Do any of you find it absurd that we must ask for race to chance people?

[Demosthenes1]

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OP is a new member and already is questioning race and admissions.
Something smells fishy.

 

[Demosthenes1]

Affirmative action has done nothing to increase URM representation in medicine. In fact, the number of black doctors has decreased in proportion to their demographics over the last few decades.

That has nothing to do with Affirmative Action.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/magazine/a-prescription-for-more-black-doctors.html

 

[The Buff OP]

 

[managedcarefin]

I'm curious why in other professions such a thing would seem absurd, yet it is okay to force equal representation in medicine through selective admissions.

Would you favor selectively recruiting Asian sprinters for the US olympic team? They are no doubt underrepresented.

What about African Americans in investment banking or big law? They aren't represented enough there.

How about Asian representation in the house of representatives or senate? Should we put a modifier on the votes they get to even the playing field and create equal representation?

As someone on the administration side of healthcare you can't be more disconnected from reality. There is AA in all areas do you know in order to get into a top business school as an African American all things being equal you can have a lower GMAT score than an Asian individual. Sports is completely different and even isn't up for debate as sports are governed by what makes you the most money. Jeremy Lin is an average at best basketball player in the NBA but is making a ton of money because 1. He is marketable 2. He is unique, "normal" careers don't work the same way.

 

[SabaChampion]

Shocking that you can't appreciate that this outcome is the result of multiple variables. You've made the same overly simplistic post in multiple threads now.

Well even if I acquiesced that there were outside forces keeping minority groups from being properly represented in medicine, that still says nothing about the effectiveness of this particular "policy." Whatever is causing the disparity, AA is supposed to alleviate it. It has utterly failed in doing so. Keeping an ineffective policy alive because we have no better alternatives is broken logic, as AA actively hurts other applicants.

As much as admissions committees love to say that AA doesn't exist for the benefit of the applicant, it exists for the benefit of the school, it seems to primarily only help the applicant.

 

[SabaChampion]

That has nothing to do with Affirmative Action.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/magazine/a-prescription-for-more-black-doctors.html

See my other post

 

[Silence in ER]

Eh, this thread is kind of stupid. Op stated that urms are "getting in with lower stats", missing from the discussion is that lots of applicants coming in with lower stats, people who are rural applicants or instate. Should this be illegal too Op?

 

[ChrisMack390]

Income, parents' education, area one grew up in, etc. are also accounted for in the admissions process. I agree that race does not exist in a vacuum, but fortunately so do the adcoms.

 

[ZedsDed]

Eh, this thread is kind of stupid. Op stated that urms are "getting in with lower stats", missing from the discussion is that lots of applicants coming in with lower stats, people who are rural applicants or instate. Should this be illegal too Op?

"I only care about inequality when it affects me dingus!"

 

[Hobakie]

Whenever an applicant with borderline stats comes along (MCAT 27-29, GPA 3.3-3.5) inevitably the question asked is "What is your race?" or if they want to put it euphemistically "Are you URM?"

Why isn't this question "What obstacles have you overcome in life?" "What was your financial situation growing up?" "What neighborhood did you grow up in?"

Race is no substitute for these questions. Why does nobody find this absurd?

Idk how to respond to this with

Judging from the the post I already know that this is the exact reason why admissions are the way they are. Not neccessarily from your words but the thoughts that you probably had behind them. Just think about it practically. If you had an overweight poor african american patient with high blood pressure and a whole host of conditions because of it I can already tell you would assume this person doesnt care about their life you would likely think why doesnt he just diet and eat healthier its not hard.

Unfortunately what you should be thinking is well why isnt he eating healthy. Maybe its because he works 12 hour days to feed their family who buy what ever is cheapest since they are on a budget. Maybe this patient doesnt have the education or resources or means to know what is better for him to eat how to excercise properly or what is actually happening to his body when he doesnt take care of it. THIS can only be taught so much in med school. That empathy identification and like thought process will only come from someone who understands those qualities and experiences. A patient like that doesnt need or want a doctor that will accuse them and make them feel even more upset than they are they want someone who actually knows their circumstances and can act according to them

 

[SabaChampion]

Idk how to respond to this with

Judging from the the post I already know that this is the exact reason why admissions are the way they are. Not neccessarily from your words but the thoughts that you probably had behind them. Just think about it practically. If you had an overweight poor african american patient with high blood pressure and a whole host of conditions because of it I can already tell you would assume this person doesnt care about their life you would likely think why doesnt he just diet and eat healthier its not hard.

