Disturbing Trend

[captainbsm]

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As a member of this site for a few months I have noticed a disturbing trend. It disturbs me that being a URM is seen to be a handicap in some respects, or if a person gets into medical school with average scores then the only reason they were able to be accepted is that they must have been a URM. IS it me or are a lot of people who make statements like this a bit insecure? Or could the deeper reason be an feeling of misguided superiority that can only be made manifest on a site such as SDN? Or could those who make negative comments like those mentioned above just like starting fights and disputes?

 

[drmota]

IS it me or are a lot of people who make statements like this a bit insecure?

yes. nuff said.
-mota

 

[Whootman]

As a member of this site for a few months I have noticed a disturbing trend. It disturbs me that being a URM is seen to be a handicap in some respects, or if a person gets into medical school with average scores then the only reason they were able to be accepted is that they must have been a URM. IS it me or are a lot of people who make statements like this a bit insecure? Or could the deeper reason be an feeling of misguided superiority that can only be made manifest on a site such as SDN? Or could those who make negative comments like those mentioned above just like starting fights and disputes?

Speaking of starting fights and disputes 🙂

But the bottom line is that being a URM does help in the application process and that some non-URMs are bitter about it.

 

[nontradwaitlist]

It does make a difference. A specific anecdote...non-med related...a good friend of mine is like 1/16th cuban applied to law school...rejected everywhere...changed nothing else but changed her status away from caucasion...got accepted a few places with scholership money. The only key is that is should not make a difference. If you have these quantitative measures...gpa mcat so on...they should be weighed equally. ideally it should not even be on the application. If you have truly had to claw your way up (I happen to be one of those people) You can talk about that in your personal statement or during an interview.

 

[ShyRem]

Also disturbing in the private sector. My husband got the highest test and interview scores for a promotion, but got passed up for a woman and four URMs that got lower scores. No caucasian men were promoted (and they made up more than 50% of the promotion candidates).

I've said it before, I'll say it again - there will never be true equality until we take the race boxes off applications. Until race becomes a non-issue, there will always be strife in this area.

 

[Law2Doc]

If you have these quantitative measures...gpa mcat so on...they should be weighed equally.

No one ever said med school admissions was purely about quantitative measures. It's not even all about that when evaluating folks of the same race. That's why the PS, interview, etc. play a big role in admissions.

 

[RxnMan]

I agree. Race boxes should be taken off. I am one of two or three Slovenians on this forum (taken to be a rough sampling of pre-meds), and I don't get URM status. If a current problem in medicine is a misrepresentation of US population becoming MDs, then shouldn't I? If not, then why do other races get it but I don't?

 

[nontradwaitlist]

No one ever said med school admissions was purely about quantitative measures. It's not even all about that when evaluating folks of the same race. That's why the PS, interview, etc. play a big role in admissions.

I absolutely agree. But all things being equal urm have an advantage.

 

[Law2Doc]

I absolutely agree. But all things being equal urm have an advantage.

Que sera sera. Get over it and worry about your own chances.

 

[registered user]

I think its frustrating because race is not something we have control over. Premeds have control over almost everything else on their applications. like it or not, that one section on the app can have a big effect on where you get in.

 

[BozoSparky]

I've said it before, I'll say it again - there will never be true equality until we take the race boxes off applications. Until race becomes a non-issue, there will always be strife in this area.

uh, there was more racial strife before those little boxes appeared.

 

[infiniti]

....and how many times have great minds who happen to be URM's been overlooked (for every instance you can think about, I can give you at least ten instances.). As I said before, the insecure ones will whine. Great applicants know there is nothing to be afraid about. I find it rather funny that in a class of about 140 there are total of 10 minority students, yet people whine. A lot of you are about to be intimidated when you start medical school, especially if you go to a top ranked school. A lot of minority students there are cream of the crop. I look forward to seeing some of you with this mindset in med school.

 

[DrHuang]

....and how many times have great minds who happen to be URM's been overlooked (for every instance you can think about, I can give you at least ten instances.).

what does this have to do with anything?

