Dissections or Alternatives?

[168135]

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In my biology course this semester, we have quite a few dissections coming up... fetal pig a cow's eye, muscles, ect. For each dissection there is an alternative... we have videos and computer programs.

In high school, we did a frog dissection and fetal pig dissection. Instead of doing the dissection, I chose to do both the frog and fetal pig on the computer. I'm into animal rights and I do not agree how the companies get these animals for our use.

In high school, two of my classmates who wanted to be vets and were also members of our schools animal rights groups choose to do the dissections because they thought it would help them on their way to becoming vets.

Is it a bad idea for me to participate in the alternatives than in the dissections? Are dissections beneficial because I want to become a vet?

 

[dyachei]

In my biology course this semester, we have quite a few dissections coming up... fetal pig a cow's eye, muscles, ect. For each dissection there is an alternative... we have videos and computer programs.

In high school, we did a frog dissection and fetal pig dissection. Instead of doing the dissection, I chose to do both the frog and fetal pig on the computer. I'm into animal rights and I do not agree how the companies get these animals for our use.

In high school, two of my classmates who wanted to be vets and were also members of our schools animal rights groups choose to do the dissections because they thought it would help them on their way to becoming vets.

Is it a bad idea for me to participate in the alternatives than in the dissections? Are dissections beneficial because I want to become a vet?

In my opinion, yes, dissections are very beneficial if you want to be a vet. When you get into vet school, you don't really have a choice about whether or not to dissect, anyway. But it really helps you understand in a hands on way that computer models and videos don't.

 

[clawsbeatskin]

I'm into animal rights and I do not agree how the companies get these animals for our use.

I would definitely research animal "rights" before you have to interview anywhere.

Do you know how the "companies" work? All of our mammals for vertebrate physiology were either farmed specifically for their use in educational forums, or, in the case of the minks, were farmed for fur and then donated to universities to be used in classes. Perfectly legit, if you ask me, especially since the furriers could have elected to dispose of the carcasses in other ways.

 

[RaptorRehaber]

There are plenty of ways to still support animal rights but whether you like it or not, you'll be dissecting cats, dogs, horses, cows etc. and I can't speak for all schools but I know many of our vet school dogs are greyhounds...and we all know where they get their greyhounds.


and Claws brings up a really great point. You should research what you truly support ie. rights or welfare. Personally for me, I believe in order for someone or something to have rights, they must be able to be held accountable for their actions. Animals do not have that mental capacity, therefore they do not have rights. But, as humans, we have an obligation to treat these animal humanely, we are essentially responsible for these 'burdens' and it's just the ethical thing to do.

 

[Angelo84]

Just to throw this out there. Tufts has a unique program for small animal anatomy. All the animals are clients pets that they have donated to the anatomy lab. It is nice since we get to see some pathology even in first year. For example we had a dog with gastric dilation and torsion, a dog with lymphoma, and a dog with bone cancer. It's also nice because there are some differences between the breeds ie the muscles on a greyhound look different than the muscles on a mastiff. The actual muscles are the same but there a lot more crammed together in the mastiff.

They don't do the same program for large animal because they need to be embalmed before they are euthanized --a machine can't do the pump work of the heart to move the fixitive around the body--they are anesthetized first however. They also do all the horses at the same time and I don't think you could find 10 people that wanted to donate their horses on the same day.

 

[168135]

The vet tech program that I was going to do... they got their animals from the SPCA... in the vet tech program, they assist with spays and neuters, and if an animal is due to be put asleep, they recieve the animal, put it under, learn different procedures and techniques, and then put the animal to sleep. During my interview, they asked me if I had a problem with that... and I do not... I was able to explain why I didn't have a problem with it, and I told them what I would have a problem with.

The vet school that I am interrested in, I heard that their cadavers are shelter animals that are put to sleep, and that people donate their deceased pets for the vet school to use.

