Discriminated against as a woman physician?

[bustinbooty]

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Just curious what kind of experiences you females have had up to this point as far as how male physicians treat you and in what areas/departments of the hospital. I'm a third year (male) who has always heard that it still happened, but now I'm actually witnessing it now and then.

 

[Megalofyia]

How are you actually witnessing it?

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

The only way I have seen discrimination against women is from nurses, some of whom do not take the female doctors as seriously and from patients who assume the male is the senior doctor. I was on a couple of rotations with a female upper level resident, female attending, female medical students when I was an intern and several times the patients would address me as the head of team. I'd just point out their mistake.

In radiology, I have actually experienced the opposite as both a medical student and a resident. The attendings will often treat the female medical students better, make more eye contact, teach a little more, especailly if they are reasonably attractive.

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by Whisker Barrel Cortex
In radiology, I have actually experienced the opposite as both a medical student and a resident. The attendings will often treat the female medical students better, make more eye contact, teach a little more, especailly if they are reasonably attractive.

A friend of mine in rads said exactly the same thing: a med student (female) had complained about her specifically, and the attending said to my friend, "I don't know how to say this, but, theoretically, when someone is smart AND pretty, this can cause some problems with people around them, especially those in a junior position". This guy stayed until 7pm one night, while he has made a CAREER of leaving at 4:15.

 

[Mirror Form]

Originally posted by Whisker Barrel Cortex
In radiology, I have actually experienced the opposite as both a medical student and a resident. The attendings will often treat the female medical students better, make more eye contact, teach a little more, especailly if they are reasonably attractive.

This isn't just a rads thing, I've seen it in all the inpatient rotations (which is almost all rotations). Attractive female medical students have a serious advantage b/c of all the nerdy male love starved residents that are willing to teach them all sorts of stuff in exchange for the company of a hot girl, even if it's doing a rectal exam on some 99 y/o.

 

[woundvac]

when i am a resident i'm giving all the hot chicks honors and all the dudes pass. deal with it.

 

[Mirror Form]

Originally posted by woundvac
when i am a resident i'm giving all the hot chicks honors and all the dudes pass. deal with it.

Yeah I probably will too.

 

[MD'05]

So far I have seen the same thing ... if the med student is attractive (male or female), the resident / attending (male or female) spends more time teaching. If the med student is average looking, the resident / attending tries to escape. I think it's all about the prospect of a potential sexual encounter. No booty, no teaching ...

 

[md03]

Where I went to med school, (in the SE) the disrespect came mostly from pts. Female med students/residents were called sweetheard, darling, dear, sugar pie, sweat pea...by pts. Pts always assumed we were nurses, even after repeated correction. Sometimes a pt would complain that they hadn't been seen by a doctor for their entire stay, when in fact they had been seen at least daily by female residents.

Now that I'm out of the SE, the disrespect seems to come more from the staff. Pts accept the idea of a female MD easily (I can count on one hand now the number of times I've been called sweetheart in the past 4 months). But the problem is when I return pages...I say, "surgery returning a page" and the answering party often says, "Oh, are they in the OR?" Or I say "Dr X, with surgery, somebody paged me" and they say "Oh is he in the OR?". Not that this program lacks female residents, there is 7-8 of us. The problem is more pronounced at the private hospitals, but even there there are several female surgery attendings.

You would think we would have made more progress by now. Sigh.

 

[Sessamoid]

Originally posted by md03
You would think we would have made more progress by now. Sigh.

Progress will be slow, but steady. While there are a noticeable number of female gen surgery residents now, that wasn't the case until very recently. It's going to take a long time until they become a commonplace sight in the surgical world, so expect the same kind of crap for years to come. Most of these old, outdated views unsurprisingly come from old, outdated staff or old, outdated physicians. Not much you can do about them except be patient and wait for them to retire. 🙂

 

[Smurfette]

As a female student, three thoughts popped into my head while reading this thread:

1. Obviously I am not attractive.
2. Where are all these love-starved residents? I have yet to meet a single resident (i.e. non-married; male OR female) in 4 months. 😛
3. If I introduce myself as a "medical student", patients are far more likely to assume I am a student nurse. Thus, I have started to introduce myself as a "student doctor" (though I hate that term) so as to save me the exasperation of explaining that I am not a nurse and blah blah blah. So far, it's working pretty well, and patients really love to ask questions about med school (good small talk topic!).

