Do current 'unwritten requirements' select for the wealthy?

[NotYou20]

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You know what else gives inherent advantages? Being a white male. And living in America. We can take any situation and say it has an advantage over any other situation, so where does it stop? I'll take it to the next level and say that being born gives you an advantage over those who were never born.

As for the millenials comments, people attack the millennial generation (which as a 20 something I'm assuming I'm a part of?) because overall you see people, especially those in the upper-middle class, playing the victim card all too often. Call it entitlement, call it being lazy, call it lack of work ethic, but I like to call it "Getting Softer". It all comes down to the observation that nowadays, people cry "woe is me" over having to work a part-time job in college, whine about their parents not buying them "the right color Beemer", etc. More often than not, we have lost our work ethic and believe that we are entitled to put in less work than those before us, and get more in return. Think of it in terms we can all understand; The kid who does poorly on his tests. Way back when, the kid would get his a$$ kicked, nowadays it becomes "the teacher's fault".

I haven't met anyone who actually complains about having to work in college. Pointing out that it makes things harder is not complaining. Maybe you've met people who really complain, in that case I agree with you

 

[whatever5]

Love this post OP it's so true. View attachment 201220


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I don't get it. People in the suburbs think there are people that live in abandoned homes?

 

[deleted688779]

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[DingoPingo]

There are so many good doctors out there that never had the hope to become one in the first place. I believe that, privileged or not, people discover whether medicine is for them sooner or later. You can keep checking those boxes off all you want until you're standing alone with a patient and you have to keep them from dying.

 

[Mansamusa]

I haven't met anyone who actually complains about having to work in college. Pointing out that it makes things harder is not complaining. Maybe you've met people who really complain, in that case I agree with you

@scrublyfe21
I complain that working part-time would only allow me to pay 6% of my yearly undergrad tuition, haha.

I just think older people are so disconnected to the reality of what younger generations are facing. Each generation is being asked to make greater sacrifices and jump through more hoops for the same or worse ROI than previous generations (like the fact that people now pay on average $30K for a degree that is no longer worth anything). Of course people are going to start becoming disinterested and start prioritizing happiness. It's not a lack of work ethic, so much as a reaction to seeing increasing barriers for no return. For most fields outside of medicine it's the choice between working hard for a crappy life plagued by debt or work less hard and end up more or less in the same position but with more time to enjoy life, haha

And that's where I'm at with my decision making with going to school. There is a very real chance that I will be less financially comfortable than a PA because of the debt burden. I'm more than willing to make the time/stress sacrifices necessary to become a MD but the idea that I could end up worse off than I would be if I took a less burdensome path to medicine gives me pause (especially since the benefits of being MD- clinical decision making ability, research, strong patient relationship- are becoming more difficult to maintain). If physicians are going to lose more and more financial benefits, then it needs to be made up in terms of quality of personal and professional life or people will leave. Which is why I think finances are the biggest disadvantage for non-wealthy students

 

[Instatewaiter]

• The millennial 'woe is me attitude': This is all because we are born in the century of social media. Ppl who I went to college with, that had similar competency or preparedness as me are now flying through Ibiza and what have you posting exotic foods and business trips. It hardly takes me a second before I start wondering what I did wrong that I am not nearly as successful. Yes, they work very hard but if I had the same network as them, I wouldn't be far away (high school environment was enough to prove this suspicion). Due to the openness and flauntiness with which my colleagues share their life now, it is very evident of the background they came from. The sad part is that because our school systems have always allowed us poor and rich to be in the same proximity, we have bought in the delusion that our lives should be similar if only academics are compared, or that we should be superior if we were smarter. It isn't true and when you learn about a kid who was just average or nearly below average in hs, get a consulting job straight out of college, you just know that the game was quite different from the very beginning. This is NOT A MILLENIAL thing. If we had facebook in the 1950s or whatever, we all would have had the same type of harrowing thinking and our concentration wouldn't be on the work we are given but what others are doing.
• Shadowing: Take it from someone who has tried for 2 consecutive years to try getting shadowing and has each and every time been denied. This is a crucial part of the application, not for the sake of the application, but to form our opinions of what doctors do and where things can be done differently. It is unfair-simple and pure as that, but I don't consider it a right so I don't care. You think I just tried? Nay, I cold called, sent emails, and got referred to several manager voice message boxes only to be ignored and never responded back to. Thankfully, I am creative and instead drive an hour for volunteering to get this. Meanwhile, plenty of friends who have parents in the 'know' have things set during the last minute to fill their hours. We all know that.

Basically, don't complain. I have met a variety of people, from low to high. Both types have offended me purposely and have never had the spine to apologize. Rich or poor, I want medical admissions to choose individuals that know how to treat people right. I know that as someone not with monetary back-up, I am in the grave situation of sacrificing my education and thus distancing my chances as the more years I am out of school the more my academic potential is up for questioning. However, what's done is done...no point in putting the finger on the masses the system favors and neither do I think the system should fill its seats with only low SES. Hopefully, when I become a physician, I will help someone under my circumstance. That is all I can do and that is all I want to do.

The world is a lot harsher than this Spinach, just keep up the good work and when you cross this barrier in your life, I know your merit will be your torch.

I think this post serves nicely as an exemplar of why people in my generation view millenials as lazy, entitled, self important, and whiny. But that's just my opinion.

 

[ditritium monoxide]

I also noticed this. Very weird.

Not really. African immigrants from certain countries (Nigeria, Kenya) tend to be very wealthy in the U.S.

 

[Dr. Death]

My grandparents generation: See 30 of your buddies get blown to smithereens on D-Day, get half your face blown off, come home work on a farm for 50 years and pay your kids through college so they can have a better life than you. Not complaining the whole way.

Millennial generation: Complain about everything, expect everything to be handed to you, complain about the things that are handed to you, take the easy way out, blame failures and inadequacies on others, society, etc.

