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Definitely not a right, anything that requires another persons work and labor is not a right.
Policy Discussion-Is healthcare a right?
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deleted927028
People who currently work in healthcare will become either government employees or contractors.
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deleted927028
Whatever policies we decide and come up with should be only for citizens. All the illegals should be deported regardless of age. We should make it mandatory to check the status of all individuals for all employments. Police should be given the power to ask for legal documents from any individual. During any transaction both parties should present their documents of legal status. Otherwise we can as well rescind all immigration laws and ICE.
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deleted480308
Ahhhh, so you don’t think healthcare is a natural right?
You think it’s a privilege of citizenship?
Keeping those under 65 not fully covered, as in dental, vision, drugs, is pretty much centrist by international standard.
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It’s also “international standard” that you don’t get a knee replacement if you are morbidly obese, you don’t sue your doctor for every bad outcome and you don’t get to decide if your 90 yo grandma stays on the vent for 2 months. While we are at it, it’s also “international standard” that doctors pay a pittance for medical education and you don’t pay for drugs or surgeries that have questionable or small benefits over a population.
Tell the American people to change those things and also to stop competing for the fattest nation by a 250% margin - then we can do Medicare for all.... without that it’s literally a good way to destroy the country economically. Mercia.... can’t have it both ways.
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deleted480308
I clearly don’t care about the international model
Then your idea(s)' pretty much outdated and stuck in the 19th century.
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Nah
How is Medicare-4-All going to destroy the country's economy? When it comes through taxes from a tiny tax increase on regular people and eliminating the "private tax" of health insurance and overpriced healthcare service.
You know what stagnates and hurts the economy more: medical debt and overpriced premiums.
You guys got this weird mentality of this world that we live in. Thinking universal healthcare, single-payer, doesn't exist, doesn't work. Stop with this conservative economic propaganda and realize that right-wing conservative economic approach doesn't work and will not work in today's world. It's already been proven multiple times through modern history and in recent times.
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deleted480308
The market works if you let it, you just don’t get to define “working” as everyone gets everything they want as soon as they want it
So, you're saying "let's go back to the free-market laissez-faire healthcare model prior to Obamacare that was a complete disaster" then counter with "more deregulation." That is maddening that no conservative average Joe voter wants.
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deleted480308
Are you seriously describing pre-ACA as laissez-faire? Because that means you are incorrect
Well, yeah. Because government didn't want to get involve and solve the healthcare crisis until politicians were pressured to do something alas giving us the conservative healthcare reform with no public option.
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deleted480308
You’re just plain wrong about that. There was already soooooo much govt involvement and interference in health care that it simply cannot be honestly called laissez faire.
Emtala, certificate of need, medicare, medicaid, employer based insurance, professional licensing, issues like demanding new albuterol when the old worked...it’s not laissez faire
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AnatomyGrey12
It’s amazing how you post so much and yet every time you are straight up wrong. Like it’s not even debatable most of the time, you’re just wrong.
I'm talking about the friggin' healthcare model, not regulation of a procedure of a toe amputation.
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deleted480308
Explain to me how those things aren’t huge govt interference in the market of healthcare?
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It's amazing the variety of people that have said that too. You and I and sb have all been on opposite sides in arguments pretty frequently yet we all agree on this.
Even surfing doctor made an appearance saying the same thing.
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What do you expect from someone who knows literally nothing about the subject they express opinions about?
If I studied for a few days then discussed my “educated” opinions on the field of astrophysics, the words coming out of my mouth would also be gibberish.... the only difference is that I would know it’s gibberish.
As the clock ticks, things continue to worsen with countries that have "universal" coverage
"Canada's wait times break new record - 21.2 weeks to medical treatment" "The median wait time in Canada is 21.2 week between referral from a family doctor to receipt of treatment. That’s the longest — about 128% longer — Fraser Institute has ever recorded and since it has been tracking wait times since 1993."
