DO (Accepted) or Post-Bacc

[Doc_Ock]

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Be sure to keep in mind that once you decline that DO acceptance, you will be pretty much blacklisted at all other DO schools in the future.

This is hogwash. There is no blacklist. That school in particular probably won't, but there isn't some secret list schools pass around to each other. Don't let this paranoia crap scare you.

 

[Doc_Ock]

I think you quoted the wrong person.

corrected, thanks.

 

[unaccpted]

This is hogwash. There is no blacklist. That school in particular probably won't, but there isn't some secret list schools pass around to each other. Don't let this paranoia crap scare you.

I know for a fact AMCAS lets medical schools know which schools you have been accepted through the National Acceptance Report. I'm not sure whether AACOMAS does this or not, but I would be inclined to believe they do something similar.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

The difference is his mcat is so high. If he was sitting at a 510 it would be diff but he has Harvard level mcat. I say it's worth it to at least take a crack at MD. You only live once, might as well make the most of it and do the SMP.

Nothing wrong with DO, but there is a stigma.

A 518 is 97th%ile. Approximately a 36 to us 'old score' folks. A good score, but just that... one data point. I would argue that the GPA says much more (and will hurt much more than the MCAT will help). Having been an applicant with similarly discrepant number I understand where the OP is coming from. I already took 3 years off between med school and undergrad. That was enough. Would I have spent further time with a SMP or with more coursework? Certainly not. Should the OP risk time and money on a SMP and another round of MD applications? That's for them to decide their risk tolerance.

Being four years into a DO program now, my advice would not be any different than it was four years ago... Do the best you can and reach high... but cast a broad net and don't apply anywhere you wouldn't go. Knowing what's attainable is important. Having one data point that is "Harvard level" does not mean one is competitive for HMS. Having applied broadly, only @shadow97 will really know what kind of response their application had and what's potentially realistic for the future.

 

[Doc_Ock]

I know for a fact AMCAS lets medical schools know which schools you have been accepted through the National Acceptance Report. I'm not sure whether AACOMAS does this or not, but I would be inclined to believe they do something similar.

Even if that’s correct, you’re making a huge jump to blacklisting.


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[unaccpted]

Even if that’s correct, you’re making a huge jump to blacklisting.


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Blacklisting may have been a bit of an exaggeration but I don't think schools would just ignore the fact that you declined a previous acceptance. Again, the process is so obscure to us applicants but I'd venture a guess that most schools will be hesitant to accept someone who has declined a previous acceptance.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Blacklisting may have been a bit of an exaggeration but I don't think schools would just ignore the fact that you declined a previous acceptance. Again, the process is so obscure to us applicants but I'd venture a guess that most schools will be hesitant to accept someone who has declined a previous acceptance.

When you assume you make an ass out of u and me.


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[unaccpted]

When you assume you make an ass out of u and me.


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Do you have any evidence for any of your claims?

 

[Doc_Ock]

Do you have any evidence for any of your claims?

You’re the claimant. The burden of proof lies on you.


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[Rhabdoviridae]

SMP is a waste of your time. And, don't go to a DO program now. If you do so anyway, just do the first two years and then transfer to an offshore school to begin clinical rotations. You will avoid much of the things people on here like to whine about (attrition rate, failing STEP etc) and still obtain the coveted MD title.

 

[unaccpted]

You’re the claimant. The burden of proof lies on you.


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AACOMAS Traffic Guidelines

So it seems acceptances to DO schools are indeed reported to AACOMAS. What schools choose to do with that information is unknown to us, but I wouldn't call it hogwash.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

SMP is a waste of your time. And, don't go to a DO program now. If you do so anyway, just do the first two years and then transfer to an offshore school to begin clinical rotations. You will avoid much of the things people on here like to whine about (attrition rate, failing STEP etc) and still obtain the coveted MD title.

Your decision was terrible, and you really need to stop telling people to do the same. Your coveted "MD" won't bring you what you think it will.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Your decision was terrible, and you really need to stop telling people to do the same. Your coveted "MD" won't bring you what you think it will.

