Policy Discussion-Is healthcare a right?

[Throwawaycall]

Yeah, if they are kings, presidents, prime ministers, multimillionaires , they can afford to come here. But not everyone is that fortunate.

Do you know that roughly 650000 Americans go bankrupt EVERY YESR because of getting sick? Do you know the number of Americans go abroad for treatment , even the ones that have insurance? Do you know how many import drugs from foreign countries, even the ones have insurance, because it is much cheaper? I am one of them.

every system has some pluses and minuses. Honestly I don’t find even one positive thing in the American system. Whatever the little positive things you may see, is not because of the current system but in spite of it.

Do you know that nobody takes you seriously

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[and 99 others]

You have good thoughts. I would add if you are a druggy skank you have made poor decisions for yourself and should not be given any rights to healthcare though. Once your doctor cares more about your health than you do you have become a lost cause.
Painful truths

Well that's unfair because no one really chooses that lifestyle. Sure, they make poor decisions initially that lead to them becoming addicted and force them into self-destructive, risky behaviors. But to just cast aside a whole group of people as not having the right to healthcare because they made mistakes is pretty callous.

 

[GH253]

Well that's unfair because no one really chooses that lifestyle. Sure, they make poor decisions initially that lead to them becoming addicted and force them into self-destructive, risky behaviors. But to just cast aside a whole group of people as not having the right to healthcare because they made mistakes is pretty callous.

The reason healthcare is not a right is not because some people make mistakes. Health care is not a right of anyone, responsible or not. That some people need healthcare and can't pay for it because of their own irresponsibility illustrates the injustice of socialized medicine. A lot fewer people would choose to be irresponsible of they weren't conditioned from a young age to expect the government to pay for the consequences of their mistakes.

 

[Throwawaycall]

Well that's unfair because no one really chooses that lifestyle. Sure, they make poor decisions initially that lead to them becoming addicted and force them into self-destructive, risky behaviors. But to just cast aside a whole group of people as not having the right to healthcare because they made mistakes is pretty callous.

I painted the line at when your physician cares more about your health than you do. Aka after a period of time of receiving good advice/care and one refuses to listen. What are we suppose to do hand hold for a decade?
This is not callous it is reality

 

[Throwawaycall]

I demand my right to a ford raptor and others should have to pay for it!

 

[and 99 others]

The reason healthcare is not a right is not because some people make mistakes. Health care is not a right of anyone, responsible or not. That some people need healthcare and can't pay for it because of their own irresponsibility illustrates the injustice of socialized medicine. A lot fewer people would choose to be irresponsible of they weren't conditioned from a young age to expect the government to pay for the consequences of their mistakes.

Except americans are the furthest from being conditioned from a young age to think that the government will pay for their healthcare. Quite the opposite actually. And yet, that doesn't stop people from being "irresponsible"

 

[and 99 others]

I painted the line at when your physician cares more about your health than you do. Aka after a period of time of receiving good advice/care and one refuses to listen. What are we suppose to do hand hold for a decade?
This is not callous it is reality

What ARE we supposed to do, then?

When a drug addict overdoses and their family calls an ambulance, should the doctor say, "nope. I already tried to get him to stop taking drugs he didn't listen. send him away"

 

[Throwawaycall]

What ARE we supposed to do, then?

When a drug addict overdoses and their family calls an ambulance, should the doctor say, "nope. I already tried to get him to stop taking drugs he didn't listen. send him away"

Three strikes and you are out. If you do not care enough about yourself why should we. It’s not a question of if I want to help him. Yes I do even if it’s number ten hence why I am in medicine. But the taxpayer and other consumer of healthcare should not absorb the cost.
as a physician I can agree we may have a moral obligation to treat but it should not be at a cost of more than our time NOR tax payer dollar

 

[and 99 others]

Three strikes and you are out. If you do not care enough about yourself why should we. It’s not a question of if I want to help him. Yes I do even if it’s number ten hence why I am in medicine. But the taxpayer and other consumer of healthcare should not absorb the cost.

I'm just trying to understand fully. If a patient comes to your ED alone for the 4th time for a life-threatening, drug-related condition, you are going to...what? Instruct the nurses to wheelchair him to the sidewalk? Wait for him to die in the waiting room and then send him to the morgue? I can't interpret "you are out" in any way other than leave the patient to die.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Well that's unfair because no one really chooses that lifestyle. Sure, they make poor decisions initially that lead to them becoming addicted and force them into self-destructive, risky behaviors. But to just cast aside a whole group of people as not having the right to healthcare because they made mistakes is pretty callous.

