Discrepancy in residencies...

[Chickenandwaffles]

So I have been looking at the salary and benefits that my residency program has compared to others. Why is there such a large discrepancy between some programs? For example, our program only gives 2! weeks vacations the first year, vs. 3 + for most others. The salary is also 48K! which is incredibly low, even for the state. In programs a few hours away, same specialty, same state, the salary discrepancy is over 7k, and the vacation times are much higher. Why is that?

Should there not be some equivalency in salaries and benefits?

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[secants]

There usually is within a hospital for all their GME programs but every hospital has a different setup. Usually the best setups were where the residents had a "union".

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

There usually is within a hospital for all their GME programs but every hospital has a different setup. Usually the best setups were where the residents had a "union".

I know that, but there are vast discrepancies. So certain hospitals just think it's ok to abuse residents more than others, is that what it boils down to?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This is no different from the private sector. Each employer can choose their own salary / benefits / work schedules. You can choose to work there or not. If you don't like the set up at your program, you could have considered working elsewhere. Programs must disclose their salary / benefits during the interview process, so it shouldn't be a surprise. Standardizing pay scales between different programs is illegal -- it's an anti-trust issue. Two employers can't agree on a pay scale.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

This is no different from the private sector. Each employer can choose their own salary / benefits / work schedules. You can choose to work there or not. If you don't like the set up at your program, you could have considered working elsewhere. Programs must disclose their salary / benefits during the interview process, so it shouldn't be a surprise. Standardizing pay scales between different programs is illegal -- it's an anti-trust issue. Two employers can't agree on a pay scale.

I understand what you are saying but i guess I don't understand why one program would choose to pay much more than another or provide more benefits/vacation than another. One hospital is *cheap* compared to the other? The other hospital values its residents more? Do they want to keep more of the medicare money? From a PD/hospital perspective, I guess I don't get this.

 

[Makati2008]

This is no different from the private sector. Each employer can choose their own salary / benefits / work schedules. You can choose to work there or not. If you don't like the set up at your program, you could have considered working elsewhere. Programs must disclose their salary / benefits during the interview process, so it shouldn't be a surprise. Standardizing pay scales between different programs is illegal -- it's an anti-trust issue. Two employers can't agree on a pay scale.

I will say some osteopathic programs skirt by without mentioning this.

 

[cheruka]

This is no different from the private sector. Each employer can choose their own salary / benefits / work schedules. You can choose to work there or not. If you don't like the set up at your program, you could have considered working elsewhere. Programs must disclose their salary / benefits during the interview process, so it shouldn't be a surprise. Standardizing pay scales between different programs is illegal -- it's an anti-trust issue. Two employers can't agree on a pay scale.

I don't agree with this- residency is nothing like private sector. It is very convenient to say it is like private sector when it comes to stipends/salaried and yet not follow the rest of the rules private sector does. Most residents only have finite number of options where they can work. Even that if they do not venture outside the pipeline.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I understand what you are saying but i guess I don't understand why one program would choose to pay much more than another or provide more benefits/vacation than another. One hospital is *cheap* compared to the other? The other hospital values its residents more? Do they want to keep more of the medicare money? From a PD/hospital perspective, I guess I don't get this.

Any or all of the above. I guess the point is, they offer that salary, and people take it.

I don't agree with this- residency is nothing like private sector. It is very convenient to say it is like private sector when it comes to stipends/salaried and yet not follow the rest of the rules private sector does. Most residents only have finite number of options where they can work. Even that if they do not venture outside the pipeline.

I agree there are many differences between residency programs and private sector jobs. But I don't see the issue with salary. You know exactly what the salary is at a program before you match there (or get a position outside the match). You are welcome to obtain other offers, or rank programs with higher salaries higher on your rank list. So you have complete control over the balance between the salary offered and the position.

Please note that this does not suggest that I think resident salaries are "correct". I'm simply saying that students matching into residencies know what their salary will be, and can try to obtain the largest salary possible if they would like. Whether all resident salaries are too low is a much bigger conversation.

 

[loltopsy]

This is no different from the private sector. ... Standardizing pay scales between different programs is illegal -- it's an anti-trust issue. Two employers can't agree on a pay scale.

