Jul 29, 2016
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This is so embarrassing but I have been subject to dismissal on my last rotation. I am a P4 and I have completed all my rotations except general medicine. This was originally my first rotation and I was not able to pass first time around. Second time , I had a hardcore preceptor. I am to meet the performance committee and ask for another chance. I know 2nd time around, my stress levels were so high that I could not even focus. I was afraid that I would fail and I guess I made that come true. My preceptor accused me that I was not prepared well and I was missing pertinent information on my SOAP notes. I missed some information by accident and now my preceptor thought that I did not know the disease state well. It went on my eval and I cant change it. My preceptor was very picky.

My question is has someone been in this kind of or closer situation and if so, what did you all do? I really want to finish this as I am 98% done. If they do not let me continue then my 5 years will be gone and I will be left with loan money. I know I can do this but I am not able to do general medicine for some reason.

Is it possible to transfer to another school?
 
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6GodPharm

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This is so embarrassing but I have been subject to dismissal on my last rotation. I am a P4 and I have completed all my rotations except general medicine. This was originally my first rotation and I was not able to pass first time around. Second time , I had a hardcore preceptor. I am to meet the performance committee and ask for another chance. I know 2nd time around, my stress levels were so high that I could not even focus. I was afraid that I would fail and I guess I made that come true. My preceptor accused me that I was not prepared well and I was missing pertinent information on my SOAP notes. I missed some information by accident and now my preceptor thought that I did not know the disease state well. It went on my eval and I cant change it. My preceptor was very picky.

My question is has someone been in this kind of or closer situation and if so, what did you all do? I really want to finish this as I am 98% done. If they do not let me continue then my 5 years will be gone and I will be left with loan money. I know I can do this but I am not able to do general medicine for some reason.

Is it possible to transfer to another school?
Preceptor is a complete ass. 4 years of Pharm school, last rotation and they dismiss you for missing some information on SOAP notes.
 
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confettiflyer

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The multiple school policies I've worked with all indicate that when a student is in danger of failing a rotation, the school is notified no later than halfway through the rotation and a remediation plan is implemented, with a realistic chance of passing. Was the same afforded to you on BOTH rotations that you failed or are in danger of failing?

I find it very suspicious that two separate preceptors on two separate rotations are finding fail-worthy deficiencies at two ends of the rotation year.

There's more to your performance than just missing a few lines on a SOAP note. I don't believe your last preceptor was strict, it sounds like your previous preceptors were excruciatingly lenient and/or felt sorry for you and passed you. We weren't born yesterday, stop giving a one-sided story and tell us what really happened.

Even if another school were to accept you as a transfer (highly unlikely with two fails on your transcript), unless you solve your deficiencies, shopping around for a lenient preceptor isn't going to work.


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stoichiometrist

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Preceptors often have to fill out additional paperwork and potentially deal with backlash from schools, so I find it hard to believe that they would fail you just for ****s and giggles, let alone two separate ones.
 

confettiflyer

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Preceptors often have to fill out additional paperwork and potentially deal with backlash from schools, so I find it hard to believe that they would fail you just for ****s and giggles, let alone two separate ones.
This is true. Failing a student is such an extraordinary amount of work and interaction with the school, even the most a-hole preceptors I've known would rather spend extra time teaching/hand holding to get to bare minimal competency and pass.


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OP
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Jul 29, 2016
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My first attempt - I admit was a stupid and I was not able to make the transition from class work to real life. I learned moved on and did very well on next six rotations until I hit general medicine again. This preceptor was not nice to me. I did 4 presentations and yes I made some mistakes here and there but she always found loop holes. Fro example, she was upset because my patient was on Lisinopril and I forgot to mention he should be worried about cough. This was a septic patient so all of my SOAP note focused on his chief complaint, not on his chronic HTN problem. ...Everytime she would get upset, she would call my regional coordinator. She actually dismissed me half-way. There was no plan to re-mediate or anything. This was a mutual decision between the regional coordinator and the preceptor. I tried to explain to the assistant dean but they wont listen. They are all looking down to me because as a p4 student I should be doing a great job and that is what I am expected. ....I am scared to face the academic committee and I have no clue what I am going to tell them. This is pathetic.
 

mw18

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You should pretty much just say this, with some pharmaceutical substitutions.

 

confettiflyer

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My first attempt - I admit was a stupid and I was not able to make the transition from class work to real life. I learned moved on and did very well on next six rotations until I hit general medicine again. This preceptor was not nice to me. I did 4 presentations and yes I made some mistakes here and there but she always found loop holes. Fro example, she was upset because my patient was on Lisinopril and I forgot to mention he should be worried about cough. This was a septic patient so all of my SOAP note focused on his chief complaint, not on his chronic HTN problem. ...Everytime she would get upset, she would call my regional coordinator. She actually dismissed me half-way. There was no plan to re-mediate or anything. This was a mutual decision between the regional coordinator and the preceptor. I tried to explain to the assistant dean but they wont listen. They are all looking down to me because as a p4 student I should be doing a great job and that is what I am expected. ....I am scared to face the academic committee and I have no clue what I am going to tell them. This is pathetic.
I don't mean to harangue you at this point, so don't take this the wrong way, but you're still being extremely vague about your first rotation. Being "stupid" and "not (being) able to make the transition from class work to real life" doesn't give me any real insight as to what is going on.