Agreed.


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[Rhabdoviridae]

Your decision was terrible, and you really need to stop telling people to do the same. Your coveted "MD" won't bring you what you think it will.

You remind me of one guy I used to know at my last school who was even into hunting too. (just going by your profile pic). He fed me the same lines you do back when I was planning to withdraw...........anyway.... if you were to ever come to the realization that MD=/=DO on your own, you would see that what I have done is find a way to obtain a degree that is far more valuable without having to go through the portion of the program that is known to see high amounts of nonsuccess. I know you are as thick as a brick, but I believe this was a smart move, as does every single doctor I know (parents, grandfather, uncles, sister, personal physicians, the list goes on).

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You remind me of one guy I used to know at my last school who was even into hunting too. (just going by your profile pic). He fed me the same lines you do back when I was planning to withdraw...........anyway.... if you were to ever come to the realization that MD=/=DO on your own, you would see that what I have done is find a way to obtain a degree that is far more valuable without having to go through the portion of the program that is known to see high amounts of nonsuccess. I know you are as thick as a brick, but I believe this was a smart move, as does every single doctor I know (parents, grandfather, uncles, sister, personal physicians, the list goes on).

Please do tell how much "more valuable" your degree is. You have a harsh realization coming, I just wish I could be there to see it.

Oh yeah and if you are going to make an appeal to authority don't use your family members. They aren't the most credible of sources.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

Please do tell how much "more valuable" your degree is. You have a harsh realization coming, I just wish I could be there to see it.

Well I'll talk to you again in 18 months. But for the record, Im pretty sure I scored higher on the boards than you ever will (both COMLEX and USLME if you even took the latter) and have more connections to get me into my specialty of interest. So why don't you take a look at where you are right now. The only reason you would have to go lurk around on this site with such a condescending, bombastic attitude would be that you are a severely unstable person yourself.

 

[bears1992]

Not with a 518. If he did a SMP and reapplied MD and DO he would have DO acceptances out the nose (provided he did well).

He's dead for DO if he turns down an acceptance and reapplies. A 518 doesn't mean anything if you adcoms don't think you'll stick with the program. COCA does not allow schools to have an attrition rate above 10%. An applicant that has turned down an acceptance to reapply is going to be high risk for dropping out.

 

[TheWolfOfMainStreet]

You remind me of one guy I used to know at my last school who was even into hunting too. (just going by your profile pic). He fed me the same lines you do back when I was planning to withdraw...........anyway.... if you were to ever come to the realization that MD=/=DO on your own, you would see that what I have done is find a way to obtain a degree that is far more valuable without having to go through the portion of the program that is known to see high amounts of nonsuccess. I know you are as thick as a brick, but I believe this was a smart move, as does every single doctor I know (parents, grandfather, uncles, sister, personal physicians, the list goes on).

Seriously starting to question if SGU is a cult or something based on Caribbean McCaribbeanFace's reactions to criticism of his insanity.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Wait...there's actually someone on here advocating for transferring from a US medical school offshore for clinical rotations???

That's a new one. I thought I'd seen everything, SDN.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Im pretty sure I scored higher on the boards than you ever will (both COMLEX and USLME

Challenge accepted. I have every intention of destroying both exams.

and have more connections to get me into my specialty of interest.

This is why your advice is so terrible. Connections are the ONLY way that you are going to get a favorable outcome. Everyone you suggest this both to most likely has none. The truth that you fail to admit is that if you did not leave the DO school, and if you truly did as well on boards as you claim, you would end up in the same residency and in the same specialty.

The only reason you would have to go lurk around on this site with such a condescending, bombastic attitude would be that you are a severely unstable person yourself.

I don't lurk, I post frequently and do so to help others get correct information and advice. I have an extreme dislike for people who give terrible advice and no I'm not PC when I tell them so. Your decision was terrible, and you suggesting it to others is terrible.

He's dead for DO if he turns down an acceptance and reapplies

No he is not, this is a pre-med myth.

