DO accreditation--it is really getting bizarre.

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BestDoctorEver said:
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/accreditation/predoctoral accreditation/Documents/new-and-developing-colleges-of-osteopathic-medicine-and-campuses.pdf

Fort South Regional HealthCare Foundation? What the heck is this? This is getting weird...
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"Applicant status is the initial step in seeking accreditation. This status is offered without rights
or privileges of accreditation, and does not establish or imply recognition by the COCA.
Applicant status is granted upon the formal request for evaluation submitted by the chief
executive officer of the applicant entity."

As long as the table under "Pre-accreditation Status" is empty, I'm happy.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
"Applicant status is the initial step in seeking accreditation. This status is offered without rights
or privileges of accreditation, and does not establish or imply recognition by the COCA.
Applicant status is granted upon the formal request for evaluation submitted by the chief
executive officer of the applicant entity."

As long as the table under "Pre-accreditation Status" is empty, I'm happy.
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If the application is only a $100-200, maybe I should submit one just to make a mockery out of the whole system....
 
Doing a web search on a lot of these institutions yields nothing except for the University of the Incarnate Word. Looks as if it had already selected a founding dean.
 
medickdb said:
Doing a web search on a lot of these institutions yields nothing except for the University of the Incarnate Word. Looks as if it had already selected a founding dean.
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LarkinCOM is already in the construction phase and they have their own hospital...
 
serenade said:
Serenade's Hole in the Ground University of Naturopathic Advanced Nursing Education del Escheula Osteopathica for the make betterment of Kazakhstan
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Lol... Why these organizations don't apply for MD accreditation? Does it have to be DO?
 
serenade said:
I honestly think COCA is trying to make a joke of osteopathic medicine.
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I know you said if COCA = LCME, no school would open a DO school, but maybe increase the standards to at least almost ACGME? Because some of those schools made me cringe.
 
Last edited:
My understanding of ACGME accreditation is that MD schools are required to have a significant research component in place, not the lip service to" scholarly activity" that COCA requires.


BestDoctorEver said:
Lol... Why these organizations don't apply for MD accreditation? Does it have to be DO?
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BestDoctorEver said:
Lol... Why these organizations don't apply for MD accreditation? Does it have to be DO?
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Because the LCME actually is interested in protecting their student / constituents. You don't have any NYCOMs with enormous attrition, no LECOMs that are purely tuition driven, nor any LUCOMs that really don't have any reason for having a medical school.
 
darklabel said:
I know you said if COCA = ACGME, no school would open a DO school, but maybe increase the standards to at least almost ACGME? Because some of those schools made me cringe.
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Yeah, like what the heck kind of a name for a school is Center for Allied Health Nursing Education? It sounds like one of those places you'd find in those cheesy commercials for LPN or medical assistant training with a beautician and barber school in next classroom.
 
Goro said:
My understanding of ACGME accreditation is that MD schools are required to have a significant research component in place, not the lip service to" scholarly activity" that COCA requires.
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Or be missions driven. I'm pretty sure NYMC and The Commonwealth aren't at all research driven or heavy.
 
serenade said:
Because the LCME actually is interested in protecting their student / constituents. You don't have any NYCOMs with enormous attrition, no LECOMs that are purely tuition driven, nor any LUCOMs that really don't have any reason for having a medical school.
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LECOMs tuition driven? LECOM is the cheapest private DO school in term of tuition...
 
BestDoctorEver said:
LECOMs tuition driven? LECOM is the cheapest private DO school in term of tuition...
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And it has like 4 pathways just in Erie. I'm pretty sure they have over 350 students in their first year class. And they don't pay for anything.
 
serenade said:
And it has like 4 pathways just in Erie. I'm pretty sure they have over 350 students in their first year class. And they don't pay for anything.
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It is only 9 million bucks per year with a 27k/year tuition... I did not know they took all these students
 
serenade said:
Serenade's Hole in the Ground University of Naturopathic Advanced Nursing Education del Escheula Osteopathica for the make betterment of Kazakhstan
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Nation's first online DO program! Rotations are all at weekend free clinics, Naturopathic "doctors" offices, and homeless shelters.
 
within the decade, the DO degree will be done. i foresee another California-DO-to-MD scenario in the near future.

i like being a DO, and the AOA has actually been beneficial in my neck of the woods--believe it or not. however, the AOA, COCA, and the DO degree are simply unsustainable.

it is bittersweet. i hate seeing the degree lose its value...but it is painfully obvious that this is the beginning of the end.
 
