DO accreditation--it is really getting bizarre.

[CSqueed]

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De

Let's say they do make it online. Is it really worse than allowing lucom to open a med school?

They would just allow more people to get degrees and would bottleneck the DO degree.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

De



They would just allow more people to get degrees and would bottleneck the DO degree.

I wasn't entirely serious, but keeping it real, until it becomes an economic problem to coca or the aoa, nothing will change. We'll see more schools and no merger.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Let's say they do make it online. Is it really worse than allowing lucom to open a med school?

Probably

I wasn't entirely serious, but keeping it real, until it becomes an economic problem to coca or the aoa, nothing will change. We'll see more schools and no merger.

Personally my belief is that in the situation that this becomes an issue the government or AMA will step in and attempt to broker a deal, potentially in the worst case with individual schools. I mean my personal belief is that the best option is for all the DO schools and AOA residencies is to merge and be given 5-10 years to buff themselves up. I'm sure most schools will likely either be happily aided by other schools ( ex. MUCOM would be supported by UI or CCOM would be able to receive sponsorship or joint research with RFU or UIC), by the State ( VCOM, CUSOM, ACOM would be supported by primary care and rural medicine provisions and money), or by private benefactors.

Obviously this idea is... idealistic to the point of being silly and unreasonable, but I think it could happen in some way or form.

 

[Goro]

I think the schools will fight tooth and nail to prevent the loss of seats. they will have to pony up $ to help establish residencies. the MD schools have similar headaches. I was once told that Dartmouth bought out some slots from right under the nose of UCSF on the west coast.

My own school is working with a local hospital to establish a residency program, so hopefully my grads won't have to worry so much. Time will tell.

Now that the COCA has requirements for 98% residency placement for graduates and the OPTI program requirements, it is possible that once students stop placing, schools will either be forced to open new residencies or have their number of seats cut. I'm curious to see how it plays out in the coming years.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Let's say they do make it online. Is it really worse than allowing lucom to open a med school?

Of course it will not be worse... Seriously!

 

[user3]

The COCA should put in place two of the biggest measures that currently put the LCME head and shoulders above them: A substantially increased research requirement, and a maximum on the percent of funds that are allowed to be derived from medical student tuition.

omg I agree 100%

 

[coolingglasses]

Probably


Personally my belief is that in the situation that this becomes an issue the government or AMA will step in and attempt to broker a deal, potentially in the worst case with individual schools. I mean my personal belief is that the best option is for all the DO schools and AOA residencies is to merge and be given 5-10 years to buff themselves up. I'm sure most schools will likely either be happily aided by other schools ( ex. MUCOM would be supported by UI or CCOM would be able to receive sponsorship or joint research with RFU or UIC), by the State ( VCOM, CUSOM, ACOM would be supported by primary care and rural medicine provisions and money), or by private benefactors.

Obviously this idea is... idealistic to the point of being silly and unreasonable, but I think it could happen in some way or form.

I like the idea of that. Some of these schools may not have the resources to do quality research, but if they pool together, they conceivably could.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I like the idea of that. Some of these schools may not have the resources to do quality research, but if they pool together, they conceivably could.

They can really only benefit tbh.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I dont think things would be so cut and dry. Barring MD residencies abruptly closing their doors, I bet anything there will be a transition as the current leaders of the AOA retire and the new generation of leaders takes their place.

So combine this with what could happen with the schools themselves:
Schools such as VCOM and MUCOM could partner up with nearby allopathic institutions. This would help them both financially as well as their reputation and accreditation. (sort of what yall are going at in the last previous posts)
Schools that are sort of in the back woods in a lot of cases tend to be the only providers in the area (and in some cases in that whole state). So in that case you would absolutely get state support and backing at which point legislation would actually begin to occur faster.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Who put these AOA people in place? It is some kind of board of director that give them these positions?

 

[VisualEvolution]

In all honesty, I can actually see online DO degrees coming forth. If what Goro says is correct, as long as an institution like Devry or vocational schools can pay to have rotations at any random rural hospitals in a 50-100 mile radius, they can offer the first two years of preclinical education ONLINE, and then ship you off to rotations at random hospitals. You wouldn't know your fellow DO students for your first two years.

I think MSUCOM's two satellites are doing something similar already. Lecture is held at the main campus in Lansing and 100 students at the other two satellites have the option to stream real time (if they wanna ask questions via microphone) or stream later. The only time students will meet their fellow classmates is in OMM and the necessary labs, the rest is just online. With that said, MSUCOM is an amazing school that produces very competent physicians but I think their clinical years are largely responsible for that.

 

[yanks26dmb]

If your stats are within M.D. range (3.5 c/sGPA, 30+ MCAT), you should definitely think about it.