As for your 2nd gen med preceptor....was this at the SAME institution as your first gen med rotation?

I also gather, from your sentence structure, that English may not be your first/native language. Is there a possibility that there was a language and communication barrier between you and your preceptors? I've had bright students with great general dispositions have difficulty expressing themselves appropriately and as a result of confidence issues, will not address certain items, or overpresent items.

Was there any communication from your regional coordinator regarding this 2nd dismissal? Or was it a unilateral decision?

I suppose what's done is done, so your last chance is appealing to this academic committee to allow you to somehow remediate & complete one more rotation. Make sure you have copies of your evaluations and address each deficiency noted with a realistic plan. Not sure how your school is laid out, but you might have to be open to repeating certain courses throughout the year and slot into another general medicine rotation at the end. You have to openly and honestly tell them why you failed, what YOU did wrong, and what YOU are going to do about it.

Do not, under any circumstances, blame outside causes....be it the preceptor, poor instruction, the weather, whatever... it will be as if you're skirting responsibility. Plead your case, your mea culpa, and be specific. Preceptors tend to have faculty appointments, don't blame them, even if you think it's their fault.... you were the one who failed twice, the presumption is going to be that it's your fault, and that presumption will not be swayed.

Again, omitting cough from a sepsis SOAP isn't grounds for dismissal, there has to be more.
 

lord999

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Preceptors often have to fill out additional paperwork and potentially deal with backlash from schools, so I find it hard to believe that they would fail you just for ****s and giggles, let alone two separate ones.
Agree with stoich and confetti about the quizzical nature of the circumstance. What they don’t additionally know that should give them some comfort on quality control is that ACPE mandates that each school have a committee composed of both pharmacists and non-pharmacists that is tasked with review when failures are made for patently unfair circumstances (it has other functions, but that's mainly what the experiential education committee is for). I serve on this committee, and to give you a couple of cases:


  1. Douche preceptor propositions the student and when she refuses, he finds a reason to fail her. Thankfully, this student immediately caught on BEFORE the end of rotation and called the Experiential Education coordinator the same day. EC got us together the next morning and it was cut and dried. We asked the site to reassign, and when the douche decided to fail her anyway, well, it’s very easy for the committee (which we did immediately without even showing it to the student) to override the grade, but as we have no control over the non-faculty preceptor except for removing him from the roster and reporting our findings to the board. Can’t say what happens later, but more or less, it’s hard to do something about someone out of your control.

  1. Your actual exact scenario when you have too hardcore a preceptor. This is usually a mistake when the preceptor is new and lets the "powah" go the his/her head and overpimps their students without sufficient teaching.

Scenario:

So, you don’t know your HTN meds.

Hardcore unfair: Well, I’ll just fail you. (No opportunity for teaching or correction action. Inappropriate, will get a lecture from me if you were my former student with a canned talk about ‘don’t you remember what YOU were like when you were in pharmacy school. I did!’).


Hardcore fair (me): Well, I guess you’ve earned yourself a reading assignment for tonight. Read either the Koda-Kimble or the DiPiro sections for HTN, prepare a three paragraph brief in the morning, and expect to present to me before you go about your other tasks tomorrow.


And, yes, I’ve actually had a couple of students earn themselves into writing those briefs nightly for 28 days as your time is mine during the rotation (even after hours).


On competency matters, the experiential education coordinator has the ability to question the grading (normal), pressure the preceptor into passing if there is not enough to adjudge failure (not nice but normal), or directly overriding the grade with documentation and pass the student. The committee also has the ability to pass the student with documentation on why.


At the time you failed, trust me, the pharmacy school has as much incentive as you do to pass you even odiously. If the committee thought the preceptor was hardcore unfair (it does happen), the grade will be overriden. The fact that the experiential coordinator did not and the committee did not says to me that there’s more to this than competency unless it is egregious.


If you’re writing this for sympathy, I understand. I’m sympathetic to incompetent P4’s as we should have not passed you in P3 if that was the case. If you really did get bad luck twice, you should build your case around ‘patently unfair’ treatment, however, without the support of the experiential coordinator, that case will be hard to make. If two preceptors fail for competency issues, I would look inward to see what you could do to improve.


By the way, that above doesn’t apply for unprofessional conduct or patient endangerment or matters that the Board would suspend or revoke a license for like diversion. This is for purely academic matters. I have never failed a student over competency even though I wouldn’t exactly like them as my pharmacist as I consider competency my problem to rectify as much as possible, but I have failed students over unprofessional conduct (inexcusable habitually late despite getting verbal and written warnings) and once over something the Board had to be notified for. As stoich and confetti believe, the paperwork is real.
 
OP
D
Jul 29, 2016
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1
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Pharmacy Student
I don't mean to harangue you at this point, so don't take this the wrong way, but you're still being extremely vague about your first rotation. Being "stupid" and "not (being) able to make the transition from class work to real life" doesn't give me any real insight as to what is going on.

