Disturbing Trend

[Elastase]

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If I were to live in the US, I would certainly not pick a minority to be my physician, not because of their skin tone, but because I know that they're less qualified than their white and asian counterparts who actually earned their grades, and earned their spot in medical school based on their knowledge, hard work, personality etc., and as a result, are probably much more competent physicians.

There are MANY things that just don't make sense about your post! This is why I try to avoid getting sucked into these threads...

You stated that personality is related to hardwork/knowledge, that make no sense!

Competency as a physician is NOT just based on scores! Thats why they take EVERYTHING into account when you apply to medical school (besides MCAT/GPA there are LOR, essays, interview, extracurriculars, etc). If it were based on grades then why make such a complicated system for admissions?

Anyways to be a competent physician it definitely requires knowledge, thats why in order to become a physician you have to pass MULTIPLE tests! There is also being able to empathize and listen to your patient! If you are a minority physician you would probably more likely be able to do this with the increasing minority populations.

 

[Law2Doc]

Alright, fair enough, but again, what about the minority child whose father is a professional athlete, or musician, or hollywood actor? Or the minority child whose father is a physician, or lawyer, or dentist? They have just as much oppurtunity as anyone else, if not more, yet they can get sub-par grades and be accepted to professional school simply because of their race. That is unfair, unjust, and simply racist. Base such a policy on socioeconomic status, not on race or ethnicity.

It's a much simpler system to have a simple check the box than to try and evaluate who merits special treatment on a case by case system. The number of kids of professional athletes, musicians, hollywood actors and other high income types is dwarfed by the number of folks whose parents are at the other extreme -- hence the broad brush policy. Sure, it unfairly benefits a few, but works as intended the vast majority of the time -- that's the price of simplicity and a workable system.

 

[seanjohn]

There are MANY things that just don't make sense about your post! This is why I try to avoid getting sucked into these threads...

You stated that personality is related to hardwork/knowledge, that make no sense!

Competency as a physician is NOT just based on scores! Thats why they take EVERYTHING into account when you apply to medical school (besides MCAT/GPA there are LOR, essays, interview, extracurriculars, etc). If it were based on grades then why make such a complicated system for admissions?

Anyways to be a competent physician it definitely requires knowledge, thats why in order to become a physician you have to pass MULTIPLE tests! There is also being able to emphathize and listen to your patient! If you are a minority physician you would probably more likely be able to do this with the increasing minority populations.

First of all, I never said personality is related to hardwork/knowledge, although it can be. A person with a type A personality a.k.a. 'the gunner' is motivated, hardworking, and willing to make sacrifices in order to achieve their goal, whereas someone who is lazy, unmotivated, and apathetic will not be successful, and will most likely not be knowledgable or hardworking.

Secondly, just to cement my point, these minority matriculants are not accepted based on their personality, LOR's, etc... they're accepted based on their race! Sure someone with less than stellar academic scores can be a competent physician, but that's not the reason why they accept these minorities. It's not because of their spectacular personality, it's because of their skin colour, and that's wrong and also extremely racist!

 

[Law2Doc]

Competency as a physician is NOT just based on scores! Thats why they take EVERYTHING into account when you apply to medical school (besides MCAT/GPA there are LOR, essays, interview, extracurriculars, etc). If it were based on grades then why make such a complicated system for admissions?

This echoes one of the first things I posted in this thread. Most of the folks complaining about folks getting in with lesser scores are probably losing out to many many more folks of the same race as them with lesser scores. Because this is not totally a number driven system. You need to be a very well rounded broad experienced applicant to get the brass ring. Plenty of high MCAT, high GPA types don't get into med school due to crummy essays, poor interviewing skills, bad LORs or various other application blemishes. The best way to fix it is to focus on your own shortcomings and not start looking for other people who got in to blame or be jealous of.

 

[infiniti]

Well *I* have a URM friend, and *her* parents make twenty Gazillion! dollars a year, and *she*'s never faced *any* discrimination in her life, and she got into *all these schools!* And...I dunno, I think she got a 40 on the MCAT or something, and she had a 3.94 or *something* like that, but it was TOTALLY AA that got her in! The system needs to CHAANGE, Man!!!!

LOL.The applicant you described above is my academic twin (except for the being rich part). But wait, AA got me in 😱 . It is funny because I know so many URM with ridiculous stats in medical school. All my URM friends in college did well above the average and are 1st and second year med students now. But wait, the only got in because they were URM's.

As for URM's having to prove themselves. A lot of them do, but not by quoting their stats. Their work will speak for itself.