I don't agree with people raising animals just to kill and use for dissection... and it bothers me because I do not know exactly what these companies do... I have been convinced that you can learn more from computer simulations and videos, and by watching these demonstrations, I'm not contrubuting to the killing.

Here is another couple of questions... if I were to participate in dissections, is it beneficial for me to "get my hands dirty" and do this. Might sound like a dumb question... but I know a couple people who have learned nothing from doing "high school" type dissections, and learned a lot from doing what they did in vet school.

Can I pick and choose my battles? I can see how cutting open a fetal pig can beneficial... but a muscle? I think we are doing a starfish too... I don't see how that can benefit me, besides the fact that I'll become a better slicer and dicer.

I'm confused... although I don't agree with it... I can't afford to pass up opportunities that can benefit me in the future.

 

[ylrebmik]

In my biology course this semester, we have quite a few dissections coming up... fetal pig a cow's eye, muscles, ect. For each dissection there is an alternative... we have videos and computer programs.

In high school, we did a frog dissection and fetal pig dissection. Instead of doing the dissection, I chose to do both the frog and fetal pig on the computer. I'm into animal rights and I do not agree how the companies get these animals for our use.

In high school, two of my classmates who wanted to be vets and were also members of our schools animal rights groups choose to do the dissections because they thought it would help them on their way to becoming vets.

Is it a bad idea for me to participate in the alternatives than in the dissections? Are dissections beneficial because I want to become a vet?

I'm a little confused... you are into animal rights so you don't agree with how companies get the animals... but are you against dissection because of animal rights too?

And I believe... yes... of course it helps to do dissections because well vets don't sit at a computer and pretend to operate...they are there....

I guess there were no alternatives for us but what are these simulations like?

 

[168135]

I'm a little confused... you are into animal rights so you don't agree with how companies get the animals... but are you against dissection because of animal rights too?

And I believe... yes... of course it helps to do dissections because well vets don't sit at a computer and pretend to operate...they are there....

I guess there were no alternatives for us but what are these simulations like?

I understand that dissection is a part of learning to become a veternarian... and at our vet school, they are getting use out of animals that are getting put to sleep.

Dissections in high school are pretty unnecessary... half of the students who take biology in high school, don't pursue it after high schools, and most of the ones that do, it was unnecessary... I know someone in med school, and she said that dissections didn't help her at all. Our school board was the only school board in the province that gave you a chose and didn't penelize you for not doing dissections. If the animals that we are using in class were going to die anyway, I would consider doing it... but I don't like fact that the companies are raising and killing animals just for us to pick them apart.

They don't use preserved animals in vet school do they? I've heard that looking at a preserved animal is very different from looking at something "fresh".

Anyway...

I did the frog on the internet and a fetal pig computer simulation... the programs were quite dated, but I liked them. Its been a year and two years since I've done these... the frog website... it was basically a collection of pictures... I don't remember a whole lot, but I didn't have a problem finding what I needed to know, and my mark on it was in the 90s. The pig program was pretty neat... you could choose a male or female fetal pig... it is uncommon to get male pigs in the pigs that you get for dissection... my friend did the male, and I did the female. It was divided into sections... you picked a section, and it showed you a picture with everything labled. You click on the lable and it would say it for you. To get a closer look, you could click on a lable. You had the option to watch a video of someone dissecting that part of the pig, and you had the option to "make the cuts" and "open" the pig up yourself. Once you made a cut, it showed a video of what you just did, and gives you instructions on what to do next. I couldn't find one structure on the pig that was on the assignment, so my teacher showed it to me on a real one... and we needed to prepare a slide of the villi... so I watched a group do that... there was also quizzes after each section, which were fun... I got a 90 on that too. In the past, only one or two people choose to do the alternatives... and they have gotten some of the top marks in the class... I know one girl who had an issue with her teacher... her teacher deliberately marked her lower because she did not choose to do the dissection... it got taken to the school board, but I don't think much got done because the teacher retired shortly afterward.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

They don't use preserved animals in vet school do they? I've heard that looking at a preserved animal is very different from looking at something "fresh".

