DO and residencies

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MaximLA

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Hi, I was wondering about residency

I know that for DO to get into MD residency he/she has to take the USMLE right?
For example if I want to be a cardiologist, do I have to go to a DO or MD residency?

What kinds of residencies do DO's not have?

How well does the DO have to score in comparison to the MD? How hard is it to achieve those scores? Is it like the MCAT, then what would be a comparison of the hardness.

thanx
 
MaximLA said:
Hi, I was wondering about residency

I know that for DO to get into MD residency he/she has to take the USMLE right?
For example if I want to be a cardiologist, do I have to go to a DO or MD residency?

What kinds of residencies do DO's not have?

How well does the DO have to score in comparison to the MD? How hard is it to achieve those scores? Is it like the MCAT, then what would be a comparison of the hardness.

thanx
Click to expand...

I don't have all of the answers to your questions, since I'm just an MS-0. However, from everything that I've read, you are not required to take the USMLE Step I, but it is a good idea if you are going to go for a more competitive Allopathic residency (i.e., if you want to match in the Allopathic residency match for a more competitive residency). It gives the directors something to compare directly; a lot of them aren't familiar with COMLEX scores.

As far as I know, there are no specialties that DO's don't have. There might be more or less slots as compared to the allopathic match, however. I've heard a suggestion that quality between Osteopathic residencies and Allopathic residencies may differ for certain fields. You'll want to research this further.

Cardiology is a fellowship, not a residency. You need to complete an IM residency first before pursuing a Cardiology fellowship.

I heard that the format of the two tests in question (USMLE Step I and COMLEX) are similar to the MCAT in that they are primarly passage based, with some discrete questions. The difference between these two tests and the MCAT is that they are patient scenario based. They couch basic science questions in the form of a patient encounter, etc. There are differences in focus between the COMLEX and the USMLE Step I. I heard there is more emphasis on "bugs" and "drugs" for the COMLEX.
 
bigdog8829 said:
I'm not too sure about the MD to DO. I don't think an MD can apply for an osteopathic residency from my understanding.
Click to expand...

Let me clarify, as a DO you can apply to EITHER Allo IM or Osteo IM and then take the fellowship in cards in EITHER Allo or Osteo programs
 
I am also wondering about the realistic competetiveness of DO for the Allo residency.

I know that it depends on the USMLE scores right? but I was wondering what else determines the applicants chances?

For example, my verbal on the MCAT is weak, will this affect my ability to do well on the USMLE? or is it more of a science based test?

Also, how does internship and residency work, because it says that you are required to go to internship for 1 year? does this count as a part of residency?
or is residency in addition to that?
 
The real answer about DO's in MD residencies is: "It depends"

It depends on the location (are there 1% DO's in that state or 10%, is there a DO school in the state or a neighboring state).

It depends on the overall competativeness of the specialty (are we talking about Plastic Surgery or are we talking Family Practice)

It depends on the individual program (ie have they ever had a DO resident before)

and of course...

It depends on the individual applicant (USMLE and/or COMLEX scores, GPA, letters of rec, audition rotations, your personality, etc)
 
Taus said:
The real answer about DO's in MD residencies is: "It depends"

It depends on the location (are there 1% DO's in that state or 10%, is there a DO school in the state or a neighboring state).

It depends on the overall competativeness of the specialty (are we talking about Plastic Surgery or are we talking Family Practice)

It depends on the individual program (ie have they ever had a DO resident before)

and of course...

It depends on the individual applicant (USMLE and/or COMLEX scores, GPA, letters of rec, audition rotations, your personality, etc)
Click to expand...

It definitely depends. However, the USMLE is, by no means, a pre-requisite to matching to a competitive allopathic residency! There are tons of other factors in the "match algorithm."
 
So just a few questions then?

If I want to go to a residency for internal medicine in california, MD or DO

and I graduate from a DO medical school

What would my USMLE/COMPLEX score have to be considering all the other things are average?

is there a link to average USMLE/COMPLEX scores for different residency types....kind of like average MCAT scores for medical schools?
 
MaximLA said:
So just a few questions then?

If I want to go to a residency for internal medicine in california, MD or DO

and I graduate from a DO medical school

What would my USMLE/COMPLEX score have to be considering all the other things are average?

is there a link to average USMLE/COMPLEX scores for different residency types....kind of like average MCAT scores for medical schools?
Click to expand...