 

[Elastase]

First of all, I never said personality is related to hardwork/knowledge, although it can be. A person with a type A personality a.k.a. 'the gunner' is motivated, hardworking, and willing to make sacrifices in order to achieve their goal, whereas someone who is lazy, unmotivated, and apathetic will not be successful, and will most likely not be knowledgable or hardworking.

Secondly, just to cement my point, these minority matriculants are not accepted based on their personality, LOR's, etc... they're accepted based on their race! Sure someone with less than stellar academic scores can be a competent physician, but that's not the reason why they accept these minorities. It's not because of their spectacular personality, it's because of their skin colour, and that's wrong!

seanjohn = puffdaddy. Haha, sorry I just made that association...

You are basing the admissions process too much on race! You are personally not on an admissions panel, how could you know how much emphasis is based on URM status?

There is definite weight being URM, but it is not the only factor! The stats at AAMC for applied/accepted about the same for all races (its around 50%+).

Anyways, I justify posting on these threads just to help people better understand the URM issue, people back me up!

 

[halperinj]

Subtle discrimination is pervasive through out our country. Removing URM boxes or even basing affirmative action policies on purely economic status will not uproot our country's history of race relations. I recognize that deep economic, political, social and cultural changes are necessary to truly enact a society based on equal opportunity and that affirmative action is not the full answer. But policies that take into consideration the deep seated prejudice that pervades our society are a step in the right direction.

Here is an example of why "race-blind" solutions are short sighted. Check out this 2003 study from MIT and U of Chicago.

http://www.nber.com/papers/w9873

The Findings of the study are as follows: People with "white-sounding" names are 50 percent more likely to get a response to their (exact same) resume than are those with "black-sounding" names.

 

[MediMama23]

First of all, I never said personality is related to hardwork/knowledge, although it can be. A person with a type A personality a.k.a. 'the gunner' is motivated, hardworking, and willing to make sacrifices in order to achieve their goal, whereas someone who is lazy, unmotivated, and apathetic will not be successful, and will most likely not be knowledgable or hardworking.

Secondly, just to cement my point, these minority matriculants are not accepted based on their personality, LOR's, etc... they're accepted based on their race! Sure someone with less than stellar academic scores can be a competent physician, but that's not the reason why they accept these minorities. It's not because of their spectacular personality, it's because of their skin colour, and that's wrong!

YIKES!!! I've just been browsing, but this one forced me out of my shell. You're speculating. You don't know what incredible things these URMs have done or gone through to come out on top and get accepted or just to achieve in life in general. Maybe some of them have done amazing things; maybe some haven't. The point is, you know NOTHING about them. You, just like many others in America, take a look at a person's skin color and automatically assume (read: make yourself an A$$) that if they've acquired anything good for themselves in life, that it MUST have come as a hand-me down or because someone felt sorry for them. You're also that type of person who crosses the street late at night when two black men are walking by, because you automatically assume that they're going to try to jack you for your wallet.

Good luck to you, brother.

 

[seanjohn]

YIKES!!! I've just been browsing, but this one forced me out of my shell. You're speculating. You don't know what incredible things these URMs have done or gone through to come out on top and get accepted or just to achieve in life in general. Maybe some of them have done amazing things; maybe some haven't. The point is, you know NOTHING about them. You, just like many others in America, take a look at a person's skin color and automatically assume (read: make yourself an A$$) that if they've acquired anything good for themselves in life, that it MUST have come as a hand-me down or because someone felt sorry for them. You're also that type of person who crosses the street late at night when two black men are walking by, because you automatically assume that they're going to try to jack you for your wallet.

Good luck to you, brother.

Jesus Christ, hypocrisy at its finest. First you say that *I* make assumptions, yet in that very same paragraph *YOU* make assumptions about me!

I won't even dignify your *****ic and hypocritical post with anymore words, truly disgusting.

 

[NehsNairb]

The answers to some of your questions stem from a pre-civil war US history which Canada does not share. Asians largely came to the US much later, under very different circumstances, and have not been as stymied professionally as other races in the US, and so they don't benefit from the current policy. And FWIW, the actual impact of aa in the med school process is majorly exaggerated on SDN.

That's a bunch of bull. Although Asians might not have come before the Civil War, plenty came before the 19th Century ended. Most of them worked on the transcontinental railroad. They received the same amount of discrimination as other minority races. Hell, the government at that time even passed laws limiting the immigration of Asians. And don't forget the racism faced by Japanese-Americans during World War II. I take issue with the notion that Asian-Americans have always been treated fairly in this country.