Millennials want respect? Quit complaining and get your ass to work


Obviously unwritten requirements select for the wealthy. And wealth often selects for intelligence. You don't often find highly intelligent people working crappy low paying jobs because they realized that they had the potential for something better and worked their way up the social ladder. Intelligence and hard work breed wealth and wealth breeds more wealth.

 

[Mad Jack]

Of course admissions standards favor the wealthy. Everything in life favors the wealthy, it's pretty much how the world has worked since we stepped out of caves and will continue to work for as long as humanity exists. If wealth didn't give people an advantage, there would be no point to currency even existing.

It is definitely an unfortunate fact but luckily medical schools at least recognize this to some extent. It is the reason why minorities and those of us from lower class backgrounds are given some wiggle room when it comes to these requirements. Without posting my stats, I'll tell you that in the context of a "typical" white applicant, they are far below average and would be tossed in the insta-reject pile. But for those that dig into it a little bit and look past the raw scores, they are ultimately impressed because of my status as a first generation college student who worked for everything they have; 1 DO acceptance and 2 MD interviews offered which I chose not to attend.

I also notice something I like to refer to as "nth Generation Syndrome"; A pretty significant number of students from wealthy backgrounds end up wasting all of their opportunities and end up living a lower middle class lifestyle once their parents cut them off, while there are a ton of poorer students right there to replace them. This is especially common amongst "millenials", but you can see it all over the place; immigrants come to America--> work hard for success--> have kids--> work hard for success--> repeat "n" amount of times--> eventually you get a generation who feels entitled and that work ethic disappears. Whether it is the 1st or 10th generation doesn't matter, it eventually happens.

EDIT: This is obviously n=1, but the richest student in my graduating class got rejected from medical and dental school for the past 2 cycles, and has "played the game" since day 1 of freshman year.

I actually agree with your n generation theory- it's a big part of why I believe the children of immigrants are far more successful than the children of typical middle-class America. They're so separated from hard work and what it means to build yourself up from nothing that they feel entitled to simply have it better than their parents.

 

[Chelsea FC]

I actually agree with your n generation theory- it's a big part of why I believe the children of immigrants are far more successful than the children of typical middle-class America. They're so separated from hard work and what it means to build yourself up from nothing that they feel entitled to simply have it better than their parents.

As a immigrant from a very poor 3rd world country I can share a little insight on why immigrants do better. I honestly think we just have a different prospective on life, I now live in a dirt poor area of Brooklyn with a high murder rate and a 10% college level education population and I still find this area full of opportunities and find the common american are generally blind to the bounties of opportunities that are available. We see this as a chance to obtain something that was unobtainable in the past and we work twice as much to achieve it. We also feel we have to represent our home country well so when I do a exam I am not only doing it for my benefit but I am also representing my country of birth.. Basically when I hear people say if you can make it in New York you can make it anywhere I laugh because its pretty easy to make it here compare to where I came from

 

[Petrichor1]

I think this post serves nicely as an exemplar of why people in my generation view millenials as lazy, entitled, self important, and whiny. But that's just my opinion.

My grandparents generation: See 30 of your buddies get blown to smithereens on D-Day, get half your face blown off, come home work on a farm for 50 years and pay your kids through college so they can have a better life than you. Not complaining the whole way.

Millennial generation: Complain about everything, expect everything to be handed to you, complain about the things that are handed to you, take the easy way out, blame failures and inadequacies on others, society, etc.

Millennials want respect? Quit complaining and get your ass to work


Obviously unwritten requirements select for the wealthy. And wealth often selects for intelligence. You don't often find highly intelligent people working crappy low paying jobs because they realized that they had the potential for something better and worked their way up the social ladder. Intelligence and hard work breed wealth and wealth breeds more wealth.

Hey chill guys...the older generation isn't as innocent and blameless as you like to make it seen. An example is of the stuff we millenials are dealing today, our birth didn't create that in merely 20 years haha. No one is complaining about hardship...I only pointed an explanation for why many of us have short attention span for the "be happy with current moment" banner. Let's just say that 1/2 of our lives thus far has been seeing our parents struggle through recession and having a college degree considered the diploma mill while costing all of us a fortune. Could you give us a break here? We're only in our 20s and getting a job with our diplomas is still a circus show, without it it's a gamble and it's not like everyone of us is Mark Zuckerburg in the making.

 

[Mad Jack]

Hey chill guys...the older generation isn't as innocent and blameless as you like to make it seen. An example is of the stuff we millenials are dealing today, our birth didn't create that in merely 20 years haha. No one is complaining about hardship...I only pointed an explanation for why many of us have short attention span for the "be happy with current moment" banner. Let's just say that 1/2 of our lives thus far has been seeing our parents struggle through recession and having a college degree considered the diploma mill while costing all of us a fortune. Could you give us a break here? We're only in our 20s and getting a job with our diplomas is still a circus show.

You didn't have to fight through WW II, Korea, or Vietnam. You have more resources than any previous generation has ever had at their disposal. You have technology your forebears could not even dream of. The recession was no Great Depression, school can be affordable if you go to state schools, and... I'll just stop.

Truthfully millenials have it pretty okay overall. Less of you/us will have to work performing hard labor, none of us will have to be drafted to fight in a war, none of us will know the hardship of a true depression.

I will say the Boomers are worse though. They are actually the worst generation.

 

[Petrichor1]

You didn't have to fight through WW II, Korea, or Vietnam. You have more resources than any previous generation has ever had at their disposal. You have technology your forebears could not even dream of. The recession was no Great Depression, school can be affordable if you go to state schools, and... I'll just stop.

Truthfully millenials have it pretty okay overall. Less of you/us will have to work performing hard labor, none of us will have to be drafted to fight in a war, none of us will know the hardship of a true depression.

