DISCUSS: News on Future veterinary schools

[pp9]

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I'm not a very anxious person at baseline, though.

canNOT relate

 

[katiemcat]

canNOT relate

Same……….

 

[FutureDrMP]

Hi!! In regards to the discussion on LMU and the lawsuit I would love some insight. I got accepted to LMU for Spring 2025 but deferred to Spring 2026 for personal reasons. With the possibility of the school losing accreditation, should I try to apply again this cycle? It's an OOS school for me, and my largest concern is losing the ability to take out Federal loans. I am on the IS waitlist for UF still as well, but I am not really expecting to hear anything from them at this point. Just looking for some guidance.

 

[honeypot999]

Hi!! In regards to the discussion on LMU and the lawsuit I would love some insight. I got accepted to LMU for Spring 2025 but deferred to Spring 2026 for personal reasons. With the possibility of the school losing accreditation, should I try to apply again this cycle? It's an OOS school for me, and my largest concern is losing the ability to take out Federal loans. I am on the IS waitlist for UF still as well, but I am not really expecting to hear anything from them at this point. Just looking for some guidance.

LMU isn’t going to lose accreditation any time soon if at all. LMU is just throwing a hissy fit like Western (or was it midwestern) did when the COE didn’t like them having a distributive model.

Go to LMU you’ll enjoy your time there hopefully

 

[battie]

LMU isn’t going to lose accreditation any time soon if at all. LMU is just throwing a hissy fit like Western (or was it midwestern) did when the COE didn’t like them having a distributive model.

Go to LMU you’ll enjoy your time there hopefully

It was Western almost 15-20 years before Midwestern existed

 

[Koffeekat]

LMU isn’t going to lose accreditation any time soon if at all. LMU is just throwing a hissy fit like Western (or was it midwestern) did when the COE didn’t like them having a distributive model.

Go to LMU you’ll enjoy your time there hopefully

Would you change this answer at all for people who are applying for the spring or fall 2026 cycle? I originally really had my eye on trying to start in spring of 2026, but I must admit, the lawsuit is making me nervous.

 

[honeypot999]

Would you change this answer at all for people who are applying for the spring or fall 2026 cycle? I originally really had my eye on trying to start in spring of 2026, but I must admit, the lawsuit is making me nervous.

No probably not. LMU has produced many great vets and some of my undergrad friends and mentors attended. The lawsuit is over their new school mostly. It won’t be the last time a school sues the AVMA COE

 

[supershorty]

Would you change this answer at all for people who are applying for the spring or fall 2026 cycle? I originally really had my eye on trying to start in spring of 2026, but I must admit, the lawsuit is making me nervous.

The lawsuit isn't about them losing accreditation, it's about them throwing a tantrum because the standards for accreditation include things like research funding (which, IMO, should be required) and they have not secured that for some new program they're trying to open. And thus, they have not been able to get a letter of reasonable assurance for said new program.

This is a fairly uncharitable take on it, so take that for what it's worth.

 

[pp9]

No probably not. LMU has produced many great vets and some of my undergrad friends and mentors attended. The lawsuit is over their new school mostly. It won’t be the last time a school sues the AVMA COE

The lawsuit isn't about them losing accreditation, it's about them throwing a tantrum because the standards for accreditation include things like research funding (which, IMO, should be required) and they have not secured that for some new program they're trying to open. And thus, they have not been able to get a letter of reasonable assurance for said new program.

This is a fairly uncharitable take on it, so take that for what it's worth.

Yeah, basically LMU wants to be able to establish a vet school that only deals in didactic courses, then charge students to find their clinical training elsewhere. They want nothing to do with the parts of a vet school that don't make a profit - a teaching hospital, research/labs, etc. They probably produce graduates that function fine since most students don't interact with research during their education, but whether or not they are a 'contributing member of society' in the veterinary world is a different discussion (edit: referring to LMU here, not the students). If they win this lawsuit, it opens the door for even more private schools to slap together a few classrooms and an anatomy lab, charge $100k/year and call it a vet school

 

[Koffeekat]

Yeah, basically LMU wants to be able to establish a vet school that only deals in didactic courses, then charge students to find their clinical training elsewhere. They want nothing to do with the parts of a vet school that don't make a profit - a teaching hospital, research/labs, etc. They probably produce graduates that function fine since most students don't interact with research during their education, but whether or not they are a 'contributing member of society' in the veterinary world is a different discussion (edit: referring to LMU here, not the students). If they win this lawsuit, it opens the door for even more private schools to slap together a few classrooms and an anatomy lab, charge $100k/year and call it a vet school

So do we think that going to LMU is going to give you an inferior education? Interfere with job prospects?