Canada's wait times break new record - 21.2 weeks: Fraser Institute
Canadians waiting for medical attention are faced with record-breaking wait times – and it doesn’t appear to be getting any better, according to the Fraser…
"Wait times at Ontario hospitals climbed to record high this summer, data shows"
"Canadian health care's 'one issue per visit' problem"
"GPs to see patients in groups of 15"
GPs to see patients in groups of 15
Patients will be expected to see their GPs in groups of up to 15 under plans being considered by the NHS.
www.telegraph.co.uk
"...a prominent retired neurologist, died in the waiting room of the emergency department at Royal Inland Hospital in Kamloops, B.C., because, she says, he didn't get the help he needed."
"Record numbers of patients are not getting vital cancer care on time because NHS England performance against waiting time targets has fallen to its lowest ever level, according to official figures. "
Waiting times for NHS cancer treatment are at worst ever level
Record 20,000 patients a month are suffering delays in seeing a consultant or starting therapies
"NHS England restricts patients' access to cataract removal"
NHS England restricts patients' access to cataract removal
RNIB says ‘shocking’ rationing severely affects people’s ability to lead independent lives
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What are you basing your assumption that Medicare could be expanded to cover everyone by just a "tiny increase"in taxes? Also, how do you expect that it would solve the problem of medical debt when Medicare requires you pay a premium and also 20% of whatever covered care is received (and 100% of whatever they won't cover) for part B (and different amounts for part A that go up as you require more hospitalization) as well as different amounts for drug coverage.
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deleted941485
Trust me if its only a small increase in taxes to pay for M4A its basically gonna be an unfunded mandate. Only a tiny increase LOL right just like federal income taxes were supposed to be confined to the well healed. Also, Im not buying the whole idea that medical debt is somehow stifling the US economy to any appreciable extent. The booms and busts this economy has experienced in the last 20 years havent been because of medical bankruptcy but rather feverishly overvalued realestate, a stock bubble, and crazy loose credit.
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deleted927028
Yes, healthcare is a natural right but in their country. I can’t walk into your house uninvited and demand the same rights as your family members. It is like voting. It is a natural right too but only in your country
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deleted927028
I know I have beaten this horse to death. We are going in circles. Tiny tax increase or big tax increase, but surely it will be a lot cheaper than the current scenario. Proof? Look into other countries. We don’t have to reinvent the circle. If we give the Medicare authorities all the power they need to negotiate, the cost will crash. We make it illegal even for them to negotiate but we are ready to complain that they are inefficient, ineffective and expensive. We have to be honest while making arguments.
Personally, I believe we will be able to manage with tiny increase in taxes for employees and a tax on employers in proportion to what they are cpaying for health insurance now or even a lot lowering. It is basic math.
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deleted941485
If it’s a natural right then how is it limited to the country you live in?
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We can look at other countries and see they pay much higher taxes. We can look at current Medicare taxes paid and the struggle to pay for current members, hence an ever increasing number of ways they try to avoid paying providers or pay them less. Again, what are you basing your assumption that it will end up cheaper?
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deleted480308
That’s not what those words mean. What do you think natural rights are?
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Way too much of the same views. Nothing will be decided. 1/3 would hate it, 1/3 would be fine, 1/3 would love it. No matter what system you put in, these ratios likely will not change.
Anyhow, I will add my thoughts.
1. Everyone already have access to basic healthcare and no one will ever be denied the rights to emergency healthcare. That is what you call the ER and if you need further treatment, you get admitted.
This is my list of level of importance to the majority of people who would pay before paying for healthcare.
1. Water - Why isn't water Free for all? If you can't pay, you can go drink from the emergency faucet on the streets similar to the ER
2. Food - Why isn't food free for all? If you can't pay, you can go to the food bank similar to the ER
3. Place to live - Why isn't housing free for all? If you can't pay, you either go to shelters or live on the street.
4. Cell phone service - Why isn't this free for all? Trust me, if you asked the majority if you had $100 they would keep their cell service on before purchasing health insurance
5. Internet service - See #4
6. Car & Car insurance - See #4
7. Cable TV - See #4
The vast majority of people complain that they don't have health insurance not because they can't afford it, its because they chose not to purchase it. They want an extra Freebee and make it a right so they don't have to pay for it.
Anyhow, I will add my thoughts.
1. Everyone already have access to basic healthcare and no one will ever be denied the rights to emergency healthcare. That is what you call the ER and if you need further treatment, you get admitted.