 

[Robin-jay]

SMP is a waste of your time. And, don't go to a DO program now. If you do so anyway, just do the first two years and then transfer to an offshore school to begin clinical rotations. You will avoid much of the things people on here like to whine about (attrition rate, failing STEP etc) and still obtain the coveted MD title.

I can't tell if you are just trolling or not.

Whatever the O.P. does, he should do it in the U.S.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

Challenge accepted. I have every intention of destroying both exams.



This is why your advice is so terrible. Connections are the ONLY way that you are going to get a favorable outcome. Everyone you suggest this both to most likely has none. The truth that you fail to admit is that if you did not leave the DO school, and if you truly did as well on boards as you claim, you would end up in the same residency and in the same specialty.



I don't lurk, I post frequently and do so to help others get correct information and advice. I have an extreme dislike for people who give terrible advice and no I'm not PC when I tell them so. Your decision was terrible, and you suggesting it to others is terrible.


No he is not, this is a pre-med myth.

Not bad. I was hoping this would be the last quote for a while between us, but you missed one thing in the part I outlined. All that stuff before it is true, however, you will be called an MD instead of a DO if you do what I suggest. This is something you need to carry with you for the rest of your life and it should not be undermined.

 

[bears1992]

Wait...there's actually someone on here advocating for transferring from a US medical school offshore for clinical rotations???

That's a new one. I thought I'd seen everything, SDN.

Yeah, that made no sense lol.

 

[bears1992]

Not bad. I was hoping this would be the last quote for a while between us, but you missed one thing in the part I outlined. All that stuff before it is true, however, you will be called an MD instead of a DO if you do what I suggest. This is something you need to carry with you for the rest of your life and it should not be undermined.

Who cares. I'm not going to spend an extra 100k just so I can change two letters on my lab coat.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Not bad. I was hoping this would be the last quote for a while between us, but you missed one thing in the part I outlined. All that stuff before it is true, however, you will be called an MD instead of a DO if you do what I suggest. This is something you need to carry with you for the rest of your life and it should not be undermined.

If you were gunning for MD, you should've busted your butt to get in before going the DO route. Switching to a Carrib program wasn't the answer here.

But hey, at least you'll be a "real doctor" with an MD, right?

 

[bears1992]

Challenge accepted. I have every intention of destroying both exams.



This is why your advice is so terrible. Connections are the ONLY way that you are going to get a favorable outcome. Everyone you suggest this both to most likely has none. The truth that you fail to admit is that if you did not leave the DO school, and if you truly did as well on boards as you claim, you would end up in the same residency and in the same specialty.



I don't lurk, I post frequently and do so to help others get correct information and advice. I have an extreme dislike for people who give terrible advice and no I'm not PC when I tell them so. Your decision was terrible, and you suggesting it to others is terrible.


No he is not, this is a pre-med myth.

Both Goro and Gyngyn have said their school would reject any reapplicant that has turned down an acceptance to reapply. Where are you getting the idea that other schools don't follow this policy as well?

 

[Robin-jay]

I don't understand how you can't be black flagged. I've heard several personal stories of people who rejected an acceptance and were never able to get accepted again. I heard one individual who attended briefly before leaving, and he spent several years trying to get another acceptance. Only after begging to a dean of a university after 5 years of rejections after that time, was he allowed to gain entrance again.

Lessons here:

1.) DON'T apply to medical schools you aren't willing to attend.

2.) Be prepared to NEVER attend medical school if you do this.

Although not impossible, I definitely wouldn't risk it.

 

[Thor123422]

A 518 is 97th%ile. Approximately a 36 to us 'old score' folks. A good score, but just that... one data point. I would argue that the GPA says much more (and will hurt much more than the MCAT will help). Having been an applicant with similarly discrepant number I understand where the OP is coming from. I already took 3 years off between med school and undergrad. That was enough. Would I have spent further time with a SMP or with more coursework? Certainly not. Should the OP risk time and money on a SMP and another round of MD applications? That's for them to decide their risk tolerance.