 

[pp9]

So do we think that going to LMU is going to give you an inferior education? Interfere with job prospects?

No, no one is saying that. You don't need access to research on campus (the focus of the lawsuit) to be able to function. Like I said, the majority of vet students have nothing to do with research during school and they aren't worse off for it.

This lawsuit tells me that LMU is strictly wanting a vet school for profit purposes and has no intention of contributing to our ecosystem with research, specialty training, etc. They just see that vet students are willing to pay whatever price tag to get the degree and are capitalizing off of it. You could argue that for all schools that do not have a teaching hospital, too. It's the idea that they want to do nothing but collect tuition basically. They don't want to build up the profession, improve our knowledge/standards, etc. They literally just want to churn students out and do the 'easy' part of having them sit in the classroom for two years.

It would be good to remember that with every new school that hasn't followed the traditional mold, the vet community has said things like 'those graduates won't be good' or whatever. That hasn't held true yet, but I think getting the CoE to drop standards could be the start of that. What would be next? Virtual anatomy only so the school doesn't have to build a lab, cadaver storage, and purchase cadavers? Virtual classes only until clinics so they don't even have to build a school and can just use recorded lectures (imo this will happen at some point, some of us already had recorded lectures)? Even for well established 'traditional' schools, there are doubts about how well students are being taught and prepared.

 

[_rae_]

Virtual classes only until clinics so they don't even have to build a school and can just use recorded lectures (imo this will happen at some point, some of us already had recorded lectures)?

This is one that I feel strongly about and don't love the slippery slope argument. I believe wholeheartedly that accreditation standards should require a live, in person option to be provided, however, the decision to essentially ban hybrid classrooms hurts the veterinary community. Zoom and recorded lectures provide flexibility to allow a diverse student body to attend. Students with disabilities who sometimes need to stay home won't get behind, students with families already potentially save on childcare, students who can manage it can work and do their classwork on their own time.

 

[Minnerbelle]

It would be good to remember that with every new school that hasn't followed the traditional mold, the vet community has said things like 'those graduates won't be good' or whatever. That hasn't held true yet, but I think getting the CoE to drop standards could be the start of that. What would be next? Virtual anatomy only so the school doesn't have to build a lab, cadaver storage, and purchase cadavers? Virtual classes only until clinics so they don't even have to build a school and can just use recorded lectures (imo this will happen at some point, some of us already had recorded lectures)? Even for well established 'traditional' schools, there are doubts about how well students are being taught and prepared.

At least for now, COE is cracking down on “remote learning” now that covid is over with. It is not allowed. Whether students choose to attend lecture or not, it has to be available in person with enough seats for every student (cannot even live cast it to another overflow auditorium).

 

[JaynaAli]

This is one that I feel strongly about and don't love the slippery slope argument. I believe wholeheartedly that accreditation standards should require a live, in person option to be provided, however, the decision to essentially ban hybrid classrooms hurts the veterinary community. Zoom and recorded lectures provide flexibility to allow a diverse student body to attend. Students with disabilities who sometimes need to stay home won't get behind, students with families already potentially save on childcare, students who can manage it can work and do their classwork on their own time.

I think the important difference here is intent and nature of the recording. Its not the recording of a lecture that is bad. I agree they’re useful study tools. But what is not currently okay and what I’d want to avoid is having Professor Talksalot record a course then just reuse that recording over and over and over and call it a course. If specialists keep exiting academia at current rates we may have to eventually use correspondence courses to teach (should the COE ever revise their guidelines), but I certainly hope not.

 

[pp9]

This is one that I feel strongly about and don't love the slippery slope argument. I believe wholeheartedly that accreditation standards should require a live, in person option to be provided, however, the decision to essentially ban hybrid classrooms hurts the veterinary community. Zoom and recorded lectures provide flexibility to allow a diverse student body to attend. Students with disabilities who sometimes need to stay home won't get behind, students with families already potentially save on childcare, students who can manage it can work and do their classwork on their own time.

