DO Applicants

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SayVandalay

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I'm a DO who matched to a top-tier east coast program for the 2016 match. I would be more than happy to answer any questions via DM that any DO students have about specific programs, scores, chances...anything. I can only base answers on my experiences, scores, etc., but I'd be more than happy to help in these days leading up to applications.
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SayVandalay said:
I'm a DO who matched to a top-tier east coast program for the 2016 match. I would be more than happy to answer any questions via DM that any DO students have about specific programs, scores, chances...anything. I can only base answers on my experiences, scores, etc., but I'd be more than happy to help in these days leading up to applications.
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congrats on matching, I sent you a pm!
 
SayVandalay said:
I'm a DO who matched to a top-tier east coast program for the 2016 match. I would be more than happy to answer any questions via DM that any DO students have about specific programs, scores, chances...anything. I can only base answers on my experiences, scores, etc., but I'd be more than happy to help in these days leading up to applications.
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Congratulations. PM sent!
 
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SayVandalay said:
I'm a DO who matched to a top-tier east coast program for the 2016 match. I would be more than happy to answer any questions via DM that any DO students have about specific programs, scores, chances...anything. I can only base answers on my experiences, scores, etc., but I'd be more than happy to help in these days leading up to applications.
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Post your stats here so other DOs can see what it takes to match at a "top tier" program. Are you referring to a top ten or top 20 program?

Blade's Top ten:

1. B and W
2. MGH
3. Duke
4. Stanford
5. UCSF
6. NYC program (it changes from year to year)
7. Mayo
8. Penn
9. Northwestern
10. Michigan vs Wash U

Yes, I left BID off my list on purpose.
 
Doximity's Rankings:

1 Massachusetts General

2. UCSF

3. Brigham & Women’s

4. Stanford

5. Johns Hopkins

6. Duke

7. University of Pennsylvania

8. New York Presbyterian (Columbia)

9. Mayo Clinic (Rochester)

10. Wash U
 
East-coast DO school.
Stats: 259/260, 724/723, top 5 of class. No research experience at all (undergrad or med school). Lots of volunteer activities. Letters from community hospital IM/anesthesia, and outpatient pain. The program I matched to is on every one of those lists you listed above, and I interviewed at 4 others across each of the 3 lists.

Just want to comment that I think scores are shifted up about 10 points for DO's (i.e. in my opinion my 259 for a DO corresponds to a 249 for an MD student as far as interviews are concerned. Correct me if I'm wrong, just my estimate.). I don't think you necessarily need a 259 as a DO to match to a top 10-25 program, but you should be 245+. Again, just my experience.
 
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SayVandalay said:
East-coast DO school.
Stats: 259/260, 724/723, top 5 of class. No research experience at all (undergrad or med school). Lots of volunteer activities. Letters from community hospital IM/anesthesia, and outpatient pain. The program I matched to is on every one of those lists you listed above, and I interviewed at 4 others across each of the 3 lists.

Just want to comment that I think scores are shifted up about 10 points for DO's (i.e. in my opinion my 259 for a DO corresponds to a 249 for an MD student as far as interviews are concerned. Correct me if I'm wrong, just my estimate.). I don't think you necessarily need a 259 as a DO to match to a top 10-25 program, but you should be 245+. Again, just my experience.
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Well, you are solid on paper and I'm not surprised that you matched at a top 10-20 program. But, let's face it most aren't going to get a 250+ on Step 1.
 
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BLADEMDA said:
Well, you are solid on paper and I'm not surprised that you matched at a top 10-20 program. But, let's face it most aren't going to get a 250+ on Step 1.
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Correct. 250 is 1 SD above the mean (230). So naturally the majority of students (MD or DO) won't be able to exceed 250.
 
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BLADEMDA said:
Or, you have your own opinion on the program which isn't favorable.
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Haven't visited it and don't really have much of an opinion about it. It wasn't on my radar or for anyone I know on sdn or in real life.
 
2Fast2Des said:
Pretty much... Well by mid-levels in general
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I'm sure CCF isn't the only "CRNA run" residency program based on your opinion. That said, it is a good program with lots of high acuity cases. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant to the fact the residents receive good training there.