It's quite legal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Resident_Matching_Program#Controversy_.26_Lawsuits

You also don't have a choice. If you want to become a real doctor, you need to complete a residency, and pay for residents is far below competitive levels.

Also, just because you know you're getting ****ed before it happens doesn't make it right or fair.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

It's quite legal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Resident_Matching_Program#Controversy_.26_Lawsuits

You also don't have a choice. If you want to become a real doctor, you need to complete a residency, and pay for residents is far below competitive levels.

Also, just because you know you're getting ****ed before it happens doesn't make it right or fair.

This is true. I mean it's not like I can say hey this salary is too low. I matched here, let's negotiate an appropriate salary. I agree it's essential to have a physician, not specialty, union, where our rights are protected. Nurses have it. Why don't we?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

This is no different from the private sector. Each employer can choose their own salary / benefits / work schedules. You can choose to work there or not. If you don't like the set up at your program, you could have considered working elsewhere. Programs must disclose their salary / benefits during the interview process, so it shouldn't be a surprise. Standardizing pay scales between different programs is illegal -- it's an anti-trust issue. Two employers can't agree on a pay scale.

Right...but I'd never advise an applicant to make their rank list based on salary differences unless there were some extreme circumstances.

Even at the extremes you're talking about making 10k less per year over a 3 year period. The differences in salary are going to be pocket change in the long run, so you should go to the program that will offer you the best prospects for the future (either via fellowship or job prospects)

As you say, whether residents as a whole are underpaid is an entirely separate conversation. I just think the relatively minor variations in salary between programs are not worth getting upset about.

 

[Law2Doc]

Costs aren't uniform across hospitals . You might be getting less because the med mal insurance in your region is higher, or other aspects of GME overhead are higher. Some places pay more due to cost of living -- eg the manhattan residencies might pay more than the jersey ones because living in and commuting to the city just costs more. No rule that says it should be the same nationally, just as there's no expectation that the costs incurred by your program in running a residency will be the same.

They generally are pretty explicit as to what the salary and vacation structure are when you apply. If it's a deal breaker don't rank them highly. You signed on for this.

 

[deleted480308]

I know that, but there are vast discrepancies. So certain hospitals just think it's ok to abuse residents more than others, is that what it boils down to?

So offering a clear and pre-stated amount of money for a job that someone voluntarily applies to, interviews for, and then ranks is now abuse? You have a very different definition of that word than the rest of the world

 

[ThoracicGuy]

This is true. I mean it's not like I can say hey this salary is too low. I matched here, let's negotiate an appropriate salary. I agree it's essential to have a physician, not specialty, union, where our rights are protected. Nurses have it. Why don't we?

Why would the hospitals have any desire to negotiate potentially hundreds of salaries each year? How would you deal with John negotiated a salary of $80,000 where Mike negotiated one of $120,000, but Alan only was able to negotiate $60,000 for the same position. That wouldn't work too well.

As a resident, you are working, but you are also in a student role. Most non-medical jobs are not like this.

And no, a union is not a good answer.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

So offering a clear and pre-stated amount of money for a job that someone voluntarily applies to, interviews for, and then ranks is now abuse? You have a very different definition of that word than the rest of the world

Few hospitals actually publish accurate information on interview day of the salaries they provide, and paying sub-par salaries is ethically, morally and probably legally wrong. Just like businesses can't pay someone 3 bucks even if they advertise it because it's against the law, neither should programs. I can guarantee you that a significant number of programs pay residents less than mininum wage given how much they work.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Costs aren't uniform across hospitals . You might be getting less because the med mal insurance in your region is higher, or other aspects of GME overhead are higher. Some places pay more due to cost of living -- eg the manhattan residencies might pay more than the jersey ones because living in and commuting to the city just costs more. No rule that says it should be the same nationally, just as there's no expectation that the costs incurred by your program in running a residency will be the same.

They generally are pretty explicit as to what the salary and vacation structure are when you apply. If it's a deal breaker don't rank them highly. You signed on for this.

why would some programs within the same state pay close to 8k less than neighboring programs in the same specialty , with nearly identical costs of living? That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around. I am pretty sure that the costs are pretty much the smae given it's the same specialty, in the same state, with nearly identical # of residents.