This is my list of level of importance to the majority of people who would pay before paying for healthcare.
1. Water - Why isn't water Free for all? If you can't pay, you can go drink from the emergency faucet on the streets similar to the ER
2. Food - Why isn't food free for all? If you can't pay, you can go to the food bank similar to the ER
3. Place to live - Why isn't housing free for all? If you can't pay, you either go to shelters or live on the street.
4. Cell phone service - Why isn't this free for all? Trust me, if you asked the majority if you had $100 they would keep their cell service on before purchasing health insurance
5. Internet service - See #4
6. Car & Car insurance - See #4
7. Cable TV - See #4
The vast majority of people complain that they don't have health insurance not because they can't afford it, its because they chose not to purchase it. They want an extra Freebee and make it a right so they don't have to pay for it.
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The US spends the most per Capita of any country and our outcome/life expectancy is middle of the industrialized road. When you read this, you think that we are overpaying for avg healthcare. That is what the ignorant public hears coming from left leaning ignorant politicians and the MSM.
The US healthcare has the highest standard and best access of any country bar none. We have the best colleges, training, physicians, hospitals and this is why Rich people fly from Developed countries to get treatment in the US.
Our Avg healthcare has everything to do with the Fat unhealthly living matter that walks our streets and you can't make a solid structure out of fatty playdoh.
Go to a US restaurant like Cheescake factories. Look at people eating. They get a coke, appetizer, a full meal, and desert and this is for 1 PERSON. I go to Cheesecake and my family of 5 share one appetizer, I drink water, Share a low cal meal with the wife, and never eat desert. I am full halfway through the main course and bring the rest home. Go to Europe, if they got the same portion, there would be a revolt.
The last 30 yrs, I have religiously ran 3 miles every other day, done triathalons, done marathons. I take care of my body. If everyone worked to be healthy, the US life expectancy would be a standard deviation above any country including heath outcome.
I don't see why it is a person's right to
1. Need hospitalization for hypertensive emergency b/c they decided to stop taking their BP meds
2. Need hospitalization for DKA b/c they decided to stop taking insulin
3. MI b/c they are morbidly obese
4. COPD b/c they didn't want to stop smoking
95% of our health issues is related to lazy people who have poor diet, sedentary, and care more about watching the bachelor than working out.
The US healthcare has the highest standard and best access of any country bar none. We have the best colleges, training, physicians, hospitals and this is why Rich people fly from Developed countries to get treatment in the US.
Our Avg healthcare has everything to do with the Fat unhealthly living matter that walks our streets and you can't make a solid structure out of fatty playdoh.
Go to a US restaurant like Cheescake factories. Look at people eating. They get a coke, appetizer, a full meal, and desert and this is for 1 PERSON. I go to Cheesecake and my family of 5 share one appetizer, I drink water, Share a low cal meal with the wife, and never eat desert. I am full halfway through the main course and bring the rest home. Go to Europe, if they got the same portion, there would be a revolt.
The last 30 yrs, I have religiously ran 3 miles every other day, done triathalons, done marathons. I take care of my body. If everyone worked to be healthy, the US life expectancy would be a standard deviation above any country including heath outcome.
I don't see why it is a person's right to
1. Need hospitalization for hypertensive emergency b/c they decided to stop taking their BP meds
2. Need hospitalization for DKA b/c they decided to stop taking insulin
3. MI b/c they are morbidly obese
4. COPD b/c they didn't want to stop smoking
95% of our health issues is related to lazy people who have poor diet, sedentary, and care more about watching the bachelor than working out.
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deleted927028
It is not fair to just compare total taxes of ours with other countries in isolation but you should look into what they get in return. We might paying a little less in taxes compared to them but we pay a lot lot more in fees, premiums, copays, deductibles, college tuition, daycare expenses, a lot less vacation etc. you have to have a open, balanced mind and a heart to recognize the faults in our system to have a meaningful conversation.
I am not assuming that it will be cheaper, it is just a plain fact. Just compare how much a family of four pay in premiums, copays, deductibles etc with how much it costs for a family of four in other countries. Also compare the drug prices. I have many friends in Canada, UK, etc. I get accurate picture from them. They laugh out loud if I tell them about how the media brainwashes people here, like sky high taxes, waiting time , govt bureaucracy, death panels etc. They are just unadulterated lies.