Cleveland Clinic has over 20 cardiac, thoracic, and vascular ORs in addition to over 50 general and pediatric ORs. We provide anesthesia for some of the sickest patients from all over the world and have ample exposure to a wide variety of surgical cases including solid organ transplants and complex heart and vascular cases. This is invaluable experience that can only be gained at a quaternary care center like Cleveland Clinic.

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/anesthesiology/for-medical-professionals/residency
 
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BLADEMDA said:
I'm sure CCF isn't the only "CRNA run" residency program based on your opinion. That said, it is a good program with lots of high acuity cases. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant to the fact the residents receive good training there.


Cleveland Clinic has over 20 cardiac, thoracic, and vascular ORs in addition to over 50 general and pediatric ORs. We provide anesthesia for some of the sickest patients from all over the world and have ample exposure to a wide variety of surgical cases including solid organ transplants and complex heart and vascular cases. This is invaluable experience that can only be gained at a quaternary care center like Cleveland Clinic.

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/anesthesiology/for-medical-professionals/residency
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Agree.

I don't know any specifics of the CCF program. But it has the potential to provide an excellent training experience. Residents need access to a high volume of complicated cases and sick patients.
 
CCF is ranked 15 on Doximity out of more than 100 residency programs. It's top 10-20% of programs on that metric alone and ranked as the number 2 hospital country and ranked #1 in cardiac related stuff for decades. Sort of hard to call it and "upper middle tier" program unless you're ideas are based on a lot of the elitist blah that is politics. The case volume is going to be hard to beat. The CRNA/SRNA thing is a concern but again, based on volume alone cases won't be an issue. Intraoperative teaching is a hit or miss from what I've heard. Research wise they've got great infrastructure. They even shrunk class sizes by 1/3 to make teaching better. Really my biggest issue with the program is that I'm not a fan of the deadspace that's Cleveland. But I'd be remiss to dismiss them based on that alone.

I would be interested to here what, other than perhaps name alone, is creating the distinction between "elite" programs and everyone else.
 
misteratoz said:
CCF is ranked 15 on Doximity out of more than 100 residency programs. It's top 10-20% of programs on that metric alone and ranked as the number 2 hospital country and ranked #1 in cardiac related stuff for decades. Sort of hard to call it and "upper middle tier" program unless you're ideas are based on a lot of the elitist blah that is politics. The case volume is going to be hard to beat. The CRNA/SRNA thing is a concern but again, based on volume alone cases won't be an issue. Intraoperative teaching is a hit or miss from what I've heard. Research wise they've got great infrastructure. They even shrunk class sizes by 1/3 to make teaching better. Really my biggest issue with the program is that I'm not a fan of the deadspace that's Cleveland. But I'd be remiss to dismiss them based on that alone.

I would be interested to here what, other than perhaps name alone, is creating the distinction between "elite" programs and everyone else.
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Cleveland clinic is very mid tier
If the case volume was any good they wouldn't need to shrink class sizes. That doesn't even make sense.
 
Ok that's a pretty laughable assertion. 62,000 anesthetics on site/year and you're worried about case volume? Assuming 5 cases/day/resident (which is not even possible), they have 30k cases left over. And it's a Quaternary referral center so it's hard to imagine what more you could want in terms of case acuity (except trauma, but they get that through rotating at another hospital). During my interview there, the residents basically said they had hit their number by midway through CA-2 year. Complex index cases in Peds were seen regularly. I forgot the precise reasoning behind why they shrunk their class size so don't quote me there. And again, it's a top tier hospital any way you slice it. And you also didn't really address the other things I said.
 
UCAfish said:
Can any DO's share their experience applying to programs in the West Coast/ South West
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Interviewed at AZ, Loma Linda, and U of UT. I'd be happy to train at any of them.
 
misteratoz said:
Ok that's a pretty laughable assertion. 62,000 anesthetics on site/year and you're worried about case volume? Assuming 5 cases/day/resident (which is not even possible), they have 30k cases left over. And it's a Quaternary referral center so it's hard to imagine what more you could want in terms of case acuity (except trauma, but they get that through rotating at another hospital). During my interview there, the residents basically said they had hit their number by midway through CA-2 year. Complex index cases in Peds were seen regularly. I forgot the precise reasoning behind why they shrunk their class size so don't quote me there. And again, it's a top tier hospital any way you slice it. And you also didn't really address the other things I said.
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Top tier hospital doesn't mean top tier residency. Also reputation doesn't imply good training. You're not a premed anymore, it's time to grow up
 
So you changed the goal posts.