 

[MichiMO]

Well, I am only beginning this process, but something that I have noticed:

Since I was accepted into medical school and random people ask me what I am studying, when I say "I am starting medical school" "Or I am a first year medical student," I have gotten the "oh, so you are going to be a nurse" so many times I can't count...even by NURSES and PT's! At first, I just attributed it to ignorance, but after it happened to me three times in the last two weeks, it finally dawned on me, they were saying this because I am a woman!
If a guy were to say he were in medical school, nobody would think he was going to be a nurse...they would right away assume he was going to be a doctor.
It is pretty frustrating and just damn annoying, I will admit.

Some of these other stories frustrate me even more. Don't people know that it is 2003 and there are just as many women, if not more women, going into medicine as men?

 

[Sessamoid]

Originally posted by MichiMO
At first, I just attributed it to ignorance, but after it happened to me three times in the last two weeks, it finally dawned on me, they were saying this because I am a woman!

It took you three times for you to realize that? Having a blonde moment? 🙂 No gender slam intended, as blonds come in all shapes, sizes, and genders. You'll probably get a lot of that in the years to come. I see you're in Arizona, and probably you'll see a lot of snowbirds who aren't used to female physicians.

Don't people know that it is 2003 and there are just as many women, if not more women, going into medicine as men?

Obviously, they don't. I guess they don't watch enough ER. Or maybe they do and think that the only female physicians are unbelievably attractive supermodels.

 

[grouptherapy]

there's a recent episode of "living large" where carmen electra is interviewing the girls at a playboy party. one playmate reveals to ms. electra that she's going to medical school to which carmen replies, "you'll be one sexy nurse."

 

[Mirror Form]

I personally feel more sorry for the male nurses who get called doctor and then have to explain that they're a nurse, but maybe that's just because I'm a guy.

But seriously girls, being a female doctor isn't all that bad! For example, one of my family's friends is a general practicioner in a 5 person group. The two women get to have kids and then take maternity leave for like 8 months. During this time they get paid full salary while the men cover all of their patients w/o making an extra dime (or at least not much more). So the guys have to work too hard to spend time with their young children knowing they'll never get more then 2 weeks off in a row!

Not that I'm saying I disagree with maternity leave, or that I want to get pregnant. But I just feel like it's important to say that the grass isn't all that green over here on the men's side of the fence either.

 

[MichiMO]

Originally posted by Sessamoid
It took you three times for you to realize that? Having a blonde moment? 🙂 No gender slam intended, as blonds come in all shapes, sizes, and genders. You'll probably get a lot of that in the years to come. I see you're in Arizona, and probably you'll see a lot of snowbirds who aren't used to female physicians.

No, not having a blond moment...I just really am so rarely confronted with situations where my gender is an issue that I didn't even consider it. Also, believe it or not, I have gotten this response by old and young, male and female...in Arizona, New York, and Montreal. This is my point...I never realized that this type of attitude still existed across so many demographics. It is definitely subtle, but still very much present in our society.

 

[rubyness]

Here are a few things I've experienced since I began third year in July.

1. Surgery rotation. Male X-ray tech says I?m not strong enough to pull down the arms of a patient for his chest x-ray. Requests to see my biceps muscle flexed. I show him. He scoffs.

2. Surgery rotation. Male senior resident says I?m not strong enough to turn the patient, therefore I am the one who should do the rectal exam while the male student turns him.

3. Surgery rotation. Patient says, ?What?s a dainty little thing like you doing being a surgeon??

4. Surgery rotation. Dr. X- vascular surgeon. In the OR, starts off the procedure by telling us about a porno he watched that morning. ?I saw a really great movie this morning.? So naturally, others ask ?What?? so he says it was a porno about two women drug agents. At the end of the surgery he went over to the scrub nurse and asked for a kiss, I guess because it was her last day. She actually kissed him! And then at one point he came up behind me and clamped his ice cold hand down on the back of my neck. I think he said something while he held it there, but I was so pissed I don?t remember what.