As for your 2nd gen med preceptor....was this at the SAME institution as your first gen med rotation?

I also gather, from your sentence structure, that English may not be your first/native language. Is there a possibility that there was a language and communication barrier between you and your preceptors? I've had bright students with great general dispositions have difficulty expressing themselves appropriately and as a result of confidence issues, will not address certain items, or overpresent items.

Was there any communication from your regional coordinator regarding this 2nd dismissal? Or was it a unilateral decision?

I suppose what's done is done, so your last chance is appealing to this academic committee to allow you to somehow remediate & complete one more rotation. Make sure you have copies of your evaluations and address each deficiency noted with a realistic plan. Not sure how your school is laid out, but you might have to be open to repeating certain courses throughout the year and slot into another general medicine rotation at the end. You have to openly and honestly tell them why you failed, what YOU did wrong, and what YOU are going to do about it.

Do not, under any circumstances, blame outside causes....be it the preceptor, poor instruction, the weather, whatever... it will be as if you're skirting responsibility. Plead your case, your mea culpa, and be specific. Preceptors tend to have faculty appointments, don't blame them, even if you think it's their fault.... you were the one who failed twice, the presumption is going to be that it's your fault, and that presumption will not be swayed.

Again, omitting cough from a sepsis SOAP isn't grounds for dismissal, there has to be more.
I just posted the summary for my eval taking out my name and the university name.


For my first rotation, I know I was stupid and did not know how to work up patients. I would go in early and my presentations were scattered. ....But I know I improved on this and did very well on next 7 rotations. I pasted the eval below.

2nd time around, it was different site and different preceptor.

English is my 2nd language but right now honestly I cannot even type correctly. This situation has had a big impact since last week. I woke up having no clue I was going to be dismissed from school.

Yes, the regional coordinator was involved dismissing me from the site.
 
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Dred Pirate

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Preceptors often have to fill out additional paperwork and potentially deal with backlash from schools, so I find it hard to believe that they would fail you just for ****s and giggles, let alone two separate ones.
exactly - I have had only one student who I felt was failure worthy - I was given a heads up bc they did absolutely horrible on their previous rotation, but the preceptor didn't have all their t's crossed and i's dotted and didnot push hard enough other than verbal warnings. After two weeks of constant pushing by myself, I sat her down and said "I know you have a job of retail rph xxx - but you need to pass rotations in order to graduate and get that job, right now, you are not passing because of the following: (I laid out a list of requirments that she had not performed) - amazing what happened the second half - it was like a whole new student - that being said - it is such a royal PITA to consider flunking someone - it is hardly not worth it - I just make their month a living hell by making them do about 80-100 hours worth of work and reading
 

BMBiology

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^ but then you will be known as that assh*le preceptor who hated students. Apparently you hate your life too.


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Dred Pirate

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^ but then you will be known as that assh*le preceptor who hated students. Apparently you hate your life too.


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wow dude - negative on all fronts

I love my life

I hate students who think that rotations mean a cake walk and can't follow a basic task such as - read this article on disease state xxx and answer these 10 questions before tomorrow - then come to the hospital and say "I didn't get to it".

We have won awards (for whatever that is worth) from our local school for precepting

Also when I see new grads that are woefully unprepared to work when they graduate, don't us as preceptors have a duty to help solve this problem vs contributing to it with negligence?
 

PharMed2016

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There is obviously more to this story than what is being told. I can't imagine someone flunking a general medicine pharmacy rotation. If you put in some effort everyday and look up some stuff, here and there... you should pass.
 
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OP
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Here is a summary of my evaluation:

"Student is professional. He arrives on time and stays late. The student has certain knowledge but needs to work on applying to cases and evaluate drug-related problems, make recommendations, and monitor therapies. He also need to improve his kinetics. He presented four cases lacking very pertinent information.

I feel that student may not be able to complete this rotation. I have contacted university coordinator and have decided to dismiss student from our site hoping that college will work directly and him. He may need both academic and psychological help if needed.

We explained student about the decision and I wish him the best of luck."



Since this was my second time failing the same rotation, I am being subject to dismissal.
 
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stoichiometrist

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I agree with others that there has to be more to the story. Barring illegal or downright reckless behavior, it's very, very unlikely that preceptor would bail on you midway through the rotation and give you a failing grade without a chance to even improve, then have the school side with them in failing you.
 