I have no objection to taking care of anyone, even those who make poor decisions (because no one is perfect).

What really gets me are the people who don't want to help themselves. Example: I have a diabetic patient who gets her insulin for free from the drug company. Every year she has to fill out the PAP form. This year she decided that it was my job to do it. Not just the physician part but her home address, financial information, she brought in a blank form and told me to fill everything out. I filled in my part and my nurse filled in her demographics but we told her that we couldn't fill in the financial part and she'd have to do that. She promptly threw it in the trash can and accused of us not caring about her health.

She doesn't deserve government funded health care. I'm sorry but she just doesn't. I'll go way out of my way to help patients with stuff like this - I'll download and print the forms, I'll research cash prices to find the best deals, but I won't do every single thing for them.

 

[Throwawaycall]

What ARE we supposed to do, then?

When a drug addict overdoses and their family calls an ambulance, should the doctor say, "nope. I already tried to get him to stop taking drugs he didn't listen. send him away"

Not sure

the gray part is that these patients probably have almost always some psych or personality disorder that makes them incompatible or near incompatible for society. TBH in order to save the country by being overrun with these people I am not sure what we can ethically do. Some people just do not have the capacity to be a functioning member of society and I am not sure how long we can keep supporting this larger and larger group. Unfortunately they like to reproduce. A lot.

throwing unlimited resources at them and letting them run the streets and procreate is doing no one any good. But I don’t want to say we should just let them die off from their own choices. It’s a tough call. Idiocracy is coming closer and closer

patients such as one discussed by VA probably just need to fend for themselves. At least if it was up to me. If you want to die you can die. Free country

 

[Throwawaycall]

I have no objection to taking care of anyone, even those who make poor decisions (because no one is perfect).

What really gets me are the people who don't want to help themselves. Example: I have a diabetic patient who gets her insulin for free from the drug company. Every year she has to fill out the PAP form. This year she decided that it was my job to do it. Not just the physician part but her home address, financial information, she brought in a blank form and told me to fill everything out. I filled in my part and my nurse filled in her demographics but we told her that we couldn't fill in the financial part and she'd have to do that. She promptly threw it in the trash can and accused of us not caring about her health.

She doesn't deserve government funded health care. I'm sorry but she just doesn't. I'll go way out of my way to help patients with stuff like this - I'll download and print the forms, I'll research cash prices to find the best deals, but I won't do every single thing for them.

Guess she doesn’t want free insulin. /discharge

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Or, maybe she doesn't know how to read and someone else filled in the forms for her last time but they are no longer available. And she's too embarrassed to say that. Would that change anyone's opinion?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Or, maybe she doesn't know how to read and someone else filled in the forms for her last time but they are no longer available. And she's too embarrassed to say that. Would that change anyone's opinion?

Except she's not

 

[dpmd]

Or, maybe she doesn't know how to read and someone else filled in the forms for her last time but they are no longer available. And she's too embarrassed to say that. Would that change anyone's opinion?

No. I feel sorry if someone can't read or figure out how to fill out a form correctly. I have plenty of patients with limited English skills who require help with forms sometimes. You know what they do? They shyly (and probably embarrassedly) ask for help before or after trying their best. Ignorance does not excuse rudeness.

 

[deleted480308]

What ARE we supposed to do, then?

When a drug addict overdoses and their family calls an ambulance, should the doctor say, "nope. I already tried to get him to stop taking drugs he didn't listen. send him away"

Bill the family and actually follow through on the bill

 

[and 99 others]

Bill the family and actually follow through on the bill

????
The family isn't the one being treated. What if the person who calls the ambulance is a stranger and just happened on the addict in the street? Do you bill the stranger?

 

[deleted480308]

????
The family isn't the one being treated. What if the person who calls the ambulance is a stranger and just happened on the addict in the street? Do you bill the stranger?

Now you are changing the scenario. Whoever is demanding treatment should pay, it's not complicated

 

[deleted941485]

Now you are changing the scenario. Whoever is demanding treatment should pay, it's not complicated

It’s made complicated because you as the doctor should assume all the risk for treating the patient and then when you treat them be nickel and dimed on the back end by the govt or the insurance company when you come to collect. Then the patient huffs and puffs when they get a bill.