5. Neurology rotation. Three of us students, 2 female one male. Male senior resident tells the male student to go do a consult on a patient because pt is a 20 y/o male who was hospitalized for getting into a fight (and needs to be cleared for neurosurgery). When asked why male student should be sent, resident's answer is ?Well, for obvious reasons.? What might these be? Is he going to attack us or something?

6. ER rotation. There was a lady who was very upset and always calling for Dr. X (male). He wouldn?t go to her, because he considers comforting others to be a threat to his manhood. So I went to her and consoled her for a long time. Later he said ?I couldn?t do that kind of thing. You need estrogen to do that.? I said I had plenty, and not to worry, it wouldn?t rub off.

 

[jazz]

6. ER rotation. There was a lady who was very upset and always calling for Dr. X (male). He wouldn?t go to her, because he considers comforting others to be a threat to his manhood. So I went to her and consoled her for a long time. Later he said ?I couldn?t do that kind of thing. You need estrogen to do that.? I said I had plenty, and not to worry, it wouldn?t rub off.

rubyness, sorry to hear about that but really i think if anything only the comment was off. the longer you work in the er, the more you'll realize how no one would have wanted to go comfort the patient. it sounds cold but it's the nature of the beast. we see patients, order labs/studies, move on, and then dispo when we have data back. unfortunately the er is not a place to come if you're looking for comfort. the most you'll get is 5 minutes and that's a big chunk of time for most er physicians. i don't know how many er docs you've worked with but in general, they tend to be cruder, and on the surface cold and heartless. i find that comment hilarious and can imagine a lot of my colleagues saying it (and yes, i am a female resident).

 

[Winged Scapula]

Its unfortunate that people like rubyness are still experiencing such outlandish treatment. I have not, or perhaps am oblivious to it. The vast majority of my experiences have been akin to the others - especially now at the VA - being called "girls", "honey", "Sweetheart", etc and being mistaken for a nurse. Even when I've repeatedly introduced myself as Dr. So and So.

Then again, there have been times when patients have addressed me as the "boss" rather than the attending either because I'm older or because they see me so much more! 😉

 

[rubyness]

Hey Jazz-- You're right, the ER is not the best spot for a lot of comforting. I think that I really did not explain the story very well. What I didn't say was that the reason that she was crying out for him was because she had questions about what was going to happen next and how she was going to get home and when. When he didn't answer her this made her panicky, and thus set off more of her calling for him. I think that if he had gone to her when she first cried out and explained what was going to happen that she would have settled down. But ignoring her made the situation worse. Plus at the time she was one of only 3 patients we had, so he had some time to be able to talk to her.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

Being female can be an advantage (or disadvantage) at times.

My program is close to 90% men (surgery) and there are times where I feel I get by easier- though I have been yelled at, I have seen them brutalize some of my fellow interns much worse than they have me.

(This is going to move me further and further up the heathen list...) You can use this to your advantage to charm guys into doing things for you. I can get some male consults to see my patients pretty fast- I tell them how I really need advice regarding one of my patients, thank them, and they are usually happy to come help out. I am polite, say please and thank you, things get done for my patients, so I see nothing wrong with using this to your advantage. Doesn't hurt anyone.

On the flip side of the coin, I think some people see women as a burden (more so in surgery) because of the possibility of someone getting pregnant and requiring time off. Though I personally would not do that and would not necessarily recommend it to others (in surgery,) many of my male colleagues have families so I guess it is unfair to expect that females shouldn't live to the same standards. I probably would grumble about having to take extra call, but in the end, I would do it to try to help if another female in my program decided to have a kid.

I also miss the comraderie of other females- the guys in my program are nice to me, but I don't exactly fit in to their Friday night, beer guzzling, chick-scoping expeditions. I like to have a drink with friends, but I am not interested in hooking up with random men downtown.

I get an occasional condescending comment (from patients/staff), but I make sure that I read up on my patients well and practice my technique, and I think that for the most part, the male residents, staff, and attendings in my program respect me as a colleague. They're usually pretty decent to me.

 

[Weil-Felix]

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have been mistaken for a nurse/nursing student. I would say that on most patient care rotations, it happens on average about 1-2 times per week. Sadly, I have gotten used to it.

Here are some over the top stories, though.

