Do attendings ever admit they are wrong??

[TheCat]

Well I have thought it was very funny this year in general that not once did an attending pony up and admit that they were wrong or did not know something, especially if it was in front of residents. I am totally not the type to have to be right and argue either so I rarely am faced with these situations but nonetheless there are times when the attending says something dead wrong and I know differently so I bring it up-usually if i bring it up it means that it directly has to do with ruling in/out a cause for a pts problem. But not once have I ever heard an attending just admit they dont know or I am right-instead I always get the-"Why dont you look it up and tell us tom" even when I know darn well what I am saying is dead on-I am the one told to look it up. I dont know I dont have a great example I just find it comical that attendings will never say they dont know or anything like that-drives me mad the egos in medicine.

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[wook]

Well I have thought it was very funny this year in general that not once did an attending pony up and admit that they were wrong or did not know something, especially if it was in front of residents. I am totally not the type to have to be right and argue either so I rarely am faced with these situations but nonetheless there are times when the attending says something dead wrong and I know differently so I bring it up-usually if i bring it up it means that it directly has to do with ruling in/out a cause for a pts problem. But not once have I ever heard an attending just admit they dont know or I am right-instead I always get the-"Why dont you look it up and tell us tom" even when I know darn well what I am saying is dead on-I am the one told to look it up. I dont know I dont have a great example I just find it comical that attendings will never say they dont know or anything like that-drives me mad the egos in medicine.

I was fortunate in my rotations, as there were plenty of times when an attending would say, "I don't know", then "Why don't you look it up and let us know" would follow.

Wook

 

[Hurricane]

I was fortunate in my rotations, as there were plenty of times when an attending would say, "I don't know", then "Why don't you look it up and let us know" would follow.

Same here. And when there was a pharmacist on the team, they would often defer to him/her on drug questions.

There's no shame in acknowledging your limitations, IMO.

 

[boulux]

There's no shame in acknowledging your limitations, IMO.

Not only there is no shame in acknowledging your limitations, it is also the best way to prevent mistakes imo.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Well I have thought it was very funny this year in general that not once did an attending pony up and admit that they were wrong or did not know something, especially if it was in front of residents. I am totally not the type to have to be right and argue either so I rarely am faced with these situations but nonetheless there are times when the attending says something dead wrong and I know differently so I bring it up-usually if i bring it up it means that it directly has to do with ruling in/out a cause for a pts problem. But not once have I ever heard an attending just admit they dont know or I am right-instead I always get the-"Why dont you look it up and tell us tom" even when I know darn well what I am saying is dead on-I am the one told to look it up. I dont know I dont have a great example I just find it comical that attendings will never say they dont know or anything like that-drives me mad the egos in medicine.

I think most of the attendings dont even know they wrong, since they are almost never corrected by the students.

 

[Non-Trad DO]

😉 First of all, I can only remember a very few occasions when I thought the attending may have been wrong.
Secondly, I have seen many physicians defer to a pharmacist or a fellow for something but always reserve thier opinion in that situation.
Last, I can only rmember a few time when the attending was challenged by somebody, anybody, and that was always another attending but niether backed down from thier position with regard to whatever the medical dispute was.
Ususally, I suspect, that these situations are rare only because they usually do it out of ear shot of the students, residents, fellows...etc.

 

[durak]

😉 First of all, I can only remember a very few occasions when I thought the attending may have been wrong.
Secondly, I have seen many physicians defer to a pharmacist or a fellow for something but always reserve thier opinion in that situation.
Last, I can only rmember a few time when the attending was challenged by somebody, anybody, and that was always another attending but niether backed down from thier position with regard to whatever the medical dispute was.
Ususally, I suspect, that these situations are rare only because they usually do it out of ear shot of the students, residents, fellows...etc.

always confident, often wrong 🙂

 

[Medical123]

I had a medicine attending that would often admit that she needed to read up on some of the rare conditions that we would see at our institution However, I also found out very quickly that when she said that, that condition would become good pimp material for the next day's rounds!

 

[tupac_don]

Well I have thought it was very funny this year in general that not once did an attending pony up and admit that they were wrong or did not know something, especially if it was in front of residents. I am totally not the type to have to be right and argue either so I rarely am faced with these situations but nonetheless there are times when the attending says something dead wrong and I know differently so I bring it up-usually if i bring it up it means that it directly has to do with ruling in/out a cause for a pts problem. But not once have I ever heard an attending just admit they dont know or I am right-instead I always get the-"Why dont you look it up and tell us tom" even when I know darn well what I am saying is dead on-I am the one told to look it up. I dont know I dont have a great example I just find it comical that attendings will never say they dont know or anything like that-drives me mad the egos in medicine.

Yea that's pretty common. Although I can't speak for medicine rotations yet, but on pharmacy rotations, it was always, Look it up and tell us about it tommorow (if they were nice, if not, they would make you do a paper on that topic). So basically you learned to keep your mouth shut and not ask questions, or ask questions they are sure to know.

But also students can be vicious too. I know of a particular attending who would admit to being wrong, and they would be oh he doesn't know his stuff. So they also protect themselves that way. Trust me you will too.

And the way people are in general, they seldom admit their mistakes to people lower than them, usually mistakes are admitted when you are either forced to admit them b/c they are so blatant. Or you are admitting to someone higher up, and you are hoping honesty will carry the day. For some reason and I dont' know why, I guess ego/pride, people in general have a tough time admitting their mistakes, particularly if they are to admit it publicly. It just doesn't happen.

 

[Non-Trad DO]

always confident, often wrong 🙂

Do you think attendings are often wrong?

