DO Degree Change any updates

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mclovit

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Hey all, Ill probably get a lot of hate for posting this...but when I was a med student there were talks of proposing to the AOA a proposal for degree change from DO to MDO or DO,MD. I know it had a lot of support at some point. Does anyone have any news/updates. I hope people are keeping the dialogue going on this topic.

I know ill probably be called a troll or MD wanabe, but as Im going through residency and looking at life after residency the more I realize that our degree is really selling us short. Oh well let the bashing start.
 
please elaborate on how you feel that you have been sold short. maybe a little background info would help as well (e.g. your field of choice, residency program type, etc). regardless, you do sound a bit trollish, especially with only five posts to your name.

BTW there is a better chance of the holy Andrew Taylor Still knighting you Sir Osteopathy that any type of degree change movement being made by the AOA. What parallel dimension are you currently living in?
 
Just become one already

janitor2b.jpg
 
to answer the guy's question, no, there hasn't been any change on that front. There was a JAOA article maybe a year back that again called for a name change (someone posted it on this forum at the time).

I'm curious as well about how the DO degree has hurt you. What specialty are you in?
 
is it true that DO's can "buy" an MD from some offshore "school" and advertise with it? I think I heard it from some MD adcom poster on here a while back, no joke.
 
user3 said:
is it true that DO's can "buy" an MD from some offshore "school" and advertise with it? I think I heard it from some MD adcom poster on here a while back, no joke.
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Yes. There is a school that offers an "accelerated program" to certain people like DOs and DDS's to basically buy the MD. A physician in my hometown did just that and advertises with DO, MD. I really don't know why he did that though, some decade after his career began.

http://www.boydobgyn.com/pdf/Boyd_CV.pdf

Got this from his website.
 
so to answer some questions. I am a CA 3 in anesthesia PGY4,
at some point I was proud of my degree and would defend it but I think over the years I am coming to terms that osteopathy is an antiquated term that the public doesn't understand. (In fact at one point during my residency a patient got mad at me for introducing my self as Dr.....apparently I was trying to misrepresent myself, which resulted in a long talk with my program director)...

I do not think getting an MD from offshore schools is the answer (although I don't fault the guy)

however I do think that 99% of DO's practice Medicine, therefore our degree should have an M in it. at least we should put it up for a vote. Educated people don't understand what a DO is and we should stop accusing everyone who inquires about a change as troll, or wanna be MD, or that people who don't know what a DO is as ignorant. I think the problem is the AOA and not the public.

I am in a unique position in that my spouse who is in the same residency as me, same training, same specialty, essentially same everything except has an MD is getting vastly different opportunities than me and other fellow DO's. I think that is wrong and as a profession we need to address this issue.
 
mclovit said:
so to answer some questions. I am a CA 3 in anesthesia PGY4,
at some point I was proud of my degree and would defend it but I think over the years I am coming to terms that osteopathy is an antiquated term that the public doesn't understand. (In fact at one point during my residency a patient got mad at me for introducing my self as Dr.....apparently I was trying to misrepresent myself, which resulted in a long talk with my program director)...

I do not think getting an MD from offshore schools is the answer (although I don't fault the guy)

however I do think that 99% of DO's practice Medicine, therefore our degree should have an M in it. at least we should put it up for a vote. Educated people don't understand what a DO is and we should stop accusing everyone who inquires about a change as troll, or wanna be MD, or that people who don't know what a DO is as ignorant. I think the problem is the AOA and not the public.

I am in a unique position in that my spouse who is in the same residency as me, same training, same specialty, essentially same everything except has an MD is getting vastly different opportunities than me and other fellow DO's. I think that is wrong and as a profession we need to address this issue.
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I agree with you, "osteopaths" were those huge bearded guys of antiquity who didn't accept pharmacology or germ theory and just used OMT to treat everything. The general public doesn't give a crap about the historical origins of the degree and it is generally just confusing to people. A change would certainly reduce confusion, but the AOA is never going to go for it since their existance depends on the manufactured distinction they claim we hold as the "alternative to the MD physician".
 
mclovit said:
so to answer some questions. I am a CA 3 in anesthesia PGY4,
at some point I was proud of my degree and would defend it but I think over the years I am coming to terms that osteopathy is an antiquated term that the public doesn't understand. (In fact at one point during my residency a patient got mad at me for introducing my self as Dr.....apparently I was trying to misrepresent myself, which resulted in a long talk with my program director)...