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I agree with others that there has to be more to the story. Barring illegal or downright reckless behavior, it's very, very unlikely that preceptor would bail on you midway through the rotation and give you a failing grade without a chance to even improve, then have the school side with them in failing you.
I know! Its not making any sense to me either. I am not sure why and I am afraid new things might pop up during my meeting with the committee. As far as I know, I have never ever been in any trouble. I have failed 2 classes before but I successfully cleared them and made B+ and A and was off probation. I have a decent GPA 3.0. The school knows I am going thru a family situation. I have my stress and anxiety issues but they are not out of control, I have seen a doctor before and it was determined I did not need any meds. I shared this with the preceptor and even school. This cannot be a reason to dismiss a student right? I mean just have me see a doctor again if I am having stress issues. I was doing all the assignments on time, I was very nice to everyone at the place, and I always showed all the preceptors a learning attitude. I am still in so much shock why is this even happening to me at the last minute. I was graduating in 3 weeks!
 

ldiot

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You are severely lacking in one area or another otherwise you wouldn't have failed multiple times. You need to highlight this area of deficit and present the committee with a plan to correct it. They may even let you retake the rotation over the summer. Feedback from your preceptor may give you more insight... you didn't fail the rotation by leaving out one side effect for one drug.
 

njac

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Preceptors often have to fill out additional paperwork and potentially deal with backlash from schools, so I find it hard to believe that they would fail you just for ****s and giggles, let alone two separate ones.
Seriously.

It's hard enough to give someone a C, failing them is pretty much impossible.


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confettiflyer

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Okay now we have some meat to dig into, let's go....


"The student has certain knowledge but needs to work on applying to cases and evaluate drug-related problems, make recommendations, and monitor therapies. He also need to improve his kinetics. He presented four cases lacking very pertinent information.
Okay appears you have a disconnect between your knowledge base and real life patients...that's to be expected, I don't see anything fail worthy so far. The KINETICS though...this one is huge to me, it's one of the major pillars of pharmacy service, especially at a site where the physicians have entrusted dosing to pharmacists. To be fair, I see students from top flight schools falter in their first few weeks on rotation, but usually pull a rapid turnaround going into the final eval.

If that did not happen on your first rotation or this most recent one, I can see how they made this a condition of failure...failure to progress with kinetics, but obviously should have been communicated to you early on.

You never answered my earlier question, was this 2nd gen med rotation at the same place as the 1st rotation?

I feel that student may not be able to complete this rotation. I have contacted university coordinator and have decided to dismiss student from our site hoping that college will work directly and him. He may need both academic and psychological help if needed.


Holy hell - I would NEVER recommend psychological help on an academic evaluation. That said, it's there, so why is it there? I know you say later on in your post that you had stress/anxiety issues and shared that with your preceptor (I don't know why exactly you did that, but anyway), what event prompted this preceptor to recommend psychological help? I mean, it doesn't sound like you blew a gasket in front of a patient, but unless this preceptor was the total jerk off you say they were & just hates people with mental disabilities...


I have failed 2 classes before but I successfully cleared them and made B+ and A and was off probation. I have a decent GPA 3.0.
Failure of two classes is already a red flag...failing two classes AND two rotations is almost unheard of. But you did remediate under the terms of the school, sooo....seems OK.


The school knows I am going thru a family situation. I have my stress and anxiety issues but they are not out of control, I have seen a doctor before and it was determined I did not need any meds. I shared this with the preceptor and even school. This cannot be a reason to dismiss a student right?
Does anyone with ADA accommodation knowledge want to chime in? I think one of you replied to another user in an unrelated thread.

I mean just have me see a doctor again if I am having stress issues. I was doing all the assignments on time, I was very nice to everyone at the place, and I always showed all the preceptors a learning attitude. I am still in so much shock why is this even happening to me at the last minute. I was graduating in 3 weeks!
Man, I'm just....torn here. Either this really is a sucky situation happening to you where you legitimately were progressing but faltering in certain items w/ an a-hole preceptor....or you're extremely dense and were practically putting patients in danger without knowing it.
 

confettiflyer

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Seriously.

It's hard enough to give someone a C, failing them is pretty much impossible.
I hate graded rotations. Pass, no pass, honors pass...much less pressure on the preceptor's part. With graded students, I have a final grade in mind and I find myself massaging numbers until I arrive at that point.
 
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Dred Pirate

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Holy hell - I would NEVER recommend psychological help on an academic evaluation. That said, it's there, so why is it there? I know you say later on in your post that you had stress/anxiety issues and shared that with your preceptor (I don't know why exactly you did that, but anyway), what event prompted this preceptor to recommend psychological help? I mean, it doesn't sound like you blew a gasket in front of a patient, but unless this preceptor was the total jerk off you say they were & just hates people with mental disabilities...
not to pile on - oh who are we kidding, this is the interweb - we love to pile on and make ourselves feel better, this line makes me wonder WTF?? For a preceptor to mention this after 2 weeks there has to be something really uncomfortable going on
 

Dalteparin

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not to pile on - oh who are we kidding, this is the interweb - we love to pile on and make ourselves feel better, this line makes me wonder WTF?? For a preceptor to mention this after 2 weeks there has to be something really uncomfortable going on
I agree - either this preceptor is a complete d-bag with no sense of boundaries, or s/he thought that the OP was in danger.
 
OP
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As far as I know, there was nothing else that was communicated to me. I was not making any major mistakes and I was meeting with everything that they wanted me to do so like being on time and not going pass due on assignments. I never even argued with any of my preceptors. My mistakes were completely fixable like SOAP notes ect. As for as physiological help, the point I stressed earlier was the only thing I mentioned; the minor anxiety or stress. I think that is why she mentioned maybe I may need help dealing with the stress. I have seen doctor before and never needed any meds. Its just natural stress and fear of failing out of school at the last moment.

