DO and neurosurgery?

[Hopingforacure]

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Wouldn't having a D.O. instead of an M.D. technically qualify you more for neurosurgery(or any kind of surgery for that matter) since D.O.'s emphasize the muscular-skeletal system far more than their M.D. counterparts?If true,wouldn't this advantage transfer over to neurosurgery residency applications/programs and neurosurgery practice?I haven't seen a single D.O. in all my research for neurosurgery residency programs as of yet.......and it intrigues me and worries me.......Oh and on a semi-related note wouldn't graduate work in neuroscience(Masters or Ph.d) reduce residency time for a neurosurgeon by subtracting the research years?I know its only a year or 2 of clinical research but it's still a year or 2 of clinical research IN A RESIDENCY.In that time I could further specialize and all which would far more benefit me and my patients than added years of research in subjects I'd already have knowledge in,no?Thank you all so much for your answers in advance.I'm a newbie to this forum,so look forward for more dumb questions from the new kid😛

 

[lftbndlbrnchblk]

So, I searched 'neurosurg DO' in Google and found this guy in less than a second

http://www.childrensdmc.org/?id=669&sid=1

Apparently chief of neurosurgery at this hospital. Trained at an allopathic residency (Wayne State). Not to mention he's old, so he probably dealt with all that DO v MD stigma that perhaps was going on back in those days. Now he's everyone's boss.

To answer your first question: No, I don't think so. DOs aren't any more inclined to go into orthopedics or neuro stuff than MDs. It wouldn't even "make sense" to go into one of these even though one or two year-long classes discussed the neuromusculoskeletal system in depth at DO institutions. I wouldn't feel any more confident applying to a neurosurg residency being a DO if my board scores weren't up to par. And an MD isn't a shoe-in at any neurosurg residency just because he or she is an MD. Applying to residency is like applying to med school: it's grades, it's standardized test scores, it's letters, it's experience, it's personal statement, etc etc. Nothing changes.

I don't know about the PhD thing, so I can't really say for sure. My guess is no one is going to care about a PhD unless you did it concurrently with your MD or DO education.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

No, extremely competitive residencies are usually better for MD's ( Few DO residencies and MD programs for the most part will favor MD students). Not meaning you can't get in as a DO. On the topic of research, in the residency you'll be looking at pathology and researching a lot of things such as treatments and not functions of the brain. So I doubt it'll be substitutable.

 

[lftbndlbrnchblk]

No, extremely competitive residencies are usually better for MD's ( Few DO residencies and MD programs for the most part will favor MD students). Not meaning you can't get in as a DO. On the topic of research, in the residency you'll be looking at pathology and researching a lot of things such as treatments and not functions of the brain. So I doubt it'll be substitutable.

They don't have any AOA neurosurg spots?

 

[denco88]

Here is someone not as old who did his residency at NYCOM

http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/svc/find-professional/m/francesco-mangano.htm

 

[Hopingforacure]

So, I searched 'neurosurg DO' in Google and found this guy in less than a second

http://www.childrensdmc.org/?id=669&sid=1

Apparently chief of neurosurgery at this hospital. Trained at an allopathic residency (Wayne State). Not to mention he's old, so he probably dealt with all that DO v MD stigma that perhaps was going on back in those days. Now he's everyone's boss.

To answer your first question: No, I don't think so. DOs aren't any more inclined to go into orthopedics or neuro stuff than MDs. It wouldn't even "make sense" to go into one of these even though one or two year-long classes discussed the neuromusculoskeletal system in depth at DO institutions. I wouldn't feel any more confident applying to a neurosurg residency being a DO if my board scores weren't up to par. And an MD isn't a shoe-in at any neurosurg residency just because he or she is an MD. Applying to residency is like applying to med school: it's grades, it's standardized test scores, it's letters, it's experience, it's personal statement, etc etc. Nothing changes.

I don't know about the PhD thing, so I can't really say for sure. My guess is no one is going to care about a PhD unless you did it concurrently with your MD or DO education.

Meh.That's what I get for using Yahoo search engine.
But thanks for your answer irrespective.