Dude, it depends on the program and residency/specialty, how well you did in school, your contacts, letters of recommendations, and interview, and sometimes research experience and other factors. And it's, COMLEX, not COMPLEX. Basically, strive to do as well as you can. You don't want to play, "what minimum score do I need?" In general, however, IM is not a competitive specialty.
 
Yeha thanks sry COMLEX,
Im just trying to figure out how the Residency matching process works and what is required to succeed in it. So far I hear that for DO's its much harder to get more desired residencies as compared to MD's. I just want to know how much harder it is and how realistic it is.
Process seems more grueling than getting into medical school
 
MaximLA said:
Im just trying to figure out how the Residency matching process works and what is required to succeed in it. So far I hear that for DO's its much harder to get more desired residencies as compared to MD's. I just want to know how much harder it is and how realistic it is.
Process seems more grueling than getting into medical school
Click to expand...

Yes, the match process definitely seems challenging; the medical school application process is but the very tip of the iceburg, it seems.

I disagree that it is much harder to match in a competitive residency as a DO. First of all, matching into a competitive residency is tough, whether you are a DO, or MD. It's universally difficult. However, if you are a DO and want to match into a competitive Allopathic residency, then, yes, it might be a little more inconvenient and challenging. I've heard that you can mitigate this somewhat by making good connections during your rotations, rocking the COMLEX/USMLE, and having good LOR's, and sometimes having additional research experiences. Basically, I think it's a little tougher because your DO program might be unknown, or less known, to the Allopathic residency directors; you need to stand out a little more--that's what I think. Don't forget that there are equivalent DO residencies, too. You may not need, or desire, to match into an Allopathic residency for what you want.

Also, keep in mind that IM is not a competitive residency; it is considered a primary care specialty. I think as long as you perform decently, you can match IM without a hitch.
 
MaximLA,

The short answer to your question: IM is wide open. If you decided to go DO and wanted to do an MD residency, you'll have no problem matching. In all likelihood, you won't need to take the USMLE either.
 
How about if I want to be cardiologist/gastrointerologis?

Is there a preference, are those also relatively accessible?
 
MaximLA said:
How about if I want to be cardiologist/gastrointerologis?

Is there a preference, are those also relatively accessible?
Click to expand...

1st, pick up a dictionary.

2nd, both are real competitive, cardiology moreso.
 
So are fellowships for cardiology/ gastroenterology obtained based on your performance in residency?
 
MaximLA said:
So are fellowships for cardiology/ gastroenterology obtained based on your performance in residency?
Click to expand...

Just get into medical school first ...

Fellowships should not be your primary concern at this point.
 
MaximLA said:
So are fellowships for cardiology/ gastroenterology obtained based on your performance in residency?
Click to expand...

Let me help you out: MEDICINE IS COMPLICATED
There are people who work their butts off that get these spots, and there are peeps who just knows the director to get these spots, If you want these fields, best thing to do is A. work your butt off. B. Know people who know people. C. The first two will get you anything you want, no matter what school you go to or where you go for residency.
 
Toohotinvegas33 said:
Let me help you out: MEDICINE IS COMPLICATED
There are people who work their butts off that get these spots, and there are peeps who just knows the director to get these spots, If you want these fields, best thing to do is A. work your butt off. B. Know people who know people. C. The first two will get you anything you want, no matter what school you go to or where you go for residency.
Click to expand...

👍
 
TzDoc I hope someone answers your question because Id like to know as well
 
This is how things work:
A) Get into med school.
B) Get through your first year.
C) Get through your second year.
D) Take the COMLEX and maybe the USMLE (depends on your grades, how well you test, what you want to do).
E) Do very well in your 3rd year rotations.
F) Figure out what you want to do (done concurrently with E).
G) During your 4th year do a couple of away (tryout) rotations at places you think you might want to match.
H) Apply to a billion residencies.
I) Go to every interview you're offered.
J) Certify you ROL (Rank Order List, the list of programs you want to go to).
K) Cross your fingers.
L) Open your e-mail the week of Match Day (if you get an e-mail from the NRMP you're golden, if not you scramble).
M) Open you letter on Match Day and learn where you're going for the next while.
N) Go to residency and learn medicine.


So, without being a jerk, don't worry about G-N until you've gotten at least past D.
 