On my OB/Gyn rotation, one of my male attendings was having a discussion with one of the anethesiologists in the OR about how there was a nursing shortage because "all the nurses (women) were going to med school". Then he turned to me and said "You know, twenty years ago you would never have gone to med school. You would have been a nurse." Thanks, jackass.

Then on my FP rotation, once again the same lameass topic came up. Some patient complaining about the nursing shortage, and blaming it on the fact that women are going to med school (oh, gasp, the abomination!) Believe it or not, it was a female patient, and not a terribly old one, maybe in her fifties. She said this as she glared angrily in my direction. She later asked me snippy questions about whether the females in my class actually passed boards.

On my internal medicine rotation, some guy on the elevator who noticed my student nametag asked me what I was studying to be. I said a doctor. Then he said "Oh yeah, right. A real doctor, or an R.D. or something?" (What the hell is an R.D. anyway? A registered dietician?) I was a little floored, so I just said, "uh, yeah, last I checked, an MD was a real doctor" and got off the elevator. I guess it was inconcievable that a female could possible aspire to be anything but a "pretend" doctor? Whatever.

 

[gimmedog]

I had the same experience! My cardiology attending told me that 20 years ago, I would have been a nurse. In an almost wistful way.....

The problem is not simply that women are becoming doctors, it's also that men are NOT going into nursing. There should be more acceptance and recruiting of male nurses.

Did anyone see "Meet the Parents"? The male nurse was the butt of many jokes.

 

[Teufelhunden]

I hate to make a sexist comment but here goes: While men and women are equally suited to be physicians, they are not equally suited to be nurses. The majority of men simply to not have the dispostion to be nurses.

You can argue with me until you're blue in the face, but men (in general) are not very nuturing. I know there's a lot of you out there who like to pretend that there's no differences between men and women, but....uhhh...there are.

So, don't expect men to flood into the nursing profession anytime soon.

 

[Teufelhunden]

And Ladies...before y'all start calling me a sexist pig...I want you to think of 5 men you know...boyfriend, friends, brothers...whomever...no imaging them in nurse's scrubs.

Get the point? How many of those 5 do you think would make a good nurse? Be honest.

 

[kcrd]

Originally posted by gimmedog

The problem is not simply that women are becoming doctors, it's also that men are NOT going into nursing. There should be more acceptance and recruiting of male nurses.

I think you make a really good point here. There are so many sexist stereotypes associated with nursing, that men won't even consider it (see above!)

 

[bustinbooty]

From my female med student friends I have talked to, the greatest discrimination seems to come from their patients (i.e. assuming that because they are female, they are a nurse, P.A., etc. whatever.) It is my opinion that this attitude from patients stems more from the fact that there are very few male nurses more than the fact that there are few female doctors. I think the populus in general has embraced the female physician to the point that it is a non-issue. However, because the male nurse is still somewhat more of an oddity, this still may cause an inadvertant attitude that "all females are nurses" by John Q. Patient. So is the solution to get more female physicians or to get more male nurses? My thoughts are that the later would be more successful in breaking down the gender roles within the hospital.

 

[AJM]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
I hate to make a sexist comment but here goes: While men and women are equally suited to be physicians, they are not equally suited to be nurses. The majority of men simply to not have the dispostion to be nurses.

You can argue with me until you're blue in the face, but men (in general) are not very nuturing. I know there's a lot of you out there who like to pretend that there's no differences between men and women, but....uhhh...there are.

So, don't expect men to flood into the nursing profession anytime soon.

Hmmm, if a requirement for being a nurse is that they have to be nurturing, then the majority of nurses I know should never have even gone to nursing school.

In my opinion, the best nurses are not the ones that are nurturing, but they are the ones that are excellent clinicians, are able to pick up on problems before they start, and are great at troubleshooting and thinking for themselves. Oh yeah -- they also have to be able to put up with a lot of s*** (both literally and figuratively). To me, these qualities would be equally found in both men and women.

I think the real reason men aren't flooding to the profession is the huge social stigma of a male nurse.

 

[DOtobe]

I have had many a patient say, "oh, you're going to be a nurse?" when I say I am a medical student, but I have never felt that discrimination from attendings. In fact, most of the male attendings have been nicer to me than the few female ones I have had. My next rotation is surgery, so we'll see how things go there...