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Except they're not.
Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada, 2018 Report
Waiting times for NHS cancer treatment are at worst ever level
Record 20,000 patients a month are suffering delays in seeing a consultant or starting therapies
My daughter's medication isn't available for patients in Britain's single-payer system
Trump was right to question the UK's National Health Service. Single-payer health care prevents patients from procuring drugs to live longer and well.
www.usatoday.com
Taxation Rates Australia - Comparison to USA, UK
Find more about Australian Taxation - Get a Complete Breakdown of All Tax Considerations.
sendmoneyaustralia.com
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The bolded is your incorrect assumption. If they impose a scheme like Germany's 15% of income cost then I would have paid a lot more for worse coverage than what I used to pay (when I was self funding my insurance) and most people would be paying more than they currently do (because it is mandatory and I think automatically taken out as opposed to here where lots of people just go bare and rely on staying healthy or just using the er). The UK version would save some people money but would drastically raise my costs.
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I did some research just to back up my assertion that the US have fantastic healthcare. Data from 2018 by country.
We are ranked #31 in life expectancy out of 183.
We are ranked #17 in Obesity out of 190
Obesity is one of the biggest risk factors for early death.
So the US should be ranked in the 160's for life expectancy given that we are the 17th Fattest country. What accounts for the fact that instead of being in the 160's, we are 31 in life expectancy?
Countries in the 160's avg life expectancy is about 62 Yrs of age but the US has it at around 79 Yrs old.
I doubt any other countries healthcare can add 17 Extra years of life given how unhealthy our population is.
Look at # 1 Japan that has the highest life expectancy at 83 Yrs old. They are #166 obese country out of 190. You would expect their life expectancy to be about #24 or 81 Yrs old.
Japan spends $5k/capita, US 10K/capita.
So I would say for the bang for the buck, the USA has vastly superior healthcare compared to Japan. We extend people lives by about 17 years vs Japan only 2 Yrs.
We spend a scant $588 to add an extra yr to life expectancy. Japan spends $2500 to add an extra yr.
I think Japan needs to fix their health system b/c they are are wasting alot of money to add only a few extra yrs of life.
We are ranked #31 in life expectancy out of 183.
We are ranked #17 in Obesity out of 190
Obesity is one of the biggest risk factors for early death.
So the US should be ranked in the 160's for life expectancy given that we are the 17th Fattest country. What accounts for the fact that instead of being in the 160's, we are 31 in life expectancy?
Countries in the 160's avg life expectancy is about 62 Yrs of age but the US has it at around 79 Yrs old.
I doubt any other countries healthcare can add 17 Extra years of life given how unhealthy our population is.
Look at # 1 Japan that has the highest life expectancy at 83 Yrs old. They are #166 obese country out of 190. You would expect their life expectancy to be about #24 or 81 Yrs old.
Japan spends $5k/capita, US 10K/capita.
So I would say for the bang for the buck, the USA has vastly superior healthcare compared to Japan. We extend people lives by about 17 years vs Japan only 2 Yrs.
We spend a scant $588 to add an extra yr to life expectancy. Japan spends $2500 to add an extra yr.
I think Japan needs to fix their health system b/c they are are wasting alot of money to add only a few extra yrs of life.
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deleted927028
Bernie Sanders should print out this article and send a copy to every household, every media outlet, all senators and congressmen, everyone who says Medicare-for-all is expensive, requires steep tax hike and we can’t afford and anyone who basically whines about it. If he talks about these numbers openly every time, no one can stop him becoming the president.
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Taking any information from the washington post should disqualify you from voting.
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deleted927028
Well, actually I was literally shocked to see a balanced article on Bernie Sanders from them. I had to pinch myself. So I share the same opinion about them as you do.
Regarding your comment, why don’t you just point out what is wrong in that article instead of rejecting it summarily?
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deleted480308
It’s another crappy excuse to take money from the economic producers and give to everyone else
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A newspaper that has recently been spreading fake news to push their agenda is not a newspaper I need to read. I am not a Pro Trumper by any means but so called unbiased newspapers/cable channels are unwatchable. The do not just report the news, just give their opinions disguised as unbiased news.