 

[2010houston]

Every single hospital I interviewed at provided sample contracts with salaries, and the information was accurate. There was also info on vacation weeks, benefits, etc. In fact, most places even had you sign that you had received this info, and provided multiple contact points if you had any questions regarding salary and benefits. Was this not your experience? The program is not devaluing you by paying you slightly less than residents in a different hospital- different costs, different administrators, different pay structures will lead to slightly different annual income.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Every single hospital I interviewed at provided sample contracts with salaries, and the information was accurate. There was also info on vacation weeks, benefits, etc. In fact, most places even had you sign that you had received this info, and provided multiple contact points if you had any questions regarding salary and benefits. Was this not your experience? The program is not devaluing you by paying you slightly less than residents in a different hospital- different costs, different administrators, different pay structures will lead to slightly different annual income.

I don't think 8k is "slightly different."

 

[2010houston]

But if you don't think it's slightly different, don't rank that program. Or don't even apply; most salaries are listed online or on FREIDA. While $8K is not insubstantial, it's also -- in my opinion -- not something worth basing your training decision on. But if you think it is, then rank accordingly.

The residents' pay structure is decided by some suit in HR at each of these hospitals. It's something that the program directors likely don't even have all that much input in. While I agree it's frustrating, different places pay different amounts. It just doesn't seem worth getting so upset over.

 

[deleted480308]

Few hospitals actually publish accurate information on interview day of the salaries they provide, and paying sub-par salaries is ethically, morally and probably legally wrong. Just like businesses can't pay someone 3 bucks even if they advertise it because it's against the law, neither should programs. I can guarantee you that a significant number of programs pay residents less than mininum wage given how much they work.

name 1 hospital that refused to release salary data by ranking deadline....besides the fact that you could choose to not rank them for withholding, I don't believe it happened

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

name 1 hospital that refused to release salary data by ranking deadline....besides the fact that you could choose to not rank them for withholding, I don't believe it happened

I'm not going to name hospitals specifically, but many hospitals don't provide updated info on salaries or benefits, and some pretty big, prestigious places don't put in their salary info at all. I can think of one particular prestigious Baltimore hospital that did that, and where I could not even find that info later on their website. Did I rank that program? You betcha.

But there should not be tremendous differences in salaries among hospitals within the same state. I realize the South for example will pay less than say NY or PA where cost of living is much higher. But I can think of several places in Tx where there is a *vast* difference in salaries across hospitals, which shouldn't be. My opinion, you don't have to agree with it.

 

[IMPD]

Just read through the first 20 comments on the Slate article. Makes SDN look pretty good!

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Just read through the first 20 comments on the Slate article. Makes SDN look pretty good!

Well education is key - education of patients that is.

When my hair colorist who graduated from high school, and did a 2 year course to become a hair colorist, who doesn't understand the difference between radiologists and techs, or between NPs and doctors, makes more than me, there is a problem. When my colleague's babysitter makes more than us, again, there is a problem.

You do realize patients think we make hundreds of thousands of dollars, don't you?

I once had one of our social workers, who are notoriously paid crap, tell me, I think it's sad how little you guys get paid.

I can guarantee you patients would feel similarly if they were informed.

 

[deleted480308]

I'm not going to name hospitals specifically, but many hospitals don't provide updated info on salaries or benefits, and some pretty big, prestigious places don't put in their salary info at all. I can think of one particular prestigious Baltimore hospital that did that, and where I could not even find that info later on their website. Did I rank that program? You betcha.