As I understand it endocrine is a subspecialty of IM, so get into medical school then, get a good residency in IM, and then work your tail off and get an endocrine fellowship.
 
TzDoc said:
MaximLA,
I feel your confusion! I am trying to figure out how everything works as well, especially the sequence of events to specialize. Anyone know about the availability of DO endocrinology residencies? At AOA there seems to only be two in the nation. Does that mean as a DO I would have to be matched to an allo residency? Thanks guys!
Click to expand...

DO fellowships are few and far between compared to MD choices. Therefore, it is very likely that if one decided to do ANY fellowship post residency, it will be an allopathic fellowship.

However, an allopathic residency is NOT a pre-requisite for an allopathic fellowship. You can do an osteopathic IM residency followed by an allopathic fellowship.

Hope that clears things up.
 
Bobcat 05 said:
This is how things work:
A) Get into med school.
B) Get through your first year.
C) Get through your second year.
D) Take the COMLEX and maybe the USMLE (depends on your grades, how well you test, what you want to do).
E) Do very well in your 3rd year rotations.
F) Figure out what you want to do (done concurrently with E).
G) During your 4th year do a couple of away (tryout) rotations at places you think you might want to match.
H) Apply to a billion residencies.
I) Go to every interview you're offered.
J) Certify you ROL (Rank Order List, the list of programs you want to go to).
K) Cross your fingers.
L) Open your e-mail the week of Match Day (if you get an e-mail from the NRMP you're golden, if not you scramble).
M) Open you letter on Match Day and learn where you're going for the next while.
N) Go to residency and learn medicine.


So, without being a jerk, don't worry about G-N until you've gotten at least past D.
Click to expand...

Bobcat has hit the nail on its head with this post. Pre-meds should chill-out when it comes to stuff like a fellowship.
 
As interesting as endocrinology may be, it is not that competitive of a fellowship to obtain.
 
VALSALVA said:
That's because it's not very interesting! :laugh:
Click to expand...

I think its very interesting, but that may be because my youngest brother is a type I diabetic, and metabolism is the heart of everything. 😉
 
madscientist50 said:
I think its very interesting, but that may be because my youngest brother is a type I diabetic, and metabolism is the heart of everything. 😉
Click to expand...

Oh yes...I realize that it is more interesting to some. Having a personal connection definitely helps. My statement was partially in jest but was also a nomothetic statement as well. In general, endocrinology is not considered "interesting" - which helps explain why it's a wide open field despite being lucrative, with great hours and no call.
 
You should read Iserson's "Getting Into A Residency". It will answer every single question you have. If you are a DO, you should take the USMLE if you even think you might want to possibly kinda do a residency at an MD program. Score well on the USMLE (like REAL well...like 10 points above the avg to give yourself some cushioning) in order to clear any questions a program director might have about your training. Go rotate at places you like at least once, several times is ideal. Apply early, have good letters, good interviews, good auditions, good personality, and above all get to know the residents and make sure you like them and they like the place. If you have a 4.0 and 240 on the USMLE, who cares what letters are behind your name? MD or DO, you are a very solid applicant! As far as the MD IM/ DO IM thing goes...thats your residency not your school. Cardiology is a subspecialty, thus you have to effectively "match" into a fellowship for cards (which is a highly competitive subspec.) through the advanced match. I too am lowly MS-0, but the book I mentioned earlier is an absolute must for understanding all of this, even now. Med School is literally the bridge to getting a residency. Build the best bridge you can and you'll get to the best residency that you WANT (which is the best overall for you). Build a crappy bridge and it crumbles (ie no match...yikes :scared:). Best of luck, go read the book, its a good and useful read.
 
I mostly agree with the above posters insights out of Iserson's book. However, it is definitely possible to match into a competitive MD residency spot WITHOUT taking the USMLE. I wouldn't necessarily advise against taking the USMLE for many people, but it definitely isn't a "must."
 
There is a wealth of misinformation in this post.

The plain and simple truth is that it is more difficult for a DO student to obtain an allopathic residency spot when competing with equally qualified MD students. So, in effect, you must be better than them. Take the USMLE. There are plenty of people who will tell you that it is not necessary. True. If you want FP or a community based primary care spot, it is not necessary. If you want a competitive or semi-competitive spot, take the test.