I do not think getting an MD from offshore schools is the answer (although I don't fault the guy)

however I do think that 99% of DO's practice Medicine, therefore our degree should have an M in it. at least we should put it up for a vote. Educated people don't understand what a DO is and we should stop accusing everyone who inquires about a change as troll, or wanna be MD, or that people who don't know what a DO is as ignorant. I think the problem is the AOA and not the public.

I am in a unique position in that my spouse who is in the same residency as me, same training, same specialty, essentially same everything except has an MD is getting vastly different opportunities than me and other fellow DO's. I think that is wrong and as a profession we need to address this issue.
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Just out of curiosity, when you say your spouse is getting "vastly different opportunities" are your referring to job offers or what?

Thanks!
 
how about the name change to OMD (osteopathic MEDICAL DOCTOR)?
 
I think it would be appropriate to request that DO's that have done an ACGME residency be allowed to use MD. It'll make everyone happy. DO's that want DO letters will be able to sport them without feeling threatened, and DO's that simply don't want to deal with the letters DO and have had ACGME training will be able to use MD.
 
TriagePreMed said:
I think it would be appropriate to request that DO's that have done an ACGME residency be allowed to use MD. It'll make everyone happy. DO's that want DO letters will be able to sport them without feeling threatened, and DO's that simply don't want to deal with the letters DO and have had ACGME training will be able to use MD.
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that proposal would work great, besides for the fact that they didn't earn an MD
 
startswithb said:
Yes. There is a school that offers an "accelerated program" to certain people like DOs and DDS's to basically buy the MD. A physician in my hometown did just that and advertises with DO, MD. I really don't know why he did that though, some decade after his career began.

http://www.boydobgyn.com/pdf/Boyd_CV.pdf

Got this from his website.
Click to expand...


He also lists among his "awards" on his CV (mind you this man has been out of college for >25 years) his certificate of achievement in undergrad student government and some national dean's list (among other equally unimpressive resume-padders).
 
mclovit said:
so to answer some questions. I am a CA 3 in anesthesia PGY4,
at some point I was proud of my degree and would defend it but I think over the years I am coming to terms that osteopathy is an antiquated term that the public doesn't understand. (In fact at one point during my residency a patient got mad at me for introducing my self as Dr.....apparently I was trying to misrepresent myself, which resulted in a long talk with my program director)...

I do not think getting an MD from offshore schools is the answer (although I don't fault the guy)

however I do think that 99% of DO's practice Medicine, therefore our degree should have an M in it. at least we should put it up for a vote. Educated people don't understand what a DO is and we should stop accusing everyone who inquires about a change as troll, or wanna be MD, or that people who don't know what a DO is as ignorant. I think the problem is the AOA and not the public.

I am in a unique position in that my spouse who is in the same residency as me, same training, same specialty, essentially same everything except has an MD is getting vastly different opportunities than me and other fellow DO's. I think that is wrong and as a profession we need to address this issue.
Click to expand...

Do you think this will change because of the letters after your last name? Not sure if the fix to your problem is going to be able to sign your name with MD instead of DO.
 
If you want an MD, go to an MD school. Its not like the AOA switched the degree after you applied. You knew what you were getting yourself into.

/Thread
 
Isozyme said:
If you want an MD, go to an MD school. Its not like the AOA switched the degree after you applied. You knew what you were getting yourself into.

/Thread
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Maybe he did; maybe he didn't. If as a pre-med he read and believed everything he read in SDN's pre-DO forums it is quite possible that he had no idea what he was getting himself into before actually starting med school.
 
El Dooderino said:
that proposal would work great, besides for the fact that they didn't earn an MD
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That's just some petty technicality. We know what happened in California with converting DO degrees to MD for a small fee and a weekend course.
 
TriagePreMed said:
I think it would be appropriate to request that DO's that have done an ACGME residency be allowed to use MD. It'll make everyone happy. DO's that want DO letters will be able to sport them without feeling threatened, and DO's that simply don't want to deal with the letters DO and have had ACGME training will be able to use MD.
Click to expand...

That is not unreasonable. In fact MD is a title. for instance some foreign countries issue degrees such as MBBS but the physician is licsenced as an MD hence they are MD's.