Being four years into a DO program now, my advice would not be any different than it was four years ago... Do the best you can and reach high... but cast a broad net and don't apply anywhere you wouldn't go. Knowing what's attainable is important. Having one data point that is "Harvard level" does not mean one is competitive for HMS. Having applied broadly, only @shadow97 will really know what kind of response their application had and what's potentially realistic for the future.

I had a 34 with a 3.25 my first time around. Didn't get a single MD interview. MD cares A Loooooot about GPA. They really love their high average.

 

[Robin-jay]

I had a 34 with a 3.25 my first time around. Didn't get a single MD interview. MD cares A Loooooot about GPA. They really love their high average.

Did you apply with a bachelors or a masters?

 

[GypsyHummus]

Agree on the first point, but on the second, there is something to be said about having an MD degree over a DO.

You can deff feel a stigma once you are in the system, at least at the educational/residency level, DOs are treated differently when it comes time to apply for things, rotating places, and even educational background has come up on numerous occasions when I have talked with just the few Directors of residency programs in a casual setting. There are fields that have "soft doors" closed to us like Nuerosurgery, ENT (especially the subspecilties), to some extent Optho, Derm to a large extent and maybe urology. Are there people in these fields that are DOs? Sure, but there is also a person in your hometown that has won the lottery, odds are stacked against you.

That being said, a majority of those top fields are limited in the MD field as well, you gotta be a superstar. MD makes it attainable though and not a pipe dream.

If it were me with those stats, I'd do the SMP with that MCAT. Assuming the OP doesn't completely whiff and gets lower than a 3.5, he sets himself up really well for MD or DO applications next year.

Your decision was terrible, and you really need to stop telling people to do the same. Your coveted "MD" won't bring you what you think it will.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Uhhhhhh. No.

SMP is a waste of your time. And, don't go to a DO program now. If you do so anyway, just do the first two years and then transfer to an offshore school to begin clinical rotations. You will avoid much of the things people on here like to whine about (attrition rate, failing STEP etc) and still obtain the coveted MD title.

 

[getfat]

1.) DON'T apply to medical schools you aren't willing to attend.

This is one piece of advice that always irked me. I get that for a lot of people specifically on this site "ANY school is better than no School" but on a couple interviews I went on, I knew instantly "THIS IS NOT THE SCHOOL FOR ME". I applied because on paper the school seemed great but you don't know the whole picture until you talk to students and visit the campus. At some schools, I could understand turning down an acceptance and go for another round in next years application cycle.

The pseudo blacklist everyone talks about is ridiculous. Do you have a lower chance of going to medical school if you reject an acceptance? OF COURSE but its not a death sentence.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Not bad. I was hoping this would be the last quote for a while between us, but you missed one thing in the part I outlined. All that stuff before it is true, however, you will be called an MD instead of a DO if you do what I suggest. This is something you need to carry with you for the rest of your life and it should not be undermined.

You failed to tell me how much more "valuable" that degree is. When it comes to practice no one cares. If you seriously think people will look at you better than a DO after all of this then you are downright dilusional.

Both Goro and Gyngyn have said their school would reject any reapplicant that has turned down an acceptance to reapply. Where are you getting the idea that other schools don't follow this policy as well?

DO schools are not the same as MD schools. Goro's school might but there are a lot of DO schools that will not. I used to think this way too, but I have met FAR too many anecdotes do believe it anymore. You can say whatever you want, but I have talked with people involved with admissions and I would bet an extremely large sum of money that someone who turns down a DO acceptance, does an SMP and does well (3.6+), with a 518, would get 10 interviews out of 15 applications the time. There is no "blacklist". Not every school even asks if you have been accepted, they often ask if you matriculated.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Agree on the first point, but on the second, there is something to be said about having an MD degree over a DO.

