the jobs that are not posted and obtained through word of mouth or other platforms? I know several making 300k fresh out of residency and fellowship because they worked hard. I know several making more than half mil, but their income is not represented. The BLS website does not capture private practice income accurately. Why should it be used to represent podiatry income to prospective students then?

 

[Sendin_Toes_2market]

Well if everyone is saying the website is being deceitful, let’s consider that carefully. How can you prove it? It’s not like they made it up. Why don’t you tell us what source they should use instead? Or if a single source is not a fair representation, then which and how many sources? Should we just quote SDN as fair income representation for all 18,000 podiatrists in the USA? By the way, if most podiatrists are in private practice, how would their sensitive financial data be known unless it’s self reported? And even if we take a survey, you cant completely trust the data, we cant force everyone to confirm with paystubs. You all think you know what podiatrists make based on your friends and job postings? How about all the jobs that are not posted and obtained through word of mouth or other platforms? I know several making 300k fresh out of residency and fellowship because they worked hard. I know several making more than half mil, but their income is not represented. The BLS website does not capture private practice income accurately. Why should it be used to represent podiatry income to prospective students then?

Most pods are private practice.

 

[shadesofgrey]

Let me ask you this. What should be the absolute minimum for a podiatry student? We know Gpa and MCAT isn’t the end all be all, but we have to balance opportunity vs financial risk. But if you were the president of CPME what would be your cap and why? What data have you considered to support your opinion?

I'm not sure and am open to suggestions. However, I stand by my statement that we should reduce the number of podiatry matriculants due to the oversupply of practicing pods. Perhaps you could share your opinion on how many new pods do we need each year?

Well if everyone is saying the website is being deceitful, let’s consider that carefully. How can you prove it? It’s not like they made it up. Why don’t you tell us what source they should use instead? Or if a single source is not a fair representation, then which and how many sources? Should we just quote SDN as fair income representation for all 18,000 podiatrists in the USA? By the way, if most podiatrists are in private practice, how would their sensitive financial data be known unless it’s self reported? And even if we take a survey, you cant completely trust the data, we cant force everyone to confirm with paystubs. You all think you know what podiatrists make based on your friends and job postings? How about all the jobs that are not posted and obtained through word of mouth or other platforms? I know several making 300k fresh out of residency and fellowship because they worked hard. I know several making more than half mil, but their income is not represented. The BLS website does not capture private practice income accurately. Why should it be used to represent podiatry income to prospective students then?

I can grant BLS is not accurate, but I'm not sure how good zip recruiter is at providing accurate podiatry salary either. I don't believe there is currently a adequate source for PP associate reimbursement, which is where most new pods are going to end up. If the APMA wants to quiet SDN, a well done study showing outcomes for debt/salary/practice models for new providers may go a long way, even though it is self reported data. Until then I think we can all agree most of the murmurings on this website are anecdotal. You have your experience seeing several pods making 300k fresh out of residency. I have my experience, where my group practice recently had numerous applicants while offering what I would consider a embarrassingly low associate salary (I argued against this...).

 

[Bored Snorlax]

I'm not sure and am open to suggestions. However, I stand by my statement that we should reduce the number of podiatry matriculants due to the oversupply of practicing pods. Perhaps you could share your opinion on how many new pods do we need each year?



I can grant BLS is not accurate, but I'm not sure how good zip recruiter is at providing accurate podiatry salary either. I don't believe there is currently a adequate source for PP associate reimbursement, which is where most new pods are going to end up. If the APMA wants to quiet SDN, a well done study showing outcomes for debt/salary/practice models for new providers may go a long way, even though it is self reported data. Until then I think we can all agree most of the murmurings on this website are anecdotal. You have your experience seeing several pods making 300k fresh out of residency. I have my experience, where my group practice recently had numerous applicants while offering what I would consider a embarrassingly low associate salary (I argued against this...).

BLS uses national surveys, which often miss PP data and tend to underreport income. It also reports median, not average income. ZipRecruiter pulls from job ads, which can overinflate salaries since the numbers aren’t verified and are often used for marketing. Just because someone posts a podiatry job at $500K doesn’t mean that’s what they actually pay. I reckon the real number is somewhere in between. IMO neither really shows what new grads make.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Just to comment on this guaranteed surgeon thing.

I'm a DO. Everyone I graduated with who wanted to match in general surgery matched. They did all the hard work needed (kiss a**, research, away rotations). I know a couple of their scores, and it was NOT 240/250+. As an MD, you will likely match without any of the above. It's not a walk in the park, but this isn't derm/ophtho/ortho. If you wanted to be a surgeon, it's not a herculean task as an MD or even a DO.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

I said this before and I will say it again. I work in a state that is not on the top of anyone's list in terms of great places to live. The hospital system has smaller community hospitals all throughout this state. Every single small community hospital is staffed with 1-2 hospital employed podiatrists. There are even private practice DPMs near these locations too. One community hospital services a town of 40,000 people and now has 4 DPMs on staff.