It is true that the AOA has not changed the degree on me, but after completing an internship, and almost 3.5 years of residency my perspective has changed from 8 years ago, and having to deal with that organization I realize how incompetent the AOA is.

In Fact I wouldn't trust the so called physicians running the AOA to give me a flu shot...I did an AOA internship and found it bindboggeling that some of the people high up in my DO internship had the right practice medicine.

I am DONE defending this silly term/degree. the term Osteopath should be abolished. lets call a spade a spade, this term is misleading/confusing and holds back the profession. In my experience the more I have moved up in my medical career the more limiting this degree has been for me, hence why I am so sour about the AOA and this degree.

again 99% of us are physicians who practice medicine, not osteopathy (whatever that is) afterall we work just as hard as our colleague MD's and deserve same respect/recognition.

Good luck to those who are involved and working hard to move our profession out of the 19th century.
 
Just pointing out. Both osteopath and osteopathy do NOT apply to the american degree of DO and have been repeatedly rebuked by the AOA over the last few decades (about 25 years, as best as I can tell) Those terms are solely applied to those whose degree is derived from one particular student of AT still who spread the techniques to Europe and Australia, not any american from of "osteopathic medicine"
 
Zercolops said:
Just out of curiosity, when you say your spouse is getting "vastly different opportunities" are your referring to job offers or what?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

wondering this as well.
 
mclovit said:
(In fact at one point during my residency a patient got mad at me for introducing my self as Dr.....apparently I was trying to misrepresent myself, which resulted in a long talk with my program director)...
Click to expand...

Wat.

Can you expand on this a little?
 
The bias is slight but exists. Here's the issue, did you apply to medical school with a 3.6+ and a 31+? And I'm not talking about AACOMAS gpa.

I dont think the name change is the issue. It's about raising admission standards, uniform accreditation (ie LCME for all) and uniform Step testing and uniform residency training. Basically further assimilation into the MD world. Anyway if the initials stay the same after all that, I'm okay with it

Then once we have all our colleagues on our side, then we can work on the patients.
 
thepoopologist said:
The bias is slight but exists. Here's the issue, did you apply to medical school with a 3.6+ and a 31+? And I'm not talking about AACOMAS gpa.
Click to expand...

That is an oft-repeated mantra on SDN. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the bias is far from slight. I think that's what the OP was saying in creating this thread. He is a 4th year anesthesiology resident, a DO, and he is frustrated because he feels his opportunities going forward (especially vis-a-vis his MD wife with whom his training is identical) are being limited because of his degree.

thepoopologist said:
I dont think the name change is the issue. It's about raising admission standards, uniform accreditation (ie LCME for all) and uniform Step testing and uniform residency training. Basically further assimilation into the MD world. Anyway if the initials stay the same after all that, I'm okay with it
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Don't disagree with any of this. But aren't you effectively suggesting that DO schools become MD schools? Methinks you'll catch some flak from your DO colleagues on this.
 
koennen said:
That is an oft-repeated mantra on SDN. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the bias is far from slight. I think that's what the OP was saying in creating this thread. He is a 4th year anesthesiology resident, a DO, and he is frustrated because he feels his opportunities going forward (especially vis-a-vis his MD wife with whom his training is identical) are being limited because of his degree.
Click to expand...

I was always under the assumption that where you go for residency is what decides your career. Is this true? I mean MD or DO, its a piece of paper, isn't where you go for medical training more important and what employers mainly are looking for?? And is this the reason why many prefer ACGME over AOA residencies?

I am currently an undergrad in a BS/DO dual-admit program, and all this talk of limitations is seriously stressing me out.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
He also lists among his "awards" on his CV (mind you this man has been out of college for >25 years) his certificate of achievement in undergrad student government and some national dean's list (among other equally unimpressive resume-padders).
Click to expand...


it is a CV. These are a collection of your life work. Contrary to the 2-page one you think they are. A CV is MUCH different than a Resume. I have seen a 36 page CV. This is a collection of your work and achievements.
 
koennen said:
That is an oft-repeated mantra on SDN. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the bias is far from slight. I think that's what the OP was saying in creating this thread. He is a 4th year anesthesiology resident, a DO, and he is frustrated because he feels his opportunities going forward (especially vis-a-vis his MD wife with whom his training is identical) are being limited because of his degree.
Click to expand...
I'm a third year student rotating at a hospital with MDs/DOs (attendings) and DOs in a DO residency. I'm sure my opinion will change the further in my training I go, especially if I end up at a ACGME program.



