[Discuss] Lyon College School of Veterinary Medicine, coming soon

[Mr.Smile12]

A new veterinary school is in the works in Arkansas.

School of Veterinary Medicine – Lyon College

campaign.lyon.edu

It appears this program will use a three-year DVM curriculum, similar to Arizona.

Watch for updates.

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[battie]

I will only support if their class is 75%+ in state students or people from contract states that are also paying in state tuition.

I will only support if their distributive model school is *cheaper* than schools in the region that have a teaching hospital.

So far, some of these new schools have hit roadblocks so I've noticed on VIN. So we'll see what actually happens.

 

[supershorty]

I will only support if their class is 75%+ in state students or people from contract states that are also paying in state tuition.

I will only support if their distributive model school is *cheaper* than schools in the region that have a teaching hospital.

So far, some of these new schools have hit roadblocks so I've noticed on VIN. So we'll see what actually happens.

These, plus I don't support any 3 year curricula tbqh. I think it's likely detrimental to mental health, and I have concerns about slamming that much information into that time period.

 

[supershorty]

More veterinary schools won't fix the current problems facing veterinary medicine, which are an overwhelming debt to income ratio and a distribution of vets issue.

Also I'm pretty against new programs being built without teaching hospitals and feel that if they are not SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper than programs with, it's a predatory practice.

 

[topanga_231]

More veterinary schools won't fix the current problems facing veterinary medicine, which are an overwhelming debt to income ratio and a distribution of vets issue.

Also I'm pretty against new programs being built without teaching hospitals and feel that if they are not SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper than programs with, it's a predatory practice.

Do we know why there aren’t more state run / funded schools?

Agree with you re : income and distribution issue, but wondering if it’s ever been explored why states aren’t prioritizing meeting this shortage. I’d imagine lack of funding. Which sucks because ultimately predatory tactics fund the shortage, and of course , it’s the students who pay the price (and hardest hit segments of the field of course )

It’s frustrating that this is a good conversation and point , but what’s the solution?

 

[battie]

Do we know why there aren’t more state run / funded schools?

Money. State and federal funding for higher education has been slipping for decades. I read on VIN that Murray State is estimating a $84 million cost for the school they want to open. That cost doubles if you add a teaching hospital. Then you have long term maintenance, which includes updates every few decades.

It’s frustrating that this is a good conversation and point , but what’s the solution?

Tbh, it's really hard to say.

One thought for all of higher education is to remove the government from the money side of things. There is thought from economists that the nearly unlimited money going from the government to the universities essentially guaranteed means there's no incentive for the universities to keep costs competitive. Even for the most elite schools, they have guaranteed funds regardless of if they accept the rich or the poor student.

There's also no incentive for students to choose cheaper schools for a variety of reasons. The concept of rankings for undergrads for example matters a lot psychologically when it really doesn't have an influence on the vast majority of students long term success. Financial literacy is also quite low among all generations.

If there are limited funds, there's the thought you'd get competitive costs because schools would have to match one another to attract enough students to be financially feasible. Likewise, there's a high risk that "low value" majors or programs would be cut

 

[MixedAnimals77]

It’s frustrating that this is a good conversation and point , but what’s the solution?

If I had a dollar for everytime I got asked this 😅
1) There was a pretty good article and comments from the past AVMA president that I think needs some serious consideration. There's been a 20% growth in the past few years which is likely enough to alieviate the "small animal shortage."
2) I think ancedotely we are starting to see retraction of the profession both in demand and what owners can/want to afford
3) last I counted there were 12ish schools wanting to open which is absurd imo and will lead to oversaturation of the profession. Who is the gate keeper though? (ultimately supply and demand which will be too late) COE is just for standards and aside from denying schools not meeting standards I'm unsure there's truly a way to stop new schools from opening other than 1-lack of teachers 2-lack of support across the profession
4) opening of these new schools is not helpful for the actual issue of rural/ food animal shortage (TT) might be the only university that has opened recently that might actually be addressing this issue but TBD (and honestly I doubt it will be solved until the government (state, feds, or otherwise) steps in with some serious things). It's easy to say yeah I'll do food/rural until you graduate and are staring down 200k+ in loans those hours, small animal sign-on bonuses, and salaries are hard to pass up
5) financial literacy and the dare I say it the "American dream" are the detriment on the applicant side. So many people are told they can do anything they want with their life no matter the cost, but it really takes self dicipline to know even if it is possible doesn't mean one should pursue that for a healthy financial future and retire one day. Most applicants have no plan for their loans in 4 years when they graduate. Bats is right in the government involvement or lack of? being an issue as well almost 9% interest on 60k+ student loans for 4 years while a student is unable to do anything about them is insanity.
On the school side, I think the private schools opening is predatory and only publics should be allowed to open with the stipulation of a VTH that don't already have a school in the state