There are probably still some areas of the US where there is still opportunity to fill positions where they do not have a podiatrist but those too will be obsolete soon.

This is all you need to know about the current state of podiatry.

The training is the best its ever been but there are no jobs that make up for that time and dedication you spent. Going into insurmountable debt you can never pay off.

Schools need to decrease tuition. We need to graduate less DPMs per year from residency. We need to re-create some kind of demand for our services. There is no demand. There are hundreds of applications for every hospital job that gets posted throughout the USA. Most podiatrists work in PRIVATE PRACTICE.

PRIVATE EQUITY SUPERGROUPS are now the norm with certain entities buying private practice groups left and right. Leadership are founders of some of these private equity groups.

PA and nursing are the most flexible options if you can not get into MD/DO. You can continue to grow into those positions to make more and more money throughout. You can job jump looking for better pay and live wherever you want in the USA. You can even do traveling positions which can make you more money. This kind of demand and flexibility does not exist in podiatry.

 

[MicroPod]

The only downside to PA and nursing/NP is there is much lower income potential. Everything else is better though. I think CRNA is probably the best in terms of income, flexibility and time to start practicing.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

Just to comment on this guaranteed surgeon thing.

I'm a DO. Everyone I graduated with who wanted to match in general surgery matched. They did all the hard work needed (kiss a**, research, away rotations). I know a couple of their scores, and it was NOT 240/250+. As an MD, you will likely match without any of the above. It's not a walk in the park, but this isn't derm/ophtho/ortho. If you wanted to be a surgeon, it's not a herculean task as an MD or even a DO.

A year old, but it’s not a certainty. Good on your classmates. Best chance overall is OB, and that’s still a 14% chance of being cooked as a MD. Nearly 1 in 5 MD gen surg applicants didn’t get in. Ophtho and urology are separate from the graph but worse. That’s why I don’t discount the “I have to be a surgeon” argument as legitimate in a vacuum.

I think you’re IM? What are the usual hospitalist and PCP offers looking like? I doubt they’re any worse than a starting eye gig, but also lower ceiling.

 

[Prehealth1011]

I think you’re IM? What are the usual hospitalist and PCP offers looking like? I doubt they’re any worse than a starting eye gig, but also lower ceiling.

275-300k starting where I am. If you're in the Midwest, you can start at 330-350k for a non-crappy non-night job. Academic IM is 200-250k in most places.

The popular 3-year IM fellowships all start at around 500k give or take, which I guess would be the Ophthalmology equivalent? Being a DO, I never really looked into ophtho/urology salaries to save myself the time and energy.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

275-300k starting where I am. If you're in the Midwest, you can start at 330-350k for a non-crappy non-night job. Academic IM is 200-250k in most places.

The popular 3-year IM fellowships all start at around 500k give or take, which I guess would be the Ophthalmology equivalent? Being a DO, I never really looked into ophtho/urology salaries to save myself the time and energy.

General starts at the first set of numbers and can catch the fellowships within 2-5 years. Depending on the eye fellowship, closer to the IM fellows and catching/passing in 2-5 years.

If it makes anybody feel better, I’ve heard of a prominent academic place that gives retina and plastics docs (6 years postgrad) a base of around $100k with an unfavorable bonus structure because academic hospitals are inefficient and have high overhead.

When I was talking to some similar places out of training, I found it pretty helpful/interesting to look up the publicly reported pay of faculty at public universities…

 

[Feli]

I said this before and I will say it again. I work in a state that is not on the top of anyone's list in terms of great places to live. The hospital system has smaller community hospitals all throughout this state. Every single small community hospital is staffed with 1-2 hospital employed podiatrists. There are even private practice DPMs near these locations too. One community hospital services a town of 40,000 people and now has 4 DPMs on staff.

There are probably still some areas of the US where there is still opportunity to fill positions where they do not have a podiatrist but those too will be obsolete soon.

This is all you need to know about the current state of podiatry.

The training is the best its ever been but there are no jobs that make up for that time and dedication you spent. Going into insurmountable debt you can never pay off.

Schools need to decrease tuition. We need to graduate less DPMs per year from residency. We need to re-create some kind of demand for our services. There is no demand. There are hundreds of applications for every hospital job that gets posted throughout the USA. Most podiatrists work in PRIVATE PRACTICE.

PRIVATE EQUITY SUPERGROUPS are now the norm with certain entities buying private practice groups left and right. Leadership are founders of some of these private equity groups.

PA and nursing are the most flexible options if you can not get into MD/DO. You can continue to grow into those positions to make more and more money throughout. You can job jump looking for better pay and live wherever you want in the USA. You can even do traveling positions which can make you more money. This kind of demand and flexibility does not exist in podiatry.