So this is just a general question, if a preceptor thinks a student is having some anxiety or stress the best way is to dismiss him rather than providing him help with either counseling or other options the school offers????

This was a different site with different people.
 
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Dred Pirate

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As far as I know, there was nothing else that was communicated to me. I was not making any major mistakes and I was meeting with everything that they wanted me to do so like being on time and not going pass due on assignments. I never even argued with any of my preceptors. My mistakes were completely fixable like SOAP notes ect. As for as physiological help, the point I stressed earlier was the only thing I mentioned; the minor anxiety or stress. I think that is why she mentioned maybe I may need help dealing with the stress. I have seen doctor before and never needed any meds. Its just natural stress and fear of failing out of school at the last moment.

So this is just a general question, if a preceptor thinks a student is having some anxiety or stress the best way is to dismiss him rather than providing him help with either counseling or other options the school offers????

This was a different site with different people.
why did you change your original post? I didn't think it said anything to bad?

as far as your general question - obiously less than 1/100th of 1% would just dismiss a student for "some anxiety" - either you are not being truthful to yourself or you are in one crap hole of a situation with a crappy school, two crappy professors who failed you, and two crappy preceptors who failed you
 
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confettiflyer

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So this is just a general question, if a preceptor thinks a student is having some anxiety or stress the best way is to dismiss him rather than providing him help with either counseling or other options the school offers????

This was a different site with different people.
The only time I personally would EVER immediately dismiss a student with anxiety or other spectrum of mental illness disorder is if they posed an IMMEDIATE danger to patients, visitors, staff, or themselves.

That is the same standard I would hold any other staff member in the pharmacy to (technician, intern, hell a fellow pharmacist after I got a hold of a supervisor)....same action if someone were impaired or intoxicated.

NEVER for "doing poorly" on a rotation. You could be a brainless lump of oatmeal and I'd still keep you around and salvage what time you have left before you become responsible for peoples' lives without oversight.


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Dalteparin

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So this is just a general question, if a preceptor thinks a student is having some anxiety or stress the best way is to dismiss him rather than providing him help with either counseling or other options the school offers????.
No, but it's a really strange thing to put in an evaluation. If I had a student who was struggling with anxiety or any other mental disorder and I thought they needed to seek help, I'd talk to him/her about it. I wouldn't put it in the evaluation because anxiety, depression, or any other health issue is the student's personal business and unless s/he's an imminent danger to self or others, putting it in the evaluation is a violation of the student's privacy. Unless you're about to jump off a bridge or commit violence, whoever's reading your evaluation doesn't need to know.
 

BMBiology

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First, you need to stop posting on this forum. You are not going to get much help not because people are not sympathetic toward your situation but because people here believe you have already received multiple chances.

I don't think I have ever met a career tech who I thought would be able to survive pharmacy school. I don't know what is your undergrad GPA. If it wasn't competitive then your pharmacy school did you a disservice by accepting you and by stringing you along.

What is your option now? Look at your student handbook and policy. What does it say? If it clearly states you are only given two chances to pass, then it is going to be an uphill battle. You would need to hire an attorney to find some loophole. Again, it is an uphill battle.

As a pharmacist, I would feel uncomfortable working with someone who needs multiple opportunities to get it right. I am sure your preceptors felt the same way. No one wants to fail a student so I am sure it wasn't easy for them to make that decision.

I know what we do is not too difficult but we need to have common sense and we need to get it right, the first time and every time.


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I appreciate all of your support. As of know , things stand as they are any my only option is come up with a plan to fix things. I know I am a competent student and I have what it takes to be successful pharmacist. I am very being honest to you all and not hiding anything. I cannot fully understand this situation myself. I have 10 preceptors evaluated me on my previous rotations and have strong opinions about me and I have 1 who think I am not doing well. I did make mistakes on my first try but I survived 6 after so I know I fixed my deficiencies. My undergrad GPA was 3.2 and a decent PCAT. My Pharm GPA is around 3.0 I had a lot of work experience and I got into almost every school I applied all over states. At the end of the day, I am still a student and I did not make any major mistakes as one of the folks said above to be qualified for dismissal. I do not want the attorney route, I just need 1 more chance and I know I got this!
 

confettiflyer

Did you just say something?
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Dec 19, 2004
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I appreciate all of your support. As of know , things stand as they are any my only option is come up with a plan to fix things. I know I am a competent student and I have what it takes to be successful pharmacist. I am very being honest to you all and not hiding anything. I cannot fully understand this situation myself. I have 10 preceptors evaluated me on my previous rotations and have strong opinions about me and I have 1 who think I am not doing well. I did make mistakes on my first try but I survived 6 after so I know I fixed my deficiencies. My undergrad GPA was 3.2 and a decent PCAT. My Pharm GPA is around 3.0 I had a lot of work experience and I got into almost every school I applied all over states. At the end of the day, I am still a student and I did not make any major mistakes as one of the folks said above to be qualified for dismissal. I do not want the attorney route, I just need 1 more chance and I know I got this!
Based on what you're writing, at face value, I wish you the best of luck. Your best bet is a) separating the two rotations, make it clear you failed both for two different reasons, not just two poor performances, b) using your good evaluations as ammunition to prove that your last preceptor was a d-bag, especially if you had an acute care/inpatient clinical rotation somewhere in there.