I really can't gauge my competitiveness for MD...

3.0 cum/3.7 science/3.9 post-bacc/3.6 last 120 hours/mcat (when I take it) should be low 30's based on early practices and guessing conservatively.

 

[user3]

I really can't gauge my competitiveness for MD...

3.0 cum/3.7 science/3.9 post-bacc/3.6 last 120 hours/mcat (when I take it) should be low 30's based on early practices and guessing conservatively.

if you score at least 30 and have all your ducks in a row (solid EC's, and early, broad application) you stand a favorable chance at MD.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I really can't gauge my competitiveness for MD...

3.0 cum/3.7 science/3.9 post-bacc/3.6 last 120 hours/mcat (when I take it) should be low 30's based on early practices and guessing conservatively.

if you score at least 30 and have all your ducks in a row (solid EC's, and early, broad application) you stand a favorable chance at MD.

I concur... 32+ MCAT and ignore DO altogether.

 

[CSqueed]

I concur... 32+ MCAT and ignore DO altogether.

I wouldn't be that hasty.

I would apply DO as a backup to the MD with a 3.6 and a 32. There are a good number of people with these stats not getting any love from MD schools. It's different than DO where if you have around the avg accepted for DO, it's almost guaranteed you'd get in if you apply to 20+ schools.

 

[yanks26dmb]

if you score at least 30 and have all your ducks in a row (solid EC's, and early, broad application) you stand a favorable chance at MD.

Forgot to mention, I have a pretty good EC (started an e-business in the health field) which I've been running for the past 4 years. I'm a non-trad btw too. Hopefully this puts me over the top. That 3.0 just scares me though..

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I wouldn't be that hasty.

I would apply DO as a backup to the MD with a 3.6 and a 32. There are a good number of people with these stats not getting any love from MD schools. It's different than DO where if you have around the avg accepted for DO, it's almost guaranteed you'd get in if you apply to 20+ schools.

Maybe use 3-4 DO schools as back up...

 

[user3]

I wouldn't be that hasty.

I would apply DO as a backup to the MD with a 3.6 and a 32. There are a good number of people with these stats not getting any love from MD schools. It's different than DO where if you have around the avg accepted for DO, it's almost guaranteed you'd get in if you apply to 20+ schools.

pretty much agree, but 20 schools would be excessive. I would stick with 5-10.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Who put these AOA people in place? It is some kind of board of director that give them these positions?

The AOA can be considered a hereditary theocratic organization. Furthermore the AOA itself decides who joins the AOA. Which essentially means that they not only can, but will choose the people who they believe will preserve the power of the AOA.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I really can't gauge my competitiveness for MD...

3.0 cum/3.7 science/3.9 post-bacc/3.6 last 120 hours/mcat (when I take it) should be low 30's based on early practices and guessing conservatively.

You'll still almost likely need a SMP if your cumulative gpa is still at a 3.0.

 

[CSqueed]

Maybe use 3-4 DO schools as back up...

well for THIS situation, yes only 3-4 would suffice (ie DMU, MSUCOM, WesternU, CCOM, etc)

 

[yanks26dmb]

You'll still almost likely need a SMP if your cumulative gpa is still at a 3.0.

Why do you think? I've taken upper division classes in post bacc and have received (almost) straight A's. Additionally, my pre-reqs are also straight A's. I had a horrendous first 40 credits, ~11-12 years ago. With my upward trend + sGPA + post-bacc I don't know what else I can really do...What more do you think an SMP will show at this point? Hope this didn't come across as defensive..genuinely wondering here..

 

[Dr. Zombie]

What would happen to the existing D.O. physicians if AOA collapses and ACGME takes over?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Why do you think? I've taken upper division classes in post bacc and have received (almost) straight A's. What more will an SMP show at this point?

That the system is broken and a game to admissions committees.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What would happen to the existing D.O. physicians if AOA collapses and ACGME takes over?

1) ACGME boarded and certified doctors would be barely affected. They're boarded and their state would legally allow them to continue to practice.
2) AOA boarded and certified doctors would be more affected but likely will retain practice rights through their state osteopathic boards switching them to MD boards.

Simply put it practicing physicians would be safe in just about any circumstance purely because millions of patients rely on them and suddenly losing their PCP or specialist would me a medical catastrophe.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

1) ACGME boarded and certified doctors would be barely affected. They're boarded and their state would legally allow them to continue to practice.
2) AOA boarded and certified doctors would be more affected but likely will retain practice rights through their state osteopathic boards switching them to MD boards.

Simply put it practicing physicians would be safe in just about any circumstance purely because millions of patients rely on them and suddenly losing their PCP or specialist would me a medical catastrophe.