 

[Hopingforacure]

No, extremely competitive residencies are usually better for MD's ( Few DO residencies and MD programs for the most part will favor MD students). Not meaning you can't get in as a DO. On the topic of research, in the residency you'll be looking at pathology and researching a lot of things such as treatments and not functions of the brain. So I doubt it'll be substitutable.

Oh so the research actually matters?To be frank I was thinking it would be like some other program's specialties I could think of,wherein the "research" is tacked on for the sake of the center's prestige.
And thank you for clarifying that an M.D. would be more competitive because of the residencies available.I was thinking that too,but I just wanted to be sure because it seemed counter intuitive at first glance.

Sooooooooo.........
You wouldn't happen to have advice for nailing that neurosurgery residency would you?😛

 

[TriagePreMed]

Speaking honestly, even if a DO would have greater aptitude or prior knowledge, the system is not set up that way. You can definitely become a neurosurgeon as a DO, but if you have the choice to get an MD, it would be best to take that route.

 

[cliquesh]

There are 11 AOA neurological surgery residencies. These residencies take about 2 applicants a year. A few more DO applicants, like 0-5, will land an ACGME residency. So, in total, each year about 22-27 DOs will start a neuro-surgery residency, compared to about ~270 MD's.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They don't have any AOA neurosurg spots?

Few.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Oh so the research actually matters?To be frank I was thinking it would be like some other program's specialties I could think of,wherein the "research" is tacked on for the sake of the center's prestige.
And thank you for clarifying that an M.D. would be more competitive because of the residencies available.I was thinking that too,but I just wanted to be sure because it seemed counter intuitive at first glance.

Sooooooooo.........
You wouldn't happen to have advice for nailing that neurosurgery residency would you?😛

A high comlex + a high usmle and a great ability at interviewing + good medical school grades with mostly honors will help.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Wouldn't having a D.O. instead of an M.D. technically qualify you more for neurosurgery(or any kind of surgery for that matter) since D.O.'s emphasize the muscular-skeletal system far more than their M.D. counterparts?

No

If true,wouldn't this advantage transfer over to neurosurgery residency applications/programs and neurosurgery practice?

Definitely not, at least for ACGME programs (MD programs). They tend to take their own.

Oh and on a semi-related note wouldn't graduate work in neuroscience(Masters or Ph.d) reduce residency time for a neurosurgeon by subtracting the research years?

Many Neurosurgeons already have a PhD. It doesn't reduce your residency.

There are 11 AOA neurological surgery residencies. These residencies take about 2 applicants a year. A few more DO applicants, like 0-5, will land an ACGME residency. So, in total, each year about 22-27 DOs will start a neuro-surgery residency, compared to about ~270 MD's.

The numbers are a bit off:
There are a total of 99 AOA neurosurg spots- through all 6 years of training. That means there are roughly 16 spots a year. ACGME takes 0-1 each year (a total of 3 DOs in the last 5 years) meaning roughly 17 out of the 4000 DOs go into neurosurg.

There are only 170 MDs who do neurosurg each year.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

OP first worry about getting into medical school. no offense, but neurosurg whether you are DO or MD is going to require you to be in at least the top 5 in your class, high USMLE or COMLEX, and a lot of extra work throughout medical school. so instead of focusing on the end, focus on getting into medical school. then focus on acing your classes/neuro research/rocking the boards. then focus on honoring your clinicals. then, if everything else lines up, focus on neurosurg.

 

[Instatewaiter]

OP first worry about getting into medical school. no offense, but neurosurg whether you are DO or MD is going to require you to be in at least the top 5 in your class, high USMLE or COMLEX, and a lot of extra work throughout medical school. so instead of focusing on the end, focus on getting into medical school. then focus on acing your classes/neuro research/rocking the boards. then focus on honoring your clinicals. then, if everything else lines up, focus on neurosurg.

People always think being a neurosurgeon would be great but when you look at the length of training and the hours they work even when out of training you start to wonder why anyone would want to do that when there are so many other things you could do.