I will say the Boomers are worse though. They are actually the worst generation.

lol man we have many resources. I'm very fortunate and so are you. But I think this "millenials" are this and that is really misleading. We are a very productive and intelligent group due to the technologically advance era we are in. We really deserve more credit than what previous generations are spewing on us. Granted, we can't compare to the hard time in the mid and early 1900s, and arguing through that lens is not proper. I doubt you and anyone on this board is that old, so even I can argue that way if 1970s or 80s person was acting immature.

 

[Mad Jack]

lol man we have many resources. I'm very fortunate and so are you. But I think this "millenials" are this and that is really misleading. We are a very productive and intelligent group due to the technologically advance era we are in. We really deserve more credit than what previous generations are spewing on us. Granted, we can't compare to the hard time in the mid and early 1900s, and arguing through that lens is not proper. I doubt you and anyone on this board is that old, so even I can argue that way if 1970s or 80s person was acting immature.

I'm just sayin' it ain't so bad. And millenials really are the whiniest generation in history- have you seen some of the nonsense going on on college campuses lately? Plus the whole entitlement thing- how many people do you know that expect to earn more than the national median household income? I'd bet damn near everyone you know.

 

[Chelsea FC]

I dont mind that americans are whiny . I actually think its a good thing, the service you get is much better because you know if you slip up an american will rip you a new one. In countries where people dont whine as much people slack off more (over generalizing here)

 

[Mad Jack]

I dont mind that americans are whiny . I actually think its a good thing, the service you get is much better because you know if you slip up an american will rip you a new one. In countries where people dont whine as much people slack off more (over generalizing here)

This is true- America does have some of the best customer service in the world. Go to a place like the Philippines or Poland, where customers are treated like an annoyance to be tolerated before they hand you their money, and you can really see a difference.

 

[Mansamusa]

I'm just sayin' it ain't so bad. And millenials really are the whiniest generation in history- have you seen some of the nonsense going on on college campuses lately? Plus the whole entitlement thing- how many people do you know that expect to earn more than the national median household income? I'd bet damn near everyone you know.

The cost of living has shot up so much, which I think is one of the reasons why people are so upset. The median household income used to, and should, provide a comfortable living. It no longer does- so of course people expect to make more than that. I'm a big supporter of creating rent controls and affordable housing and I think that would solve many problems (I also live in NY, so this problem is a lot more prominent here). Health, education, and rent are rising faster than inflation while incomes are not going up. People have valid reasons to be angry

 

[Mad Jack]

The cost of living has shot up so much, which I think is one of the reasons why people are so upset. The median household income used to, and should, provide a comfortable living. It no longer does- so of course people expect to make more than that. I'm a big supporter of creating rent controls and affordable housing and I think that would solve many problems (I also live in NY, so this problem is a lot more prominent here). Health, education, and rent are rising faster than inflation while incomes are not going up. People have valid reasons to be angry

There is not enough room to put people in NYC, it's a damn island surrounded by packed boroughs. A better way to approach it would simply be to let the market price people out of the city so that people spread out to less expensive locales. I mean, you can't just expect to live in the 8th most expensive city on the planet and not expect to pay out the nose for the privilege.

 

[Chelsea FC]

There is not enough room to put people in NYC, it's a damn island surrounded by packed boroughs. A better way to approach it would simply be to let the market price people out of the city so that people spread out to less expensive locales. I mean, you can't just expect to live in the 8th most expensive city on the planet and not expect to pay out the nose for the privilege.

I agree with this and hate it at the same time. Some areas of brooklyn I know people lived there their entire lives. Its not just a address to them its their home, their heritage, the people who lived there gave that area its own characteristic it own unique flavor that is integrated in NYC history. Why the hell the people who helped build this city be priced out of their homes because rich mostly white people think certain Brooklyn neighborhoods is now hip and move in like droves, I get the anger but its the market so while I get the anger you cant do anything about it thats the free market

 

[Petrichor1]

There is not enough room to put people in NYC, it's a damn island surrounded by packed boroughs. A better way to approach it would simply be to let the market price people out of the city so that people spread out to less expensive locales. I mean, you can't just expect to live in the 8th most expensive city on the planet and not expect to pay out the nose for the privilege.

ny is expensive as ever. Went to their mall one time and a $5-8 cloth was worth $30-100. I seriously thought about buying the merchandise from my city and selling it there haha

 

[Mansamusa]

There is not enough room to put people in NYC, it's a damn island surrounded by packed boroughs. A better way to approach it would simply be to let the market price people out of the city so that people spread out to less expensive locales. I mean, you can't just expect to live in the 8th most expensive city on the planet and not expect to pay out the nose for the privilege.

That kind of is what is happening and people are being priced out of the neighborhoods where they grew up. Then lower-income people start commuting farther and farther to work because the jobs are in the city. Then they get more disgruntled and become angry that they aren't making more. Then people call them entitled rather than understandably angry. Markets don't work for everything and most cities are on this track to start increasing and increasing rent. Look at NOLA now. Young people decided that it's a good place to live and they are going to price out all native residents until it becomes so expensive that young people start moving to another city and destroy the market there

 

[Lawpy]

Interesting insight @Spinach Dip and others in this thread. Out of curiosity, would you consider moving up the socioeconomic ladder possible for anyone? Perhaps not in the current generation, but working hard to ensure success of your children and future descendants etc. to allow for a generational movement towards the top 1%

Or is this fundamentally impossible because of inherent biases in society? With social networking becoming universal online, it would theoretically be possible for anyone to move up the socioeconomic ladder easily. The fact that it doesn't seem to happen suggests that the intrinsic biases are too strong to be overcome. Is that the case?

 

[Mad Jack]

Interesting insight @Spinach Dip and others in this thread. Out of curiosity, would you consider moving up the socioeconomic ladder possible for anyone? Perhaps not in the current generation, but working hard to ensure success of your children and future descendants etc. to allow for a generational movement towards the top 1%

Or is this fundamentally impossible because of inherent biases in society? With social networking becoming universal online, it would theoretically be possible for anyone to move up the socioeconomic ladder easily. The fact that it doesn't seem to happen suggests that the intrinsic biases are too strong to be overcome. Is that the case?