You can deff feel a stigma once you are in the system, at least at the educational/residency level, DOs are treated differently when it comes time to apply for things, rotating places, and even educational background has come up on numerous occasions when I have talked with just the few Directors of residency programs in a casual setting. There are fields that have "soft doors" closed to us like Nuerosurgery, ENT (especially the subspecilties), to some extent Optho, Derm to a large extent and maybe urology. Are there people in these fields that are DOs? Sure, but there is also a person in your hometown that has won the lottery, odds are stacked against you.

Yes but not one from a Caribbean school. The same stigma exists when you apply to residencies, often even worse. In addition, the farther I get into this process the more I develop the opinion that the reason so few DOs match these specialties is largely because only a few are even competitive for them. Yes there is a bias, but DO schools have terrible advisement and many DO students just have no idea what it means to be competitive for ortho (or something like that). The truth is that the people who put together an ortho worthy app generally actually match ortho.

And once you get past residency the difference in degrees matters very little. It can hurt in academics, but where you did residency is more important there.

 

[deleted831695]

Vast majority of the time, it doesn't matter what the letters are behind your name. You can take what you have, and acknowledge it's a newer school that's not a known commodity and might have growing pains, or take the risk in potentially not doing well in the SMP, which would really hurt your chances a few years from now.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Did people advocate going carribean for OP?

Never Ever Ever Never go Carribean. Go to Pharmacy, PA, nursing, physical therapy, personal fitness trainer,etc. school before you go Carribean.

Yes but not one from a Caribbean school. The same stigma exists when you apply to residencies, often even worse. In addition, the farther I get into this process the more I develop the opinion that the reason so few DOs match these specialties is largely because only a few are even competitive for them. Yes there is a bias, but DO schools have terrible advisement and many DO students just have no idea what it means to be competitive for ortho (or something like that). The truth is that the people who put together an ortho worthy app generally actually match ortho.

And once you get past residency the difference in degrees matters very little. It can hurt in academics, but where you did residency is more important there.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Did people advocate going carribean for OP?

Never Ever Ever Never go Carribean. Go to Pharmacy, PA, nursing, physical therapy, personal fitness trainer,etc. school before you go Carribean.

The poster who was arguing that his MD degree was worth more than a DO degree did his pre-clinical years at a DO school and then transferred to the Carrib for the clinical years. I think most of us who are rational and not OMM-crazy would agree that a US MD school trumps a US DO school. The key word there is American.

 

[bears1992]

The poster who was arguing that his MD degree was worth more than a DO degree did his pre-clinical years at a DO school and then transferred to the Carrib for the clinical years. I think most of us who are rational and not OMM-crazy would agree that a US MD school trumps a US DO school. The key word there is American.

I do feel myself cutting that guy a bit of slack, in his original post asking about transferring from DO to carribean, he mentioned that his father who is an MD, was constantly criticizing he/she for going DO. Who knows, I might have gone carribean in leiu of DO if my dad was constantly berating me and feeding me the notion that DOs are looked down upon.

 

[Thor123422]

Did you apply with a bachelors or a masters?

Bachelors, but with all of my Masters classes completed and a 3.8 graduate GPA.

 

[Robin-jay]

Bachelors, but with all of my Masters classes completed and a 3.8 graduate GPA.

What was your masters in? how broadly did you apply? I feel like some M.D. would have picked you up with those stats.

Not a lot of applicants have a 3.8 GPA with a masters.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Not a lot of applicants have a 3.8 GPA with a masters.

They had a 3.25 and a 3.8 in the masters. MD schools do not count the masters in the GPA, and if it wasn't an SMP then it most likely wasn't a huge boost to their app.

 

[harkas]

Be sure to keep in mind that once you decline that DO acceptance, you will be pretty much blacklisted at all other DO schools in the future.

Why did you apply to the school if you knew you didn't want to go there? Now you're putting yourself in the bad spot of rejecting an acceptance to medical school, which never looks good.

I know someone who applied and got into KCOM, realized they didn't want to go to MO so she declined, hung out for a year, reapplied and got into another DO school. Average-above average stats. I thought she was crazy and would never get in again, but she did. It likely varies from school to school, adcom to adcom. Most things are not so black and white.