So it won't be like the California incident where D.O.'s were converted to M.D.'s

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So it won't be like the California incident where D.O.'s were converted to M.D.'s

That was a state specific event. If this was a country-wide event it would be more work.

 

[guylewis]

That was a state specific event. If this was a country-wide event it would be more work.

Lets not forget what happened to those converts, known by the moniker "the little md's". The specialists were discriminated against and couldn't find jobs after the degree conversion. Very interesting story, well described in the book "The D.O.s: osteopathic medicine in America". That's why no other DO schools in other states wanted to play along with the AMA and convert their degrees after the California debacle. They saw how badly they f****d the "little md's". It was all a blatant ploy by the AMA to destroy osteopathic medicine which they considered cultists at the time. Lots of faith and trust was lost by the AMA because of that whole experience

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Lets not forget what happened to those converts, known by the moniker "the little md's". The specialists were discriminated against and couldn't find jobs after the degree conversion. Very interesting story, well described in the book "The D.O.s: osteopathic medicine in America". That's why no other DO schools in other states wanted to play along with the AMA and convert their degrees after the California debacle. They saw how badly they f****d the "little md's". It was all a blatant ploy by the AMA to destroy osteopathic medicine which they considered cultists at the time. Lots of faith and trust was lost by the AMA because of that whole experience

I think it could be done better today tbh

 

[user3]

I wouldn't be that hasty.

I would apply DO as a backup to the MD with a 3.6 and a 32. There are a good number of people with these stats not getting any love from MD schools. It's different than DO where if you have around the avg accepted for DO, it's almost guaranteed you'd get in if you apply to 20+ schools.

this is pretty much true even for a lot of people people significantly below this.

FWIW, 2 posters on here (Hvilledoc and Indianarn) applied with 3.7/22 and 3.3/22, respectively. Hvilledoc received 5 ii's and Indianarn received 4 ii's. So much for 22 being "horrible" in the eyes of schools (granted, their ii's did not come from schools like CCOM or DMU).

another poster (Victoriax) received EIGHT(!!!!) ii's with 3.1/2.9/27. So sgpa < 3.0 does not auto-screen you from most schools, contrary to popular belief.

 

[Mehd School]

this is pretty much true even for a lot of people people significantly below this.

FWIW, 2 posters on here (Hvilledoc and Indianarn) applied with 3.7/22 and 3.3/22, respectively. Hvilledoc received 5 ii's and Indianarn received 4 ii's. So much for 22 being "horrible" in the eyes of schools (granted, their ii's did not come from schools like CCOM or DMU).

another poster (Victoriax) received EIGHT(!!!!) ii's with 3.1/2.9/27. So sgpa < 3.0 does not auto-screen you from most schools, contrary to popular belief.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Give it up.

 

[user3]

The plural of anecdote is not data.

well these "anecdotes" are enough evidence (for me, at least) that it is still worthwhile to apply with average-ish GPA/ 22 MCAT. especially to schools like LMU and WVSOM.

 

[kp11]

[/quote]

Lets not forget what happened to those converts, known by the moniker "the little md's". The specialists were discriminated against and couldn't find jobs after the degree conversion. Very interesting story, well described in the book "The D.O.s: osteopathic medicine in America". That's why no other DO schools in other states wanted to play along with the AMA and convert their degrees after the California debacle. They saw how badly they f****d the "little md's". It was all a blatant ploy by the AMA to destroy osteopathic medicine which they considered cultists at the time. Lots of faith and trust was lost by the AMA because of that whole experience

+1

This is one of the major reasons the AOA still doesn't trust the ACGME, and got cold feet (maybe attempting a power play) in negotiations. They felt the ACGME was trying to strip away the heritage and identity of the degree once again like they did in California so many years ago.

 

[Mehd School]

Give it up.

Search his post history and tell me who needs to give what up.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Search his post history and tell me who needs to give what up.

I'm saying that I've been arguing this for years. It doesn't change his mind.

 

[Mehd School]

I'm saying that I've been arguing this for years. It doesn't change his mind.

Ah, I misunderstood.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Ah, I misunderstood.

Happens.
Now join me comrade as we form from the dying bones of the AOA the USSO! The Union of Soviet Socialist Osteopaths!

 

[CSqueed]

It is not difficult to gain ONE acceptance to a DO school. Get over it.