It's not so much the idea of a virtual classroom being the issue, but the idea that it becomes that much easier to become a 'veterinary school.' If you don't have a teaching hospital and don't even need classrooms, you could just contract out with whatever vets wanted to 'lecture' for your school and use those lectures over and over until a major update needs to happen. And if you don't need to provide tangible resources/faciltiies to your students, why not just up the class size to 250? What about 300? What about 300 3x/year, because all they need to do is press play? Worst case scenario obviously, but in my eyes is very realistic if schools are able to sue their way into dropping standards.

existing schools (with hospitals and labs) are already having a hard time hanging onto clinicians as is. UofI couldn't find a radiologist for years and we had to use prerecorded lectures for that subject, and we basically learned nothing. That vet didn't even hold office hours for us. I think there are ways to do virtual learning well, and as a society we had to get good at it quickly. Presently there are numerous nursing degrees, vet tech degrees, etc. that are fully online (and asynchronous, for some) sans the hands-on clinical requirements. Of course it opens a ton of doors for people, and no one would want to close those doors, but at some point it becomes a degree mill of a school.

Edit: Just wanted to further emphasize that I am not referring to a live lecture being recorded for at home review. I'm referring to exactly what Jayna said. Two extremely different things

 

[_rae_]

Okay, I sort of figured we were on a similar page. I'm most concerned and most impacted by the policies that minnerbelle mentioned, so sorry if I came across strong there. I think the concern for a totally pre-recorded course or even curriculum isn't unfounded, but I feel like most students don't want that anyway, y'know? Maybe I'm wrong, I just know that I myself would not thrive in that environment and would not want to pay for it, even if they advertised it as being cheaper. In this case, I feel like cost would indicate quality.

 

[pp9]

Okay, I sort of figured we were on a similar page. I'm most concerned and most impacted by the policies that minnerbelle mentioned, so sorry if I came across strong there. I think the concern for a totally pre-recorded course or even curriculum isn't unfounded, but I feel like most students don't want that anyway, y'know? Maybe I'm wrong, I just know that I myself would not thrive in that environment and would not want to pay for it, even if they advertised it as being cheaper. In this case, I feel like cost would indicate quality.

Do you really think that would stop people from applying? I don't think it would, not when we have students willing to pay any dollar amount for a school that doesn't even have a teaching hospital

 

[battie]

but I feel like most students don't want that anyway, y'know?

I honestly don't know. I think that there are enough students desperate enough to get the DVM that they will do anything and handle whatever to get those letters.

 

[_rae_]

Do you really think that would stop people from applying? I don't think it would, not when we have students willing to pay any dollar amount for a school that doesn't even have a teaching hospital

I honestly don't know. I think that there are enough students desperate enough to get the DVM that they will do anything and handle whatever to get those letters.

I really feel like pre-recorded lectures is a really big step down in a different way, but maybe that's naivety. I'm definitely in the camp of "there's a lot I'll do to get my DVM" but I won't do absolutely anything, and in the wise words of Meatloaf I certainly would not do that. I'm having a hard time putting myself in the shoes of or looking through the lens of someone who would.

 

[pp9]

I really feel like pre-recorded lectures is a really big step down in a different way, but maybe that's naivety. I'm definitely in the camp of "there's a lot I'll do to get my DVM" but I won't do absolutely anything, and in the wise words of Meatloaf I certainly would not do that. I'm having a hard time putting myself in the shoes of or looking through the lens of someone who would.

Idk, if I was on my third or fourth cycle, I would be feeling the heat. I was pretty desperate to get in, but things were verrry different only 10 years ago. It seems very common to come across people on their 4th+ try, but that could be thanks to the younger people being much more online than even people my age were at the time

 

[honeypot999]

Okay, I sort of figured we were on a similar page. I'm most concerned and most impacted by the policies that minnerbelle mentioned, so sorry if I came across strong there. I think the concern for a totally pre-recorded course or even curriculum isn't unfounded, but I feel like most students don't want that anyway, y'know? Maybe I'm wrong, I just know that I myself would not thrive in that environment and would not want to pay for it, even if they advertised it as being cheaper. In this case, I feel like cost would indicate quality.

For the amount of post I see monthly asking if there is an online vet school option I won’t put it past the desperate pre vet student to take that option of a fully remote school.