But there should not be tremendous differences in salaries among hospitals within the same state. I realize the South for example will pay less than say NY or PA where cost of living is much higher. But I can think of several places in Tx where there is a *vast* difference in salaries across hospitals, which shouldn't be. My opinion, you don't have to agree with it.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/residency/benefits/

http://www.lifebridgehealth.org/Sinai/SinaiResidentBenefits4.aspx

I'm not sure if there is a more prestigious hopsital in baltimore, but this took 45 seconds on google

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/residency/benefits/

http://www.lifebridgehealth.org/Sinai/SinaiResidentBenefits4.aspx

I'm not sure if there is a more prestigious hopsital in baltimore, but this took 45 seconds on google

That's ED, I didn't apply for ED. Like I said, you don't have to agree with me. If you think that sub-50k is ok, that's your choice. I don't think that's cool for one, and for two, I think pay should be much higher in residency.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm not going to name hospitals specifically, but many hospitals don't provide updated info on salaries or benefits, and some pretty big, prestigious places don't put in their salary info at all. I can think of one particular prestigious Baltimore hospital that did that, and where I could not even find that info later on their website. Did I rank that program? You betcha.

Like others have said, every program gives you a copy of the contract to review. It's a requirement. If they didn't give it to you, you should have asked the program coordinator.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Few hospitals actually publish accurate information on interview day of the salaries they provide, and paying sub-par salaries is ethically, morally and probably legally wrong. Just like businesses can't pay someone 3 bucks even if they advertise it because it's against the law, neither should programs. I can guarantee you that a significant number of programs pay residents less than mininum wage given how much they work.

When I applied for residency, every place that I saw (about 20 of them) gave out their current salaries with the acknowledgment that it would likely go up the next year.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

That's ED, I didn't apply for ED. Like I said, you don't have to agree with me. If you think that sub-50k is ok, that's your choice. I don't think that's cool for one, and for two, I think pay should be much higher in residency.

Found it after about 2 minutes search:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/gme/GME_Policies/BenefitsResidents-VacationStipends-2014-2015.pdf

You do realize that all residencies at the institution pay the same, right?

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Found it after about 2 minutes search:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/gme/GME_Policies/BenefitsResidents-VacationStipends-2014-2015.pdf

You do realize that all residencies at the institution pay the same, right?

Again that information was not provided to me, and to the specialty that I applied, it's not listed on the site. Further even on that page you provided the link to, it says something nebulous about vacation-it says it's 2weeks to one month per PD. Can they make it any less clear?!

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Further even on that page you provided the link to, it says something nebulous about vacation-it says it's 2weeks to one month per PD. Can they make it any less clear?!

2-4 weeks, on a program by program basis, doesn't seem that unclear to me...

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

2-4 weeks, on a program by program basis, doesn't seem that unclear to me...

I think it's pretty vague. It's like saying programs may pay you, per PD's discretion. It doesn't state what many of us would like to know. It's fine if you are ok with crappy wages and no personal time, sorry that some of us have a life outside of medicine too.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I think it's pretty vague. It's like saying programs may pay you, per PD's discretion. It doesn't state what many of us would like to know. It's fine if you are ok with crappy wages and no personal time, sorry that some of us have a life outside of medicine too.

My point was that you continue to make mountains out of molehills. Just like in your chief resident thread and...well...every thread you've started about residency.

First of all, as I said before, I'm calling BS. Every program I interviewed at (including the "prestigious" baltimore area program) gave a copy of the resident contract, with salary and benefits included. It's a requirement from the ACGME that they provide you this.

If they didn't provide you this information, and it was so important to you, you should have asked. Instead of whining about the programs not giving it to you, try taking one iota of personal responsibility and find out for yourself. As others have shown, the information you complained about being hidden from you was available in a one minute google search.

Others in this thread have well articulated some of the many reasons for variations in residents' salaries from market to market. As aPD mentioned - this is a completely separate conversation from the question of how well residents are compensated as a whole. The minor variations from place to place are not a big deal in the scheme of things and do not indicate that one program is "ripping off" residents.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

My point was that you continue to make mountains out of molehills. Just like in your chief resident thread and...well...every thread you've started about residency.

First of all, as I said before, I'm calling BS. Every program I interviewed at (including the "prestigious" baltimore area program) gave a copy of the resident contract, with salary and benefits included. It's a requirement from the ACGME that they provide you this.

If they didn't provide you this information, and it was so important to you, you should have asked. Instead of whining about the programs not giving it to you, try taking one iota of personal responsibility and find out for yourself. As others have shown, the information you complained about being hidden from you was available in a one minute google search.