 

[cliquesh]

Instatewaiter's numbers are more accurate.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

The numbers are a bit off:
There are a total of 99 AOA neurosurg spots- through all 6 years of training. That means there are roughly 16 spots a year. ACGME takes 0-1 each year (a total of 3 DOs in the last 5 years) meaning roughly 17 out of the 4000 DOs go into neurosurg.

There are only 170 MDs who do neurosurg each year.

This really isn't a fair assessment because all 4000 DO students don't wish or desire to go into neurosurgery.

 

[cliquesh]

It is just like saying 173/16,070 MDs will be neurosurgeons

 

[PunkmedGirl]

It is just like saying 173/16,070 MDs will be neurosurgeons

Which still doesn't provide you with and estimate your possible chances of getting into a neurosurgery residency program. My point is how many DO students actually applied to those 17 spots? 17? 20? or 100?

 

[cliquesh]

I understand what you are saying, but that information isn't released, at least not for DO residencies. On a side note, a program director of one of the DO urology residencies told me that he got 800 something applications last year for 4 spots, so I'd imagine the numbers are similar for NS. By the way, he threw most of the applications out because the applicants didn't rotate with him.

I kind of think DOs that want to do surgery end up applying for all of the AOA surgical residencies...so most of them end up applying for general, ortho, neuro, urology, ent, and so on.

 

[DOwnage]

I kind of think DOs that want to do surgery end up applying for all of the AOA surgical residencies...so most of them end up applying for general, ortho, neuro, urology, ent, and so on.

Is this just because they'd rather do something surgical regardless of the subspecialty? Like settle for a GS spot if they failed to land NS, Ortho, etc. since its "close enough"?

 

[cliquesh]

Yea, that is just my theory, though. It is not uncommon for the good AOA general surgery residencies to get ~1000 applicants a year. I cannot imagine a completely different group of ~800 applicants applying for urology only.

Last year there were 98 general, 85 ortho, 24 ENT, 8 urology, 11 ophthalmology and 15 NS spots for a total of 241 AOA 'surgical' spots. So, with so few spots, it does make sense just to apply to all of them, even though most program directors won't look at you if you don't rotate at their program. 2114 people participated in the AOA match last year, by the way.

And, for those applying to osteopathic medical school, don't be too discouraged by those numbers above. If you want to do surgery, especially GS or ortho, you have a fair shot as long as you get the scores, grades, and rotate at several programs. However, if you are dead set on urology, ent, ns, opthalmology, you may want to consider applying to only MD schools.

By the way, in 2010, there were 30 AOA radiology and 26 gas spots.

 

[Brachyury]

Wouldn't having a D.O. instead of an M.D. technically qualify you more for neurosurgery(or any kind of surgery for that matter) since D.O.'s emphasize the muscular-skeletal system far more than their M.D. counterparts?If true,wouldn't this advantage transfer over to neurosurgery residency applications/programs and neurosurgery practice?I haven't seen a single D.O. in all my research for neurosurgery residency programs as of yet.......and it intrigues me and worries me.......Oh and on a semi-related note wouldn't graduate work in neuroscience(Masters or Ph.d) reduce residency time for a neurosurgeon by subtracting the research years?I know its only a year or 2 of clinical research but it's still a year or 2 of clinical research IN A RESIDENCY.In that time I could further specialize and all which would far more benefit me and my patients than added years of research in subjects I'd already have knowledge in,no?Thank you all so much for your answers in advance.I'm a newbie to this forum,so look forward for more dumb questions from the new kid😛

The research time is required for completion of the residency, so previous research will not allow you to shorten the residency. Besides, most neurosurgery applicants will have extensive research

One of the benefits of going allopathic is that if you are interested in neurosurgery, you can do research with the faculty at your med school from day one. Since almost all allopathic schools have their own hospitals, all you have to do is go up or down a few floors, or walk across the street to the neurosurgery department, and ask to get involved in research. Not only will you be able to gain research experience, you'll also get clinical exposure, as well as a mentor who will advocate and help guide you into neurosurgery. That's not to say that this isn't possible via an osteopathic school, but to echo what others have said, if you are aiming for a very competitive specialty, it's to your benefit to go allopathic

 