 

[MediMama23]

Jesus Christ, hypocrisy at its finest. First you say that *I* make assumptions, yet in that very same paragraph *YOU* make assumptions about me!

I won't even dignify your *****ic and hypocritical post with anymore words, truly disgusting.

I make assumptions about you because you're close-minded, and I'm not too far off the mark if you're going to get so offended by it. I'd like to see you NOT get accepted to medical school and NOT blame it on URMs. Then I'll retract my statement.

 

[seanjohn]

That's a bunch of bull. Although Asians might have come before the Civil War, plenty came before the 19th Century ended. Most of them worked on the transcontinental railroad. They received the same amount of discrimination as other minority races. Hell, the government at that time even passed laws limiting the immigration of Asians. And don't forget the racism faced by Japanese-Americans during World War II. I take issue with the notion that Asian-Americans have always been treated fairly in this country.

well said, I completely agree! 🙂

 

[GasGuy2010]

Affirmative Action came into practice to help individuals that did not grow up with the same educational advantages as someone from a more affluent background. And in the majority of cases this has historically been African Americans, Latinos, etc.

So I understand how it is necessary to "level the playing field" when entering college for many people that grew up in a poor educational system due to poverty. And in many cases I can understand how this should continue even after the "playing field has been leveled" after college because a lifetime of poorer education cannot be made up in simply 4 short years.

However, I do not believe it is fair for affluent or middle class URM's to take such an advantage because they did not have to overcome any educational disparity whatsoever. These individuals had the same advantages as every other middle class individual irrespective of race.

To the arguement that the affirmative action advantage in medical school allows minorities to represent and take care of a population that is not readily seen in the medical environment: Why would an affluent URM go to a minority, poverty stricken environment after graduating from medical school? He/she is not going "back" because he/she never came from there. The person would likely work in a setting they have known all their lives. So the idea that AA helps minority physicians take care of a minority populations does not seem plausible for affluent minorities who will most likely never "return" to somewhere they never came from. The AA advantage is plausible, however, for many URMS's that DID come from such a disadvantaged background and want to help the people in the environent he/she grew up around.

Like a previous poster I believe that looking at race without looking at the socioeconomic status of the individual is not fair. Take for instance a rural, poor, white individual or an Asian that grew up in the Chinatown of a major city. In both these cases the person grew up with serious substandard educational opportunities due to poverty. However these same individuals are now forced to compete (WITHOUT any affirmative action advantage to enter college or medical school) with the affluent white, black, latino, and asian individuals that grew up with every educational advantage in the world. Is it really fair for these individuals who do have such an educational disparity to be given such a disadvantage compared to an affluent URM that had the same educational opportunities as any other middle-class individual??

 

[RxnMan]

The Findings of the study are as follows: People with "white-sounding" names are 50 percent more likely to get a response to their (exact same) resume than are those with "black-sounding" names.

Then why not take the names off of applcantions too? Aren't we all assigned an AAMC ID number anyways?

 

[seanjohn]

I make assumptions about you because you're close-minded and an idiot, and I'm not too far off the mark if you're going to get so offended by it. I'd like to see you NOT get accepted to medical school and NOT blame it on URMs. Then I'll retract my statement.

If I don't get accepted to medical school, I can't blame it on "URM's" because I'm not applying to the US. I only applied to Canadian medical and dental schools where we don't have such racist policies such as affirmative action. With that said, if I were to live in the US I would definately seek a physician who is competent and deserved to get into medical school based on their academic merits, and not on their skin tone.

The fact that you make assumptions about others that you don't know, and call others names, shows how mature you are, and shows how insecure you are because you can only resort to personal attacks when your weak argument is backed into a corner.

 

[Elastase]

To the arguement that the affirmative action advantage in medical school allows minorities to represent and take care of a population that is not readily seen in the medical environment: Why would an affluent URM go to a minority, poverty stricken environment after graduating from medical school? He/she is not going "back" because he/she never came from there. The person would likely work in a setting they have known all their lives. So the idea that AA helps minority physicians take care of a minority populations does not seem plausible for affluent minorities who will most likely never "return" to somewhere they never came from. The AA advantage is plausible, however, for many URMS's that DID come from such a disadvantaged background and want to help the people in the environent he/she grew up around.

This is definitely true. It does seem unfair, but I think that admissions committees realize this and take this into consideration. Also, those URMs that come from more affluent families are also much more likely to do well at their schoolwork, making them equally competative as non-URMs.

 

[Elastase]

I sincerely hope you're not applying to medical school, it would be a truly sad day for your nation if a simpleton like you got accepted.