1.) I already mentioned that according to doximity (and thus most physicians), it's consider a top tier program. It's 15 out of more than 130 so in the top 10-15% of residencies. So again, "solidly mid-tier" is as subjectively biased a statement as they come.

2.) You asked about caseload and I delivered. 62 K anesthetics/year + Quaternary referral center + Top hospital = Very complex, very extensive caseload, which addresses that concern.

3.) I am aware top hospital=/= top residency. However, it really helps. How many top residencies are not at top hospitals (especially surgically related ones)? Top residencies are at least partially about resources. You'll be hard pressed to find places with more resources. Being involved in Academics is just not an issue.

I think at that level, it's mainly about name and little else.

In any case, you clearly aren't a fan, and that's fine. It's not at the top of my rank list because of location. However, it's still a pretty great program.
 
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misteratoz said:
So you changed the goal posts.

1.) I already mentioned that according to doximity (and thus most physicians), it's consider a top tier program. It's 15 out of more than 130 so in the top 10-15% of residencies. So again, "solidly mid-tier" is as subjectively biased a statement as they come.

2.) You asked about caseload and I delivered. 62 K anesthetics/year + Quaternary referral center + Top hospital = Very complex, very extensive caseload, which addresses that concern.

3.) I am aware top hospital=/= top residency. However, it really helps. How many top residencies are not at top hospitals (especially surgically related ones)? Top residencies are at least partially about resources. You'll be hard pressed to find places with more resources. Being involved in Academics is just not an issue.

I think at that level, it's mainly about name and little else.

In any case, you clearly aren't a fan, and that's fine. It's not at the top of my rank list because of location. However, it's still a pretty great program.
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CCF is an upper mid tier program that accepts many Residents some with slightly better than average Step scores. Based on who they have accepted in the past CCF is not a top tier program. I think the training is excellent so if you are an average candidate or slightly better than average candidate CCF offers you the opportunity for outstanding clinical training in Cleveland Ohio. If you can put up with Cleveland and are just above average then strongly consider CCF on your rank list.
 
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BLADEMDA said:
CCF is an upper mid tier program that accepts many Residents some with slightly better than average Step scores. Based on who they have accepted in the past CCF is not a top tier program. I think the training is excellent so if you are an average candidate or slightly better than average candidate CCF offers you the opportunity for outstanding clinical training in Cleveland Ohio. If you can put up with Cleveland and are just above average then strongly consider CCF on your rank list.
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So basically DO applicants in the 235-245 range?
 
misteratoz said:
So you changed the goal posts.

1.) I already mentioned that according to doximity (and thus most physicians), it's consider a top tier program. It's 15 out of more than 130 so in the top 10-15% of residencies. So again, "solidly mid-tier" is as subjectively biased a statement as they come.
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Oh, please! The only place where you should read Doximity rankings is on your TP.

Unfortunately, there is no good data to rank these programs. Visit as many of them as possible, and use your common sense.
 
So the definition of what constitutes a good program is one which iscompetitive? A lot of that is based on location though. And common sense isn't helpful when there's little empiric data to go off. After visiting some top 10 programs I'm not that impressed honestly. But name matters unfortunately.
 
misteratoz said:
So the definition of what constitutes a good program is one which iscompetitive? A lot of that is based on location though. And common sense isn't helpful when there's little empiric data to go off. After visiting some top 10 programs I'm not that impressed honestly. But name matters unfortunately.
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Look - this conversation happens all the time here. Some people feel very, VERY strongly about their top 10 and its difficult to talk them out of the northeast Ivory Tower mentality. I think it's much more fluid than a hard number and there are a handful of really strong programs all over the country. There are so many facets to what constitutes a good program, and more importantly what aspects of a program are right for YOU. Things like makeup of the residency class (single vs married/family residents), the city it's in are intangibles that are tough to tease out. Interview at several places and decide where you feel the most comfortable - no job or fellowship or anyone really will give a damn at the end of the day what people on SDN say. Use whatever ranking you want - Blue Ridge NIH finding rankings, Doximity, SDN Top 10, Darts at a map... but in the end, make a decision that is right for you.