I went from dirt poor to a soon-to-be physician. It's possible to move up.

 

[Mad Jack]

That kind of is what is happening and people are being priced out of the neighborhoods where they grew up. Then lower-income people start commuting farther and farther to work because the jobs are in the city. Then they get more disgruntled and become angry that they aren't making more. Then people call them entitled rather than understandably angry. Markets don't work for everything and most cities are on this track to start increasing and increasing rent. Look at NOLA now. Young people decided that it's a good place to live and they are going to price out all native residents until it becomes so expensive that young people start moving to another city and destroy the market there

There's only so many young people to go around, and cities tend to go through cycles of popularity and disdain. If NY eventually develops a reputation for being the sort of place no young person can move to and COL gets too great, it will age, then decline, then the cycle will begin anew. Things don't just stay static, sometimes you don't get to live where you grew up and you've got to make your own way if you want a better life for yourself.

 

[Chelsea FC]

I dont believe in the American Dream and sick and tired of people telling me that im living it. But I for one going to make sure my kids are better off than me.

 

[Mansamusa]

Interesting insight @Spinach Dip and others in this thread. Out of curiosity, would you consider moving up the socioeconomic ladder possible for anyone? Perhaps not in the current generation, but working hard to ensure success of your children and future descendants etc. to allow for a generational movement towards the top 1%

Or is this fundamentally impossible because of inherent biases in society? With social networking becoming universal online, it would theoretically be possible for anyone to move up the socioeconomic ladder easily. The fact that it doesn't seem to happen suggests that the intrinsic biases are too strong to be overcome. Is that the case?

I actually talked about this with one of my interviewers. She is a OB/Gyn for underserved patients and she was talking about how she has no idea how/if she will be able to help her 3 kids go to school because she is barely able to make ends meet while paying off her school loans. It's unclear if she will move up and it's unclear if I will move up (but I'm optimistic)

But I think there are careers like PA, NP, computer science, finance, etc where the buy-in is low and the payout good. Those people will definitely be able to move up the ladder and provide a good life for their kids. It's definitely possible, but requires more forethought and/or creativity. Actually, my dad made over $100K for the first time last year and he only has a hs degree. He started out in a service job at $30K when I was born and he worked his way up since (and his company still hires entry service people out of hs, so other people can follow his path). So there are jobs like that still out there, but they are becoming more rare.

 

[eteshoe]

I dont believe in the American Dream and sick and tired of people telling me that im living it. But I for one going to make sure my kids are better off than me.

Gotta agree, the whole "American Dream" thing sold to immigrants (and citizens) has definitely changed or maybe it was just Hollywood all along.

 

[Dr. Death]

Gotta agree, the whole "American Dream" thing sold to immigrants (and citizens) has definitely changed or maybe it was just Hollywood all along.

Depends where you came from lol. My in laws left Venezuela, where everything is regulated to the point that you can only buy a certain # of bars of soap per year and the grocery stores are usually sold out of food.

 

[eteshoe]

Depends where you came from lol. My in laws left Venezuela, where everything is regulated to the point that you can only buy a certain # of bars of soap per year and the grocery stores are usually sold out of food.

Now that sucks and you're right

 

[Doudline]

Interesting insight @Spinach Dip and others in this thread. Out of curiosity, would you consider moving up the socioeconomic ladder possible for anyone? Perhaps not in the current generation, but working hard to ensure success of your children and future descendants etc. to allow for a generational movement towards the top 1%

Or is this fundamentally impossible because of inherent biases in society? With social networking becoming universal online, it would theoretically be possible for anyone to move up the socioeconomic ladder easily. The fact that it doesn't seem to happen suggests that the intrinsic biases are too strong to be overcome. Is that the case?

The question is easily answered by looking at social mobility charts.
We used to place at the top, and now a dozen countries outpace us, a number that grows every year.

Would help if the average real income had grown in the last four decades, and if we had a remotely respectable social safety net.

 

[Petrichor1]

another point is the increased standard of living in most countries we consider as "developing". I would say that with globalization, people are earning nearly as much in big cities there as here. Or, there are ways around to opening businesses pretty easily with little restrictions. Ppl usually are able to work round the clock and rack up a lot of money there now and the rate is being compared to the USD so the cheap deals we tourists often believe to be in the countries may now be getting pricier because everything is relative to the USD.

 

[Spinach Dip]

Interesting insight @Spinach Dip and others in this thread. Out of curiosity, would you consider moving up the socioeconomic ladder possible for anyone? Perhaps not in the current generation, but working hard to ensure success of your children and future descendants etc. to allow for a generational movement towards the top 1%

Or is this fundamentally impossible because of inherent biases in society? With social networking becoming universal online, it would theoretically be possible for anyone to move up the socioeconomic ladder easily. The fact that it doesn't seem to happen suggests that the intrinsic biases are too strong to be overcome. Is that the case?

The "American Dream" as understood by my parents and grandparents does not exist in the current day. 3/4 of my grandparents never even finished highschool, yet were able to raise families and purchase homes and 1 of them even had a retirement account when he hit his 60's.

In this country, the COL has been going up while wages have been highly stagnant. What was minimum wage when the term "American Dream" was coined could support a family. Now it can hardly pay for rent and taxes in most cities across the nation.

Yet I did not start this thread to whine about the fact that I didn't even have a gameboy until my uncle was sent to county for a drug charge and grandma assumed he wouldn't miss it. (He didn't). I posted this thread to bring to attention the fact that the meritocratic assumption (which is widespread in this country, but certainly includes med school admissions) is based on faulty logic.

What the general adcom considers "merits" (research, volunteering, shadowing, etc) are things which are FAR more available to the upper class. Ergo, in an effort to make medicine a meritocracy, they have actually given rise to a plutocracy.