 

[Dr. Giggles]

I think it needs to be taken off too. The worst part of all about it is that it creates a stigma for URMs brought on by doubts of whether their qualifications were good enough. I think Clarence Thomas in the UMich affirmative action case stated that it puts a "badge of inferiority" on minorities because the public has a tendency to assume that they got in by virtue of being an URM. Throughout their careers, URMs can face questions of the extent to which their advancements were mediated by tokenism rather than scholastic and professional excellence. IMO racial preferences greatly exacerbate existing racism rather than alleviate it.

 

[nontradwaitlist]

....and how many times have great minds who happen to be URM's been overlooked (for every instance you can think about, I can give you at least ten instances.). As I said before, the insecure ones will whine. Great applicants know there is nothing to be afraid about. I find it rather funny that in a class of about 140 there are total of 10 minority students, yet people whine. A lot of you are about to be intimidated when you start medical school, especially if you go to a top ranked school. A lot of minority students there are cream of the crop. I look forward to seeing some of you with this mindset in med school.

In the same vein great minds keep themselves from being overlooked. As far as whining and insecurity goes it is very easy to say such things from the side that has the advantage.

 

[Josh1105]

....and how many times have great minds who happen to be URM's been overlooked (for every instance you can think about, I can give you at least ten instances.). As I said before, the insecure ones will whine. Great applicants know there is nothing to be afraid about. I find it rather funny that in a class of about 140 there are total of 10 minority students, yet people whine. A lot of you are about to be intimidated when you start medical school, especially if you go to a top ranked school. A lot of minority students there are cream of the crop. I look forward to seeing some of you with this mindset in med school.

there are way more than 10 URMs in most med school classes of 140.

That aside, does a URM who went to an Ivy League (or great non-Ivy) school still need the extra 'help' on their med school application? I know that this is not the situation of every URM, but shouldn't part of this debate revolve around at what point a URM no longer needs special preference and at what point it is appropriate for that person to compete on equal terms with the rest of the applicant pool? At some point shouldn't a URM's sub-par MCAT be taken to be equal to that of a caucasian's sub-par MCAT (ie. if they both come from upper-mddle class homes and went to the same Ivy League university)?
just some food for thought..

 

[Wolfgang12345]

there are way more than 10 URMs in most med school classes of 140.

That aside, does a URM who went to an Ivy League (or great non-Ivy) school still need the extra 'help' on their med school application? I know that this is not the situation of every URM, but shouldn't part of this debate revolve around at what point a URM no longer needs special preference and at what point it is appropriate for that person to compete on equal terms with the rest of the applicant pool? At some point shouldn't a URM's sub-par MCAT be taken to be equal to that of a caucasian's sub-par MCAT (ie. if they both come from upper-mddle class homes and went to the same Ivy League university)?
just some food for thought..

I kind of think affirmative action should be based on economic factors, rather than ethnicity... which I think is what original aa was designed to overcome: ethnic minorities across the board had less opportunities because of their historical status in the US leading to increased poverty.. therefore they should receive extra assistance to overcome the gap. But now, people who aren't necessarily ethnic minorities really need a lot of help (e.g. someone from the rural midwest does not have the same opportunities as an upper-middle class east/west coaster, even if they are white) - and it would still help a large proportion of ethnic minorities b/c they still make up a large percentage of people below the poverty line.

No flames, just my $0.02.

 

[newguy357]

uh, there was more racial strife before those little boxes appeared.

Yea and we all know it was the boxes that made them go away.

 

[Josh1105]

I kind of think affirmative action should be based on economic factors, rather than ethnicity... which I think is what original aa was designed to overcome: ethnic minorities across the board had less opportunities because of their historical status in the US leading to increased poverty.. therefore they should receive extra assistance to overcome the gap. But now, people who aren't necessarily ethnic minorities really need a lot of help (e.g. someone from the rural midwest does not have the same opportunities as an upper-middle class east/west coaster, even if they are white) - and it would still help a large proportion of ethnic minorities b/c they still make up a large percentage of people below the poverty line.