You would make the argument you were performing the same but that the last preceptor unfairly failed you and that you got zero feedback to improve with an immediate dismissal. You were not given the opportunity to improve.

Whether or not all that is true is irrelevant, that's how you're going to have to argue it.
 
OP
D
Jul 29, 2016
10
1
Status
Pharmacy Student
Based on what you're writing, at face value, I wish you the best of luck. Your best bet is a) separating the two rotations, make it clear you failed both for two different reasons, not just two poor performances, b) using your good evaluations as ammunition to prove that your last preceptor was a d-bag, especially if you had an acute care/inpatient clinical rotation somewhere in there.

You would make the argument you were performing the same but that the last preceptor unfairly failed you and that you got zero feedback to improve with an immediate dismissal. You were not given the opportunity to improve.

Whether or not all that is true is irrelevant, that's how you're going to have to argue it.
Thank you, I like your advise a lot. One thing I have learned from these experiences is that the college does not even want to hear you after a preceptor has failed regardless. They do not even want to look into the issue and see whether if the preceptor was really a d-bag. They hold the upper hand and have way too much power. The student is always incorrect and at fault since "the student failed to show competency." I am not the greatest student out there and I know I had deficiencies but I do not think I did something that horrible to be dismissed. I believe that is why preceptors are out there to fill in those gaps. I was dismissed by surprise and no warning and not even giving me a chance to show improvement for the remaining weeks left.

I am trying to educate myself better on treatment guidelines and do whatever to make my case strong, but I have no hopes they will let me back again. My degree audit shows I am 100% done with PharmD with GPA of 3.0 with some rotation evals being very good. Very sad situation. I have no clue what am I going to do with the rest of my career life. I am almost 40 years old with no money.
 

giga

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Aug 23, 2005
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They hold the upper hand and have way too much power. The student is always incorrect and at fault since "the student failed to show competency." I am not the greatest student out there and I know I had deficiencies but I do not think I did something that horrible to be dismissed. I believe that is why preceptors are out there to fill in those gaps. I was dismissed by surprise and no warning and not even giving me a chance to show improvement for the remaining weeks left.
You say you do not think you did something that horrible to be dismissed. The expectations for the rotation should have been discussed with you so you know exactly what you need to do in order to pass/not be dismissed. It is not something you should have to wonder about. If there is no documentation that the expectations for the rotation were discussed with you, you now have another chip for leverage against the school for not following it's own policies, and evidence of potential misconduct. As advised by others, look at your student handbook and your experiential course policies and your rotation syllabus. These are essentially legal documents that ensure that the school does not have "way too much power" and is not able to treat you in a discriminatory or arbitrary and capricious manner. You and the school have essentially signed into a contract - the student handbook, course policies and syllabus are the terms of that contract. If you have held up your end of the deal, they should hold up theirs. You do have rights and "power" within the situation, you just need to be knowledgeable about what they are. If the situation is bad as it is, you really should consult with a lawyer, even if it is just to get some more information, not necessarily to pursue action against the school.
 
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BidingMyTime

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Wow, I don't have much to add on. People are skeptical here, because there have been many failure stories that start out with "I did nothing wrong", and then the whole story comes out and its clear that the failed student did many heinously wrong things.

And, while we don't have a lot of students at my institution (we're not a teaching hospital and we are in the middle of nowhere), I would agree that someone would have to be *really* bad in order to be failed. Not just knowledge-poor, because that can be improved, and the assumption is that anyone who has made it through the 3 didactic years of pharmacy school is quite capable of learning. I can't imagine dismissing someone halfway through the rotation, no matter how ignorant they were, dismissal halfway through a rotation should only be done for major (usually illegal) reasons.

Still, I've worked with pure evil people before, so I can also imagine that its possible you were unlucky enough to have a pure evil preceptor.

Another point is, how have other students faired under this preceptor? If other students have been failed, or just barely passed, than that will give your case more leverage. If no other students have had problems, then that will give your case less leverage (unless there is reason to think the preceptor is racist or otherwise illegally discriminating against you personally.)

At this point, you definitely need to be very careful about what you say to anyone connected with the school. You need to understand your school's remediation policy and what your options are. As someone mentioned, it might be worthwhile to consult with a lawyer who is familiar with this area, who can help you understand your schools remediation policy and what you need to do from this point on.

Transferring to another school will never happen, if it did happen, you would be required to repeat coursework, but it really will never happen, so don't even consider it as an option.
 
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lord999

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Okay now we have some meat to dig into, let's go....