Our school had both. We had dissection dogs, horses, goats, and cows that were "dry/moist preserved" with formaldehyde etc....when we were done we would just spray the cadaver with formaldehyde spray, wrap it in a plastic tarp and stow it in the freezer to take it out again the next lab period. Since it takes a LONG long while to go through all the systems, we needed something we could work on, put away, and come back to and work with over the course of several months.

But for each section we usually has a few fresh specimens as well for the whole class to observe.

Let me tell you, by the end of the second lab period, and entire table full of fresh equine entrails smells much worse that any formaldehyde 😉 It's a bit different. Feels softer, definitely. More blood. But not too much different if the preservations is done right.

High school biology is pretty much worthless. It doesn't really matter if you choose to dissect or not. Because in vet school you'll have to. So....if you don't feel like dissecting now, don't. No big deal. You aren't going to hurt yourself. One fetal pig dissection and a frog or two is not going to make or break ya. But be ready for actually having to do it later on.

 

[ri23]

As others have stated, before saying you are animal rights definitely do some research on it. The animal rights vs. animal welfare is a big issue and most veterinarians are not about animal rights.

 

[dyachei]

The vet tech program that I was going to do... they got their animals from the SPCA... in the vet tech program, they assist with spays and neuters, and if an animal is due to be put asleep, they recieve the animal, put it under, learn different procedures and techniques, and then put the animal to sleep. During my interview, they asked me if I had a problem with that... and I do not... I was able to explain why I didn't have a problem with it, and I told them what I would have a problem with.

The vet school that I am interrested in, I heard that their cadavers are shelter animals that are put to sleep, and that people donate their deceased pets for the vet school to use.

I don't agree with people raising animals just to kill and use for dissection... and it bothers me because I do not know exactly what these companies do... I have been convinced that you can learn more from computer simulations and videos, and by watching these demonstrations, I'm not contrubuting to the killing.

Here is another couple of questions... if I were to participate in dissections, is it beneficial for me to "get my hands dirty" and do this. Might sound like a dumb question... but I know a couple people who have learned nothing from doing "high school" type dissections, and learned a lot from doing what they did in vet school.

Can I pick and choose my battles? I can see how cutting open a fetal pig can beneficial... but a muscle? I think we are doing a starfish too... I don't see how that can benefit me, besides the fact that I'll become a better slicer and dicer.

I'm confused... although I don't agree with it... I can't afford to pass up opportunities that can benefit me in the future.

If you do the dissections, definitely get your hands dirty. Think of it this way: if you were to watch someone do something or do it yourself, which way would you remember better? For most people, its the hands on activity that wins out. This past year in anatomy lab, it definitely reflected in my grades when I didn't get my hands dirty (due to wrist problems) but when I did, my grades went way up.

Can you ask your professor/teacher (not sure if you're in high school or university or what) where the specimens come from? I personally found the starfish interesting and beneficial from a comparative anatomy standpoint. It all depends on the field you're interested in though.

 

[Capella]

Not only do actual cadavers look completely different from those computer programs, but different cadavers and freshly deceased specimens can look very different from each other. It takes a lot of looking at different specimens to get a grasp of "normal."

Until holodecks are invented, I'm afraid you're going to have to get your hands dirty.

 

[Rebeki]

Hahahah....I always wanted a holodeck

 

[ylrebmik]

I understand that dissection is a part of learning to become a veternarian... and at our vet school, they are getting use out of animals that are getting put to sleep.

Dissections in high school are pretty unnecessary... half of the students who take biology in high school, don't pursue it after high schools, and most of the ones that do, it was unnecessary... I know someone in med school, and she said that dissections didn't help her at all. Our school board was the only school board in the province that gave you a chose and didn't penelize you for not doing dissections. If the animals that we are using in class were going to die anyway, I would consider doing it... but I don't like fact that the companies are raising and killing animals just for us to pick them apart.