This post is solid gold. ^^

We are basically heading from bad : underpaid relative to any MD/DO specialist at rural and CAH and VA/IHS... or doing PP work.
And now, we move to worse : PE/VC groups running much of the show. They know we are saturated and have no negotiating power... and they'll take full advantage a la Walgreens and CVS and Walmart did with the glut of PharmD grads. For non-VC PPs, they will be fairly hard (but possible) to compete with. It will not be pretty.
Oh, and of course tuition goes up 5% or more annually like clockwork while MCR pays basically unchanged rates also. So, there's that.

...Anything from lakefront property to fine art to old baseball cards to urologists to high level computer programmers are valuable because they are relatively scarce. There is limited supply.
That is just not the case for podiatry... even fellowship trained, hard-working, good skills, able to find the money to start or buy a PP, etc are severely limited. Too many is just too many.

 

[Feli]

The only downside to PA and nursing/NP is there is much lower income potential. Everything else is better though. I think CRNA is probably the best in terms of income, flexibility and time to start practicing.

You might want to talk to the locums RNs and others at your hospital more?

Their ROI is infinitely better than DPM (typically now $300-400k debt for $150-200k job... so 2:1 debt : income is probably median, maybe 1:1 for tip top grad jobs... but 3:1 or even 4:1 for more other grad DPMs who take crummy jobs and/or borrowed more?).

Even a normal clinic or medsurg or long term associate degree RN nurse trounces us on ROI (their edu cost roughly $30k total for $60k+ jobs... 1:2 return, often better).
A critical care (ER/ICU) nurse beats us more handily.
If they pick up some overtime or do locums or work eve/night/weekends or take call (surgery or crit care mostly) - or do all of those things, then it's a total night and day ROI.
That is not even to mention the pay upticks for RNs doing supervisor, admin roles, two jobs... or hospital paid masters or NP or CRNA tuition increasing ROI even further.

Regardless of what the RN does, they get a good paying job and can be out of debt in a year or two if they want to be. No chance of that in podiatry... student loans usually fester at least a decade. Their nurse student loan interest while in school is negligible as school is short (and no residency interest to pay or have piling up either). I'd recommend RN to any high schooler, etc who's reasonably interested. It's all about ROI with today's insane tuition inflation and high rates on those loans.

One could seriously go to the most expensive private nursing college and take a very average job afterwards... and would still do better on ROI than any DPM who paid full tuition and got a fairly good podiatry job (above avg pay).

 

[MicroPod]

You might want to talk to the locums RNs and others at your hospital more?

Their ROI is infinitely better than DPM (typically now $300-400k debt for $150-200k job... so 2:1 debt : income is probably median, maybe 1:1 for tip top grad jobs... but 3:1 or even 4:1 for more other grad DPMs who take crummy jobs and/or borrowed more?).

Even a normal clinic or medsurg or long term associate degree RN nurse trounces us on ROI (their edu cost roughly $30k total for $60k+ jobs... 1:2 return, often better).
A critical care (ER/ICU) nurse beats us more handily.
If they pick up some overtime or do locums or work eve/night/weekends or take call (surgery or crit care mostly) - or do all of those things, then it's a total night and day ROI.
That is not even to mention the pay upticks for RNs doing supervisor, admin roles, two jobs... or hospital paid masters or NP or CRNA tuition increasing ROI even further.

Regardless of what the RN does, they get a good paying job and can be out of debt in a year or two if they want to be. No chance of that in podiatry... student loans usually fester at least a decade. Their nurse student loan interest while in school is negligible as school is short (and no residency interest to pay or have piling up either). I'd recommend RN to any high schooler, etc who's reasonably interested. It's all about ROI with today's insane tuition inflation and high rates on those loans.

One could seriously go to the most expensive private nursing college and take a very average job afterwards... and would still do better on ROI than any DPM who paid full tuition and got a fairly good podiatry job (above avg pay).

Like I said basically everything is better other than income potential. The ROI is probably the worst across anything medical

 

[Homo sapien]

The point is to compare income potential with realistic applicant competitiveness. Someone who has no chance of getting into MD/DO and uses podiatry to have a shot at surgery would have access to opportunity, but are likely to end up at the bottom range of podiatrist income and probably do limited or no surgery. Someone who has a competitive but average application for MD/DO can decide to compete for specialties where they’re average, or they can compete amongst podiatrists in a pool where they’re likely to be above average or top of class for test scores and work ethic. Those candidates are more likely to access the ceiling of podiatry income, and if you compare that to the average income or the floor of MD/DO income… you get the picture.

Btw I got scholarship for half tuition off my first year because of my competitive application. That wasn’t gonna happen if I went MD/DO

Oh yes 1 year of half tuition...makes up for everything else. Come on. That little scholarship doesn't negate the overall financial pitfalls