I deal alot with the question of how do we "solve" the shortage. TBH we as a profession have thrown ALOT of money and time at the issue but nothing we've done has truly made a significant difference. IMO the only true shortage is food animal/rural. How do you fix it? 1-stipulate paid tuition for students to be placed at specific places in the state (this has its own set of issues, but KS has this program) 2-somesort of govt ran programs, potential option is have the vet schools run satelite rotations or have a govt supplemented practice (again issues of their own variety), but short of basically forcing people to set areas they will be perpetually short; the ups and downs of economics and schools already open will settle out the small animal issues given a few years. If someone else has a magical wand for the solution I would love it.

 

[VeggieTrex]

I was digging through VIN a bit too and it looks like Arkansas is also trying to add a second school in the state too. Screams oversaturation to me.

Also not having a teaching hospital is criminal IMO. They are such boons to the community and offer a really important space for research, teaching, and can be (partially) tailored to community needs. Additionally, you're going to bleed future specialists without residency programs neglecting giant aspects of vet med. I would also assume this is an off cycle program too once again messing people up for internships and residencies. I understand the motivation (money) but have a bad feeling for the students.

They also didn't have any information on expected tuition, which makes me think it is 50k+/yr. Lyon is also private I believe so no difference in in/out of state.

 

[JaynaAli]

I was digging through VIN a bit too and it looks like Arkansas is also trying to add a second school in the state too. Screams oversaturation to me.

Also not having a teaching hospital is criminal IMO. They are such boons to the community and offer a really important space for research, teaching, and can be (partially) tailored to community needs. Additionally, you're going to bleed future specialists without residency programs neglecting giant aspects of vet med. I would also assume this is an off cycle program too once again messing people up for internships and residencies. I understand the motivation (money) but have a bad feeling for the students.

They also didn't have any information on expected tuition, which makes me think it is 50k+/yr. Lyon is also private I believe so no difference in in/out of state.

Honestly though, even the “old” schools are struggling to maintain specialists…I can’t imagine 14 or how ever many proposed programs there are going to even attract the bare bones needed for a school (for administration, basic classroom education, etc.) even without the numbers needed to run a hospital. It’s been a huge issue in radiology for a long time and it’s becoming an issue in pathology too. Salaries can be so much more and work life balance better in private practice, and academia is probably gonna be the next crisis situation similar to rural/equine med. My state has a school but it’s terribly understaffed in nearly all small animal specialties, though that is thankfully improving.

I do agree with the sentiments that while it’s been shown a teaching hospital isn’t necessary and distributive model is fine, I think it’s a very valuable part of an education. I wonder just how many practices can absorb all these hospital-less seniors for rotations. And how long will the corporate practices be willing to foot that bill/if they’re being appropriately compensated because fact is, someone in private practice teaching students will significantly slow you down and decrease practice revenue.

I think it’s nice for applicants to have an in-state option when that wasn’t an option for them before, but this seems like a free for all (especially among private/for profit colleges) to just take advantage of student loan dollars and desperate applicants. Even if we currently have a need for more vets or there will be soon, that won’t necessarily always be the case since the profession ebbs and flows over time and if there’s suddenly in 4 years time 1000 extra grads every year for ever and ever always, I’m worried we’ll flip the other way and people won’t be able to find jobs and they’ll be stuck with 300-450k in loans with no job to pay it back. There needs to be some governance over numbers and costs to keep things sustainable but the only current governance seems to be the AVMA COE which is just a ‘meets standards’ guide and doesn’t seem to be looking out for the long term implications (which arguably isn’t their job currently, but who’s is it/should it be?).