Holy hell - I would NEVER recommend psychological help on an academic evaluation. That said, it's there, so why is it there? I know you say later on in your post that you had stress/anxiety issues and shared that with your preceptor (I don't know why exactly you did that, but anyway), what event prompted this preceptor to recommend psychological help? I mean, it doesn't sound like you blew a gasket in front of a patient, but unless this preceptor was the total jerk off you say they were & just hates people with mental disabilities...
You and basically anyone who has served as a preceptor. If I had a student that actually had that sort of obvious issue (and yes, I have had, unfortunately), I'd hope that the preceptor practiced often enough that an academic evaluation is no place to put such a comment. That sort of an issue would be an immediate conversation with the education coordinator of your workplace and the school in private. It should never take this long for this to be brought out (and if the experiential coordinator allowed for this after discussion, well, that's a problem for the school as the school is not supposed to endanger the experiential site). In the actual case where it happens, you are supposed to make a reference to an incident report like what you would do if one of your co-workers had a breakdown in front of you.




Does anyone with ADA accommodation knowledge want to chime in? I think one of you replied to another user in an unrelated thread.
I think that was me and it was referring to a health requirement disqualification for employment (you can't be color blind and work in the civil service as a pharmacist under any circumstances as ADA doesn't accomodate true impediments). Yes, this actually is something that ADA and even under just Board regulations with respect to impaired professionals will accomodate and it's a black and white issue (and if you think about it, wouldn't you do so as oversight as the hell I'd trust myself in practice if there were certain family issues).

The key issues and circumstances that none of us have is that there are specific timings and alerts that have to be followed. If not, we are care providers ourselves and we should know enough to know when something isn't right even if you can't deal with it yourself. But if it is only brought up in retrospect, it possibly can be accomodated but the burden is on the student to show that it is legitimate and not grasping at anything possible.
 
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OP
D
Jul 29, 2016
10
1
Status
Pharmacy Student
You and basically anyone who has served as a preceptor. If I had a student that actually had that sort of obvious issue (and yes, I have had, unfortunately), I'd hope that the preceptor practiced often enough that an academic evaluation is no place to put such a comment. That sort of an issue would be an immediate conversation with the education coordinator of your workplace and the school in private. It should never take this long for this to be brought out (and if the experiential coordinator allowed for this after discussion, well, that's a problem for the school as the school is not supposed to endanger the experiential site). In the actual case where it happens, you are supposed to make a reference to an incident report like what you would do if one of your co-workers had a breakdown in front of you.






I think that was me and it was referring to a health requirement disqualification for employment (you can't be color blind and work in the civil service as a pharmacist under any circumstances as ADA doesn't accomodate true impediments). Yes, this actually is something that ADA and even under just Board regulations with respect to impaired professionals will accomodate and it's a black and white issue (and if you think about it, wouldn't you do so as oversight as the hell I'd trust myself in practice if there were certain family issues).

The key issues and circumstances that none of us have is that there are specific timings and alerts that have to be followed. If not, we are care providers ourselves and we should know enough to know when something isn't right even if you can't deal with it yourself. But if it is only brought up in retrospect, it possibly can be accomodated but the burden is on the student to show that it is legitimate and not grasping at anything possible.
You and basically anyone who has served as a preceptor. If I had a student that actually had that sort of obvious issue (and yes, I have had, unfortunately), I'd hope that the preceptor practiced often enough that an academic evaluation is no place to put such a comment. That sort of an issue would be an immediate conversation with the education coordinator of your workplace and the school in private. It should never take this long for this to be brought out (and if the experiential coordinator allowed for this after discussion, well, that's a problem for the school as the school is not supposed to endanger the experiential site). In the actual case where it happens, you are supposed to make a reference to an incident report like what you would do if one of your co-workers had a breakdown in front of you.



I think that was me and it was referring to a health requirement disqualification for employment (you can't be color blind and work in the civil service as a pharmacist under any circumstances as ADA doesn't accomodate true impediments). Yes, this actually is something that ADA and even under just Board regulations with respect to impaired professionals will accomodate and it's a black and white issue (and if you think about it, wouldn't you do so as oversight as the hell I'd trust myself in practice if there were certain family issues).

The key issues and circumstances that none of us have is that there are specific timings and alerts that have to be followed. If not, we are care providers ourselves and we should know enough to know when something isn't right even if you can't deal with it yourself. But if it is only brought up in retrospect, it possibly can be accomodated but the burden is on the student to show that it is legitimate and not grasping at anything possible.

So I am a little confused. You mentioned this is something that does not go on an evaluation. Is this something I need to raise hell about it when I go for my meeting? Is this like a violation of my privacy rights? My friends also have the same opinion that this should not have been there but I am not sure why.
 

lord999

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So I am a little confused. You mentioned this is something that does not go on an evaluation. Is this something I need to raise hell about it when I go for my meeting? Is this like a violation of my privacy rights? My friends also have the same opinion that this should not have been there but I am not sure why.
I wouldn't and I just looked up my own governing policy for my workplace on that to figure out what I formally should do. No, if you had actually demonstrated something that would have gotten that comment, I would have had to fill out a Notice of Contact form, sign it, and have Employee Health evaluate you involuntarily for work suitability if you were not an imminent danger to yourself or to others. So, no, I would not have put that in your evaluation as it would not have gotten to that point (you would have been removed from the site if you were a security risk). If I had read this as part of the committee work, I would call the preceptor in and ask why was this not brought up sooner as they are trained to do this.