No flames, just my $0.02.

i would have to agree with you.

 

[Rafa]

SDN Affirmative Action Play, Take Infinitum:

1. What do you think about AA?

2. Love it!

3. AA sux!

4. I'm a poor white kid who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks...

 

[star22]

I kind of think affirmative action should be based on economic factors, rather than ethnicity... ... But now, people who aren't necessarily ethnic minorities really need a lot of help (e.g. someone from the rural midwest does not have the same opportunities as an upper-middle class east/west coaster, even if they are white) - and it would still help a large proportion of ethnic minorities b/c they still make up a large percentage of people below the poverty line.

No flames, just my $0.02.

Yep, I think asking about socioeconomic background would be better than asking ethnicity.... because your parents level of education and economic resources are a better measure of the opportunities you have had than your ethnicity.

 

[SuzieQ3417]

I find it interesting the way we all tend to latch on to the story of an URM with average/below average scores who gets accepted, and automatically point fingers and start debating the unfairness of it all....yet when a non-URM gets in with average/below average scores and boasts about it on a SDN thread, we all applaud and congratulate them on their hard work. I'm not pointing fingers, this is just an observation.

While I have no doubt that race may play a role in some real-life decisions such as med school or job promotions, I think we tend to exaggerate the extent to which this occurs.

 

[Law2Doc]

I kind of think affirmative action should be based on economic factors, rather than ethnicity... which I think is what original aa was designed to overcome:

I think your history is a bit off on this. AA had its genesis shortly after the civil war to help improve opportunities to the newly free.

 

[Rafa]

I find it interesting the way we all tend to latch on to the story of an URM with average/below average scores who gets accepted, and automatically point fingers and start debating the unfairness of it all....yet when a non-URM gets in with average/below average scores and boasts about it on a SDN thread, we all applaud and congratulate them on their hard work. I'm not pointing fingers, this is just an observation.

While I have no doubt that race may play a role in some real-life decisions such as med school or job promotions, I think we tend to exaggerate the extent to which this occurs.

Well *I* have a URM friend, and *her* parents make twenty Gazillion! dollars a year, and *she*'s never faced *any* discrimination in her life, and she got into *all these schools!* And...I dunno, I think she got a 40 on the MCAT or something, and she had a 3.94 or *something* like that, but it was TOTALLY AA that got her in! The system needs to CHAANGE, Man!!!!

 

[SuzieQ3417]

Well *I* have a URM friend, and *her* parents make twenty Gazillion! dollars a year, and *she*'s never faced *any* discrimination in her life, and she got into *all these schools!* And...I dunno, I think she got a 40 on the MCAT or something, and she had a 3.94 or *something* like that, but it was TOTALLY AA that got her in! The system needs to CHAANGE, Man!!!!

Lol...I love it. Nice post.

 

[happydays]

A qualified applicant will get accepted. If that qualified applicant is a URM, then more schools will fight over that student because there are so few URMs out there and schools all want "diversity."

 

[star22]

I find it interesting the way we all tend to latch on to the story of an URM with average/below average scores who gets accepted, and automatically point fingers and start debating the unfairness of it all....yet when a non-URM gets in with average/below average scores and boasts about it on a SDN thread, we all applaud and congratulate them on their hard work. I'm not pointing fingers, this is just an observation.

While I have no doubt that race may play a role in some real-life decisions such as med school or job promotions, I think we tend to exaggerate the extent to which this occurs.

Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I haven't seen any non-URMs get into MD programs with a 5 on any section of the MCAT or less than 26 overall, but on mdapplicants.com there are a good number of URMs in that situation. If you know of some non-URMs, I'll happily change my position.

 

[Josh1105]

I find it interesting the way we all tend to latch on to the story of an URM with average/below average scores who gets accepted, and automatically point fingers and start debating the unfairness of it all....yet when a non-URM gets in with average/below average scores and boasts about it on a SDN thread, we all applaud and congratulate them on their hard work. I'm not pointing fingers, this is just an observation.