Others in this thread have well articulated some of the many reasons for variations in residents' salaries from market to market. As aPD mentioned - this is a completely separate conversation from the question of how well residents are compensated as a whole. The minor variations from place to place are not a big deal in the scheme of things and do not indicate that one program is "ripping off" residents.

We disagree. And perhaps it would make sense that you respect my views, even if you disagree with them. I can guarantee you that more people feel like me than you regarding salary. I think the program I matched into will make me rather competitive for what I want to do ultimately, yes absolutely. Where there programs with better salaries and benefits that would have made me less competitive? Yes, certainly. But that does not mean that I don't have a right to feel annoyed/frustrated that I'm getting ripped off. I was making more or the same when I did my internship. I don't think it's right. Those are my views. No one is forcing you to agree with them, this is what I think.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

It's rather humorous that you implore me to approach the conversation with more respect when you lead off with gems like this:

It's fine if you are ok with crappy wages and no personal time, sorry that some of us have a life outside of medicine too.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

It's rather humorous that you implore me to approach the conversation with more respect when you lead off with gems like this:

I didn't implore, I simply stated that you should respect my views. I'm not sure how my statement was inappropriate in any way shape or form?
It's very simple. I'm not ok with crappy resident salaries, you seem to be. I'm not ok with crappy personal time at some programs, you seem to be. I have a number of personal interests outside of medicine. If you are ok with something like no personal time, then it leads me to believe that your main focus is medicine, which is not uncommon for many doctors. Many doctors have no life outside of medicine, and wouldn't know what to do with their personal time. I would assume that if you have others interests outside of a medical career you would be more perturbed with crappy personal time.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

It's very simple. I'm not ok with crappy resident salaries, you seem to be. I'm not ok with crappy personal time at some programs, you seem to be. I have a number of personal interests outside of medicine. If you are ok with something like no personal time, then it leads me to believe that your main focus is medicine, which is not uncommon for many doctors. Many doctors have no life outside of medicine, and wouldn't know what to do with their personal time. I would assume that if you have others interests outside of a medical career you would be more perturbed with crappy personal time.

Kindly point out ONE time where I have said any of the above bolded things.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

A specialty's RRC sets the max and min amount of vacation time allowed per year, but I have never heard of programs which allow only two weeks.

Just as residency hours have improved, so has pay. When my dad was an intern and I was a baby, we lived on $9000/yr. Their bank balance was frequently in the single digits by the end of the month and they lived *extremely* frugally. He told me very sad stories about how all of the interns would stalk the comatose/demented/moribund patients on their list and steal their untouched dinner trays, since they couldn't afford cafeteria meals. When I can along my parents met federal qualifications for food stamps and WIC.

Resident salaries have grown by over 40%, adjusted for inflation. Hours have diminished by 30%. And let's not forget that the average gross income for a family of four in the US is $50k (here in Los Angeles it's $37k), which residents meet handily on their own. It's hardly poverty wages.

I agree though, the discrepancies are interesting. My situation for example- Dallas is a much cheaper city than Seattle, COL-wise. But my incoming PGY-1 salary is higher than a PGY-3 salary at UW. Both are public institutions too.

Everywhere in Manhattan is expensive to live, but only NYU pays really handsome salaries. When I interviewed 5 years ago now, the PGY-1 salary was $71,000, but Columbia paid $52,000. Did NYU think this would give them a competitive edge over arguably more prestigious programs?

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Kindly point out ONE time where I have said any of the above bolded things.

You didn't state it explicitly, but you are not bothered by it per your posts. To me, for example, 2-4 weeks of vacation makes a BIG difference. It's a difference of 2 weeks. It does not bother you for example. Why does it bother me? Well because while I like being a doctor and taking care of people and making a difference, I also love spending time with my spouse, my dog, my business, going to the spa, cooking, spending time with family, working out, and a myriad of other things.

You have also made excuses/explanations as to *why* our salaries are so low. Why does it bother me? Because a crappy salary implies limitations on life and what I can and cannot do. You at no point expressed frustration, dislike, discontent, etc at our salaries. Like Thoracic guy, you portray the idea of, oh it's only a few years and then you'll make big attending bucks.