Unfortunately what you should be thinking is well why isnt he eating healthy. Maybe its because he works 12 hour days to feed their family who buy what ever is cheapest since they are on a budget. Maybe this patient doesnt have the education or resources or means to know what is better for him to eat how to excercise properly or what is actually happening to his body when he doesnt take care of it. THIS can only be taught so much in med school. That empathy identification and like thought process will only come from someone who understands those qualities and experiences. A patient like that doesnt need or want a doctor that will accuse them and make them feel even more upset than they are they want someone who actually knows their circumstances and can act according to them

This isn't really relevant, but disease rates often differ along racial lines for genetic reasons.

 

[Turkishking]

.

 

[WingedOx]

Well even if I acquiesced that there were outside forces keeping minority groups from being properly represented in medicine, that still says nothing about the effectiveness of this particular "policy." Whatever is causing the disparity, AA is supposed to alleviate it. It has utterly failed in doing so. Keeping an ineffective policy alive because we have no better alternatives is broken logic

So help me understand your argument. Are you arguing that without AA the number of URM physicians would increase/remain equal, or are you stating that AA should go away because it hasn't completely alleviated the problem?

 

[Hobakie]

This isn't really relevant, but disease rates often differ along racial lines for genetic reasons.

Yes but since when did social and socioeconomic factors not play into diseases/conditions and what populations they are common in?🙄

 

[SabaChampion]

So help me understand your argument. Are you arguing that without AA the number of URM physicians would increase/remain equal, or are you stating that AA should go away because it hasn't completely alleviated the problem?

The number of URM physicians has steadily decreased over the past few decades. Therefore, AA has done nothing.

I don't think eliminating AA will worsen the problem, if that is your question.

 

[SabaChampion]

Yes but since when did social and socioeconomic factors not play into diseases/conditions and what populations they are common in?🙄

Your example was a poor one then. Heart disease in particular, has a strong genetic component.

 

[Cotterpin]

The number of URM physicians has steadily decreased over the past few decades. Therefore, AA has done nothing.

I don't think eliminating AA will worsen the problem, if that is your question.

Why don't you think it will make the problem worse?

 

[ZedsDed]

Why don't you think it will make the problem worse?

He is making an assumption. For all we know the rate of reduction would have been higher without AA.

 

[Hobakie]

Your example was a poor one then. Heart disease in particular, has a strong genetic component.

But it wasnt yes it has a strong genetic component but if you have a healthy lifestyle that almost doesnt matter just like a person whose not genetically prone but has a life style that exposes them to will still have the disease.

Honestly idk why i am even arguing with you, who clearly wants an arguement instead of a conversation. You just proved mine and everyone elses point anyway. A doctor whose "highly qualified" academically but cant look past the numbers and data and into the other major contributing factors of his HUMAN patients shouldnt become a doctor and if they did theyd be a **** one

 

[thrudheim]

As I keep reading this thread, I can't help but wonder how OP would feel about this conversation if he/she had experienced life on the other side of the Great White Wall of Privilege.

 

[WingedOx]

The number of URM physicians has steadily decreased over the past few decades. Therefore, AA has done nothing.

For your sake, I'm glad you didn't take the LSAT.

 

[WingedOx]

As I keep reading this thread, I can't help but wonder how OP would feel about this conversation if he/she had experienced life on the other side of the Great White Wall of Privilege.

Or to put it in a way that doesn't like a comment on Jezebel: If given the opportunity, would the OP switch places in life with a URM applicant? Doubt it.

 

[thrudheim]

Or to put it in a way that doesn't like a comment on Jezebel: If given the opportunity, would the OP switch places in life with a URM applicant? Doubt it.

My social justice warrior is showing

 

[Cotterpin]

He is making an assumption. For all we know the rate of reduction would have been higher without AA.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm curious to see his answer.

 

[Cookie04]

LOL someone is salty!!! And no it isn't absurd. But you know what is? This obsession with URM's on SDN. At first I was kind of annoyed, but now I'm just flattered

 

[Chelsea FC]

I always find it funny in WHAT ARE My CHANCES thread when people ask the oP if they are URM and there response is unfortunately no.. lol lol I love to be black that is who I am but I would be lying to myself If i didnt think it would be easier being the other race. Not feeling my heart rate increase when the police stops me fearing I would be profiled, not being followed in stores and not getting dirty looks from fathers because this black kid is boning their daughter . So I fin it funny in this one instance people want to be black .