Of course a few from the lower classes make it in. There are always exceptions and social mobility DOES exist upon occasion. (And those who make it should be honored for their accomplishments.) But for those who start with nothing, it is much harder if only for the reason that they don't have an independently wealthy adult holding their hand and giving them coaching from day 1.

 

[deleted480308]

The "American Dream" as understood by my parents and grandparents does not exist in the current day. 3/4 of my grandparents never even finished highschool, yet were able to raise families and purchase homes and 1 of them even had a retirement account when he hit his 60's.

In this country, the COL has been going up while wages have been highly stagnant. What was minimum wage when the term "American Dream" was coined could support a family. Now it can hardly pay for rent and taxes in most cities across the nation.

Yet I did not start this thread to whine about the fact that I didn't even have a gameboy until my uncle was sent to county for a drug charge and grandma assumed he wouldn't miss it. (He didn't). I posted this thread to bring to attention the fact that the meritocratic assumption (which is widespread in this country, but certainly includes med school admissions) is based on faulty logic.

What the general adcom considers "merits" (research, volunteering, shadowing, etc) are things which are FAR more available to the upper class. Ergo, in an effort to make medicine a meritocracy, they have actually given rise to a plutocracy.


Of course a few from the lower classes make it in. There are always exceptions and social mobility DOES exist upon occasion. (And those who make it should be honored for their accomplishments.) But for those who start with nothing, it is much harder if only for the reason that they don't have an independently wealthy adult holding their hand and giving them coaching from day 1.

Social moility is huge....I had another discussion on here where we spent a lot of time discussing statistics by quintiles of income and those growing up in the lowest quintiles had bery good chances of moving up in quintiles and those in the upper upper quintiles had big chances of moving down. There is a lot of fluidity in the individuals making up those quintiles

 

[Nietzschelover]

What the general adcom considers "merits" (research, volunteering, shadowing, etc) are things which are FAR more available to the upper class. Ergo, in an effort to make medicine a meritocracy, they have actually given rise to a plutocracy.

Very insightful stuff. All the extra hoops thought to possibly level the playing field really have the effect of ensuring that a tilted field remains very much in place.

This is far from the only example, but children of physicians have immeasurable advantages, including very concrete advantages like having virtually unlimited access to shadowing opportunities.... to even more powerful social inheritance dynamics where a child even before born is tracking without a second thought for elite educational options and any and all extra supports to ensure that said child stays on track. The impact/value of being raised in environments where certain levels of success are presumed and even pre-presumed can't be underestimated.

No coincidence that in the second post in this whole thread @sb247 wrote: "One of the reasons I work so hard is to give my kids an edge over other kids."

 

[deleted480308]

Very insightful stuff. All the extra hoops thought to possibly level the playing field really have the effect of ensuring that a tilted field remains very much in place.

This is far from the only example, but children of physicians have immeasurable advantages, including very concrete advantages like having virtually unlimited access to shadowing opportunities.... to even more powerful social inheritance dynamics where a child even before born is tracking without a second thought for elite educational options and any and all extra supports to ensure that said child stays on track. The impact/value of being raised in environments where certain levels of success are presumed and even pre-presumed can't be underestimated.

No coincidence that in the second post in this whole thread @sb247 wrote: "One of the reasons I work so hard is to give my kids an edge over other kids."

Yep, neither of my grandfathers finished high school and both my parent's left home with less than $20 in their pocket. They kicked their butts to work for us and pushed us to achieve professionally/academically and it was hard because we were still of very modest means but my siblings and I are all at least bachelors graduates in good fields. Our kids will all have a much easier time than my grandparents did...we can all change our kids lives ad make them easier than ours were, and it's on us to do so

 

[Lucca]

Depends where you came from lol. My in laws left Venezuela, where everything is regulated to the point that you can only buy a certain # of bars of soap per year and the grocery stores are usually sold out of food.

I'm from Venezuela and that's not even the worst part...the lines for the grocery store are 4-6 hours long now. Some even longer in the bigger cities. You can't leave your house at night in Caracas or Maracaibo without a weapon and a group and a good knowledge of which gang controls which territory. When were there we carry around some money and a cellphone that isn't really the one we use (like some random old blackberry) so that when - not if - we are mugged while moving around the city we can give the thieves something because if you don't have anything they will beat you up for being poor or for hiding something. The cities are really bad in Venezuela right now. There are other areas that are less bad and actually livable (like the Falcon peninsula is pretty okay, i haven't been to the mainland in 4 years because **** that).

That being said, I absolutely understand the anger my generation feels towards the inequity in this country. Just because others have it and have had it harder than you doesn't mean there are no problems to be fixed and everything is fine. Wages haven't risen significantly to reflect profits and increased productivity of all workers (thanks in part to the new, cheaper technology that fuels 21st century productivity), most people are expected to work for pennis to have the chance to maybe work for some money after they graduate, most college degrees don't mean anything any more in terms of market value and the ones that do are becoming more and more competitive to obtain and the job markets are becoming more and more saturated. World governments do little and ours does less to respond to climate change, the single largest existential crisis facing Mankind right now. The poor in this country have never had less mobility and faced more threats to their livelihood than right now (being priced out of gentrified neighborhoods in places where they have lived and worked for generations, unable to afford schooling, unable to afford higher education, unable to afford healthy food, unable to afford proper healthcare etc egg). The "micro aggression" culture on campus isn't some new fangled millennial gripe. In the 60s/70s the same folks who went off to Vietnam and came back and went to college were pissed off about how black people were treated in this country. 70s feminists even advocated that to be a lesbian was to practice feminism. What does that even mean? There were decades before ours far more politically radical. Millenils are tame compared to the long arc of history, the idea that "political outrage on campuses for these small theoretical constructs is dumb" is not new, is ridiculous and ignorant of past periods of human history.