[Hopingforacure]

The research time is required for completion of the residency, so previous research will not allow you to shorten the residency. Besides, most neurosurgery applicants will have extensive research

One of the benefits of going allopathic is that if you are interested in neurosurgery, you can do research with the faculty at your med school from day one. Since almost all allopathic schools have their own hospitals, all you have to do is go up or down a few floors, or walk across the street to the neurosurgery department, and ask to get involved in research. Not only will you be able to gain research experience, you'll also get clinical exposure, as well as a mentor who will advocate and help guide you into neurosurgery. That's not to say that this isn't possible via an osteopathic school, but to echo what others have said, if you are aiming for a very competitive specialty, it's to your benefit to go allopathic

So one can get extremely substantial research and experience without even getting a Ph.d?

 

[DOwnage]

However, if you are dead set on urology, ent, ns, opthalmology, you may want to consider applying to only MD schools.

I'm not discounting your advice by any means, but is it really that difficult as a DO to match ACGME for those specialties though? I'm talking any program, not your elite university programs where they have a "never have taken a DO and never plan on it" type of attitude.

 

[cliquesh]

I'm not discounting your advice by any means, but is it really that difficult as a DO to match ACGME for those specialties though? I'm talking any program, not your elite university programs where they have a "never have taken a DO and never plan on it" type of attitude.

Yea, it is rare for a DO to enter any ACGME surgical residency, regardless of the status of the program. The only exception may be general surg, but the numbers for gen surg are not that good.

In 2010, according to NRMP, 1 osteopathic student entered an ACGME NS residency, 3 did ACGME ortho, and 1 did ACGME ENT. Urology and, I believe, optham have separate matches, so their numbers are not listed in NRMP, but I'd expect similar numbers for those specialities.

There are so few spots, only 173 NS spots and 280 ENT spots, for instance, and there are plenty of qualified MDs. So, yea, you can be an ENT as a DO, but it is going to be harder and it is unlikely you will do your training at an ACGME program.

And, to be perfectly honest, most people are not going to get the boards/grades to do any of the really competitive stuff, so it doesn't make sense to worry too much about it.

 

[DOwnage]

Is it rare only because the AOA match happens first? Meaning anybody who wants to do those has the same idea that its difficult to enter ACGME, so they don't risk anything and try to match in AOA. Also, aren't the statistics suggesting that so few DO's enter competitive ACGME surgical specialties somewhat skewed because there are spots taken by IMG's and there are some unfilled spots too? Granted, the IMG/unfilled spots are very few, but they exist. What's the point of having those unfilled spots?

Yea, it is rare for a DO to enter any ACGME surgical residency, regardless of the status of the program. The only exception may be general surg, but the numbers for gen surg are not that good.

In 2010, according to NRMP, 1 osteopathic student entered an ACGME NS residency, 3 did ACGME ortho, and 1 did ACGME ENT. Urology and, I believe, optham have separate matches, so their numbers are not listed in NRMP, but I'd expect similar numbers for those specialities.

There are so few spots, only 173 NS spots and 280 ENT spots, for instance, and there are plenty of qualified MDs. So, yea, you can be an ENT as a DO, but it is going to be harder and it is unlikely you will do your training at an ACGME program.

And, to be perfectly honest, most people are not going to get the boards/grades to do any of the really competitive stuff, so it doesn't make sense to worry too much about it.

 

[fahimaz7]

This thread is full of win. Why is anyone evening taking this thread serioulsy?

 

[cliquesh]

Is it rare only because the AOA match happens first? Meaning anybody who wants to do those has the same idea that its difficult to enter ACGME, so they don't risk anything and try to match in AOA. Also, aren't the statistics suggesting that so few DO's enter competitive ACGME surgical specialties somewhat skewed because there are spots taken by IMG's and there are some unfilled spots too? Granted, the IMG/unfilled spots are very few, but they exist. What's the point of having those unfilled spots?

Your first point is probably true for gen surg and, to some degree, ortho. You'd probably see more DOs in ACGME gen and ortho if the AOA match occured at the same time or after the ACGME match. However, I don't think it applies to any of the other surgical specialities. Sure, you'd probably see one or two more doing ACGME NS, but it wouldn't be anything oustanding. That is just my opinion, though.