 

[Hobakie]

I always find it funny in WHAT ARE My CHANCES thread when people ask the oP if they are URM and there response is unfortunately no.. lol lol I love to be black that is who I am but I would be lying to myself If i didnt think it would be easier being the other race. Not feeling my heart rate increase when the police stops me fearing I would be profiled, not being followed in stores and not getting dirty looks from fathers because this black kid is boning their daughter . So I fin it funny in this one instance people want to be black .

if i could frame this........

Funny thing js It would only be while they are applying they would have a much different thought process if they actually knew what it means to be a black med student. Just because you are a doctor doesnt mean ignorants and racists suddenly change how they look at you.

 

[deleted482591]

Like it or not, blacks/hispanics/native americans>whites>asians in terms of disadvantage proportions.

You're absurdly ignorant. In what white male fantasy-land do Asian-Americans even come close to the immense white privilege enjoyed by yourself?

 

[Lost in Translation]

As I keep reading this thread, I can't help but wonder how OP would feel about this conversation if he/she had experienced life on the other side of the Great White Wall of Privilege.

Let me preface this by saying what follows is a completely loaded and/or unfair question:

If you were of an URM group but your family lives a life that is not stereotypical of that group, how would that change the discussion?

In other words, let's say OP was allowed to check an ethnic or racial box on the AMCAS that is often associated with URM status but they were not allowed to check the box specifying that they were applying with URM consideration. Would people feel cheated? Would that affect how adcoms view them as an applicant?

 

[deleted482591]

Really hilarious to see people use URM and white privilege in the same sentence.

Asian-Americans have neither privilege nor URM benefits so I guess the take away is **** them, amirite?

Hypocrisy

 

[aklvkk]

nope. There are many reasons why (racially) underrepresented minorities need to be actively recruited, many of which I think you can search on the forums if you want. That said, one of the main grievances I have against the admissions process is "negative action" (as opposed to affirmative action). I linked a page that describes it; the term essentially refers to society's setting higher bars set for Asian Americans than caucasians for not much of a good reason.

To quote:
"Doesn’t Affirmative Action for Other Minorities Result in Discrimination against AAPIs in University Admissions? No! Studies have shown that AAPIs are harmed by “negative action,” which is not the same as affirmative action. Negative action is when AAPIs are held to a higher standard than Caucasians, without any legitimate rationale. Negative action against AAPIs does not result from affirmative action for other minorities. “In fact, in cases of proven racial disparities between APA and White admission rates, the causes have been either stereotypical treatment of APA applicants or other preferences, such as that for alumni children, who tend to be predominantly White.” (Beyond Self Interest: Asian Pacific Americans toward a Community of Justice, Professors Gabriel Chin, Sumi Cho, Jerry Kang and Frank Wu). We can simultaneously reject negative action and embrace affirmative action!"

Another quote I'd like to introduce from the page:
"When Asian-Americans manage to do well, their success is used against others. Internally, it is used to erase the continuing poverty and social dislocation within Asian-American communities…External to our communities, our successes are used to deny racism and to put down other groups. African-Americans and Latinos and poor Whites are told, ‘look at those Asians--anyone can make it in this country if they really try.
- Mari Matsuda, “We Will Not Be Used,” Law Professor, University of Hawaii Law School"

I think this is more applicable to college admissions than medical school, but the rationale still stands.

 

[Cotterpin]

You're absurdly ignorant. In what white male fantasy-land do Asian-Americans even come close to the immense white privilege enjoyed by yourself?

Calm down. He didn't say "privilege," he said "disadvantage proportions." I think what he means is the actual proportion of people in the general population as compared to the proportion who are physicians. That's what the whole "under/overrepresented in medicine" thing is about. Asians are overrepresented.

 

[Germanicus89]

I feel that while these issues are important, they do not justify systematic selection of less academically capable applicants simply because of the color of their skin. We can should pick the most qualified applicants who are still interested in practicing in underserved communities. We should consider the challenges that all applicants have faced on a case by case basis instead of using race as a approximation. While having a diverse class is important, it should not come at the cost of discriminating against white applicants.

Quit whining. Suck it up.

 

[Lawpy]

Really? I suppose that the average stats at your school are a 3.4/28 then since, ya know, it "doesn't matter" after a certain minimum threshold. I would be fine with lowering admissions for URMs if you guys would just admit that there is a double standard. URMs are held to a lower standard then whites, and to a much lower standard than Asians.