Also, it's not as if we stopped fighting wars after Vietnam. The millennial generation fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, the two wars that have produced the highest incidences of PTSD and other traumatic stress disorders among its participants since Vietnam when PTSD was acknowledged as a thing that happened. The rhetorical notion used here is: "a generation is more valuable if it fights a protracted major conflict in the name of our country" is absurd. Even then, our generation fought two. There was no draft but there were multiple re deployments among a smaller fighting force. They went to war and they are part of our generation, as someone who lives in a state that likes to send its sons to the military, many of them were my friends and the family of my friends. Personally I think it's really myopic to include the "whiners" who didn't choose to join the effort in a generation but not the people who, like generations before them, in fact did.

By the way do you know what the WW2 generation and the government told the military medical branch and Vietnam veterans when they argued that soldiers were suffering from mental disorders related to the trauma of the war? They called them a bunch of entitled whiners that needed to get over it. A real soldier, especially an officer, didn't need someone's help to get over war, they just did it. Why couldn't they just get with the program?

There is good reason to be dissatisfied with the status quo. People should be making more money than they are, wealth shouldn't be as concentrated as it is. People should be able to get an emergency surgery and not worry about how they will feed their family afterwards. People should be angry that institutionalized violence against minorities still exists. People should try to reform their character so that they can include and not exclude others from society.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I'm from Venezuela and that's not even the worst part...the lines for the grocery store are 4-6 hours long now. Some even longer in the bigger cities. You can't leave your house at night in Caracas or Maracaibo without a weapon and a group and a good knowledge of which gang controls which territory. When were there we carry around some money and a cellphone that isn't really the one we use (like some random old blackberry) so that when - not if - we are mugged while moving around the city we can give the thieves something because if you don't have anything they will beat you up for being poor or for hiding something. The cities are really bad in Venezuela right now. There are other areas that are less bad and actually livable (like the Falcon peninsula is pretty okay, i haven't been to the mainland in 4 years because **** that).

That being said, I absolutely understand the anger my generation feels towards the inequity in this country. Just because others have it and have had it harder than you doesn't mean there are no problems to be fixed and everything is fine. Wages haven't risen significantly to reflect profits and increased productivity of all workers (thanks in part to the new, cheaper technology that fuels 21st century productivity), most people are expected to work for pennis to have the chance to maybe work for some money after they graduate, most college degrees don't mean anything any more in terms of market value and the ones that do are becoming more and more competitive to obtain and the job markets are becoming more and more saturated. World governments do little and ours does less to respond to climate change, the single largest existential crisis facing Mankind right now. The poor in this country have never had less mobility and faced more threats to their livelihood than right now (being priced out of gentrified neighborhoods in places where they have lived and worked for generations, unable to afford schooling, unable to afford higher education, unable to afford healthy food, unable to afford proper healthcare etc egg). The "micro aggression" culture on campus isn't some new fangled millennial gripe. In the 60s/70s the same folks who went off to Vietnam and came back and went to college were pissed off about how black people were treated in this country. 70s feminists even advocated that to be a lesbian was to practice feminism. What does that even mean? There were decades before ours far more politically radical. Millenils are tame compared to the long arc of history, the idea that "political outrage on campuses for these small theoretical constructs is dumb" is not new, is ridiculous and ignorant of past periods of human history.

Also, it's not as if we stopped fighting wars after Vietnam. The millennial generation fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, the two wars that have produced the highest incidences of PTSD and other traumatic stress disorders among its participants since Vietnam when PTSD was acknowledged as a thing that happened. The rhetorical notion used here is: "a generation is more valuable if it fights a protracted major conflict in the name of our country" is absurd. Even then, our generation fought two. There was no draft but there were multiple re deployments among a smaller fighting force. They went to war and they are part of our generation, as someone who lives in a state that likes to send its sons to the military, many of them were my friends and the family of my friends. Personally I think it's really myopic to include the "whiners" who didn't choose to join the effort in a generation but not the people who, like generations before them, in fact did.

By the way do you know what the WW2 generation and the government told the military medical branch and Vietnam veterans when they argued that soldiers were suffering from mental disorders related to the trauma of the war? They called them a bunch of entitled whiners that needed to get over it. A real soldier, especially an officer, didn't need someone's help to get over war, they just did it. Why couldn't they just get with the program?

There is good reason to be dissatisfied with the status quo. People should be making more money than they are, wealth shouldn't be as concentrated as it is. People should be able to get an emergency surgery and not worry about how they will feed their family afterwards. People should be angry that institutionalized violence against minorities still exists. People should try to reform their character so that they can include and not exclude others from society.

One of the things I truly enjoy about this site is how f&^#ing smart some of you young folks are. Wow. Can't wait to see how many top med schools will be begging you to come to their school. You are an example of @Med Ed being right.....the power dynamics in your case will be in your favor.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm from Venezuela and that's not even the worst part...the lines for the grocery store are 4-6 hours long now. Some even longer in the bigger cities. You can't leave your house at night in Caracas or Maracaibo without a weapon and a group and a good knowledge of which gang controls which territory. When were there we carry around some money and a cellphone that isn't really the one we use (like some random old blackberry) so that when - not if - we are mugged while moving around the city we can give the thieves something because if you don't have anything they will beat you up for being poor or for hiding something. The cities are really bad in Venezuela right now. There are other areas that are less bad and actually livable (like the Falcon peninsula is pretty okay, i haven't been to the mainland in 4 years because **** that).