I'm not really sure what you mean by your second point. There were 280 ACGME ENT spots last year, and 272 of those spots were filled by US MD graduates. So there were 8 remaining spots, one spot was taken by a DO, and the rest by either a canadian or IMG.

There are usually only 0-3 unfilled spots a year for each surgical speciality. Either not enough people ranked the program (the program didn't interview enough people) or the PD specifically kept a spot open to match a potentially overqualified applicant in the scramble.


Fahimaz, hah, what is so wrong with this thread? I agree that people shouldn't worry too much about how easy/hard it is to match a competitive field as a DO, but I think people should be aware of some of the numbers.

 

[Brachyury]

So one can get extremely substantial research and experience without even getting a Ph.d?

I never use emoticons, but I feel this is merited

 

[NurWollen]

Fahimaz, hah, what is so wrong with this thread? I agree that people shouldn't worry too much about how easy/hard it is to match a competitive field as a DO, but I think people should be aware of some of the numbers.

Yeah, I mean, we have to have something to do while we wait our turn to apply.

I just think people want to do Neurosurgury so they can be the subject of the idiom, "it's not brain surgery."

 

[DOwnage]

LOL I dont even know what I was thinking when I wrote that. I was waking up for class off of 4.5 hrs of sleep. I think I meant to say it doesn't appear "impossible" to fill with DO's since IMG's have taken those spots and the general mood I've read from other's accounts of prog. directors is that DO > International MD

Your first point is probably true for gen surg and, to some degree, ortho. You'd probably see more DOs in ACGME gen and ortho if the AOA match occured at the same time or after the ACGME match. However, I don't think it applies to any of the other surgical specialities. Sure, you'd probably see one or two more doing ACGME NS, but it wouldn't be anything oustanding. That is just my opinion, though.

I'm not really sure what you mean by your second point. There were 280 ACGME ENT spots last year, and 272 of those spots were filled by US MD graduates. So there were 8 remaining spots, one spot was taken by a DO, and the rest by either a canadian or IMG.

There are usually only 0-3 unfilled spots a year for each surgical speciality. Either not enough people ranked the program (the program didn't interview enough people) or the PD specifically kept a spot open to match a potentially overqualified applicant in the scramble.


Fahimaz, hah, what is so wrong with this thread? I agree that people shouldn't worry too much about how easy/hard it is to match a competitive field as a DO, but I think people should be aware of some of the numbers.

 

[cliquesh]

I would say, in general, it is significantly better to be a DO than an IMG, especially an US-IMG. However, in ACGME surgery, there is still a strong DO bias and there are plenty of qualified US MDs that want those surgical spots.

Basically, DOs have a hard time getting ACGME Surgery (ortho, NS, ENt, etc), Derm, rad oncology, and, to some degree, diagnostic rads. Everything else is reasonable to achieve as a DO.

 

[Hopingforacure]

Yeah, I mean, we have to have something to do while we wait our turn to apply.

I just think people want to do Neurosurgury so they can be the subject of the idiom, "it's not brain surgery."

And people just want to become doctors for the high salaries.
Oh wait.

 

[thethom]

LOL pretty much, of course noone will admit it. 😛

 

[JaggerPlate]

And people just want to become doctors for the high salaries.
Oh wait.

They're about 25 years too late.

Neurosurg is nuts ... I can't think of a more hilarious/stereotypical pre-medical aspiration, but try a 7ish year surgical residency, followed by a 70 hour a week position for the rest of your life. Granted, you'll make a million a year, but you'll never see it ... especially when everything falls to hell after 1-2 years in practice and you're paying half of it a year in alimony.

Silver lining ... you haven't made any decisions yet (nor do you have the foresight to do so). Go to medical school, keep an open mind, work hard, and if you still want to do N-surg 4 years later ... good luck. Until then, this argument is just so horrendously moot.

 

[Hopingforacure]

They're about 25 years too late.