For the record, Cleveland probably doesn't get as much of a look from some applicants because it's in Cleveland. But I was very impressed with my fellowship interview up there (and so unimpressed with a couple other "top" programs mentioned around these parts) and I think it absolutely deserves a look, especially if you want to end up in the Midwest. My personal rule of thumb: if they aren't very nice or welcoming to you when you come to visit, how nice is it going to be once you are employed there?
 
Fair. The issue is, however, that it's kind of not important what I personally think. I'll be happy anywhere but my value to future employers will be largely based on a few things, including what residency program THEY think is best. And, whether I like it or not, I have to see it from their point of view. It's unnerving, to say the least, that there's so much of a discrepancy especially when others have pointed out there are few good metrics. But I'll take what I've seen here into account.
 
misteratoz said:
Fair. The issue is, however, that it's kind of not important what I personally think. I'll be happy anywhere but my value to future employers will be largely based on a few things, including what residency program THEY think is best. And, whether I like it or not, I have to see it from their point of view. It's unnerving, to say the least, that there's so much of a discrepancy especially when others have pointed out there are few good metrics. But I'll take what I've seen here into account.
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There are many top 20-25 programs which will help you become a great Anesthesiologist. CCF is such a program. But, like it or not top 10 programs attract a certain caliber of applicant which CCF fails to do. This means CCF is mid tier based on those metrics.

Can one obtain outstanding training at any number of residency programs which are mid tier? Absolutely. CCF is a great mid tier program because the training is on par with a top 10-15 level residency. I have great respect for its graduates and those who work there. If you can put up with Clevaland and match at CCF your training will be on par with most if not all of the supposed top 10 programs.
 
I've seen the doximity rankings. They're garbage.

wtf does 62k anesthetics even mean? Is that good? I don't know and I really don't care.
 
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Interesting that you'd rank the NYC programs as higher than Mayo though. Also interesting that Hopkins didn't make the list but Penn did.
 
misteratoz said:
Interesting that you'd rank the NYC programs as higher than Mayo though. Also interesting that Hopkins didn't make the list but Penn did.
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I spent a month at Hopkins when I was a resident. I was not impressed by the attendings that trained and stayed there, but didn't get to interact with the residents.

One thing to keep in mind, none of us can really tell you how one program compares to another, as we each only did residency once. Some that trained at program A, but worked as staff at programs B and C might be able to better judge those programs, but most of us just know our own residency, and get ideas about others based on our interactions with people from those places.
 
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misteratoz said:
Interesting that you'd rank the NYC programs as higher than Mayo though. Also interesting that Hopkins didn't make the list but Penn did.
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As posted previously any top 10 list should be taken with a grain of salt. Most top 15-18 programs view themselves as top 10.

Are you looking for just a "name" or good clinical training? CCF is a very good program. Is it better than Mayo or Hopkins? I have no idea but I can tell you the stats of accepted applicants are higher in some programs vs others.
 
BLADEMDA said:
As posted previously any top 10 list should be taken with a grain of salt. Most top 15-18 programs view themselves as top 10.

Are you looking for just a "name" or good clinical training? CCF is a very good program. Is it better than Mayo or Hopkins? I have no idea but I can tell you the stats of accepted applicants are higher in some programs vs others.
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I understand this. But as I mentioned previously, location is key to competitiveness. I'm sure UCSF is a great program, but a lot of the appeal is also the location. CCF may be a great place to train, but many don't consider the area a great place to be. Same with Mayo. And again, a lot of this is just name. If name didn't matter to headhunters, it wouldn't really matter to me.

I'm sure MGH and BWH are great, but if we're looking at strictly objective criteria, I doubt the training/opportunities are that much different than other top 10 programs. Lastly, as you mentioned, top programs are also top programs because of the caliber of applicants as much as the caliber of the program itself. So it's probably a self-fulfilling legacy too.
 
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