To me a total online curriculum would be detrimental but those who are desperate they may not care

 

[abrew13]

I feel like most students don't want that anyway, y'know?

I'm definitely in the camp of "there's a lot I'll do to get my DVM" but I won't do absolutely anything

As others have said, I think desperation outweighs logic at some point. I was also in the “there’s a lot I’ll do to get my DVM, but I won’t do absolutely anything” camp. For me personally, I wouldn’t attend a school without a teaching hospital, and I wouldn’t attend a school that would put me $200k+ in debt. Those were hard no’s for me, but the distributive model is popular with a lot of students and there are students going significantly over that debt number. One person’s “hard no” is another’s “this is my only option”, and I think a lot of schools are happy to exploit that.

 

[gartersotter]

I'm a specialist in a teaching hospital and there are absolutely students who would prefer to be 100% online with lectures. I support the option to have recorded lectures that are either simultaneously broadcast or at a delay for the reasons stated above. However, it is exceptionally disheartening to see 10 students out of 100 show up to some lectures, especially at a time that we're being asked to provide more and more active learning and flipped classroom formats. To be clear, I would not support a 100% online delivery of a vet school curriculum. It would be a huge mistake... but it certainly would not limit enrollment if that was what was being offered somewhere.

 

[battie]

especially at a time that we're being asked to provide more and more active learning and flipped classroom format

Depending on how this is delivered, I think the attendance thing will improve tbh. The way our flipped classroom professors did such lectures made it so you had to go to class cause there was not a true lecture to watch on the recording

 

[Lissarae06]

I feel like surgery is like everything else…we need a baseline education and minimum competencies in it because you *can* go out and do it, but then it’s up to the student to pursue more experiences, electives, and trainings if that’s something they plan to use. And most people will do it to some degree so there should be plenty of opportunities.

My school had what I feel like were above average opportunities for surgery. Things have changed so much there I don’t know what goes on now, but we all did at least 3 spays and 3 neuters as primary and assisted a classmate on 3&3 more, and we did cadaver surgeries for things like a splenectomy and an R&A. Then on the general practice rotation most people got at least one other surgery and often more, and we had an optional shelter elective which was surgeries all day for 3 weeks. I didn’t do the shelter rotation. My two preceptorships I arranged for myself in private practice let me cut as many of their daily surgeries as I wanted, so I got to do over a dozen S/N at each of those independently, plus some mass removals and even a couple GI surgeries under heavy supervision. As an intern we obviously assisted the surgeons and did a lot of closing but also did a GP rotation and I got a couple more S/N and later on they let me do an amputation for a client that otherwise couldn’t afford the surgeons fees for her cat. And after all that, it’s been over a decade now since I have cut anything. I did assist my friend with an enterotomy and gastronomy a year or two ago. Definitely don’t miss surgery.

Shelter med is now a core rotation. Spay/neuter all day every day with occasional other procedures sprinkled in like amputations. Community practice (now called Primary Care) has a general medicine/wellness rotation that functions like a GP clinic minus surgery and dental and a general surgery/dentistry rotation that is GP level dentistry and surgery. We do daytime emergency surgeries, too. We don’t have residents or interns on our service on a regular basis so the students do most of the work if the case/patient status allows for it and the student is adequate prepared. For example, I did a cystotomy with a student. She could talk me through the surgery step by step so I let her do it while I closely supervised and it was great. If the patient isn’t super stable, the DVM will do the procedure with the student scrubbed in to assist because we are faster, but the students still get in there. We are really focusing on improving the dentistry curriculum and OkSU just invested a bunch of money into buying dental equipment for third year labs. I’m excited to see how that course develops.

 

[indysadventures]

I'm a specialist in a teaching hospital and there are absolutely students who would prefer to be 100% online with lectures. I support the option to have recorded lectures that are either simultaneously broadcast or at a delay for the reasons stated above. However, it is exceptionally disheartening to see 10 students out of 100 show up to some lectures, especially at a time that we're being asked to provide more and more active learning and flipped classroom formats. To be clear, I would not support a 100% online delivery of a vet school curriculum. It would be a huge mistake... but it certainly would not limit enrollment if that was what was being offered somewhere.

It’s so tough, because as a disabled, older student starting this year, I chose UMN for their excellent hybrid set up. I know that I learn 1000% better in the classroom, and plan to attend lecture every physical day that I can, but knowing that I could take like 5 days a semester to watch live from home made it feel so accessible to me. Having worked in education, I can understand the guidelines and the fears, it just sucks to be a student who really was looking forward to the flexibility without needing to use an accommodation.