SurgeDO said:
within the decade, the DO degree will be done. i foresee another California-DO-to-MD scenario in the near future.

i like being a DO, and the AOA has actually been beneficial in my neck of the woods--believe it or not. however, the AOA, COCA, and the DO degree are simply unsustainable.

it is bittersweet. i hate seeing the degree lose its value...but it is painfully obvious that this is the beginning of the end.
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And what will that mean for the students?
 
SurgeDO said:
who knows. i like to make outlandish speculations every so often.
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it would be interesting if the ACGME barred out all DOs from ACGME residencies. this is definitely foreseeable given the rapidly encroaching residency crunch.

the AOA, not having enough residencies to supply even HALF of its graduates, would have no choice but to give in to the demands of the ACGME.

given the physician shortage, perhaps the LCME will then step in and accredit the reasonable DO schools?

meh, nothing wrong with a healthy dose of "what-ifs" every so often.

back to studying.
 
SurgeDO said:
it would be interesting if the ACGME barred out all DOs from ACGME residencies. this is definitely foreseeable given the rapidly encroaching residency crunch.

the AOA, not having enough residencies to supply even HALF of its graduates, would have no choice but to give in to the demands of the ACGME.

given the physician shortage, perhaps the LCME will then step in and accredit the reasonable DO schools?

meh, nothing wrong with a healthy dose of "what-ifs" every so often.

back to studying.
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I wouldn't mind if that happened. Also, I lol'd that you responded to yourself about speculations.
 
SurgeDO said:
within the decade, the DO degree will be done. i foresee another California-DO-to-MD scenario in the near future.

i like being a DO, and the AOA has actually been beneficial in my neck of the woods--believe it or not. however, the AOA, COCA, and the DO degree are simply unsustainable.

it is bittersweet. i hate seeing the degree lose its value...but it is painfully obvious that this is the beginning of the end.
Click to expand...

There's no doubt in my mind that the AOA and COCA will soon be on the chopping block.
My belief is that the DO degree may be sustained as a supplementary degree but will be phased out for MD simply by virtue of the DO student population becoming more pre-md and less interested in AT Still.
 
All this doom and gloom has me worried. Should I not even be considering DO schools at this point? @Goro ?
 
yanks26dmb said:
All this doom and gloom has me worried. Should I not even be considering DO schools at this point? @Goro ?
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If your stats are within M.D. range (3.5 c/sGPA, 30+ MCAT), you should definitely think about it.
 
yanks26dmb said:
All this doom and gloom has me worried. Should I not even be considering DO schools at this point? @Goro ?
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no doom and gloom over here. i sincerely love my school and would choose this route again. i am getting a phenomenal education and am confident that i will land a solid residency.

i do not necessarily see the potential collapse of the AOA/COCA as being a bad thing.
 
yanks26dmb said:
All this doom and gloom has me worried. Should I not even be considering DO schools at this point? @Goro ?
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Wait, are you serious? They aren't getting rid of the D.O. degree any time soon, probably never. Once you are rewarded a degree it can't be stripped away from you. People have been saying these kinds of things about the osteopathic degree for decades. They aren't going to just close 30+ medical schools.
 
SurgeDO said:
no doom and gloom over here. i sincerely love my school and would choose this route again. i am getting a phenomenal education and am confident that i will land a solid residency.

i do not necessarily see the potential collapse of the AOA/COCA as being a bad thing.
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I know a lot of my classmates were unhappy that the merger fell through... not a good perspective on the AOA right now.
 
medickdb said:
Yeah, like what the heck kind of a name for a school is Center for Allied Health Nursing Education? It sounds like one of those places you'd find in those cheesy commercials for LPN or medical assistant training with a beautician and barber school in next classroom.
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Wonder when UTI is getting a DO school
 
I like how quickly this escalated into chaos. The reason some of the more recent schools are choosing to open as D.O. Granting institutions is the total amount of equity that needs to be put forth. A DO school needs, from what I've heard, in the ball park of $40M to open and function. This is in part due to the fact that COCA does not mandate these schools to have an affiliated hospital built BY the school itself. In this sense, think of the "one building" DO schools.
Now, an MD granting institution is mandated to have the equity available upon accreditation for the school to be built AND the teaching hospital. This ballpark figure is more in the $100+ M region.
Not many schools can afford to put up the money necessary to become an MD granting institution, but would still like to have a medial school. As long as the newer schools are providing outreach support in under served/rural locations, I don't see an gloom and doom in the near future.