While I have no doubt that race may play a role in some real-life decisions such as med school or job promotions, I think we tend to exaggerate the extent to which this occurs.

try searching mdapplicants

 

[SuzieQ3417]

try searching mdapplicants

MDapplicants is flawed...its such a small cross-section I hardly think it is a valid indicator of the application process.

 

[Rafa]

Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I haven't seen any non-URMs get into MD programs with a 5 on any section of the MCAT or less than 26 overall. If you know of some, I'll happily change my position.

Check out the "Anyone got into med school with a sub 26 MCAT?" thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=261866

:^)

 

[somewhere2010]

there are way more than 10 URMs in most med school classes of 140.

That aside, does a URM who went to an Ivy League (or great non-Ivy) school still need the extra 'help' on their med school application? I know that this is not the situation of every URM, but shouldn't part of this debate revolve around at what point a URM no longer needs special preference and at what point it is appropriate for that person to compete on equal terms with the rest of the applicant pool? At some point shouldn't a URM's sub-par MCAT be taken to be equal to that of a caucasian's sub-par MCAT (ie. if they both come from upper-mddle class homes and went to the same Ivy League university)?
just some food for thought..

i agree with your point about many minority students, including myself, not needing a boost in the admissions process...in fact, i don't think that's necessarily the purpose of the advantage afforded minorities. i think there are two main purposes of these admissions practices: 1) to increase the number of underrepresented minority physicians, as it increases likelihood of more care to those without care, and 2) to make schools look good...% URM of the student body is another way in which schools are competing and measuring themselves against one another. superficial, but true in my opinion.

i think what should be clear is that, while a minority student may have a slightly better chance at gaining admissions to a certain school than a non-minority, he or she is not the reason for a non-minority student not gaining admissions. some people may resent me for my success, but i certainly don't appreciate others blaming me for their failures.

 

[Law2Doc]

MDapplicants is flawed...its such a small cross-section I hardly think it is a valid indicator of the application process.

Agree -- MD Applicants is a data set of outliers. Those who want to brag about scores/credentials post there, as do absurd exceptions to the rule on the other extreme who overcome amazing odds. The vast majority of applicants in the middle of these two ranges will never post. And there are quite a few fake profiles on there, many of which have been "outed" on SDN over the years. So assume everything you see on that board is skewed one way or the other, and rely on it with a huge grain of salt.

 

[temmie]

Well *I* have a URM friend, and *her* parents make twenty Gazillion! dollars a year, and *she*'s never faced *any* discrimination in her life, and she got into *all these schools!* And...I dunno, I think she got a 40 on the MCAT or something, and she had a 3.94 or *something* like that, but it was TOTALLY AA that got her in! The system needs to CHAANGE, Man!!!!

I'm sorry honey but i think this was a very silly conclusion to make. Someone got a freaking 40 on her mcat and 3.94 GPA and you are saying that her ethnicity got her there. Come on now, anything with such stats would have gotten into the cream schools too.
I think we need to get over this minority stuff and give credit to who deserves it.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm sorry honey but i think this was a very silly conclusion to make. Someone got a freaking 40 on her mcat and 3.94 GPA and you are saying that her ethnicity got her there. Come on now, anything with such stats would have gotten into the cream schools too.
I think we need to get over this minority stuff and give credit to who deserves it.

Sarcasm seems to have been lost on you. 🙄

 

[RxnMan]

uh, there was more racial strife before those little boxes appeared.

The URM boxes were there for a reason. Has that reason passed? Why not extend that reason to all races?

 

[NonTradMed]

Well, acording to the AAMC, the stats for last year's matriculants are:

White: 30.9PMCAT/3.61 sciGPA/3.72 nonsci GPA

Asian: 31.3Q MCAT/3.58 sciGPA/3.71 nonsci GPA

Black: 25.2O MCAT/3.23 sciGPA/3.53 nonsciGPA

Mexican: 28.1P MCAT/3.37 sciGPA/3.59 nonsci GPA



So, there is a significant discrepancy between URM and non underrepresented groups, according to AAMC. I just threw out the 'big groups' that SDNers talk about a lot (white/black/asians). The website here:

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm

is how I got the info. the makeup of the matriculants are pretty interesting.