That being said, I absolutely understand the anger my generation feels towards the inequity in this country. Just because others have it and have had it harder than you doesn't mean there are no problems to be fixed and everything is fine. Wages haven't risen significantly to reflect profits and increased productivity of all workers (thanks in part to the new, cheaper technology that fuels 21st century productivity), most people are expected to work for pennis to have the chance to maybe work for some money after they graduate, most college degrees don't mean anything any more in terms of market value and the ones that do are becoming more and more competitive to obtain and the job markets are becoming more and more saturated. World governments do little and ours does less to respond to climate change, the single largest existential crisis facing Mankind right now. The poor in this country have never had less mobility and faced more threats to their livelihood than right now (being priced out of gentrified neighborhoods in places where they have lived and worked for generations, unable to afford schooling, unable to afford higher education, unable to afford healthy food, unable to afford proper healthcare etc egg). The "micro aggression" culture on campus isn't some new fangled millennial gripe. In the 60s/70s the same folks who went off to Vietnam and came back and went to college were pissed off about how black people were treated in this country. 70s feminists even advocated that to be a lesbian was to practice feminism. What does that even mean? There were decades before ours far more politically radical. Millenils are tame compared to the long arc of history, the idea that "political outrage on campuses for these small theoretical constructs is dumb" is not new, is ridiculous and ignorant of past periods of human history.

Also, it's not as if we stopped fighting wars after Vietnam. The millennial generation fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, the two wars that have produced the highest incidences of PTSD and other traumatic stress disorders among its participants since Vietnam when PTSD was acknowledged as a thing that happened. The rhetorical notion used here is: "a generation is more valuable if it fights a protracted major conflict in the name of our country" is absurd. Even then, our generation fought two. There was no draft but there were multiple re deployments among a smaller fighting force. They went to war and they are part of our generation, as someone who lives in a state that likes to send its sons to the military, many of them were my friends and the family of my friends. Personally I think it's really myopic to include the "whiners" who didn't choose to join the effort in a generation but not the people who, like generations before them, in fact did.

By the way do you know what the WW2 generation and the government told the military medical branch and Vietnam veterans when they argued that soldiers were suffering from mental disorders related to the trauma of the war? They called them a bunch of entitled whiners that needed to get over it. A real soldier, especially an officer, didn't need someone's help to get over war, they just did it. Why couldn't they just get with the program?

There is good reason to be dissatisfied with the status quo. People should be making more money than they are, wealth shouldn't be as concentrated as it is. People should be able to get an emergency surgery and not worry about how they will feed their family afterwards. People should be angry that institutionalized violence against minorities still exists. People should try to reform their character so that they can include and not exclude others from society.

And yet many young people view socialism as the answer, the very system that destroyed your country and plunged it into anarchy and violence.

 

[WingedOx]

There's only so many young people to go around, and cities tend to go through cycles of popularity and disdain. If NY eventually develops a reputation for being the sort of place no young person can move to and COL gets too great, it will age, then decline, then the cycle will begin anew. Things don't just stay static, sometimes you don't get to live where you grew up and you've got to make your own way if you want a better life for yourself.

Well here's a question: What examples of this phenomenon have we seen?

 

[KungFuPanda123]

And yet many young people view socialism as the answer, the very system that destroyed your country and plunged it into anarchy and violence.

I don't know any sane person in my life who thinks that attempting to apply socialism in every one of its forms is the answer. That being said, I don't know a single sane person in my life that doesn't think that certain aspects of socialism are great to have in place in order to have a stronger country. Take a look at free education (K->12). I'd say that free education has done more good for us than "plunging [us] into anarchy and violence."

Was it insanely revolutionary that poor people were able to receive a free education in this country beginning in the 19th century? Yes, it was at the time. Is it insanely revolutionary now? No, it's not. Is it that surprising that almost 2 centuries later (almost a century when it comes to secondary education), we're seeing people try to demand that a post-secondary education become free as well - especially when you consider the fact that a post-secondary education is more essential now than ever before when it comes to a financially stable future? Although I'm not sure where I stand with this, I sure don't think it's insane.

I'm not saying that we overturn every single thing in our country in exchange for what socialism has to offer, but certain tenants of it such as free education (K->12) are applicable and in my opinion, universally beneficial to society. These applicable tenants were seen as revolutionary/crazy at the time when they were first applied. Now that they are commonplace, it should be no surprise that some groups are demanding the next step forward for a free college education now that a college education is more necessary for success than in the past.

You seem to think that these "young'ns" demanding certain things are lazy and and a new-found nuisance, but lazy people have been around since the dawn of time. Perhaps you just notice them more now that they have a platform by which to publicly broadcast their message (i.e. the Internet)? My immigrant parents worked their asses off for my brother and me to get through school and make a good career for ourselves. Despite the fact that they have made it through the ringer, they still firmly support various socialist ideals including free financial aid (e.g. Pell grants). When I talked to them about how annoying taxes are, they told me to basically shut up because they are happy to pay their taxes. They recounted to me about how they themselves needed access to government financial aid that is paid for by their taxes to get to where they are now since they couldn't afford to get through school without it. They worked part-time in a factory while being a full-time student to fully pay for school. Yet even though in my mind they are the epitome of hard-work and could in turn call people in my generation "lazy," they don't, and I am always humbled by their mindset. They don't necessarily see people who require government aid or request certain socialist ideas as being lazy; they see them under the same light as they saw themselves 30 some years go - hard-working people who just need a temporary leg-up so that they too can help others in the future.

There are always going to be lazy people in society, but I'm not going to deny the huge number of people who are hard-working the ability to reach their full potential, just because of some fraction of people who wouldn't work hard no matter how much assistance they received.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well here's a question: What examples of this phenomenon have we seen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deurbanization
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090924093553.htm
http://www.bentley.edu/prepared/why-millennials-are-moving-suburbs-and-smaller-cities

It's a slow-but-sure process that is occurring all over the US, as people move from traditional powerhouse cities to smaller, more affordable cities throughout the country. As the youth flees places like NY and LA, these cities will enter decline as their workforce ages and their appeal to youthful new citizens decreases. It's also been happening in China for years as well, as migrants no longer find expensive, large cities to be desirable:

http://www.theatlantic.com/china/ar...re-abandoning-the-countrys-top-cities/274860/

And also in London:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/29/young-londoners-flee-capital-region-house-prices

It's basically happening all over the world.