Awww please don't take it personally!

Everyone try to not make personal attacks...just doesn't make sense to.

 

[Law2Doc]

That's a bunch of bull. Although Asians might have come before the Civil War, plenty came before the 19th Century ended. Most of them worked on the transcontinental railroad. They received the same amount of discrimination as other minority races. Hell, the government at that time even passed laws limiting the immigration of Asians. And don't forget the racism faced by Japanese-Americans during World War II. I take issue with the notion that Asian-Americans have always been treated fairly in this country.

I absolutely never said there was no anti-Asian discrimination or that they have always been treated fairly in the US. You are reading something into my post that isn't there. But based on census data according to the US government (not me), Asians as a people have not been as hindered in attending higher education or achieving comparable professional success as caucasians, and hence they are not similarly preferenced by aa.

But as I said before, all this discussion is fruitless and silly -- make yourself the best applicant you can, and stop worrying about who else is getting what.

 

[prettymd05]

it IS a bad thing if they are getting into med schools saying that they will help their undserved community, but end up going into a high paying specialization where they only see patients that pay them lots of money. Thats not right, but I'm not sure how to fix that.

You know what I agreed with most of the things you said except for the above quote. PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR MINDS! Yes, people who say they will help the underserved without any intention of doing so just to get into the school are being blatantly dishonest. but if one were to say that during an interview and then ended up loving plastics and wanted to go into that field --that is their right. Who the hell gave minorities the heavy burden to carry that they must serve the underserved in order to be somewhat worthy to get into medical school because ultimately they will be the ones to help out their community?!?! EVERYONE FROM ALL RACES should pitch in to help the underserved- irrespective of RACE or ETHNICITY because as some of you so nicely put it URM are not the only ones that are disadvantaged in this country.

 

[Law2Doc]

but if one were to say that during an interview and then ended up loving plastics and wanted to go into that field --that is their right.

The underserved need boob jobs too.

 

[MediMama23]

If I don't get accepted to medical school, I can't blame it on "URM's" because I'm not applying to the US. I only applied to Canadian medical and dental schools where we don't have such racist policies such as affirmative action. With that said, if I were to live in the US I would definately seek a physician who is competent and deserved to get into medical school based on their academic merits, and not on their skin tone.

The fact that you make assumptions about others that you don't know, and call others names, shows how mature you are, and shows how insecure you are because you can only resort to personal attacks when your weak argument is backed into a corner.

Well look who's talking. And so you didn't make a personal attack? Ok. 😴

You know what, seanjohn? I want to apologize to you. Obviously, I shouldn't have stooped to your level of assuming, but I did, and I do regret it. I just hope that when you meet a doctor whose race is underrepresented in the medical field compared to the general population, that you will look past his/her skin color and realize that they have much to offer and that THEY MADE IT, not because of their skin color, but because they truly had what it took to be a doctor. They passed their boards, and they are practicing. I hope you can open your mind just a little bit more and not think that those who aren't considered URMs are getting snubbed by people underrepresented in medicine. Every year, every seat is open. It doesn't HAVE to be filled by anyone with any particular set of criteria. It's what YOU do and how YOU conduct yourself that is going to determine whether or not you're worthy of your seat. I plan to do my best, as I'm sure everyone else will, not only to get that seat, but to take advantage of it and do my potential medical school proud in their decision.

Good luck to you.

 

[prettymd05]

This thinking is the exact reason why so many of you are weeded out during interviews. You all are so quick to jump on the theory that the best person i.e; best mcat scores and gpa, is the person that deserves the seat. I wonder where that would leave medicine if this were the case.
There are so many other factors that contribute to medicine and mcat scores or even board scores are hardly any of them. Instead persisitence, dedication, communication, and drive are qualities that are sought out and are what make medicine progress.
I feel sorry for all you xbox playing, no friends, never spent time with anyone aside from your race, got my 40S ont he mcat, 4.0 gpa...but why the heck am i not accepted anywhere? Let me blame it on the URM who has a 27mcat, 3.5 gpa, who is more personable, who can add diversity to medicine, who has drive and focus.
Seriously get over it. Its not always about the best of the best, sometimes that good test taker is of no use socially.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[star22]

If I don't get accepted to medical school, I can't blame it on "URM's" because I'm not applying to the US. I only applied to Canadian medical and dental schools where we don't have such racist policies such as affirmative action. With that said, if I were to live in the US I would definately seek a physician who is competent and deserved to get into medical school based on their academic merits, and not on their skin tone.