You know what is absurd? People saying in quotes "doesn't matter" when no where in my post do I say the words. What is the point of a discussion when you just make **** up left and right about what other people are saying?

Damn. mimelim's dropping the hammer.

 

[md-2020]

You're absurdly ignorant. In what white male fantasy-land do Asian-Americans even come close to the immense white privilege enjoyed by yourself?

1. I'm Asian. 100% pure bred East Asian. Not that this should matter at all.
2. I'm absurdly ignorant? You're right, there are no disadvantaged whites in the USA. National studies like this must be lying to further the white agenda then.
http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html
https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

Whites make up the majority of America's population too, so 10% poverty among white >>>> in actual number.

3. You need to chill out, recognize that yes, as an ORM you do face tougher standards, and then either man the **** up or go home.

 

[efle]

You're absurdly ignorant. In what white male fantasy-land do Asian-Americans even come close to the immense white privilege enjoyed by yourself?

In every one of these threads the debate revolves around the wrong point. The goal of this whole process shouldn't be (and isn't) fairness to applicants. The aim should be for the greatest benefit to patients, and that is why URM policies make sense - because many minority communities do better with same-race doctors. It's the same logic that makes it reasonable to have heavily instate-favoring public schools - it isn't fair for some people to be born into more or less lucky states, and that doesn't matter.

 

[Lawpy]

In every one of these threads the debate revolves around the wrong point. The goal of this whole process shouldn't be (and isn't) fairness to applicants. The aim should be for the greatest benefit to patients, and that is why URM policies make sense - because many minority communities do better with same-race doctors. It's the same logic that makes it reasonable to have heavily instate-favoring public schools - it isn't fair for some people to be born into more or less lucky states, and that doesn't matter.

Moderators, please sticky.

 

[NotWayneBrady]

In every one of these threads the debate revolves around the wrong point. The goal of this whole process shouldn't be (and isn't) fairness to applicants. The aim should be for the greatest benefit to patients, and that is why URM policies make sense - because many minority communities do better with same-race doctors. It's the same logic that makes it reasonable to have heavily instate-favoring public schools - it isn't fair for some people to be born into more or less lucky states, and that doesn't matter.

+ 1. Medical schools don't owe you a thing. They exist to make physicians that will be able to effectively treat the entire U.S. population. Race plays into that, and no amount of "It's not fair" posts on public message boards will do anything to change that fact.

Deal with it.

 

[deleted482591]

many minority communities do better with same-race doctors.

And how exactly does this mean whites should get an advantage over Asian-American applicants? It doesn't.

 

[efle]

And how exactly does this mean whites should get an advantage over Asian-American applicants? It doesn't.

I agree. Admissions should be blind to race outside of URM races.

 

[deleted482591]

1. I'm Asian. 100% pure bred East Asian. Not that this should matter at all.
2. I'm absurdly ignorant? You're right, there are no disadvantaged whites in the USA. National studies like this must be lying to further the white agenda then.
http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html
https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

Whites make up the majority of America's population too, so 10% poverty among white >>>> in actual number.

3. You need to chill out, recognize that yes, as an ORM you do face tougher standards, and then either man the **** up or go home.

You clearly have no idea what intersectionality is.


Let me try being sarcastic in a stupid way: "you're right there are no disadvantaged Asians in the USA! They're all multimillionaires!"
Wow it's so easy to destroy your someone else's argument in this way when you say stupid things like this!


All things equal, whites enjoy the greatest advantage in college/medical school admissions as well as job applications CONSIDERING THE SINGLE DIMENSION OF RACE.

We're evaluating one variable here, that of race. Everyone is aware there's more than one variable at play in people's lives. But you clearly don't know how to think scientifically. HURR DURR let's change ALL the variables and reach a conclusion! It gonna get published in de NATURR

 

[ZedsDed]

I agree. Admissions should be blind to race outside of URM races.

I would prefer a "URM" yes or no checkbox on applications

 

[efle]

I would prefer a "URM" yes or no checkbox on applications

You'd still want to know what URM though

You clearly have no idea what intersectionality is.


Let me try being sarcastic in a stupid way: "you're right there are no disadvantaged Asians in the USA! They're all multimillionaires!"
Wow it's so easy to destroy your someone else's argument in this way when you say stupid things like this!


All things equal, whites enjoy the greatest advantage in college/medical school admissions as well as job applications CONSIDERING THE SINGLE DIMENSION OF RACE.