 

[and 99 others]

Now you are changing the scenario. Whoever is demanding treatment should pay, it's not complicated

This makes no sense at all. If the patient is incapacitated how can they possibly demand treatment? You're basically penalizing whoever calls an ambulance at that point. I'm changing the scenario to highlight how insufficient your suggestion is as a feasible course of action; someone seems someone else unconscious on the sidewalk because of an overdose--or anything at all really--and has to decide whether they leave a stranger to die or call an ambulance and subsequently...pay for that strangers emergency care? Seems totally reasonable.

 

[deleted480308]

This makes no sense at all. If the patient is incapacitated how can they possibly demand treatment? You're basically penalizing whoever calls an ambulance at that point. I'm changing the scenario to highlight how insufficient your suggestion is as a feasible course of action; someone seems someone else unconscious on the sidewalk because of an overdose--or anything at all really--and has to decide whether they leave a stranger to die or call an ambulance and subsequently...pay for that strangers emergency care? Seems totally reasonable.

oh dear, you want to turn a talk about general policy into a weirdly specific and reasonably rare scenario? I'm disinterested in the request

The overarching principle here is that healthcare isn't a right and people should have to pay for things they use. I say that knowing that not everyone can afford everything.

 

[and 99 others]

oh dear, you want to turn a talk about general policy into a weirdly specific and reasonably rare scenario? I'm disinterested in the request

The overarching principle here is that healthcare isn't a right and people should have to pay for things they use. I say that knowing that not everyone can afford everything.

My point is that a family calling an ambulance for someone who can't call for it themselves (not a rare scenario) and then making the family foot the bill is just as absurd as a stranger calling an ambulance for someone who can't call for it themselves (also not really a rare scenario at all, but ok let's go with that) and then making the stranger pay foot the bill.

You say people should have to pay for things they use and then go on to give an example of someone paying for something someone else uses. I understand that the overarching principle you're purporting is "healthcare isn't a right". But countering every point someone makes in response to that by repeating "because healthcare isn't a right" again and not actually addressing any points isn't an argument, it's an escape.

 

[deleted480308]

My point is that a family calling an ambulance for someone who can't call for it themselves (not a rare scenario) and then making the family foot the bill is just as absurd as a stranger calling an ambulance for someone who can't call for it themselves (also not really a rare scenario at all, but ok let's go with that) and then making the stranger pay foot the bill.

You say people should have to pay for things they use and then go on to give an example of someone paying for something someone else uses. I understand that the overarching principle you're purporting is "healthcare isn't a right". But countering every point someone makes in response to that by repeating "because healthcare isn't a right" again and not actually addressing any points isn't an argument, it's an escape.

It is actually quite common for the family to call and then show up demanding services for that family member. If the family member can’t pay and the family still wants to demand, they need to pay.

 

[inspirationmd]

Three strikes and you are out. If you do not care enough about yourself why should we. It’s not a question of if I want to help him. Yes I do even if it’s number ten hence why I am in medicine. But the taxpayer and other consumer of healthcare should not absorb the cost.
as a physician I can agree we may have a moral obligation to treat but it should not be at a cost of more than our time NOR tax payer dollar

This was suggested and debated for some time. The proposing councilman withdrew his proposal after hearing from the city’s lawyers on their opinion. He didn’t make the opinion public but I can guess what it was.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/06/28/a-council-members-solution-to-his-ohio-towns-overdose-problem-let-addicts-die/%3foutputType=amp

Ohio councilman: After 2 overdoses, no more EMS

City manager says under state law aid must be given.

www.google.com

 

[deleted480308]

This was suggested and debated for some time. The proposing councilman withdrew his proposal after hearing from the city’s lawyers on their opinion. He didn’t make the opinion public but I can guess what it was.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/06/28/a-council-members-solution-to-his-ohio-towns-overdose-problem-let-addicts-die/%3foutputType=amp

Ohio councilman: After 2 overdoses, no more EMS

City manager says under state law aid must be given.

www.google.com

The govt could just get out of the ambulance game altogether,let private companies do it and figure it out

 

[doctalaughs]

Some basic level of healthcare is beneficial for society (not a right but likely something we should provide as a compassionate and well-run country akin to charity).

That being said we are stuck on the notion that everyone should receive an equal “standard” level of care.... this is utter nonsense. “Healthcare” is a huge umbrella ranging from 25 cent vaccines to complex ICU care costing 50k per day.

In that respect you draw the line somewhere (based on resources) and you get what you pay for....