The fact that you make assumptions about others that you don't know, and call others names, shows how mature you are, and shows how insecure you are because you can only resort to personal attacks when your weak argument is backed into a corner.

At one interview I went to, they explained that medicine is challenging in ways that go far beyond academic knowledge (not to mention building a trustful relationship with patients has nothing to do with academia) and because of that they looked for students that had faced some personal challenge in the past and were able to persevere. In this way, I think if someone had an exceptionally difficult childhood (i.e. grew up in gang-infested inner-city neighborhood, or a super impoverished rural area, etc.), we should cut them some slack, since they will probably have the resiliance to make it through future difficulties. However, to say that adversity is race-specific is not accurate. The Texas application asks very thourough questions about your background to determine if you were disadvantaged, and I think this is a far better indicator.

Also, just because you are of a particular ethnicity, it doesn't mean that you are better equiped to relate to others of that ethnicity (i.e. there are MANY second and third generation Hispanic URMs that aren't conversant in Spanish).

 

[SuzieQ3417]

But as I said before, all this discussion is fruitless and silly -- make yourself the best applicant you can, and stop worrying about who else is getting what.

They seem to be missing this point completelely. 🙂

 

[Will Hunting]

The ignorance in this thread on both sides is amazing. I won't even bother jumping in the discussion.

 

[GasGuy2010]

They seem to be missing this point completelely. 🙂

I think intelligently discussing an issue, however, does have merits. If there was never any discussion better practices and policies would never develop. We'd still have segregation if no one was willing to talk about about various issues.

 

[gafft]

Instead of hypotheticals, let's deal in facts.

FACT: A 2006 first year at Harvard that I KNOW, scored a 28 on the MCAT. She is half Jewish and half African-American. Did she get into Harvard on merit? Cha.

The fact is that if you search the profiles for accepted students to ivy med schools, every single profile accepted with MCAT less than 32 is either Hispanic or African-American. URMs get a free ticket because schools value diversity more than merit/potential in many cases.

Deal with it.

 

[WestTexasRambler]

Well *I* have a URM friend, and *her* parents make twenty Gazillion! dollars a year, and *she*'s never faced *any* discrimination in her life, and she got into *all these schools!* And...I dunno, I think she got a 40 on the MCAT or something, and she had a 3.94 or *something* like that, but it was TOTALLY AA that got her in! The system needs to CHAANGE, Man!!!!

Quoted - "URMs get a free ticket because schools value diversity more than merit/potential in many cases."

I would honestly like to hear some discussion on this topic as I used to believe that diversity was very overvalued but I have changed my mind for various reasons. FWIW, I am caucasian and grew up in what most anyone would call a disadvantaged environment, thank God for grandparents. Anyone who has an opinion on the value of diversity, please share.

Let's get it on!!!!!! [Big John McCarthy voice]


'Rambler

 

[Elastase]

You know what I agreed with most of the things you said except for the above quote. PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR MINDS! Yes, people who say they will help the underserved without any intention of doing so just to get into the school are being blatantly dishonest. but if one were to say that during an interview and then ended up loving plastics and wanted to go into that field --that is their right. Who the hell gave minorities the heavy burden to carry that they must serve the underserved in order to be somewhat worthy to get into medical school because ultimately they will be the ones to help out their community?!?! EVERYONE FROM ALL RACES should pitch in to help the underserved- irrespective of RACE or ETHNICITY because as some of you so nicely put it URM are not the only ones that are disadvantaged in this country.

Your right, people can definitely change their minds. The ideal thing to happen is exactly what you said, is having everyone contribute to helping underserved communities.

There just isn't as much as incentive for people from different backgrounds to do this though...it usually has to be at a personal level in order for someone to decide to for example, work in the Watts area of LA as opposed to the more affluent parts of LA where they get paid more.

 

[SuzieQ3417]

I think intelligently discussing an issue, however, does have merits. If there was never any discussion better practices and policies would never develop. We'd still have segregation if no one was willing to talk about about various issues.

I agree, but problems arise when people get personally offended and then drop the discussion to fire insults at each other. I was honestly surprised that it took longer than the first page for this to occur on this thread given the topic. I think some people have been making very good points, and I like to hear both sides. It allows you to view the situation from a perspective besides your own, regardless of whether you agree/disagree.

 

[Law2Doc]

Instead of hypotheticals, let's deal in facts.

FACT: A 2006 first year at Harvard that I KNOW, scored a 28 on the MCAT. She is half Jewish and half African-American. Did she get into Harvard on merit? Cha.

