DO Applying to ACGME Surgery

[Plinko]

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I am curious to know what programs anyone is aware of that are ACGME accredited in General Surgery, DO friendly, and take the COMLEX in lieu of USMLE? I have a small list of such programs, but would like to expand my list if at all possible.

I only ask because I didn't take the USMLE Step 1 because the administrators at my school told me it wasn't needed. Only now, knee deep in the ERAS process, I have found that they were mistaken. I plan on taking USMLE Step 2 in three weeks, but doubt even those scores will be availabe for the Novembe 1st deadline. I have surveyed the DO programs in general surgery and I have not been all that impressed. From talking with students during my 4th year, it seems only about fifty percent of the DO programs are on par with even the lower tier ACGME programs. They all seem to be community based, do very low volume, and fill their days endlessly with Lap Choles, Breast Bxs, I&Ds, Hernias, and little else. Additionally, my interest in surgery is mostly trauma related, for which I would want to do a trauma fellowship. There is only one DO trauma fellowship in the US whereas there several allopathic ones. I'll throw some apps at a small list of the osteopathic programs that I consider to be the betters ones, but I will not have a chance to rotate through them, as their scheduling priority goes to their home med school and all spaces are full through the rest of winter, so I'm not holding my breath.

I have since decided to look at ER programs, another trauma related field. But I do not want to totally give up on General Surgery. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I don't trust my school advisors anymore so I feel like I'm flying blind at this point.

 

[NebelDO]

I am curious to know what programs anyone is aware of that are ACGME accredited in General Surgery, DO friendly, and take the COMLEX in lieu of USMLE? I have a small list of such programs, but would like to expand my list if at all possible.

I only ask because I didn't take the USMLE Step 1 because the administrators at my school told me it wasn't needed. Only now, knee deep in the ERAS process, I have found that they were mistaken. I plan on taking USMLE Step 2 in three weeks, but doubt even those scores will be availabe for the Novembe 1st deadline. I have surveyed the DO programs in general surgery and I have not been all that impressed. From talking with students during my 4th year, it seems only about fifty percent of the DO programs are on par with even the lower tier ACGME programs. They all seem to be community based, do very low volume, and fill their days endlessly with Lap Choles, Breast Bxs, I&Ds, Hernias, and little else. Additionally, my interest in surgery is mostly trauma related, for which I would want to do a trauma fellowship. There is only one DO trauma fellowship in the US whereas there several allopathic ones. I'll throw some apps at a small list of the osteopathic programs that I consider to be the betters ones, but I will not have a chance to rotate through them, as their scheduling priority goes to their home med school and all spaces are full through the rest of winter, so I'm not holding my breath.

I have since decided to look at ER programs, another trauma related field. But I do not want to totally give up on General Surgery. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I don't trust my school advisors anymore so I feel like I'm flying blind at this point.

whats up. i dont think there is a good answer to your question. Im applying for surgery as well but i took the usmle. i think that there will be alot of programs that will look at your score if its good.but i do think most would have wanted that usmle to kinda compare. at least you well have that step 2 which might help.remember to apply broadly and dont worry too much about not having it. there is not much you can do about it now.good luck

 

[DO_Surgeon]

I am curious to know what programs anyone is aware of that are ACGME accredited in General Surgery, DO friendly, and take the COMLEX in lieu of USMLE? I have a small list of such programs, but would like to expand my list if at all possible.

I only ask because I didn't take the USMLE Step 1 because the administrators at my school told me it wasn't needed. Only now, knee deep in the ERAS process, I have found that they were mistaken. I plan on taking USMLE Step 2 in three weeks, but doubt even those scores will be availabe for the Novembe 1st deadline. I have surveyed the DO programs in general surgery and I have not been all that impressed. From talking with students during my 4th year, it seems only about fifty percent of the DO programs are on par with even the lower tier ACGME programs. They all seem to be community based, do very low volume, and fill their days endlessly with Lap Choles, Breast Bxs, I&Ds, Hernias, and little else. Additionally, my interest in surgery is mostly trauma related, for which I would want to do a trauma fellowship. There is only one DO trauma fellowship in the US whereas there several allopathic ones. I'll throw some apps at a small list of the osteopathic programs that I consider to be the betters ones, but I will not have a chance to rotate through them, as their scheduling priority goes to their home med school and all spaces are full through the rest of winter, so I'm not holding my breath.

I have since decided to look at ER programs, another trauma related field. But I do not want to totally give up on General Surgery. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I don't trust my school advisors anymore so I feel like I'm flying blind at this point.