FYI, I do know what it feels like to be constantly thought of as getting a position because of my race. I'm an asian female and I was told by some guys at my school that it probably helped to get into our engineering school program in part because I was female (despite the fact that my GPA/SAT/ACT are at or above average of the school?), and it was hinted by some Utah premeds I met on the interview trail that I probably got my med school interviews because I was an asian female because they believe asian females are underrepresented in med school admissions (well, maybe they are in Utah!).

And of course, I was constantly told, as an asian, it would probably be a disadvantage so I should skip any mention of racial checkboxes if possible.

Anyway, the above stats seem to indicate that while there are URMs with good numbers who get into medical school, the average matriculant don't have numbers that are on par with the majority of applicants.

 

[disque71]

I come from a first generation Italian immigrant family(father is bilingual, uncle and aunts, grandparents previously noncitizens), and I also do not get URM status. Heck, I was the first to be born a natural citizen. What’s the deal with that?

 

[Law2Doc]

The URM boxes were there for a reason. Has that reason passed? Why not extend that reason to all races?

Not to be a killjoy, rather than focus on who else is getting a better deal, I suggest everyone focus on their own credentials, and do what they can to get into med school. The vast majority of seats each year are up for grabs to the best, most well rounded, applicants. Inequities will always exist. But to dwell on them is a huge waste of effort.

 

[PhillyEaglesFan]

The URM boxes were there for a reason. Has that reason passed? Why not extend that reason to all races?

I don't think it has passed. There's improvement, but the indicators--unemployment, prison pop., education, etc.--clearly show that minorities are poorer and less well off in this country. And unless one subscribes to the "racial superiority" theory, the reasons *have* to lie with the way this society works--*not* with any inherent characteristics of a particular race.

Therefore, we've got a responsibility to correct the disparity.

 

[golftrippy]

I come from a first generation Italian immigrant family(father is bilingual, uncle and aunts, grandparents previously noncitizens), and I also do not get URM status. Heck, I was the first to be born a natural citizen. What’s the deal with that?

You guys always take URM status so personally. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE APPLICANT!!! URM status certainly has a great effect on admissions, and it does help out certain people because of their race, whether those INDIVIDUALS deserve the lower admissions standards vs. you isn't really the question. URM status is about educating a population of doctors that reflects the population of America...URM status is meant to BENEFIT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, not the individual applicant. There have been numerous sociology studies demonstrating that other races (besides Asians and whites) are often treated differently (and poorly) by the medical establishment...the only way to really improve the situation is to get a group of doctors that represent our patients...we owe it to the patients.

 

[Elastase]

i agree with your point about many minority students, including myself, not needing a boost in the admissions process...in fact, i don't think that's necessarily the purpose of the advantage afforded minorities. i think there are two main purposes of these admissions practices: 1) to increase the number of underrepresented minority physicians, as it increases likelihood of more care to those without care, and 2) to make schools look good...% URM of the student body is another way in which schools are competing and measuring themselves against one another. superficial, but true in my opinion.

i think what should be clear is that, while a minority student may have a slightly better chance at gaining admissions to a certain school than a non-minority, he or she is not the reason for a non-minority student not gaining admissions. some people may resent me for my success, but i certainly don't appreciate others blaming me for their failures.

Wow, I'm impressed in seeing one of the few URM threads that has some good points!

I agree with somewhere2010. There are two reasons why URM status helps, 1. statistically more likely to help the underserved as a future physician b/c its usually their own community. 2. to increase the diversity of medical schools classes to better represent all populations/communities.