The fact is that if you search the profiles for accepted students to ivy med schools, every single profile accepted with MCAT less than 32 is either Hispanic or African-American. URMs get a free ticket because schools value diversity more than merit/potential in many cases.

Deal with it.

Anecdotal evidence about one or a handful of people is meaningless. And you are making gross assumptions as to what made adcoms interested in a particular applicant. I suspect there are caucasians with low MCATs at good schools as well. And if you are relying on MDApplicants for data, don't, for the reasons stated earlier in the thread -- it is not reasonably accurate or representative of the applicant pool. There are no free tickets, and it is naive to assume you know what adcoms are selecting for without the same access to the full application that they have.

 

[Mixtli]

AA = Racism. PERIOD!!! I don't give what color my doc is. Do you? There are hundreds of people who grew up disadvantaged but can't use the URM status. Thats bull crap. They are the ones hurt most by AA. Most URM aren't disadvantaged. They come from middle to upper class families.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

If you were a good enough candidate, there is no reason someone, ANYONE, should have taken your spot. Maybe instead of having your spot taken from you, you gave it away because you couldn't take care of business.

I'm a proponent of AA. Anyone who thinks that AA has not been beneficial to this country is historically ignorant and doesn't understand the situation. That said, AA does have problems, as everyone is aware. I think we are approaching the point where a wealthy minority can receive a quality education and not live a particularly difficult life because of their skin color, and therefore we should start progressing towards AA based on socioeconomic status. In the past (and still in the present to a lesser degree), this may not have always been true, and even wealthy minorities may have had significant hurdles to overcome.

So I think that part of the problem is that we are (or should be) in the midst of transitioning from race-based AA to socioeconomic-based AA. I'm not saying I think AA is past it's time. It still has a very important role in equalizing our society. I just think that as the societal dynamics of the country change, so should AA policies.

 

[GasGuy2010]

A few questions:

1) Why is it usually the assumption that a URM with below standard "numbers" is more compassionate, personable, socially conscious, etc than a non URM with average or above average "numbers?" There doesn't seem to be any data or merit in just assuming that. It could easily go either way.

2) This entire medical application process is pretty much geared towards the middle class and up. The poor are at a huge disadvantage because they are the ones that can't afford to take 1500 dollar MCAT prep classes, pay 1000 dollars for the primary application, pay 100 dollars per secondary, apply to 15-20 schools so that you can get into a few. This being the case it seems that most of the URM's applying to medical school are not poor or disadvantaged, but instead middle class and up, so what disadvantage is exactly a URM advantage supposed to make up for?

 

[lynnier79]

we are worried about choosing a doctor here?

lets just remember that in order to actually become a doctor, and to graduate from medical school that EVERYONE has to pass the boards and pass classes, rotations, residencies (of required) etc. the passing bar on these exams and classes is set such that each person who does this is as qualified as the next. unlike the MCAT, this test requires a certain grade to move on, and there is really very little wiggle room.

so by the time one gets to choosing a doctor, i think the playing field is pretty much level. there is no way to know if a URM doctor did well or poorly on the boards. if he or she really couldn't hack it at med school, and really wasn't qualified, then he or she would not have passed the boards, and wouldnt be a doctor. the passing grade is no lower or higher for any URM than anyone else.

 

[Elastase]

Just to remind people, that there IS a disadvantaged section in the AMCAS (application for medical school). You have to write a short essay about your struggles, experiences for being disadvantaged. This is absolutely not based on race/ethnicity.

I completely disagree that most URMs aren't disadvantaged, thats just not true. Personally, the URMs that I do know have claimed the disadvantaged status on top of the URM status.

 

[seanjohn]

Let's face it... only in America can a poor, black, boy turn into a rich, white, woman.












i.e. Michael Jackson.

 

[Elastase]

A few questions:

1) Why is it usually the assumption that a URM with below standard "numbers" is more compassionate, personable, socially conscious, etc than a non URM with average or above average "numbers?" There doesn't seem to be any data or merit in just assuming that. It could easily go either way.


2) This entire medical application process is pretty much geared towards the middle class and up. The poor are at a huge disadvantage because they are the ones that can't afford to take 1500 dollar MCAT prep classes, pay 1000 dollars for the primary application, pay 100 dollars per secondary, apply to 15-20 schools so that you can get into a few. This being the case it seems that most of the URM's applying to medical school are not poor or disadvantaged, but instead middle class and up, so what disadvantage is exactly a URM advantage supposed to make up for?