Also, the AOA residency spots the past few years have been IN SURPLUS, not shortage. One of the reasons that the AOA has leverage in bargaining is that they hold residency spots that the ACGME (not to mention CarribMD schools) would like to place overflow students in.
 
I think its also bizarre that so many students will be willing to apply to these new schools..

I know people say that there are no ranking among DO schools but with all these new schools opening I definitely think that some of the more established schools will be considered top tiered schools
 
I think eventually we probably will start officially ranking DO schools. But that's just me
 
bionerd89 said:
I think its also bizarre that so many students will be willing to apply to these new schools..

I know people say that there are no ranking among DO schools but with all these new schools opening I definitely think that some of the more established schools will be considered top tiered schools
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Newer school means lower average class stats--> increased chance at acceptance. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but for the most part people with above average to high stats stay away from the newer schools. I can understand maybe going to a new school if it is near your family or in your home state, but for the most part people apply to these newer schools because they think they are easier to get in to. Whether or not that is true, im not sure. Newer schools typically have a large applicant pool because everyone thinks they are easy to get in to. Kind of a catch 22.

I'm pretty mad about the merger falling through. We are family friends with a vice president of one of the DO schools and he went to the conference in Chicago to advocate for the merger. He pretty much hates the AOA and thinks they are clueless. I wish the AOA would go away. Maybe it will, but as far as the D.O. degree, it isn't going anywhere. Too many new osteopathic schools and graduates. Not to mention decade long battles fighting for degree equality. Best case scenario all medical student take the USMLE and Osteopathic students that wish to practice OMM can choose to take the Comlex

Hopefully medical degrees will be somewhat like dental degrees. Nobody cares whether their dentist is a DMD or DDS. Most people don't even know there are two degrees. I think that is something we can all hope for
 
Lost Vagus said:
Newer school means lower average class stats--> increased chance at acceptance. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but for the most part people with above average to high stats stay away from the newer schools. I can understand maybe going to a new school if it is near your family or in your home state, but for the most part people apply to these newer schools because they think they are easier to get in to. Whether or not that is true, im not sure. Newer schools typically have a large applicant pool because everyone thinks they are easy to get in to. Kind of a catch 22.

I'm pretty mad about the merger falling through. We are family friends with a vice president of one of the DO schools and he went to the conference in Chicago to advocate for the merger. He pretty much hates the AOA and thinks they are clueless. I wish the AOA would go away. Maybe it will, but as far as the D.O. degree, it isn't going anywhere. Too many new osteopathic schools and graduates. Not to mention decade long battles fighting for degree equality. Best case scenario all medical student take the USMLE and Osteopathic students that wish to practice OMM can choose to take the Comlex

Hopefully medical degrees will be somewhat like dental degrees. Nobody cares whether their dentist is a DMD or DDS. Most people don't even know there are two degrees. I think that is something we can all hope for
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According to these new schools, their mission is to help lower the physician shortage in their area so if their students actually practice in the area after graduating then I don't think these new schools are that bad of an idea.

The only thing that concerns about these new schools are whether or not they will be able to train competent physicians. For the sake of our degree, I hope that every osteopathic student will work hard to excel and be the best physician they can despite the school they attend.
 
Wow! A lot of hyperventilating on this thread! Reminds me of the pre-allo forum of a few years ago.

Relax kids, the osteopathic profession isn't going anywhere. Remember they survived the MD's best attempts to throttle it; now they're co-equals (except maybe in the minds of some naive pre-meds on other message boards.)