 

[guylewis]

It is not difficult to gain ONE acceptance to a DO school. Get over it.

it is if you suck

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Lets not forget what happened to those converts, known by the moniker "the little md's". The specialists were discriminated against and couldn't find jobs after the degree conversion. Very interesting story, well described in the book "The D.O.s: osteopathic medicine in America". That's why no other DO schools in other states wanted to play along with the AMA and convert their degrees after the California debacle. They saw how badly they f****d the "little md's". It was all a blatant ploy by the AMA to destroy osteopathic medicine which they considered cultists at the time. Lots of faith and trust was lost by the AMA because of that whole experience

I wonder if those converts still have MDs or were re-converted to DOs.

I also wonder why they couldn't find jobs? If the job rate was let's say 95% already as a DO, why would it decrease after converting to MD?

 

[guylewis]

I wonder if those converts still have MDs or were re-converted to DOs.

I also wonder why they couldn't find jobs? If the job rate was let's say 95% already as a DO, why would it decrease after converting to MD?

no one who was hiring respected their title. this mostly affected the specialists and basically the DOs who were not in primary care. the PCP weren't really hard hit by the discrimination. but no one wanted to hire a little md specialist. Now, to put the times into perspective, back in the 60s DOs did not get nearly the respect that they get nowadays from their MD counterparts. partly because their standards of education today are basically equal to MDs and back then they were barely coming out of the "stone age" with their medical programs and what they taught. If this conversion was offered to DOs today, I'm really not sure if there would be the same widespread discrimination (assuming all of the old MDs with their prejudices are dead or retired), however that debacle certainly did leave a long lasting fear, and rightfully so.

Again, I really encourage you all to read the book "The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in America", because it gives you a great history lesson of all of the battles DOs have gone through that leads us to where we stand today (which is day and night compared to where we were decades ago). so many battles, DOs vs MDs, DOs vs DOs, AOA vs DOs, AOA vs AMA, etc

 

[touchpause13]

It is not difficult to gain ONE acceptance to a DO school. Get over it.

it is if you suck

Stop it. People don't get in every year for a variety of reasons. There is no need to be a dick about it

 

[GUH]

ITT: Premed and Carib trolls plus a couple people trying to reason with them

If you guys are so confident we'll start seeing online DO schools, put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet any of you a thousand bucks that ten years from now, there will still be no AOA-accredited online DO programs.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

FWIW, I want to say given the track record of University of the Incarnate Word (UIW), it won't probably be a bad DO school. They have other successful professional programs (PT, PharmD, Optometry). Of course it would be better if these new DO schools are associated public universities. But I believe opening schools that are at least associated with undergrad institutions is a heck of a lot better than these 'stand alone' DO schools.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

FWIW, I want to say given the track record of University of the Incarnate Word (UIW), it won't probably be a bad DO school. They have other successful professional programs (PT, PharmD, Optometry). Of course it would be better if these new DO schools are associated public universities. But I believe opening schools that are at least associated with undergrad institutions is a heck of a lot better than these 'stand alone' DO schools.

I actually have no issue with UIW. After doing a search it seems actually like a relatively decent school and I think it actually has more right to exist than a lot of the other schools being proposed.

I mean honestly COCA just needs to end the accreditation of stand alone schools. If we just bring in UIWs from now on, it won't be too bad in my opinion.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I actually have no issue with UIW. After doing a search it seems actually like a relatively decent school and I think it actually has more right to exist than a lot of the other schools being proposed.

I mean honestly COCA just needs to end the accreditation of stand alone schools. If we just bring in UIWs from now on, it won't be too bad in my opinion.

I agree with you... I did some research and also spoke to a friend in San Antonio, he told me it's a good school... Based on my research, I would even say UIW has more right to exist than a lot of schools that are already open. It is a catholic institution and these institutions are usually good.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I agree with you... I did some research and also spoke to a friend in San Antonio, he told me it's a good school... Based on my research, I would even say UIW has more right to exist than a lot of schools that are already open. It is a catholic institution and these institutions are usually good.

Agreed. As opposed to Larkin or LUCOM it is far a better choice for a med school.

 

[Bill Brasky]

I agree with you... I did some research and also spoke to a friend in San Antonio, he told me it's a good school... Based on my research, I would even say UIW has more right to exist than a lot of schools that are already open. It is a catholic institution and these institutions are usually good.

You hit the nail on the head - UIW is not a fly-by-night institution or a DeVry clone. Heck, it's got Division I athletics. It is most certainly NOT a boot camp for evangelical fundamentalism as Liberty is, and I think the LUCOM fiasco is what has people on edge about it. It's a wayyyyyyyy better candidate for opening an osteopathic medical school than VCOM-Auburn or for-profit Larkin.

 

[costales]

I've seen the Incarnate Word campus. It has an odd name, but it's a legit old-fashioned Catholic school in San Antonio, started by nuns with rulers.

It's older than the University of Texas.