1.)Usually the URMs that have lower stats, come from disadvantaged backgrounds. So I guess what they have are the experiences of knowing what disadvantaged is (for example, the latino population is 30% uninsured, that is a HUGE barrier to access to healthcare). If you understand that being uninsured or underinsured is, then you will probably help to tackle this disparity. So I guess its the experiences that they are more likely to have.

2.) I'm not sure where people are getting that most URMs are middle class and up. Can someone pull stats for this? As far as I am concerned the URMs that I know are usually disadvantaged...meaning that they come from poor backgrounds, and do not have the same resources (like what was stated above) to do well...

 

[gcomplex7]

....and how many times have great minds who happen to be URM's been overlooked (for every instance you can think about, I can give you at least ten instances.). As I said before, the insecure ones will whine. Great applicants know there is nothing to be afraid about. I find it rather funny that in a class of about 140 there are total of 10 minority students, yet people whine. A lot of you are about to be intimidated when you start medical school, especially if you go to a top ranked school. A lot of minority students there are cream of the crop. I look forward to seeing some of you with this mindset in med school.

You read my mind! We will see them.

 

[Law2Doc]

Let's face it... only in America can a poor, black, boy turn into a rich, white, woman.


i.e. Michael Jackson.

I actually don't think he was poor as a child -- the Jackson Five was a hit when he was very small. 😀

 

[star22]

I completely disagree that most URMs aren't disadvantaged, thats just not true. Personally, the URMs that I do know have claimed the disadvantaged status on top of the URM status.

Not my experience at all. I've known 5 URM applicants... four had wealthy, professional families (three of those were actually 50% white). One was actually disadvantaged.

 

[GasGuy2010]

Yeah we really do needs stats on this because I think everyone is taking it from people they know.

Personally, all the URM's I know that are applying to Medical School (not undergrad) are affluent so that is where I was getting my "data" haha. I hope there are stats somewhere out there for this.

Like a previous poster said, as times change I do believe URM advantage or AA should change as well and it seems the most logical to go to a socioeconomic based system than race based because I thought the whole point was to have individuals that represent these underserved populations in medicine (I could be wrong?).

1.)Usually the URMs that have lower stats, come from disadvantaged backgrounds. So I guess what they have are the experiences of knowing what disadvantaged is (for example, the latino population is 30% uninsured, that is a HUGE barrier to access to healthcare). If you understand that being uninsured or underinsured is, then you will probably help to tackle this disparity. So I guess its the experiences that they are more likely to have.

2.) I'm not sure where people are getting that most URMs are middle class and up. Can someone pull stats for this? As far as I am concerned the URMs that I know are usually disadvantaged...meaning that they come from poor backgrounds, and do not have the same resources (like what was stated above) to do well...

 

[infiniti]

Seanjohn, everyone deserves to have their opinion, but I think you need to learn a few more things about American history. The priviledge of choosing one's physician is only enjoyed by few Americans. Even those people will sometimes find themselves in a situation where they don't have much of a choice. Victims of fatal accidents rushed to the ER don't say, Geez! I don't like this black or latino doctor. May I get a white or Asian doctor that scored at least a 30 on his/her mcat score? Once again, this illustrates that a lot of you guys are still dreaming of an ideal world. Futhermore, I can think of a quite a few URM's that are considered top of their specialty. You will have to be more than lucky to have these folks as your physician. All I can say is that we are all in for some serious lessons. Also URM doctors have yet to complain of patient shortage. The opposite of that seems to be the norm.

Those comparing discrimination against Asian to other URM's especially blacks once again need to relearn American history (oh I forgot, the stuff you learn in school basically leaves out this section 😀 ). First of all, to collectively refer to the discrimination of "all Asians" is somewhat incorrect. Different Asian groups have faced different sort of discrimination (some a lot more than others). Not all Asians benefit from AA. There are however subgroups of "Asians" that are considered URM's and consequently benefit from AA (People on SDN should read the spirit catches you and you fall down). No need to undermine the struggle of any group, but these are two different birds.

I think there is the misconception that the majority of white and Asian applicants have 3.7's and 35mcat. Such numbers are not the norm amongst any group of applicants. There are many Whites (especially) and Asians in medical school with much much lower numbers.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

http://mumford1.dyndns.org/cen2000/BlackWhite/BlackDiversityReport/black-diversity06.htm

Overall Blacks and Hispanics are not doing too well...

 

[GasGuy2010]

I'm not sure how that fits in anywhere because I think we all know that socioeconomically that is the case....

I think the discussion is related to medicine and if these socioeconomically disadvantaged minorities you showed in the chart ARE actually being represented for their communities or not?

http://mumford1.dyndns.org/cen2000/BlackWhite/BlackDiversityReport/black-diversity06.htm

Overall Blacks and Hispanics are not doing too well...