The reality is that there are NOT a lot of URMs out there, because if that were the case then schools wouldn't be fighting over them, and I wouldn't be seeing the same faces on the interview trail. Also, I think the most diverse schools (i.e. UofMichigan, UCLA) have close to 20% URM, but most schools have around 10% of their class URM.

URMs definitely have an advantage, but its for a good reason. There just wouldn't be enough of them to represent medicine and become leaders in their community. They are NOT all people that have mediocre scores, most of those that I know have ABOVE average scores and incredible extracurriculars w/their respective communities. I do agree that others are also well qualified to help minority populations, for example the UC Irvine PRIME-LC program has not only Latino kids in there, but ppl from all backgrounds involved with becoming leaders/advocates for the Latino population of California.

I also agree about URMs that have had no kind of disadvantage in their life, and that it is unfair that they get preference over others. That just isn't right, in fact I would say about half of the Latino students I have seen during interviews have been well off (their parents are professionals). This isn't a bad thing, but it IS a bad thing if they are getting into med schools saying that they will help their undserved community, but end up going into a high paying specialization where they only see patients that pay them lots of money. Thats not right, but I'm not sure how to fix that. I think what others said before on this thread is true, that there needs some kind of socioeconomic factor that comes into play when selecting URMs. I know that admissions committees are very smart, and I am sure that they can see which URM students will really diversify their student populations and which ones will be like any other applicant.

Please don't believe that URMs are stealing your spot! Its sad to think that some people really believe this. If they believe that you are good/great fit for their school they would have interviewed/accepted you! I really believe that wil awesome extracurriculars within underserved communities, especially with leadership involvements, and passion for working with these groups, that ANYONE (not just URMs) can get into a great school.

Good luck everyone!

BTW, does anyone know how to fix this problem so we can get more minority students go into medicine/science instead of becoming pandilleros/gangstas?

Edit: just added a few things to the above..

 

[NonTradMed]

Wow, I am impressed in seeing one of the few URM threads that has some good points!

I agree with somewhere2010. There are two reasons why URM status helps, 1. statistically more likely to help the underserved as a future physician b/c its usually their own community. 2. to increase the diversity of medical schools classes to better represent all populations/communities.

The reality is that there are NOT a lot of URMs out there, because if that were the case then schools wouldn't be fighting over them, and I wouldn't be seeing the same faces on the interview trail. Also, I think the most diverse schools (i.e. UofMichigan, UCLA) have close to 20% URM, but most schools have around 10% of their class URM.

URMs definitely have an advantage, but its for a good reason. There just wouldn't be enough of them to represent medicine and become leaders in their community. They are NOT all people that have mediocre scores, most of those that I know have ABOVE average scores and incredible extracurriculars. I do agree that others are also well qualified to help minority populations, for example the UC Irvine PRIME-LC program has not only Latino kids in there, but ppl from all backgrounds involved with becoming leaders/advocates for the Latino population of California.

I also agree about URMs that have had no kind of disadvantage in their life, and that it is unfair that they get preference over others. That just isn't right, in fact I would say about half of the Latino students I have seen during interviews have been well off (their parents are professionals). This isn't a bad thing, but it IS a bad thing if they are getting into med schools saying that they will help their undserved community, but end up going into a high paying specialization where they only see patients that pay them lots of money. Thats not right, but I'm not sure how to fix that. I think what others said before on this thread is true, that there needs some kind of socioeconomic factor that comes into play when selecting URMs. I know that admissions committees are very smart, and I am sure that they can see which URM students will really diversify their student populations and which ones will be like any other applicant.

Please don't believe that URMs are stealing your spot! Its sad to think that some people really believe this. If they believe that you are good/great fit for their school they would have interviewed/accepted you!

Good luck everyone!

BTW, does anyone know how to fix this problem so we can get more minority students go into medicine/science instead of becoming pandilleros/gangstas?

You make some good points, but I would venture to say, any spots taken by anyone, whether qualified or unqualified, is a spot taken from someone else.