Neurosurg is nuts ... I can't think of a more hilarious/stereotypical pre-medical aspiration, but try a 7ish year surgical residency, followed by a 70 hour a week position for the rest of your life. Granted, you'll make a million a year, but you'll never see it ... especially when everything falls to hell after 1-2 years in practice and you're paying half of it a year in alimony.

Silver lining ... you haven't made any decisions yet (nor do you have the foresight to do so). Go to medical school, keep an open mind, work hard, and if you still want to do N-surg 4 years later ... good luck. Until then, this argument is just so horrendously moot.

You misunderstand me.I wish to get into any interventional or surgical specialty.But what with this being the internet and all,I see no reason why I shouldn't shotgun for as much relevant information for me as possible,even on neurosurgery.I wonder if I would have received as much derision on this forum if I would have asked information on orthopedic surgery instead🙄
But oh well.

 

[JaggerPlate]

You misunderstand me.I wish to get into any interventional or surgical specialty.But what with this being the internet and all,I see no reason why I shouldn't shotgun for as much relevant information for me as possible,even on neurosurgery.I wonder if I would have received as much derision on this forum if I would have asked information on orthopedic surgery instead🙄
But oh well.

You misunderstand me ... you don't wish to get into any 'interventional or surgical specialty' because you have absolutely no idea what this entails. It doesn't matter whether you're asking about Neurosurgery, Ortho surgery, Plastic surgery, etc, my POINT is that you're far, far, far too new to this game to have any idea what this means. Because of this, it's far more efficient to focus your efforts on simply getting into a good medical school and working hard. Once you've completed steps A-Y, you can jump head first into Z if it's still what you want to do. However, chances are that it won't be (especially because you first asked about N-Surg, then changed it to anything interventional/surgery), which is why you should go in with an open mind, see what you like, work hard to have options, and then make a decision.

 

[st2205]

The most important question to be asked is if someone's having a tough time being competitive for an acceptance to an MD program, how likely is it that four years later they're competitive for ACGME neurosurgery? This needs some serious consideration. A number of people (albeit few in proportion) are able to turn it around in medical school and do much better than in undergrad, but going from being a longshot for allopathic admissions to being competitive for ACGME NS is a gigantic gap.

So the question really is that if they can turn it around a significant amount, what are their chances for OGME NS as a DO vs. their chances of ACGME NS as an MD? I have no data to support either, especially with how little information is known about the DO applicant pool, but my gut is telling me moreso the former and less the latter.

But if everyone thinks every Tom Thompson with a 3.3 and 27 should push for MD to land ACGME derm, ortho or neurosurgery rather than the DO counterparts, then by all means advise away.

 

[Black Adder]

The most important question to be asked is if someone's having a tough time being competitive for an acceptance to an MD program, how likely is it that four years later they're competitive for ACGME neurosurgery? This needs some serious consideration. A number of people (albeit few in proportion) are able to turn it around in medical school and do much better than in undergrad, but going from being a longshot for allopathic admissions to being competitive for ACGME NS is a gigantic gap.

So the question really is that if they can turn it around a significant amount, what are their chances for OGME NS as a DO vs. their chances of ACGME NS as an MD? I have no data to support either, especially with how little information is known about the DO applicant pool, but my gut is telling me moreso the former and less the latter.

But if everyone thinks every Tom Thompson with a 3.3 and 27 should push for MD to land ACGME derm, ortho or neurosurgery rather than the DO counterparts, then by all means advise away.

Agree with above statement.

Premeds, please focus on getting into med school first before posing hypothetical questions about the likelihood of you landing some uber competitive residency. You already know the answer. You work extremly hard, get the best grades/board scores you can get..... and then MAYBE, you'll land that NS residency that you think you want right now.

 

[Hopingforacure]

Agree with above statement.

Premeds, please focus on getting into med school first before posing hypothetical questions about the likelihood of you landing some uber competitive residency. You already know the answer. You work extremly hard, get the best grades/board scores you can get..... and then MAYBE, you'll land that NS residency that you think you want right now.

Yep.

 

[Hopingforacure]

LOL pretty much, of course noone will admit it. 😛

Damn straight.