You can't open a DO program unless you can ensure adequate rotation slots, but for residencies, theoretically students can be thrown to the winds. That sounds scary, BUT, there are still more residency slots than there are DO AND MD grads. Imagine the lawsuits that will ensue when grads can't find jobs (like law school grads are faced with now. Some people are now making noise about either closing some law schools, or reducing class sizes. BUT, that doesn't apply to the medical profession, as there is still a need (and growing) for doctors, but there's a vast oversupply of lawyers.

The numbers of medical grads will be increasing as new DO and MD programs come on line, but I see the FMGs being the ones squeezed out.

Both AOA and ACGME have their best interests in merging residency programs, not keeping them separate. That merger will happen. Just give it time.

And both DO and MD schools have an interest in keeping out grads whom both rejected.

So quit fussing.



yanks26dmb said:
All this doom and gloom has me worried. Should I not even be considering DO schools at this point? @Goro ?
Click to expand...
 
In all honesty, I can actually see online DO degrees coming forth. If what Goro says is correct, as long as an institution like Devry or vocational schools can pay to have rotations at any random rural hospitals in a 50-100 mile radius, they can offer the first two years of preclinical education ONLINE, and then ship you off to rotations at random hospitals. You wouldn't know your fellow DO students for your first two years.
 
The sky is definitely falling. Definitely.
 
The COCA should put in place two of the biggest measures that currently put the LCME head and shoulders above them: A substantially increased research requirement, and a maximum on the percent of funds that are allowed to be derived from medical student tuition.
 
CSqueed said:
In all honesty, I can actually see online DO degrees coming forth. If what Goro says is correct, as long as an institution like Devry or vocational schools can pay to have rotations at any random rural hospitals in a 50-100 mile radius, they can offer the first two years of preclinical education ONLINE, and then ship you off to rotations at random hospitals. You wouldn't know your fellow DO students for your first two years.
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Man that would be terrible. How would you gather people for SPs, labs, or other group activities?
 
Goro said:
Wow! A lot of hyperventilating on this thread! Reminds me of the pre-allo forum of a few years ago.

Relax kids, the osteopathic profession isn't going anywhere. Remember they survived the MD's best attempts to throttle it; now they're co-equals (except maybe in the minds of some naive pre-meds on other message boards.)

You can't open a DO program unless you can ensure adequate rotation slots, but for residencies, theoretically students can be thrown to the winds. That sounds scary, BUT, there are still more residency slots than there are DO AND MD grads. Imagine the lawsuits that will ensue when grads can't find jobs (like law school grads are faced with now. Some people are now making noise about either closing some law schools, or reducing class sizes. BUT, that doesn't apply to the medical profession, as there is still a need (and growing) for doctors, but there's a vast oversupply of lawyers.

The numbers of medical grads will be increasing as new DO and MD programs come on line, but I see the FMGs being the ones squeezed out.

Both AOA and ACGME have their best interests in merging residency programs, not keeping them separate. That merger will happen. Just give it time.

And both DO and MD schools have an interest in keeping out grads whom both rejected.

So quit fussing.
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Now that the COCA has requirements for 98% residency placement for graduates and the OPTI program requirements, it is possible that once students stop placing, schools will either be forced to open new residencies or have their number of seats cut. I'm curious to see how it plays out in the coming years.

Really I wish we could just make all the manual manipulation (some of which works) and cranial (voodoo) optional or an added qualification and merge the MD and DO professions so that there was one high educational standard that all schools had to meet, but hey, god forbid we admit that we aren't all that different from the MD crowd and stop basing our entire osteopathic education on a system of medicine some guy came up with over a hundred years ago.
 
coolingglasses said:
Man that would be terrible. How would you gather people for SPs, labs, or other group activities?
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Anatomy labs could be deemed "unnecessary" in the DO education. The only issue may be clinical practice, but they could easily just do online instruction then have you meet somewhere in a simulation center to get tested and graded on. This could also apply to OMM techniques.

You would essentially just watch a video being performed, have a center somewhere to practice and be tested at.
 
yanks26dmb said:
All this doom and gloom has me worried. Should I not even be considering DO schools at this point? @Goro ?
Click to expand...

Despite it all, I would be very surprised if any DO schools that are open today would be invalidated. For what it is worth chances are you're safe and you're especially safe as long as you pursue an ACGME residency.
 
Let's say they do make it online. Is it really worse than allowing lucom to open a med school?
 
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