 

[Lucca]

And yet many young people view socialism as the answer, the very system that destroyed your country and plunged it into anarchy and violence.

Calling Venezuela socialist is like calling the USSR a capitalist wonderland. That is a more complicated discussion though. There are elements of socialism in Venezuela, but what destroyed the country was poor and criminal leadership, the destruction of private ownership and antagonism towards foreign investment (yes, these are socialist), the unchecked proliferation of weapons, unwillingness to raise domestic oil prices, the targeting of political opponents and the nepotistic, jingoistic hiring practices which put criminals and not professionals in charge of important nationalized industries (like PDVSA, the oil company), the creation of a currency black market as a result of fixing the official exchange rate at a single rate which drove up inflation 1000% over 15 years, general ineptititude, the lack of a civil police force, corruption in the military establishment, embezzling billions in public funds by government officials, including the president and his family (both Chavez and Maduro). It's a much more complicated situation that requires a more in depth discussion about the nation's history than "socialism bad therefore chaos"

I won't lie to you though. I don't like our university socialist group. Lots of people who call themselves "socialists" are unwilling to accept the many ways in which capitalism is good and better than alternatives, including socialist ideas. I mostly find them annoying. I do think that education, housing, health and the national defense should be provided for by the government. I don't mind private industry existing in the same space though. (Except for the defense, I don't like private militaries and I don't think they can possibly have anyone's best interests in mind)

 

[Chelsea FC]

Calling Venezuela socialist is like calling the USSR a capitalist wonderland. That is a more complicated discussion though. There are elements of socialism in Venezuela, but what destroyed the country was poor and criminal leadership, not socialism.

I hear you, I lived in a country that has the same negatives and its a democracy .. Its alot more complicated than that

 

[WhaleFace]

I also noticed this. Very weird.

I have also noticed this being that I am African but I have to say even though these are distinct cultures the lines can easily be blurred. My parents immigrated here from Africa but I have never been there. I was raised in an inner-city with not so many Africans (in fact I probably met the most Africans in college) most of my friends growing up were Black and that's typically how I identify myself. However, I do know it's true that my African culture values education which can then lead to things like becoming a doctor or lawyer(that's not to say the black culture doesn't , just speaking from my own experience). If you subtract the amt. of African physicians practicing in the US the number of black physicians dramatically decreases but then again these two cultures are often times hard to distinguish like in my case. Nonetheless, this is a huge problem and I do appreciate the activism from medical students to try and foster some long-term changes.

 

[Mad Jack]

Calling Venezuela socialist is like calling the USSR a capitalist wonderland. That is a more complicated discussion though. There are elements of socialism in Venezuela, but what destroyed the country was poor and criminal leadership, the destruction of private ownership and antagonism towards foreign investment (yes, these are socialist), the unchecked proliferation of weapons, unwillingness to raise domestic oil prices, the targeting of political opponents and the nepotistic, jingoistic hiring practices which put criminals and not professionals in charge of important nationalized industries (like PDVSA, the oil company), the creation of a currency black market as a result of fixing the official exchange rate at a single rate which drove up inflation 1000% over 15 years, general ineptititude, the lack of a civil police force, corruption in the military establishment, embezzling billions in public funds by government officials, including the president and his family (both Chavez and Maduro). It's a much more complicated situation that requires a more in depth discussion about the nation's history than "socialism bad therefore chaos"

I won't lie to you though. I don't like our university socialist group. Lots of people who call themselves "socialists" are unwilling to accept the many ways in which capitalism is good and better than alternatives, including socialist ideas. I mostly find them annoying. I do think that education, housing, health and the national defense should be provided for by the government. I don't mind private industry existing in the same space though. (Except for the defense, I don't like private militaries and I don't think they can possibly have anyone's best interests in mind)

Housing should be provided by the government? Uh... That's kind of the most important piece of property (and the largest store of value) many people have, and you want to sacrifice that to the government in a way that no developed Western country currently does? It would also cost a fortune, given how expensive even the cheapest of houses is. And would obliterate the housing/construction sector, one of the largest employers in the nation, while lowering overall standards of housing/living.

 

[Nietzschelover]

And yet many young people view socialism as the answer, the very system that destroyed your country and plunged it into anarchy and violence.

Really? Disappointing and self-serving tangential response to that very personal and thoughtful post.

 

[Mad Jack]

Really? Disappointing and self-serving tangential response to that very personal and thoughtful post.

I'm studying for the boards and have 6 hours of video to watch today, I really don't have the time for depthy prose and philosophy in my responses right now.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I'm studying for the boards and have 6 hours of video to watch today, I really don't have the time for depthy prose and philosophy in my responses right now.

Haha. You seem to have plenty of time.

 

[Mad Jack]

Haha. You seem to have plenty of time.

A quick response takes ten seconds. A well-written post takes ten minutes. I don't have time for quality.

 

[Lucca]

Housing should be provided by the government? Uh... That's kind of the most important piece of property (and the largest store of value) many people have, and you want to sacrifice that to the government in a way that no developed Western country currently does? It would also cost a fortune, given how expensive even the cheapest of houses is. And would obliterate the housing/construction sector, one of the largest employers in the nation, while lowering overall standards of housing/living.

Yah I think affordable housing should be available to anyone working a low wage job in an expensive city and also for people who are mentally ill but cannot be permanently situated at their treatment facility. We can't prescribe a treatment plan to the homeless brought by police custody into our care and then send them back into the streets and expect them to follow the plan much less get better without some minimal support system in place. Shelter is the least we can do. Similarly, someone willing to work an honest job full-time shouldn't have to worry about having a roof over their head just because they live in an expensive area. If you price all of the poor out of an expensive area, who are your janitors, who picks up the trash, who cleans bathrooms, who delivers the mail, who staffs the government offices, who drives the buses and taxis, who works the train stations, etc etc etc. Manhattan does not run on just bankers and lawyers and doctors alone.