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice, but I doubt it is a violation of privacy as it is a specific character, professionalism, and most importantly an adverse suitability consideration. But like I said, the way I would handle the matter is to write something like:

Please refer to Internal Incident/Notice of Contact Report #2016-VHA-101-PH-000001 concerning Donald Grump attached to this evaluation for further consideration on non-academic matters.

which would document from a disinterested party's viewpoint matters that are of that nature in a way that goes of the official evaluation but commented in a way that reflects employee policy and enforcement.

You're not in a good position either way. Even if I think the preceptor is a hothead or overly hardcore, remember that you're the one who has to convince the committee to give you another chance. Given the (admittedly one-sided) view that I have of this, you would not have an easy time considering your past history and probably other chances you have received.

Thanks though, I now have the reading done for what I need to do for the situation where I have a non-academic matter to comment on that has suitability implications.
 
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OP
D
Jul 29, 2016
10
1
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Pharmacy Student
I wouldn't and I just looked up my own governing policy for my workplace on that to figure out what I formally should do. No, if you had actually demonstrated something that would have gotten that comment, I would have had to fill out a Notice of Contact form, sign it, and have Employee Health evaluate you involuntarily for work suitability if you were not an imminent danger to yourself or to others. So, no, I would not have put that in your evaluation as it would not have gotten to that point (you would have been removed from the site if you were a security risk). If I had read this as part of the committee work, I would call the preceptor in and ask why was this not brought up sooner as they are trained to do this.

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice, but I doubt it is a violation of privacy as it is a specific character, professionalism, and most importantly an adverse suitability consideration. But like I said, the way I would handle the matter is to write something like:

Please refer to Internal Incident/Notice of Contact Report #2016-VHA-101-PH-000001 concerning Donald Grump attached to this evaluation for further consideration on non-academic matters.

which would document from a disinterested party's viewpoint matters that are of that nature in a way that goes of the official evaluation but commented in a way that reflects employee policy and enforcement.

You're not in a good position either way. Even if I think the preceptor is a hothead or overly hardcore, remember that you're the one who has to convince the committee to give you another chance. Given the (admittedly one-sided) view that I have of this, you would not have an easy time considering your past history and probably other chances you have received.

Thanks though, I now have the reading done for what I need to do for the situation where I have a non-academic matter to comment on that has suitability implications.

Thanks everyone for the advise. I could have never been so in a bad shape. I am 6 units away from graduation and being dismissed for little things. I have no idea what I am going to go from here. I am to try my best to appeal but like you said, it is a bad shape either way. I can say I can forget about going to grad school if I fail pharmacy. Everyone is going to ask about it. I do not know what I can do with all these pharmacy credits. I am looking into nursing but I do not know if I will pursue it. My family was waiting on me to finish it and I had a job waiting. I was going to get married very soon. I am almost 40 and I am back where I started - atleast I had money back then. This situation will have a great impact on my life just because I did not include pertinent on a stupid presentation and could not present a stupid SOAP note.
 

confettiflyer

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So peanut gallery: what's our nuclear option here for the OP in case this committee rejects the arguments and dismisses the student outright?

Lawsuit alleging age discrimination? Alleging failure to properly accommodate a diagnosed mental disorder and using "missing SOAP note info" as pretext?

Sue them and hope they just settle out of court for reversal of grade + legal costs?

I'm just thinking out loud


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BMBiology

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If his dismissal is justified, he would need to hire an attorney...will probably cost him $5-10 k up front but at this point, what does he have to loss?

If the school makes another accommodation and gives him another chance, then they can get sued if they did not or will not make the same accommodation to other students.

The fact that he has already failed multiple times is going to hurt his case. At this point I would not admit to anything. If he was dismissed half way thru the rotation....before he was given an opportunity to improve then he can argue that wasn't fair.

Pharmacy school requires a lot of work and you have to jumped thru multiple hoops just to graduate. There is a lot of BS. Past exam questions are passed around so if you are in the "in crowd" you have a huge advantage. You get your internship from your connection. That is how I got my first intern job.

Don't think your professors, preceptors, supervisors are all good people just because they have a doctorate degree. I have met and worked with very shady people who only care about themselves. They think just because you are a student, you just have to take it. They are not held accountable for the work they do. That is how the system is set up. So what if what they are teaching you is not practical? So what if you can't find work? They already got your tuition money.

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BMBiology

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You also have deans like this guy who goes on this forum and tells pre pharmacy students that another 100,000 pharmacists will be needed in the future.

APhA president- we need an additional 100,000 pharmacists!
http://www-forums.studentdoctor.net/index.php?threads/APhA-president--we-need-an-additional-100,000-pharmacists!.1202378/

He is so used to not being held accountable for what he says and does, he thinks he can get away with anything. You have to deal with people like him if you want to graduate.


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