I know I will likely still be able to access some level of streaming, but it’s nice to not have to specifically make it obvious I have a disability, and when things are accessible for all, it makes it easier to use without judgment. It’s like the studies of free-reduced lunch- kids who need it are more likely to consistently use and benefit when there isn’t a level of alienation associated with receiving it in the first place.

Anyway, I digress. There’s no right answer, just yelling into the ether I suppose.

 

[pp9]

It’s so tough, because as a disabled, older student starting this year, I chose UMN for their excellent hybrid set up. I know that I learn 1000% better in the classroom, and plan to attend lecture every physical day that I can, but knowing that I could take like 5 days a semester to watch live from home made it feel so accessible to me. Having worked in education, I can understand the guidelines and the fears, it just sucks to be a student who really was looking forward to the flexibility without needing to use an accommodation.

I know I will likely still be able to access some level of streaming, but it’s nice to not have to specifically make it obvious I have a disability, and when things are accessible for all, it makes it easier to use without judgment. It’s like the studies of free-reduced lunch- kids who need it are more likely to consistently use and benefit when there isn’t a level of alienation associated with receiving it in the first place.

Anyway, I digress. There’s no right answer, just yelling into the ether I suppose.

But you're still watching a real person lecture in real time. And even if that lecture is recorded for later review, that's still entirely different from the concept we are referring to - that someone could record a batch of lectures for a school to use for years, and you don't actually have a real lecturer at all at that point.

 

[indysadventures]

But you're still watching a real person lecture in real time. And even if that lecture is recorded for later review, that's still entirely different from the concept we are referring to - that someone could record a batch of lectures for a school to use for years, and you don't actually have a real lecturer at all at that point.

Oh I know, and I’m completely against any fully-online program or use of pre-recorded lectures that way! I think someone else had brought up the changes affecting their school from the COE rules, and that applies to UMN, too. And I was commenting that it sucks to not be able to have that structure anymore because of blanket COE rules against distance and hybrid learning, even if I do understand why these rules need to exist.

 

[_rae_]

I apologize, I think I derailed things a bit here.

Consensus: totally online, pre-recorded vet school, very very bad

Live lecture in real time either recorded for later viewing or viewed distance learning style via zoom, okay acceptable if done correctly

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm a specialist in a teaching hospital and there are absolutely students who would prefer to be 100% online with lectures. I support the option to have recorded lectures that are either simultaneously broadcast or at a delay for the reasons stated above. However, it is exceptionally disheartening to see 10 students out of 100 show up to some lectures, especially at a time that we're being asked to provide more and more active learning and flipped classroom formats. To be clear, I would not support a 100% online delivery of a vet school curriculum. It would be a huge mistake... but it certainly would not limit enrollment if that was what was being offered somewhere.

Another vet specialist in human academia here. At one point we had only 5-6 people in the classroom, which makes interactive sessions really hard. And when we tracked the views of the lectures, they were single digits. We were having issues with clinicians coming to lecture because they couldn't justify giving up profitable clinic hours to teach only a handful of students. Of course, in human med it is a bit different because there is such a massive industry behind Step prep and the students have access to a huge variety of curated resources (Boards and Beyond, First Aid, etc) that are much more efficient than lecture (although their contribution to complete understanding of a topic is often debatable). This is something that vet med doesn't really have. However, the point stands. if you make it optional, they probably won't come, and they won't watch it if they have better and more efficient resources available. And honestly, I get it - I probably would to. This is rough on the students that come because they will be asked to do more in an interactive setting, otr the activity won't even work because there aren't enough people. It's also hard on the lecturer's morale, and you have people shying away from teaching because why put in all the effort if nobody comes or listens?

We addressed it in two ways - complete active learning (no/minimal lecture - only workshops, PBL, etc - if we are going to get them to come, we HAVE to make it worth their while), and modification of assessment. Our classroom activities often required them to create a group document, concept, map, solve a puzzle, etc. at the end and submit it for a grade. I know that's not always possible because it requires a curricular change, but that's something to think about.

Sidenote - If you want to connect over active learning modalities let me know - that's our bread and butter where I am and I love exchanging ideas.