Med school seats stays relatively stable, so yes, someone is being left out when someone else is let in. I'm sure there are URMs that are qualified for positions in med school but your quote that most URMs you know have above average stats would put them in the minority of URM matriculants as told by AAMC:

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm

I pointed out the comparative stats for whites/asians/blacks/mexicans to highlight some inequalities in the stats of matriculants. It's in my above post upthread if you are interested.

I also understand the need to increase URM doctors is to increase the number of physicians in underserved areas, but I think the problem with AA and allowing URMs in with lower stats is that it makes people resentful when there's already limited spacing and it does URMs a disfavor because some may have actually been qualified to get in, while others may have been unqualified to enter, thus making it more difficult to catch up once in school.

The key to increasing minority involvement in the sciences isn't to lowering the bar, it's the channel funding into programs that will encourage URMs, poor minorities to stay in school and to generate an interest in the sciences in them, and hence become competitive for med school etc.

 

[Law2Doc]

I pointed out the comparative stats for whites/asians/blacks/mexicans to highlight some inequalities in the stats of matriculants. It's in my above post upthread if you are interested.

I think if you broke this out more regionally the range wouldn't be as bad.

But I continue to think folks are dwelling too much on a small number of seats. There are lots of other spots to be had.

 

[eastsidaz]

What I don't understand is this: affirmative action already exists, in some form or another, at every well-respected undergrad institution. Why do URMs need the boost again? In theory, by the time you reach the med school applicant pool, there should be little variance in GPA and MCAT across races, providing the same proportion of the URM population apply to med school as the white population.

 

[seanjohn]

Thankfully in Canada we do not have such overtly racist policies such as affirmative action that would undermine the values of our nation. When Canadians apply to medical, law, or dental school there are no boxes to check off to indicate what race you are, because that would simply be wrong and racist. Why would you let someone's race or ethnicity play a part in the admission process?

In the US it seems that many qualified white individuals are overlooked and rejected in order to accept less qualified black and hispanic applicants. As mentioned earlier, I believe if you're going to discriminate so overtly, at least do it based on socioeconomic status rather than race, because that determines a person's chance of succeeding in this world.

Furthermore, if minorities really are treated so unfairly and discriminated against, then why are Asians (who are the biggest minority of all in the US) not given the same oppurtunities as their black and hispanic minority counterparts because of their race? On the contrary, Asians are probably amongst the newest immigrants and they work hard in school, and study their ass off and do extremely well, some not even knowing english that well. How do you explain that? How can they succeed in such a 'racist' and 'discriminatory' nation such as the US? They seem to be doing quite well, and get in because they deserve it, not because of their skin tone or facial features. If I were to live in the US, I would certainly not pick a minority to be my physician, not because of their skin tone, but because I know that they're less qualified than their white and asian counterparts who actually earned their grades, and earned their spot in medical school based on their knowledge, hard work, personality etc., and as a result, are probably much more competent physicians.

 

[Elastase]

You make some good points, but I would venture to say, any spots taken by anyone, whether qualified or unqualified, is a spot taken from someone else.

Med school seats stays relatively stable, so yes, someone is being left out when someone else is let in. I'm sure there are URMs that are qualified for positions in med school but your quote that most URMs you know have above average stats would put them in the minority of URM matriculants as told by AAMC:

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm

I pointed out the comparative stats for whites/asians/blacks/mexicans to highlight some inequalities in the stats of matriculants. It's in my above post upthread if you are interested.

I also understand the need to increase URM doctors is to increase the number of physicians in underserved areas, but I think the problem with AA and allowing URMs in with lower stats is that it makes people resentful when there's already limited spacing and it does URMs a disfavor because some may have actually been qualified to get in, while others may have been unqualified to enter, thus making it more difficult to catch up once in school.

The key to increasing minority involvement in the sciences isn't to lowering the bar, it's the channel funding into programs that will encourage URMs, poor minorities to stay in school and to generate an interest in the sciences in them, and hence become competitive for med school etc.