My advice would be get an USMLE score. Although many ACGME programs will "accept" the COMLEX in place of the USMLE your chances are greatly reduced. Surgery has gotten competitive again, so you would be competing with many MD's all with USMLE scores, so in order to compare apples with apples, you have to have a USMLE score as well. You are correct about many of the DO programs. They are small and have mainly bread and butter GS cases. Keep in mind so do many of the community allopathic programs. I rotated at two allopathic programs as a student and their days were pretty much filled with bread and butter as well. I am a PGY1 at Mercy in Des Moines, and feel that we do have the best DO program. We have our share of bread and butter, but also have big cases such as whipples, transplant, and colon resections, etc that many DO programs send their residents on out rotations to gain experience. We also have a fairly decent trauma service. Granted it is mainly blunt, being we are in the middle of Iowa, but it is on par with the Level 1 center across town. If you are interested in trauma, keep in mind that trauma fellowships are extremely easy to match into. Last year's match 60% of the positions went unfilled, so if you have a pulse and 5 years of GS, you should get into any program. You can match into ACGME trauma fellowships if you so desire after an AOA GS residency. There is a DO right now at Vandy and I spent some time with a trauma graduate from there and he told me that being a DO would not be an obstacle if trauma is what you desire. My advice, without taking the USMLE and scoring well on it, dont waste a lot of time, effort, and interviewing money applying to many ACGME programs because your chances will be small. Spend some of that time researching the various DO programs and see if any are a good fit for you. Good luck!

 

[mfrederi]

I can not recall the name right now of the residency, but there is a DO residency in California that was started by some DOs at Loma Linda that is very heavy into trauma and is said to be excellent.

 

[Plinko]

Thanks, guys. Especially, DO_Surgeon. Lots of useful information. A few final questions for you: if the the application deadline is November 1st, do you have any idea if the ACGME programs will look at my USMLE scores if they come in say two weeks late? Or, once the deadline passes is that it? If that is the case, I'm not sure I should fork over the $500 to take it. Also, any idea why Trauma is so open? I would have thought it would be more competitive, especially with CTS going downhill.

 

[DO_Surgeon]

Thanks, guys. Especially, DO_Surgeon. Lots of useful information. A few final questions for you: if the the application deadline is November 1st, do you have any idea if the ACGME programs will look at my USMLE scores if they come in say two weeks late? Or, once the deadline passes is that it? If that is the case, I'm not sure I should fork over the $500 to take it. Also, any idea why Trauma is so open? I would have thought it would be more competitive, especially with CTS going downhill.

To be honest and answer your question about the USMLE score...I don't know. I would guess if you can get them an USMLE score by your interview I would assume they would look at it. I would contact the programs you are interested in and ask. Why is trauma open, well this is my view as an intern and from someone who did two months of trauma/SICU at Maricopa Medical Center in Phoenix (Busy level 1 center) most of trauma is nonoperative. For many of us we went into to surgery to work with our hands and operate. Trauma for the most part is resusitation/stabalize, walk the patient to the CT scanner, followed by ortho or neurosurgery operating, then back to the SICU for management by the trauma attending. If you find critical care management interesting then trauma is great because you get the best of both worlds with an occasionaly case followed by ICU care. Trauma is not like what you see on TV, it is not guns blazing, IVs swinging, rushing to the OR for an emergent ex. lap or ED thoracotomy. It is a lot of babysitting for the ortho and neurosurgery services. Plus it is in house call. I would guess that would get hold and difficult as we all mature in age. I find trauma interesting because I like the ICU care. I am really hung up on CT surgery and hoping that things change in the next few years, otherwise I may consider trauma. If you want a DO friendly program...check out Maricopa. There are three DO's (PGYIV, PGYIII, and PGYI) right now. I had a great experience there and they handle a TON of trauma. Rumor had it when I was there, they might be getting a trauma fellowship down the road.

 

[fourthyear]

why is trauma less competetive? People don't want to work hard anymore - everyone wants a nice lifestyle (and it's hard to fit MVC's and GSW at 0200 into what anyone calls a nice lifestyle). Some places are making trauma into shiftwork and most places are offering extra pay for trauma call in order to accomodate this supply and demand issue.

 

[DO_Surgeon]

I can not recall the name right now of the residency, but there is a DO residency in California that was started by some DOs at Loma Linda that is very heavy into trauma and is said to be excellent.

The program name is Arrowhead. Look at the Western University website under their OPTI, I think you can find a link.

 

[LovelyRita]

The program name is Arrowhead. Look at the Western University website under their OPTI, I think you can find a link.

...if you're lucky! I spent about 15 minutes trying to get "info" off their "website" and was so disgusted that I won't even look into their program. These residency programs have GOT to get on the ball and get pertinent info onto a website. Oh wait. There is no pertinent info because each DO program I've looked into so far has some sort of screwy inbred sketchy issue going on. 🙄 😡

It's a public forum. I'm allowed to vent. Must keep on keepin on.