 

[MixedAnimals77]

If you are concerned about this issue, I would encourage you to reach out to your AVMA state and district delegates via email. if we start to make enough noise hopefully organizations can put guidance in place before things become an issue in a few years.

 

[battie]

To add:

So many people are told they can do anything they want with their life no matter the cost

This was the worst thing culturally ever taught to Gen X, Millennials, and now Gen Z. The reality didn't hit until people started getting degrees with poor utilization or distribution in society (I'm thinking mostly the arts unfortunately), and that's when people truly had to face the reality that not all degrees and skills are treated equally as far as ROI.

I read recently that Gen Z is starting an uptick in people going for the trades, contributing to the lower enrollment rates at universities. Honestly, if Baby Bats wants to be an electrician, theyre currently making more than me with a fraction of the school. I'll be fully supportive of the "Do a job that gives you the life you want to live". Passion doesn't always pay the bills.

And how long will the corporate practices be willing to foot that bill/if they’re being appropriately compensated because fact is, someone in private practice teaching students will significantly slow you down and decrease practice revenue.

My old hospital and current hospital system do not get paid by the schools as far as I'm aware. I'm actually positive the old hospital didn't get paid as I handled all externship parameters. Yet the schools do report that every hospital they send students to are paid. So there's some shadiness there.

I would also argue that the argument for distributive model schools in that they get "real world experience" is pretty loose. We all know that clinics can have poor mentorship for new grads. Same applies to clinical year students. The quality of externships is harder to maintain than the quality of teaching in a teaching hospital I think. And I had some bad clinician teachers.

My state has a school but it’s terribly understaffed in nearly all small animal specialties, though that is thankfully improving.

All the schools are poorly staffed from bottom to top. Illinois couldn't keep an overnight large animal tech to save their lives. Hasnt had a radiologist truly in the building in years. Just lost ophtho and maybe dentistry. CSU was hiring for an ER clinician at 90k/year plus university benefits a year ago; if the salary has been more reasonable, there would have been a strong discussion with my husband on moving to FoCo. But not for 90k

 

[VeggieTrex]

I am also concerned with this many new schools opening at once, the odds that one (or more) schools will fail to gain full accreditation. Arizona only had a 72% NAVLE pass rate, placing a lot of pressure on their upcoming graduates to do well. There is too much space for one school to completely blow it if 12 schools truly do open up within 2-4 years of each other. Contract fights over clinical spots, key faculty has to step away for any reasons, administration mismanagement, are all real possibilities for new programs. There are so many moving parts to a university that things can just go wrong.

I don't trust it as far as I can throw it.

 

[katiemcat]

I am also concerned with this many new schools opening at once, the odds that one (or more) schools will fail to gain full accreditation. Arizona only had a 72% NAVLE pass rate, placing a lot of pressure on their upcoming graduates to do well. There is too much space for one school to completely blow it if 12 schools truly do open up within 2-4 years of each other. Contract fights over clinical spots, key faculty has to step away for any reasons, administration mismanagement, are all real possibilities for new programs. There are so many moving parts to a university that things can just go wrong.

I don't trust it as far as I can throw it.

Holy cow! Didn’t know that about UAZ’s pass rate. What does it mean for their accreditation ? Also agree with your above point that teaching hospitals are really important for DVM education and for the community (low cost s/n, specialty services, etc.)

 

[RightMeow!]

I am also concerned with this many new schools opening at once, the odds that one (or more) schools will fail to gain full accreditation. Arizona only had a 72% NAVLE pass rate, placing a lot of pressure on their upcoming graduates to do well. There is too much space for one school to completely blow it if 12 schools truly do open up within 2-4 years of each other. Contract fights over clinical spots, key faculty has to step away for any reasons, administration mismanagement, are all real possibilities for new programs. There are so many moving parts to a university that things can just go wrong.

I don't trust it as far as I can throw it.

While i agree with those concerns for new programs, it's also an issue with some of the established programs. Tuskegee in particular had a NAVLE pass rate of 70% in 2021, 64% in 2022, and 57% (!!!) for 2023.

While i disagree with the premise of "we need more vets so open more vet schools", I feel that some of the new programs have the potential to improve on what some students currently have.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

Holy cow! Didn’t know that about UAZ’s pass rate. What does it mean for their accreditation ? Also agree with your above point that teaching hospitals are really important for DVM education and for the community (low cost s/n, specialty services, etc.)