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Whats new? What would the democratic platform be without giving to the poor? Its their voter base and only way they will get elected.
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The article has a bunch of fantasy make-up numbers, while ignoring the BASIC, UNAVOIDABLE truth that none of the liberal democrats acknowledge or even mention in passing. When you make something "free" by eliminating copays, coinsurance etc, you INCREASE DEMAND. This goes for "free" healthcare, "free" college and "free" burgers. Demand for healthcare can be infinite, and people have infinite stupidity. Biden is probably underestimating that Sanders plan will double the federal budget... hell --- if there is zero cost to me I might as well go in every_single_friggin day of the week to my PCP for my hangnail to make sure it's getting better! And I will definitely see the hangnail specialist twice a day as well.
I don't believe Sanders is quite that stupid. If you move to medicare (or any system) for all, while eliminating copays/deductibles/premiums, there is only 1 way to make the cost not IMMEDIATELY increase by over 1000%.... and that is strict rationing. Which is how other countries do it. Make no mistake they will tell you who you can see (specialist or PCP), when you can see them (wait times) and what's covered/not. And its the government- don't like it- tough, no appeals!
If rationing is done correctly then it could be OK... but #1 be HONEST upfront about it (don't lie like most of the democrats) and #2 who trusts the government to ration their care?
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Did you actually read/inderstand the whole article? It acknowledges that quite a lot of people would pay a lot more. It assumes a family of 4 with a 50k salary is currently paying for insurance and switches and further assumes the employer passes the decrease on to them so they come out ahead, but the single people are unchanged and everyone making more than that gets a worse deal. Except that family of 4 might not currently opt for insurance so they end up financially worse by the mandatory taxes. And even of they did have coverage it doesn't take into account what kind of plan they have, so if they were on an hmo plan similar to mine and have high utilization they would end up with higher out of pocket costs using medicare (due to the 20% coinsurance and the other ways that they cover less than hmo plans do) that could eat up their savings while people like me who pay more and get worse coverage are double screwed.
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Wait, are all these medicare for all people claiming they are going to eliminate the premiums, coinsurance, and other ways people on medicare pay money out of pocket for care?
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deleted927028
I agree with you 100% here.
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Mostly, yes
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Ah, so basically they are going to make it more like medicaid for all. So the costs will go up even more or the reimbursement will go down and access will be an issue and people will have to pay extra for better coverage.
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No no no, don't you see its going to be more like all the European countries.
The ones where a 40% income tax bracket starts at around 50k/year (In Sweden its 60%).
Oh and the 12% NHS tax in the UK or the 8% premium in Germany.
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Germany has a almost 15% mandatory tax for people earning under a certain amount. It is capped at a certain income though.
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That's Germany for you
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deleted927028
The following is one of the reader comments from Australia. I hear similar things from my friends in UK and Canada. If Australia can achieve healthcare for all with 2% tax , why can’t we? Why it is so hard to understand and recognize?
“
Im australian. We have an excellent medical system. We have what you call "medicare for all". It costs taxpaters a 2% levy on their salary and wages . If you are above a certain income level ($180,000 pa I think) you have to have a private health insurance policy that has hospital cover. That costs about $120 a month - so about $1300 pa. If you dont have that then you get an extra 2% levy. In addition you can get exemptions and rebates for the levies.
In return for all that you get usually free doctors visits, including specialists. Free surgery (although for elective surgery there is usually a waiting list of a few months), free emergency treatments, very cheap prescriptions, free eye and dental care (although there are exceptions on that). On my private insurance i have free hospital cover on most procedures as well as my choice of surgeon and private rooms in the hospital.
So a 2% pa levy on income and about A$1300 pa on private insurance. Thats it.
What I have in my country is far superior to what you have in your country - and far less expensive.
This is easy to do in reality. The only thing that makes it hard is all the stupid, deranged, and crazy people in america.
By the way, if you came to my country and had an accident you would probably go to emergency. When you get there youre likely to find the hospital will quietly waive the fees that you - as a foreigner - should pay. Thats called being a human. Something you clearly are not.”