And when I tell patients, "No, I'm going to be a doctor" they say, "Oh, my, that's wonderful" or something along those lines. I have only had one really older man who was amazed that I was going to be a female doctor.

I agree that the fact there aren't many male nurses may contribute more to the ideas that patients have. Before I started med school or did any volunteering in the hospital setting, I admit that I felt having a male nurse was a little weird. I'm sure most of us have at one time or another.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by AJM
I think the real reason men aren't flooding to the profession is the huge social stigma of a male nurse.

So, what's the stigma?

"Male nurses are ______." <--fill in the blank

Personally, I just don't thing guys want the job, nor do I think a majority of men would be good at it.

 

[kcrd]

There are actually a good number of male nurses in certain departments of the hospital - the ED and the ICU. I think that these guys are typically ex-EMT types who were looking for some more money. I'm sure that these guys are good at their jobs - I don't understand how you could make a blanket statement that men wouldn't be good at nursing.

I think the reason that men aren't entering nursing is because it is a low status, low paying job, (like most female-dominated fields), and because people label men who enter "women's" fields as effeminate/homosexual/etc.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
I hate to make a sexist comment but here goes: While men and women are equally suited to be physicians, they are not equally suited to be nurses. The majority of men simply to not have the dispostion to be nurses.

Oh, poopycah.

In surgery, the ICU and the ED, which constitute the bulk of my stomping grounds, there's very nearly a 50/50 split of men and women among the nursing staff. Many of the men are excellent; many of the women are excellent. Some of the men are exceptionally attentive and caring; some of the women are detached and impersonal. Some of the women are aggressive, forceful and ambitious; some of the men are meek pushovers.

The most timid person on staff in our OR's right now is a guy, while the toughest hardcore surgery assistant - who takes crap from the harshest surgeons and shoves it right back down their throats, all the while doing an impecible job - is a petite older woman.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Womansurg, you work with a small slice of the nursing pie in that you deal with hospital nurses, many of them probably surgical nurses, right? Well, the majority of the nursing shortage is in places like nursing homes, assisted living, etc...where a large component of the job is simply "caring" for patients.

Listen, all your points are lost on this simple fact: men don't go into nursing. And the reason is simple, people usually don't pursue fields they wouldn't enjoy and subsequently would not be good at.

Men simply self-select themselves from this field...it's that simple people.

 

[OwlMyste]

Originally posted by rubyness
Here are a few things I've experienced since I began third year in July.

1. Surgery rotation. Male X-ray tech says I?m not strong enough to pull down the arms of a patient for his chest x-ray. Requests to see my biceps muscle flexed. I show him. He scoffs.

2. Surgery rotation. Male senior resident says I?m not strong enough to turn the patient, therefore I am the one who should do the rectal exam while the male student turns him.

3. Surgery rotation. Patient says, ?What?s a dainty little thing like you doing being a surgeon??

4. Surgery rotation. Dr. X- vascular surgeon. In the OR, starts off the procedure by telling us about a porno he watched that morning. ?I saw a really great movie this morning.? So naturally, others ask ?What?? so he says it was a porno about two women drug agents. At the end of the surgery he went over to the scrub nurse and asked for a kiss, I guess because it was her last day. She actually kissed him! And then at one point he came up behind me and clamped his ice cold hand down on the back of my neck. I think he said something while he held it there, but I was so pissed I don?t remember what.

5. Neurology rotation. Three of us students, 2 female one male. Male senior resident tells the male student to go do a consult on a patient because pt is a 20 y/o male who was hospitalized for getting into a fight (and needs to be cleared for neurosurgery). When asked why male student should be sent, resident's answer is ?Well, for obvious reasons.? What might these be? Is he going to attack us or something?

6. ER rotation. There was a lady who was very upset and always calling for Dr. X (male). He wouldn?t go to her, because he considers comforting others to be a threat to his manhood. So I went to her and consoled her for a long time. Later he said ?I couldn?t do that kind of thing. You need estrogen to do that.? I said I had plenty, and not to worry, it wouldn?t rub off.

.......................
my responses to some of these situations would be something like.....