I understand the disfavor you mentioned, but the reality is that medical school is very doable. With hardwork/motivation anyone can get through the material...there is tons of support at most med schools. Medical schools would NOT admit someone that they believe will not do well. They do not want to have stats where they have students dropping out, especially minority students (just because like you said, they don't want to be know for admitting students w/lower than average stats that fail).

The key that you mentioned to increasing minority students, is REALLY hard/difficult! I've been working with inner city youth for a while, and even as a college-graduate/premedical student, I get some respect for sure because I can relate and talk like them, but its hard to convince them that science is easy/doable. There are so many factors working against minority students, especially inner city kids that have so much more on their minds (like most kids but other socioeconomic factors, the media also plays a large role, hip-hop music reggetone, etc.) that prevent them from doing well and staying motivated.

 

[CristaGalli]

This thinking is the exact reason why so many of you are weeded out during interviews. You all are so quick to jump on the theory that the best person i.e; best mcat scores and gpa, is the person that deserves the seat. I wonder where that would leave medicine if this were the case.
There are so many other factors that contribute to medicine and mcat scores or even board scores are hardly any of them. Instead persisitence, dedication, communication, and drive are qualities that are sought out and are what make medicine progress.
I feel sorry for all you xbox playing, no friends, never spent time with anyone aside from your race, got my 40S ont he mcat, 4.0 gpa...but why the heck am i not accepted anywhere? Let me blame it on the URM who has a 27mcat, 3.5 gpa, who is more personable, who can add diversity to medicine, who has drive and focus.
Seriously get over it. Its not always about the best of the best, sometimes that good test taker is of no use socially.

 

[Law2Doc]

Thankfully in Canada we do not have such overtly racist policies such as affirmative action that would undermine the values of our nation. When Canadians apply to medical, law, or dental school there are no boxes to check off to indicate what race you are, because that would simply be wrong and racist. Why would you let someone's race or ethnicity play a part in the admission process?

In the US it seems that many qualified white individuals are overlooked and rejected in order to accept less qualified black and hispanic applicants. As mentioned earlier, I believe if you're going to discriminate so overtly, at least do it based on socioeconomic status rather than race, because that determines a person's chance of succeeding in this world.

Furthermore, if minorities really are treated so unfairly and discriminated against, then why are Asians (who are the biggest minority of all in the US) not given the same oppurtunities as their black and hispanic minority counterparts? On the contrary, the Asians are probably amongst the newest immigrants and they work hard in school, and study their ass off and do extremely well, some not even knowing english that well. How do you explain that? How can they succeed in such a 'racist' and 'discriminatory' nation such as the US? They seem to be doing quite well, and get in because they deserve it.

The answers to some of your questions stem from a pre-civil war US history which Canada does not share. Asians largely came to the US much later, under very different circumstances, and have not been as stymied professionally as other races in the US, and so they don't benefit from the current policy. And FWIW, the actual impact of aa in the med school process is majorly exaggerated on SDN.

 

[DrHuang]

The answers to some of your questions stem from a pre-civil war US history which Canada does not share. Asians largely came to the US much later, under very different circumstances, and have not been as stymied professionally as other races in the US, and so they don't benefit from the current policy. And FWIW, the actual impact of aa in the med school process is majorly exaggerated on SDN.

i disagree. i think its because asians are AWESOME.

but seriously, this subject always ends up as a flame war...might as well shut it down now.

 

[seanjohn]

The answers to some of your questions stem from a pre-civil war US history which Canada does not share. Asians largely came to the US much later, under very different circumstances, and have not been as stymied professionally as other races in the US, and so they don't benefit from the current policy. And FWIW, the actual impact of aa in the med school process is majorly exaggerated on SDN.

Alright, fair enough, but again, what about the minority child whose father is a professional athlete, or musician, or hollywood actor? Or the minority child whose father is a physician, or lawyer, or dentist? They have just as much oppurtunity as anyone else, if not more, yet they can get sub-par grades and be accepted to professional school simply because of their race. That is unfair, unjust, and simply racist. Base such a policy on socioeconomic status, not on race or ethnicity.