Again you are entirely entitled to feel that resident salary is ok, and whatever time we get off is fine. No one is arguing that. But you have at no point expressed any time of concern or discontent with salaries and/or time off.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

You didn't state it explicitly, but you are not bothered by it per your posts. To me, for example, 2-4 weeks of vacation makes a BIG difference. It's a difference of 2 weeks. It does not bother you for example. Why does it bother me? Well because while I like being a doctor and taking care of people and making a difference, I also love spending time with my spouse, my dog, my business, going to the spa, cooking, spending time with family, working out, and a myriad of other things.

You have also made excuses/explanations as to *why* our salaries are so low. Why does it bother me? Because a crappy salary implies limitations on life and what I can and cannot do. You at no point expressed frustration, dislike, discontent, etc at our salaries. Like Thoracic guy, you portray the idea of, oh it's only a few years and then you'll make big attending bucks.

Again you are entirely entitled to feel that resident salary is ok, and whatever time we get off is fine. No one is arguing that. But you have at no point expressed any time of concern or discontent with salaries and/or time off.

This entire post is nothing but you putting words in my mouth. And the last line is flat out bull***

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

A specialty's RRC sets the max and min amount of vacation time allowed per year, but I have never heard of programs which allow only two weeks.

Just as residency hours have improved, so has pay. When my dad was an intern and I was a baby, we lived on $9000/yr. Their bank balance was frequently in the single digits by the end of the month and they lived *extremely* frugally. He told me very sad stories about how all of the interns would stalk the comatose/demented/moribund patients on their list and steal their untouched dinner trays, since they couldn't afford cafeteria meals. When I can along my parents met federal qualifications for food stamps and WIC.

Resident salaries have grown by over 40%, adjusted for inflation. Hours have diminished by 30%. And let's not forget that the average gross income for a family of four in the US is $50k (here in Los Angeles it's $37k), which residents meet handily on their own. It's hardly poverty wages.

I agree though, the discrepancies are interesting. My situation for example- Dallas is a much cheaper city than Seattle, COL-wise. But my incoming PGY-1 salary is higher than a PGY-3 salary at UW. Both are public institutions too.

Everywhere in Manhattan is expensive to live, but only NYU pays really handsome salaries. When I interviewed 5 years ago now, the PGY-1 salary was $71,000, but Columbia paid $52,000. Did NYU think this would give them a competitive edge over arguably more prestigious programs?

weeks

Well my current program only has 2 weeks the first year, and a program I interviewed in the past also only allowed 2 weeks time off. I don't think that's appropriate. Some offer 3, some 4, but overall with personal days most programs give 4 weeks off. there is no reason why my program should provide only 2 weeks off, especially since as some of you (not you specifically) suggest that we are so useless (which I clearly disagree with).

For example, LIJ when I interviewed was offering close to 70k a few years ago, my current program pays 48k. I understand that cost of living in Tx is lower than NY, sure. but programs a few hours away are paying close to 56k. When I see people in my same specialty, in the same state, literally hours away making close to 8k more for the same residency, same type of work, I feel ripped off.

And again the whole thing about the household income being 50k is fallacious. That's for the whole country, and includes people who are barely there skill wise. It's not an appropriate comparison. Comparing us to other professionals, with college + grad school, we are getting paid roughly 1/2 of what they make.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

This entire post is nothing but you putting words in my mouth. And the last line is flat out bull***

Well perhaps I missed it, but I certainly did not see you expressing any concern about the issues I mentioned. You even said I was "making a mountain out of a molehill." Am I mistaken?

 

[deleted480308]

Those salaries aren't going to do any dramatic increasing at all because we would still show up if they went down. It's part of the limited supply function of medical school and residency slots...as more of us want in than exists places for us to go, they can do whatever they want to us in terms of pay/benefits. You think I'm buying the $30 burger at restaurant A if I can buy the same burger for $10 next door? nope. And neither are residency directors.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Well perhaps I missed it, but I certainly did not see you expressing any concern about the issues I mentioned. You even said I was "making a mountain out of a molehill." Am I mistaken?

I have mentioned several times that I think there are two completely different arguments here

The first is the argument of whether residents as a whole are underpaid. Which I have not commented on directly in this thread, and my thoughts on which you are completely off about.