They don't use preserved animals in vet school do they? I've heard that looking at a preserved animal is very different from looking at something "fresh".

Anyway...

I did the frog on the internet and a fetal pig computer simulation... the programs were quite dated, but I liked them. Its been a year and two years since I've done these... the frog website... it was basically a collection of pictures... I don't remember a whole lot, but I didn't have a problem finding what I needed to know, and my mark on it was in the 90s. The pig program was pretty neat... you could choose a male or female fetal pig... it is uncommon to get male pigs in the pigs that you get for dissection... my friend did the male, and I did the female. It was divided into sections... you picked a section, and it showed you a picture with everything labled. You click on the lable and it would say it for you. To get a closer look, you could click on a lable. You had the option to watch a video of someone dissecting that part of the pig, and you had the option to "make the cuts" and "open" the pig up yourself. Once you made a cut, it showed a video of what you just did, and gives you instructions on what to do next. I couldn't find one structure on the pig that was on the assignment, so my teacher showed it to me on a real one... and we needed to prepare a slide of the villi... so I watched a group do that... there was also quizzes after each section, which were fun... I got a 90 on that too. In the past, only one or two people choose to do the alternatives... and they have gotten some of the top marks in the class... I know one girl who had an issue with her teacher... her teacher deliberately marked her lower because she did not choose to do the dissection... it got taken to the school board, but I don't think much got done because the teacher retired shortly afterward.

I agree that high school dissections are unnessisary. I guess I don't really understand what the alternative is. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to be able to try it someday.

 

[168135]

Apparently, we are also doing an earthworm and grasshopper.

Just basically...

If everyone in the world did the alternative, only one animal will be killed. If everyone did dissections, hundreds of animals are killed annually, and with most people, it doesn't even benefit them. That is why I prefer alternatives. You can sometimes learn twice as much... you are "saving" an animal... and you are setting an example that others may follow...

 

[PiddlingFish]

I didn't do any dissections before undergrad and then it was for actual anatomy or disease courses.

I'm doing just fine in the vet anatomy courses.

 

[aretoo]

Are you sure where the animals are coming from?

We dissected cats in Gr 12 and they were SPCA cats that were going to be euthanized anyway...in which case, why not have some purpose to the loss of life?

The worm was HARD...grasshopper was fun though! I would try it if I were you.

As for not agreeing with dissections in high school - sure, it might seem pointless, but I think that it helps keep interest in a subject that many people struggle with. At my school, you were required to do one Gr 11 science class, no matter what you were planning to do after high school - many people took biology because the dissections were interesting to them. High school teachers have a hard enough time keeping their students interested - I don't think we should take away a very good hands-on learning tool.

 

[168135]

I talked to my lab instructor. She knows where I am coming from, and even she doesn't like doing dissections because she knows where the animals are coming from and agrees that it is a waste. She says there has been a decrease in the number of animals per year being used, and she is happy that there has been a decrease.

We talked for quite a while after class... she told me that they get all of their animals from a company. She knows how they get the fetal pigs. The companies have sows that they keep pregnant. After a period of time, the baby pigs are aborted from the sow and are used for dissection.

She gave me an option and some good advice. After the students dissect the fetal pigs, most of them are left in pretty good shape, and she said that when they are done with it, if I felt comfortable, I could do further dissections on that pig before they dispose of it. I could do the alternative along with that. She said not to worry about dissecting in this course... she told two courses that I can take next year that do plenty of dissections, including a cat, and that they would be doing more that would be geared towards whay I want to do. She said that I'm probably one of the only ones who actually will benefit from doing dissections... microbiologists never need to dissect anything in their career, and there are a lot of BAs in the course who need a biology course to become a teacher.

I'm going to not do the grasshopper, earthworm, ect, and do a fetal pig that has "already been done".