 

[durak]

Do you think attendings are often wrong?

of course they're often wrong. what the hell is malpractice for?

 

[Caffeinated]

One of the major difference I learned between Medicine and Surgery during 3rd year:

Medicine: If you don't know the answer, just say "I don't know." You will be called out if you lie or make something up just to look good.

Surgery: You will get more respect for lying or giving an incorrect answer with confidence than by admitting that you don't know something.

Which do you think is more dangerous: an internist who knows when they don't know or a surgeon who thinks confidence is more admirable than the truth?

 

[tupac_don]

One of the major difference I learned between Medicine and Surgery during 3rd year:

Medicine: If you don't know the answer, just say "I don't know." You will be called out if you lie or make something up just to look good.

Surgery: You will get more respect for lying or giving an incorrect answer with confidence than by admitting that you don't know something.

Which do you think is more dangerous: an internist who knows when they don't know or a surgeon who thinks confidence is more admirable than the truth?

That;s not what I heard from surgeons. I heard don't lie.

 

[mysophobe]

always confident, often wrong 🙂

The way I heard it is "Not always right, but never in doubt".

 

[sdnetrocks]

That;s not what I heard from surgeons. I heard don't lie.

I think what he means is that surgeons are more amenable to a best guess delivered confidently (even if it completely misses the mark) rather than meekly/proudly saying "I don't know", which would be more acceptable in internal medicine.

That's the flavor I get.

 

[cremaster2007]

I think it comes with the personality........most surgeons I know want you to be confident because if you are in a trauma you can't second guess what you decide to do or say "I need to go read up on that", but they want you to understand that if you are wrong you have to accept the consequences. In internal medicine they are more willing to accept the "I don't know" answer because they are going to pimp the hell out of you tomorrow about it. So rather than guess and waste the time of my attendings in both I think about it if I don't know it right away, and if after a few minutes I don't know I just confidently say I don't know that, in which case they either tell me the answer or tell me to read. I do know that the surgeons I've worked with said they like seeing some "fire" in people, or some "attitude", and that they don't like it when residents always let staff walk all over them..............ie some attendings say they are harder on other residents because they want that resident to stand up for themselves and show some confidence. I know there are a lot of attendings not like that, however, and standing up to some of them is a sure fire way to make the rest of your residency a severe pain in the ass

 

[a_ditchdoc]

I think what he means is that surgeons are more amenable to a best guess delivered confidently (even if it completely misses the mark) rather than meekly/proudly saying "I don't know", which would be more acceptable in internal medicine.

That's the flavor I get.

Of course, I had a surgeon on rounds call one of my fellow students out by saying something like "If you don't know something, sometimes it is best to keep your mouth shut."

I felt really bad for her, as she was one of the few that was brave enough to even attempt to answer his question, which he had repeatedly asked to be answered.

 

[Discobolus]

I corrected an attending once in the OR, of course the subject was the name of the band on the radio. He was super laid back (urology) so everything was cool, but the scrub tech and anesthesiologist got a good laugh.

 

[velo]

I corrected an attending once in the OR, of course the subject was the name of the band on the radio. He was super laid back (urology) so everything was cool, but the scrub tech and anesthesiologist got a good laugh.

As a first year I was shadowing a urologist in the OR. He was pimping me on some very basic anatomy because I was only a first year (that's the linea alba, these are the layers of the abdominal wall, that's the obturator nerve), and when he asked my what the function of the obturator was, I said to adduct the leg--he got adduct and abduct confused and said I was wrong. I explained that I was right and then, not thinking, added "its easy to get those confused." The second the words left my mouth I realized how condescending and wrong it sounded coming from an MSI to an attending...but it was too late.

He pimped me mercilessly for the rest of the case over stuff I had no clue about. I was put promptly in my place... 😳

 

[premedgeek]

why would anyone care if attending is wrong on some pimp question??? I would just keep it quiet unless it is negatively affecting patient care. 😳

 

[Adcadet]

Many of my medicine attendings are quick to say they don't know. I mean c'mon, how can they know everything about almost everything. That's why we have specialists and reference material.

On pimping, I've gotten many miles out of using the phrase "My understanding is that..." when I'm not sure, so if I'm wrong at least the attending knows that I have a good basic knowledge base. And if I'm right, the attending can expand on the underlying cause and launch into a discussion rather than just say "right" and make it look like a pimp. My internal medicine attendings like to ask questions and stimulate thinking, but generally don't want to appear to be pimping.

 

[Dr. V]

Well I found that most of the time when a student thought the attending was wrong it was because they lacked the experience/knowledge to truly understand the question. (not talking about new dosages that just came out yesterday etc, talking concepts DDX etc). Most of the time when an attending was challenged by a student it usually ended with the student saying "oh, I never thought about that part". Luckily for them our attendings for the most part were not malignant.

I can't count the times when I (silently thank God) didn't agree with the Attending only to find that I didn't understand the situation as thouroughly as I should. If I didn't figgure out the reason I was wrong immediately then "ah ha" moments usually hit me several months later after I had more experience 😱 😱

Diseases don't read books and there is a reason for Residency.

On the other hand, I always had great attendings that knew their stuff inside and out. On the rare occasions when they didn't know they didn't fake it and answered honestly. Some wanted you to guess because they wanted some idea of where you were starting from and the logic behind your guess, some said not to guess because if you guessed it correctly you probably don't know the concepts behind the answer and they were there to teach. That was attending dependant at our school, not specialty dependant.

I will also say the "it's my understanding" introduction to my answers worked well, along with "I don't understand why it is not X". Basically anything that lets them know you are not disputing what they say, just wondering why your ideas are not correct will usually get you a good explanation and a good clinical pearl for later.