Any school with a deficiency has a certain amount of time to correct the issues and have to present a plan to correct said issues. Should UofA fail to rise to the challenge from my understanding is currently enrolled students would finish out and no new classes would be allowed to be admitted with reasonable accreditation assurance...that being said idk if a school would consider operating unaccredited 🤔 it'd be a different story if we were a foreign country but the coe standards are basically essential for operation in the states because it allows you to sit for the navle and get your license.

 

[battie]

While i agree with those concerns for new programs, it's also an issue with some of the established programs. Tuskegee in particular had a NAVLE pass rate of 70% in 2021, 64% in 2022, and 57% (!!!) for 2023.

While i disagree with the premise of "we need more vets so open more vet schools", I feel that some of the new programs have the potential to improve on what some students currently have.

Any school who is chronically deficient across COE standards should be put on serious probationary status with significant risk of closing. This is regardless of seniority status.

As a side note, attrition rates should also be part of the COE standards. That would likely reduce the student load at the island schools rather quickly.

 

[katiemcat]

While i agree with those concerns for new programs, it's also an issue with some of the established programs. Tuskegee in particular had a NAVLE pass rate of 70% in 2021, 64% in 2022, and 57% (!!!) for 2023.

While i disagree with the premise of "we need more vets so open more vet schools", I feel that some of the new programs have the potential to improve on what some students currently have.

That is CRAZY! I was wondering why my school and some others were implementing “assessments” of students at the end of each years, and I feel like this is related.

 

[katiemcat]

Any school with a deficiency has a certain amount of time to correct the issues and have to present a plan to correct said issues. Should UofA fail to rise to the challenge from my understanding is currently enrolled students would finish out and no new classes would be allowed to be admitted with reasonable accreditation assurance...that being said idk if a school would consider operating unaccredited 🤔 it'd be a different story if we were a foreign country but the coe standards are basically essential for operation in the states because it allows you to sit for the navle and get your license.

I was wondering because I know that they just accepted their next class! Wow. I guess we will see what happens.

 

[topanga_231]

I agree with this re: my kids, but having worked in “trades “ without a union - i will / we will have to see what happens with unions. Unfortunately I think that there are downsides with working in fields like this without union protections. And even with, too. It might be tough to work as someone in a profession which is very physical as they get older.

Not comparing to vet med whatsoever - just this is one of my concerns as a human guiding other humans as they grow.

To add:

This was the worst thing culturally ever taught to Gen X, Millennials, and now Gen Z. The reality didn't hit until people started getting degrees with poor utilization or distribution in society (I'm thinking mostly the arts unfortunately), and that's when people truly had to face the reality that not all degrees and skills are treated equally as far as ROI.

I read recently that Gen Z is starting an uptick in people going for the trades, contributing to the lower enrollment rates at universities. Honestly, if Baby Bats wants to be an electrician, theyre currently making more than me with a fraction of the school. I'll be fully supportive of the "Do a job that gives you the life you want to live". Passion doesn't always pay the bills.

My old hospital and current hospital system do not get paid by the schools as far as I'm aware. I'm actually positive the old hospital didn't get paid as I handled all externship parameters. Yet the schools do report that every hospital they send students to are paid. So there's some shadiness there.

I would also argue that the argument for distributive model schools in that they get "real world experience" is pretty loose. We all know that clinics can have poor mentorship for new grads. Same applies to clinical year students. The quality of externships is harder to maintain than the quality of teaching in a teaching hospital I think. And I had some bad clinician teachers.

All the schools are poorly staffed from bottom to top. Illinois couldn't keep an overnight large animal tech to save their lives. Hasnt had a radiologist truly in the building in years. Just lost ophtho and maybe dentistry. CSU was hiring for an ER clinician at 90k/year plus university benefits a year ago; if the salary has been more reasonable, there would have been a strong discussion with my husband on moving to FoCo. But not for 90k

 

[battie]

That is CRAZY! I was wondering why my school and some others were implementing “assessments” of students at the end of each years, and I feel like this is related.

The schools I think are required to find where they think the problem lies and how they're fixing it; but I would have to double check. It's also possible there are schools in the 80%+ range who don't want to get to the other side and are being proactive.