1.) and 2.) "hmmmm.....I'm strong enough to handle labor pains and childbirth beyond your wildest dreams, not to mention I'm strong enough to bring a child to term yet I'm not strong enough to hold a pt's arms down for an x-ray......(on this note, it is physical strength...because as any woman who was in labor knows...never underestimate the strength of a woman in labor....my mother gave birth naturally to me by mistake cause she waited till it was too ate to get an epidural,...and she nearly broke my fathers hand...

on number 5, it may not have been because he feared he would attack. some pts feel safer with ppl of their own gender. I specifically requested a female GYN when i went for my yearly checkup, because with a male GYN, things would feel awkward. also theres the consideration of they can commissurate(sp?) better if theyre the same gender as you.

#6) inject him with artificial estrogen and tell him to get his ass into there and comfort the pt. 😀 (weres the devil smiley when ya need it???)

 

[rubyness]

 

[Starcraft]

my suggestion would be to grow some skin. i've run into members of both sexes that treat the smallest little thing like it's the end of the world. people have no idea what getting "chewed out" is. nothing that happened to you is *that* unique-- i would wager something similar has happened to everyone, even males, sometime or other. as medstudents, you get **** on occasionally. right or wrong, it's part of the process. if you wanna go on a crusade to change it, i wish you the best of luck. until then, i would just survive school and residency and then practice medicine however you want to practice medicine. that's the beauty of it-- someday you *will* be answering to yourself.

it's like the cliche with the 2 rules-- #1 is don't sweat the small stuff, #2 is everything is small stuff.

 

[MichiMO]

Originally posted by Starcraft
my suggestion would be to grow some skin. i've run into members of both sexes that treat the smallest little thing like it's the end of the world. people have no idea what getting "chewed out" is. nothing that happened to you is *that* unique-- i would wager something similar has happened to everyone, even males, sometime or other. as medstudents, you get **** on occasionally. right or wrong, it's part of the process. if you wanna go on a crusade to change it, i wish you the best of luck. until then, i would just survive school and residency and then practice medicine however you want to practice medicine. that's the beauty of it-- someday you *will* be answering to yourself.

it's like the cliche with the 2 rules-- #1 is don't sweat the small stuff, #2 is everything is small stuff.

First of all, I don't think any of us are crawling into a hole to die because we are faced with these instances of sexism. All of us are working on...surviving. Does that mean there is not a problem...even if it is just "small stuff?" I don't think so.

The purpose of these forums is to discuss issues we face and sometimes to just vent. Don't take on that jerky (attendant) attitude that you should just suck everything up. Sometimes you just want to talk about it and I don't think you need to be leading a crusade to discuss problems you experience. Furthermore, I think it is helpful to be aware of these type of issues so you can be better prepared to stand up for yourself in the future.

Don't buy into this whole medical school/training attitude that we NEED to suffer...or should suffer...like "don't whine about all you have to learn, the many nights of lost sleep, a system that puts down people lower down the ladder, or situations when you are confronted with sexism or prejudice." How stupid.

Finally, we were all just trying to describe the situation as we experience it to the OP...once again: the main purpose of SDN: the sharing of information.

 

[Mirror Form]

Originally posted by kcrd
I think the reason that men aren't entering nursing is because it is a low status, low paying job, (like most female-dominated fields),

There's plenty of men in low status & low paying jobs. The majority of our blue collar work force has traditionally been men. If the job involves dirty and dangerous labor then men tend to make up the vast majority of the work-force.

Originally posted by kcrd
and because people label men who enter "women's" fields as effeminate/homosexual/etc.

I think you hit the nail on the head right here. It may be socially acceptable for women to become doctors, but male nurses face a lot of stigma and ridicule, even from people who claim to be progressive.

 

[OwlMyste]

maybe "medical school" was an old school term for nursing school when it came to females?

Is it just me? because when someone says "med school" i think "doctor" regardless of gender....I have always thought of that. Next time a pt assumes you are a nurse, ask them the question.."what did the term 'medical school' mean for females back in your day?" you may get some surprising answers.

on a side note i was in the hospital for my routine epilepsy checkup, saw a woman in a white lab coat, and called her "doctor"...wasnt till i read her lab coat did i notice the initials "NP".....i was in the hospital very young and associated everyone in a white lab coat as a doctor, and was scared as hell of each of them!!!