 

[Thor123422]

What was your masters in? how broadly did you apply? I feel like some M.D. would have picked you up with those stats.

Not a lot of applicants have a 3.8 GPA with a masters.

Undergrad GPA was 3.2 but my Master's GPA was 3.8.

 

[Robin-jay]

Undergrad GPA was 3.2 but my Master's GPA was 3.8.

I had an MD admissions member tell me in person that applicants with low undergraduate degrees just needed any science-based masters from an accredited university, and a good MCAT, and that it would typically be enough to resolve mediocre performances. It was a formal meeting, so I'm inclined to believe he wasn't misleading me. This was a fairly high tier of a school too.

 

[Robin-jay]

I know someone who applied and got into KCOM, realized they didn't want to go to MO so she declined, hung out for a year, reapplied and got into another DO school. Average-above average stats. I thought she was crazy and would never get in again, but she did. It likely varies from school to school, adcom to adcom. Most things are not so black and white.

This is good to know. However, it does beg the question why so any people can't back into medical when they do this. I've seen people with acceptances, just never get accepted every again when they reject a school, even with better stats the following years.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I had an MD admissions member tell me in person that applicants with low undergraduate degrees just needed any science-based masters from an accredited university, and a good MCAT, and that it would typically be enough to resolve mediocre performances. It was a formal meeting, so I'm inclined to believe he wasn't misleading me. This was a fairly high tier of a school too.

For that specific member it probably works. Unfortunately for the majority of admissions a masters does not overcome a poor undergrad unless it is a SMP where you are taking the same classes as the medical students. The issue is that even in science based masters they are not necessarily rigorous with full time being only 6 credits. People are supposed to do well in masters programs. This is a generalized statement as obviously specific adcom members will have their own opinion and certain masters programs will probably carry weight at the med schools that are super familiar with it, but overall masters degrees do not help that much if your uGPA is bad

 

[Solodyn]

Take the DO school.

 

[Robin-jay]

For that specific member it probably works. Unfortunately for the majority of admissions a masters does not overcome a poor undergrad unless it is a SMP where you are taking the same classes as the medical students. The issue is that even in science based masters they are not necessarily rigorous with full time being only 6 credits. People are supposed to do well in masters programs. This is a generalized statement as obviously specific adcom members will have their own opinion and certain masters programs will probably carry weight at the med schools that are super familiar with it, but overall masters degrees do not help that much if your uGPA is bad

The adcom I talked to seemed extraordinarily impressed with the notion of a chemical chemistry masters. I suppose it just depends on which adcom looks over your app.

People aren't suppose to do well in all masters programs. I have a professor explicitly tell my class that "no one is going to get an A". That's much more difficult than any bachelors I know! Now, masters degrees in SMPs and typical biological sciences are suppose to be easy to raise the GPA.

Also, what could you better at proving you improved in organic chemistry than to nail an organic chemistry 600 course, etc.?

Lets say someone gets a B in orgo 1, and gets an A in advanced orgo. 600. adcoms love upward trends where you've proved to master to course. Thats why adcoms sometimes prefer advancing coursework instead of just retakes, which is what a lot of masters programs offer.

But I digress, D.O. is a better option for master degree students in general.

 

[Thor123422]

The adcom I talked to seemed extraordinarily impressed with the notion of a chemical chemistry masters. I suppose it just depends on which adcom looks over your app.

People aren't suppose to do well in all masters programs. I have a professor explicitly tell my class that "no one is going to get an A". That's much more difficult than any bachelors I know! Now, masters degrees in SMPs and typical biological sciences are suppose to be easy to raise the GPA.


But I digress, D.O. is a better option for master degree students in general.

Mine was computational chemistry.

 

[Robin-jay]

Mine was computational chemistry.

I did some computational chemistry research before (I didn't earn a masters in this specific subject, I earned it in more hands-on lab work). I've seen a phD thesis defense on it from a colleague of mine too. I thought it was interesting for sure.