I agree with this re: my kids, but having worked in “trades “ without a union - i will / we will have to see what happens with unions. Unfortunately I think that there are downsides with working in fields like this without union protections. And even with, too. It might be tough to work as someone in a profession which is very physical as they get older.

Not comparing to vet med whatsoever - just this is one of my concerns as a human guiding other humans as they grow.

Agreed, and we see this in vet med. Older doctors go to more slow paced and less physical parts of medicine. Let alone the techs and assistants who leave much earlier.

Likewise, the goal for anyone in a job like this or is otherwise high paying would be to be to save aggressively in a retirement account, annuity, etc. so that they can go to part time and supplement their income prior to retirement. How easy that is for someone is up in the air. Tony Bartels recommends we try to save 10%+ of our income in retirement funds

 

[AuburnVet]

The schools I think are required to find where they think the problem lies and how they're fixing it; but I would have to double check. It's also possible there are schools in the 80%+ range who don't want to get to the other side and are being proactive.

Agreed, and we see this in vet med. Older doctors go to more slow paced and less physical parts of medicine. Let alone the techs and assistants who leave much earlier.

Likewise, the goal for anyone in a job like this or is otherwise high paying would be to be to save aggressively in a retirement account, annuity, etc. so that they can go to part time and supplement their income prior to retirement. How easy that is for someone is up in the air. Tony Bartels recommends we try to save 10%+ of our income in retirement funds

Personally I recommend 25% plus of gross pay should be saved for retirement

 

[battie]

Personally I recommend 25% plus of gross pay should be saved for retirement

I mean, the more money the better cause retiring or going part time at 50 sounds awesome right now. Just don't think it's feasible for 75% of the population. Even among vets, the goal of 25% gross going to any sort of non-spending account is going to be a non-starter for the majority.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I mean, the more money the better cause retiring or going part time at 50 sounds awesome right now. Just don't think it's feasible for 75% of the population. Even among vets, the goal of 25% gross going to any sort of non-spending account is going to be a non-starter for the majority.

Thanks for saying this in a much nicer way than I was going to, lol.

 

[battie]

Thanks for saying this in a much nicer way than I was going to, lol.

I have parents who will never be able to retire unless my grandparents leave them a decent chunk of change. The assumption that people living on 56k/year (the average American) can save 25% of that for retirement is out of touch.

 

[JaynaAli]

I have parents who will never be able to retire unless my grandparents leave them a decent chunk of change. The assumption that people living on 56k/year (the average American) can save 25% of that for retirement is out of touch.

The only people I know able to save that much don’t have kids, don’t have student loans (either never had any or they’re paid off), and they either live in a crazy low cost of living area or bought/inherited a home years ago. Sure it’s ideal and some of us can save that much, but yeah…not realistic for everyone when the stats say like 70% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and like a third of people have no emergency fund and couldn’t afford a $1,000 emergency. Veterinarians may be in an above average salary bracket and able to save more than average, but life is expensive and only getting worse!

 

[battie]

The only people I know able to save that much don’t have kids, don’t have student loans (either never had any or they’re paid off), and they either live in a crazy low cost of living area or bought/inherited a home years ago. Sure it’s ideal and some of us can save that much, but yeah…not realistic for everyone when the stats say like 70% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and like a third of people have no emergency fund and couldn’t afford a $1,000 emergency. Veterinarians may be in an above average salary bracket and able to save more than average, but life is expensive and only getting worse!

Part of why we're only having one child is because of cost. I am highly paranoid of the long term costs and if there's a major emergency where either one child or my husband would have a financially intensive need long term. I can afford the three of us in such a situation; I could not if we have two.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Part of why I'm not even having any is cost. Of course there are other reasons, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it factored in as the cherry on top of the decision to not.

I'm able to save 25% of my income because 1) I don't have children and do not plan to have any, 2) I live in a low COL area, 3) I am lucky enough to not have expensive/long-term personal heath problems, 4) I don't have other family members I need to support financially, 5) I have a partner who also brings supplemental income into the household, 6) even though I do pay student loans to the tune of 1200 a month, I make 3x the average American's salary. All of those things together put me in an extremely niche and privileged segment of the population who is able to do so. We can suggest whatever we want, but the reality is that its not feasible for most.