 

[seanjohn]

http://mumford1.dyndns.org/cen2000/BlackWhite/BlackDiversityReport/black-diversity06.htm

Overall Blacks and Hispanics are not doing too well...

Look how well the Asians are doing, once again. The Asians that live in Canada also do extremely well. A few of my asian classmates in high school were new immigrants who barely spoke any english, and I can assure you they weren't very well off. They still managed to do exceptionally well in school, get into great universities, and master the english language in a few short years. There's no excuse for being lazy. Generally speaking, Asians are a prime example of citizens who are hardworking, successful, and accomplished, and this is all done without the help of racist policies such as affirmative action. The black and hispanic population should REALLY learn from the Asians. If they can do it, there's no reason why they can't.

 

[GasGuy2010]

OKay I'm Asian and I think that's taking it too far. It is definetely not that simple....

If you are a poor black person in a crummy community with poor education from the Bronx and the only success you see from your community is someone that made the NBA 6 years back, this person is your role model and who you will emulate. You won't try to be a doctor, professor, business person, etc because you don't know it's possible.

And for anyone that wants to retort this comment below please don't turn this into a personal attack. We actually had a decent discussion going.....

Look how well the Asians are doing, once again. The Asians that live in Canada also do extremely well. A few of my asian classmates in high school were new immigrants who barely spoke any english, and I can assure you they weren't very well off. They still managed to do exceptionally well in school, get into great universities, and master the english language in a few short years. There's no excuse for being lazy. Generally speaking, Asians are a prime example of citizens who are hardworking, successful, and accomplished, and this is all done without the help of racist policies such as affirmative action. The black and hispanic population should REALLY learn from the Asians. If they can do it, there's no reason why they can't.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Look how well the Asians are doing, once again. The Asians that live in Canada also do extremely well. A few of my asian classmates in high school were new immigrants who barely spoke any english, and I can assure you they weren't very well off. They still managed to do exceptionally well in school, get into great universities, and master the english language in a few short years. There's no excuse for being lazy. Generally speaking, Asians are a prime example of citizens who are hardworking, successful, and accomplished, and this is all done without the help of racist policies such as affirmative action. The black and hispanic population should REALLY learn from the Asians. If they can do it, there's no reason why they can't.

Your points are very flawed but, I have better things to do with my time than debate some random Canadian dude about AA in America…

 

[abj]

Look how well the Asians are doing, once again. The Asians that live in Canada also do extremely well. A few of my asian classmates in high school were new immigrants who barely spoke any english, and I can assure you they weren't very well off. They still managed to do exceptionally well in school, get into great universities, and master the english language in a few short years. There's no excuse for being lazy. Generally speaking, Asians are a prime example of citizens who are hardworking, successful, and accomplished, and this is all done without the help of racist policies such as affirmative action. The black and hispanic population should REALLY learn from the Asians. If they can do it, there's no reason why they can't.

So you are suggesting that Asians are hardworking, and Blacks, Latinos, and Native Americans are inherently "lazy?"

The numbers for Asians are invaribly skewed, by the high immigration numbers of educated Asians from countries like India, Vietnam (those who left during/after the war), Japan, and increasingly from China. Even the immigrants from Iran that came over during the entire Ayatollah Khomeini incident were largely educated.

 

[SuzieQ3417]

Look how well the Asians are doing, once again. The Asians that live in Canada also do extremely well. A few of my asian classmates in high school were new immigrants who barely spoke any english, and I can assure you they weren't very well off. They still managed to do exceptionally well in school, get into great universities, and master the english language in a few short years. There's no excuse for being lazy. Generally speaking, Asians are a prime example of citizens who are hardworking, successful, and accomplished, and this is all done without the help of racist policies such as affirmative action. The black and hispanic population should REALLY learn from the Asians. If they can do it, there's no reason why they can't.

If you study that table closely you will see several things: (1) Asians have more education than the other groups on average, and (2) Many are foreign born. It's difficult to draw conclusions from that table, but I would think the Asians who immigrate to the US tend to come from more affluent/highly educated families (on average, simply because the cost of relocation across the ocean is likely to be high). Some come here to get jobs in the research and science sector of our economy...it may be a self-selecting group of individuals, because they will choose to come here only if there is a job available to them and if they can get a visa. Again, I don't know any of this for sure, because I imagine there are a variety of conclusions you can draw depending on your beliefs. I would not, however, use that table to prove that blacks/hispanics are lazy and asians hardworking, as you just did.