There are all sorts of licensing and board certification hurdles for a DO who does a non-AOA residency, particularly if they try to pursue a non-AOA Fellowship following that. DO residency to MD fellowship is a nightmare. And you can damn near forget about MD residency to DO fellowship, especially without the AOA TRI.

Take it from someone who is in a pretty competitive allopathic surgery program...take the USMLE, make connections in the MD world and work your ass off. I knew my limitations if I were to go to a DO surgical program. I stuck to the MD world for my post grad training as there were no DO or dually accredited programs that would land me that top Vascular spot.
 
Weitlander said:
There is a wealth of misinformation in this post.

The plain and simple truth is that it is more difficult for a DO student to obtain an allopathic residency spot when competing with equally qualified MD students. So, in effect, you must be better than them. Take the USMLE. There are plenty of people who will tell you that it is not necessary. True. If you want FP or a community based primary care spot, it is not necessary. If you want a competitive or semi-competitive spot, take the test.

There are all sorts of licensing and board certification hurdles for a DO who does a non-AOA residency, particularly if they try to pursue a non-AOA Fellowship following that. DO residency to MD fellowship is a nightmare. And you can damn near forget about MD residency to DO fellowship, especially without the AOA TRI.

Take it from someone who is in a pretty competitive allopathic surgery program...take the USMLE, make connections in the MD world and work your ass off. I knew my limitations if I were to go to a DO surgical program. I stuck to the MD world for my post grad training as there were no DO or dually accredited programs that would land me that top Vascular spot.
Click to expand...

If you were referring to my post, I'm not sure what to say. I agree with Weitlander that taking the USMLE (and doing well) can only help "level the playing field" when PD's are examining applicant files. I guess my only point is that if you are a DO, and IF you have an awesome CV, did >90th percentile on your COMLEX exams, then you may be able to get away with only the COMLEX. Basically: "Rockstar" = match regardless of USMLE or not. I use myself and NSUQuinn as examples as both of us matched to MD EM programs with COMLEX scores only (very good scores). I have a buddy in Johns Hopkin's Anesthesia program with COMLEX only. Sure, these are anecdotes, but there are many more where that came from. It is possible.
 
take the usmle.....make sure you take it around the same time as the comlex. honestly...you will only be doing your self a huge favor. regardless of what u go into...by taking the usmle and just passing it, will make you so much more marketable and they will b e able to compare you to the rest of the country. you can't assume that everyone knows about comlex and how it correlates to the usmle. its actually a very straightforward exam compared with comlex and it will raise your comlex score that much higher. take the usmle kaplan exams...not the kaplan comlex b/c they are a joke. and do whatever you can to get ahold of any Goljian tapes b/c they are a lifesaver. Dont be one of those DO's that say "if a residency doesnt take comlex or acknoweledges it than its not a place i want to be" b/ thats not very fair. just keep in mind we are a minority so you can't expect everyone to get the comlex. trust me...ive taken both parts and i still dont get that exam.
good luck
 
if my last post sounded odd is b/c im slightly wasted...but it was still my honest opinion.
happy st. pattys day
 
VALSALVA said:
If you were referring to my post, I'm not sure what to say. I agree with Weitlander that taking the USMLE (and doing well) can only help "level the playing field" when PD's are examining applicant files. I guess my only point is that if you are a DO, and IF you have an awesome CV, did >90th percentile on your COMLEX exams, then you may be able to get away with only the COMLEX. Basically: "Rockstar" = match regardless of USMLE or not. I use myself and NSUQuinn as examples as both of us matched to MD EM programs with COMLEX scores only (very good scores). I have a buddy in Johns Hopkin's Anesthesia program with COMLEX only. Sure, these are anecdotes, but there are many more where that came from. It is possible.
Click to expand...

But see...you are describing cases where you need to be a kick ass student in order to match. A regular, average DO student needs as many things in his favor as he can get. USMLE includes that. Is it possible without the USMLE? Of course. But why screw around when you are already running an uphill race?
 
Reviving this thread...

I was wondering if anyone can share personal experience of going into IM in allopathic residency and then into a fellowship: for example cardiology, nephrology, or any other fellowship at an allo residency. How hard was this to do, did you feel like you had to be much better the the MD students, and if so by how much better.

And anyone who has actually passed this and out in the workforce, are there any opportunities that you feel would require a more outstanding CV than the MD next to you...that is if there are any.

Thanks a lot it would be really helpful to know.
 
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