The second is the argument of why and whether there is variation between programs on salaries. Which yes, absolutely, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Those salaries aren't going to do any dramatic increasing at all because we would still show up if they went down. It's part of the limited supply function of medical school and residency slots...as more of us want in than exists places for us to go, they can do whatever they want to us in terms of pay/benefits. You think I'm buying the $30 burger at restaurant A if I can buy the same burger for $10 next door? nope. And neither are residency directors.

Your point has already been disproven. Many programs pay more than others without blinking an eye. LIJ pays their residents over 20k more than my program. Programs nearby pay more than my program. this is how it is. I guess the simple explanation is "because they can." I got it.

 

[deleted480308]

Your point has already been disproven. Many programs pay more than others without blinking an eye. LIJ pays their residents over 20k more than my program. Programs nearby pay more than my program. this is how it is. I guess the simple explanation is "because they can." I got it.

My point still works...your example is in one of the most expensive cities in the country. those programs that don't pay more still have tons of applicants and a line of rejected people willing to take spots if someone no-shows. Any program in the country (with the exception of some rough specialites in terms of desirability) could drop their salary by $5k and still have people lining up.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

My point still works...your example is in one of the most expensive cities in the country. those programs that don't pay more still have tons of applicants and a line of rejected people willing to take spots if someone no-shows. Any program in the country (with the exception of some rough specialites in terms of desirability) could drop their salary by $5k and still have people lining up.

Not the point sb247. As I have stated, several programs in the same state, with the same cost of living, as the program I'm in pay about 8k more, which I think is a sizable difference.

I'm sure that if you are starving and you are offered a several day old burger you'll eat it too. Sort of like BlondeDoctour pointed out, her dad ate demented/moribund patient's trays, because they had no choice. Doesnt mean it's right.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

And again the whole thing about the household income being 50k is fallacious. That's for the whole country, and includes people who are barely there skill wise. It's not an appropriate comparison. Comparing us to other professionals, with college + grad school, we are getting paid roughly 1/2 of what they make.

Umm, not true. Starting salaries for public defenders (lawyers) in my state are between 53k-58k. The highest paid public defender makes 112k.

PhD post-docs make in the 30k-40k range after just as much schooling as we have and with a much lower final income ceiling. Yes they have much less debt (often zero), but we still come out better.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Not the point sb247. As I have stated, several programs in the same state, with the same cost of living, as the program I'm in pay about 8k more, which I think is a sizable difference.

I'm sure that if you are starving and you are offered a several day old burger you'll eat it too. Sort of like BlondeDoctour pointed out, her dad ate demented/moribund patient's trays, because they had no choice. Doesnt mean it's right.

Have you inquired about being added to the welfare rolls? You keep going on as if resident salaries are somehow just one step above poverty. Yes, the salary is low now, but again in a very short time it will go much higher than most of the other jobs out there... and that's just the starting salary.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Umm, not true. Starting salaries for public defenders (lawyers) in my state are between 53k-58k. The highest paid public defender makes 112k.

PhD post-docs make in the 30k-40k range after just as much schooling as we have and with a much lower final income ceiling. Yes they have much less debt (often zero), but we still come out better.

MBA's start in the 90k plus, engineers with masters are starting in the 70-80k, those with finance degrees also in the 70k +, not to mention PT/OT/PA/NPs all starting in the 60-80k or so.

Let's not even talk about gigs like consulting where the pay can be in the 100k + the first year after bonus. And law is at an all time low right now for one. Public defenders are and have always been, horribly paid. Lawyers going onto private, associate type positions are being paid in the 80k +.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Have you inquired about being added to the welfare rolls? You keep going on as if resident salaries are somehow just one step above poverty. Yes, the salary is low now, but again in a very short time it will go much higher than most of the other jobs out there... and that's just the starting salary.

No, sadly I don't qualify for welfare, especially since I have a business that's rather profitable and a spouse who also makes 6 figures, and it's just us two. I guess i just feel devalued as a physician given how crappy the salary is. *Sigh*

I'll move on now, but I still think it sucks and our pay should be better.