We're evaluating one variable here, that of race. Everyone is aware there's more than one variable at play in people's lives. But you clearly don't know how to think scientifically. HURR DURR let's change ALL the variables and reach a conclusion! It gonna get published in de NATURR

Did you even read his post? "yes, as an ORM you do face tougher standards"

 

[ZedsDed]

You'd still want to know what URM though



Did you even read his post? "yes, as an ORM you do face tougher standards"

You could have it broken down further by sub category. There is literally zero benefit to identifying someone as East Asian vs white.

 

[Silence in ER]

nope. There are many reasons why (racially) underrepresented minorities need to be actively recruited, many of which I think you can search on the forums if you want. That said, one of the main grievances I have against the admissions process is "negative action" (as opposed to affirmative action). I linked a page that describes it; the term essentially refers to society's setting higher bars set for Asian Americans than caucasians for not much of a good reason.

To quote:
"Doesn’t Affirmative Action for Other Minorities Result in Discrimination against AAPIs in University Admissions? No! Studies have shown that AAPIs are harmed by “negative action,” which is not the same as affirmative action. Negative action is when AAPIs are held to a higher standard than Caucasians, without any legitimate rationale. Negative action against AAPIs does not result from affirmative action for other minorities. “In fact, in cases of proven racial disparities between APA and White admission rates, the causes have been either stereotypical treatment of APA applicants or other preferences, such as that for alumni children, who tend to be predominantly White.” (Beyond Self Interest: Asian Pacific Americans toward a Community of Justice, Professors Gabriel Chin, Sumi Cho, Jerry Kang and Frank Wu). We can simultaneously reject negative action and embrace affirmative action!"

Another quote I'd like to introduce from the page:
"When Asian-Americans manage to do well, their success is used against others. Internally, it is used to erase the continuing poverty and social dislocation within Asian-American communities…External to our communities, our successes are used to deny racism and to put down other groups. African-Americans and Latinos and poor Whites are told, ‘look at those Asians--anyone can make it in this country if they really try.
- Mari Matsuda, “We Will Not Be Used,” Law Professor, University of Hawaii Law School"

I think this is more applicable to college admissions than medical school, but the rationale still stands.

wish I could star this.


And once again, in the realm of what everyone forgot , certain Asian subgroups- like the Hmong or Vietnamese immigrants get an affirmative action boost.

People seem to think asian immigrants are all Han Chinese or Indian.

Sigh.

This entire debate in predicated on nonsense.

 

[Silence in ER]

I would prefer a "URM" yes or no checkbox on applications

That's kind of problematic because it hides a lot of data. Africans immigrants are totally different ( and have a different applicant pool) than African Americans. Cuban immigrants are not the same as Venezuelan ones. And as I have pointed out, asians CAN be underrepresented too. I think the way we have it is the best.

 

[drsaurus]

As I keep reading this thread, I can't help but wonder how OP would feel about this conversation if he/she had experienced life on the other side of the Great White Wall of Privilege.

I agree. OP check your privilege.

 

[Chelsea FC]

That's kind of problematic because it hides a lot of data. Africans immigrants are totally different ( and have a different applicant pool) than African Americans. Cuban immigrants are not the same as Venezuelan ones. And as I have pointed out, asians CAN be underrepresented too. I think the way we have it is the best.

HMMM I thought I saw on here ADCOMs say AA and black immigrants are treated the same . Because the point is to have more people of color not to right the wrongs of institutionalized racism

 

[ZedsDed]

wish I could star this.


And once again, in the realm of whatever one forgot , certain Asian subgroups- like the Hmong or Vietnamese immigrants get an affirmative action boost.

People seem to think asian immigrants are all Han Chinese or Indian.

Sigh.

This entire debate in predicated on nonsense.

Most people mean "East Asian" when they say "Asian." Arabs/Iranians/Afghans are usually classified as Caucasian. Indians are usually just classified as "Asian" even though the Indian sub-continent is more ethnically diverse than most other nations. So yes, the labels are somewhat arbitrary and kind of dumb.

 

[ZedsDed]

That's kind of problematic because it hides a lot of data. Africans immigrants are totally different ( and have a different applicant pool) than African Americans. Cuban immigrants are not the same as Venezuelan ones. And as I have pointed out, asians CAN be underrepresented too. I think the way we have it is the best.

Hmong and Vietnamese are considered URM iirc. Cubans are not under-represented in medicine. As long as what "under-represented" means is clearly defined, there is no reason to parse out what kind of ORM a specific applicant represents.