Don't disagree with any of this. But aren't you effectively suggesting that DO schools become MD schools? Methinks you'll catch some flak from your DO colleagues on this.
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Yes, because I think that's where the flak comes from, the separate but equal crap. COCA should only exist to accredit the OMM curriculum of our schools, in my opinion.
 
That stated, I would've been at "get off the waitlist, maybe" status had admission standards been higher when I applied, so I can't say that DO schools don't suit my needs operating as they do now
 
Without offending anyone here ... let's look at the PGY-4 Gas program situation objectively:

Two candidates, one MD and one DO, complete the same residency program and one is being presented with "better" opportunities than the other. Why is this:

1. Candidate 1 is an MD, candidate 2 is a DO.

2. ANY other conceivable explanation ... maybe candidate 1 is extremely personable and candidate 2 is not. Maybe candidate 1 is better at networking. Maybe candidate 1 knows someone important. Maybe candidate 1 simply looks better on paper. Maybe candidate 1 functions better under pressure. Hell, maybe candidate 1 is simply more intelligent.

Regardless of the reason, the point is that there are literally hundreds of reasons why one candidate would be chosen for post-residency positions compared to another. We can chose to believe it's 100% because one is a DO and the other is an MD. OR, we could chose to believe that there are countless variables involved here, and trying to pinpoint 1 specific reason is inane. I think the thousands of DOs in respected ACGME residency programs, ACGME fellowships, and at positions in MD academic medical centers lend credit to this logical opinion.
 
I see what you are saying. It is true I did not get into MD school. I honestly don't remember my GPA (maybe like 3.5is) but my highest MCAT was 28. I got wait listed at 2 MD schools and got into all the DO ones. I should have probably waited and reapplied but everyone I talked to at the time was telling me not to waist my time and its all the same. Unfortunately every state license you apply for will list you as a DO and although it is better going to ACGME residency it will not negate the fact that you are a DO especially if you are applying to academic positions, I am hoping reasonable minded people start running the AOA and agree that we should address the degree change issue.
 
I can't see how simply changing the letters or wording of the degree would help. People would still be able to see that you attended an osteopathic institution and not an allo one. The changes would need to extend beyond just the degree like thepoopoligist said.

I'm not sure I would be happy if absolutely everything became run like MD schools, though.... at least DO schools are more forgiving of past slip-ups, and the grade replacement really helps a lot of non-trads and low GPA folks more easily improve their credentials. If DO didn't exist many of us would have to spend $50,000+ on SMP's or go caribbean or change careers. Though the DO option presents several drawbacks I think we should be grateful that it is available.
 
mclovit said:
I am hoping reasonable minded people start running the AOA and agree that we should address the degree change issue.
Click to expand...

I agree with this statement, but not for the the degree change. The degree isn't the issue, the history of legitimate quackery isn't the issue, the issue is whether you like it or not we went to less prestigious schools, I have these issues as carribian grads have on getting job offers at prestigious institutions.

You want to make the AOA better?

1) then they. Red to stop mandatig you have to be an AOA member to maintain bias certification
2) be easier in allowing ACGME trained physicians to take the DO boards and allow them to work at DO "teaching" institutes as potentially even pd or DME
3) ultimatly the DO world needs to be much more inclusive to of Md trained DOs to improve our medical student training, better our institutions or heaven forbid actually maybe open up DO training at real academic universities.

Changing the degree to MD is just a band aid solution for the deficits in our institutes and does nothing but make the path easier for a few. And it marginalized the efforts of older DOs who fought and won against the AMAs attempt to close the very route which gave you an education and the ability to complain about it.
 
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Just want to comment on #1 above: I dont *like* that the AOA requires continued membership to be boarded... but.... the ACGME does the exact same thing, collecting dues to remain boarded. And the ACGME *is* 50% (actually like 45% but same think) run by the AMA. The ACGME is a nearly 50-50 split between the AMA and the AHA with two other organizations splitting a minority stake (I believe 10%). Go far enough up the AMA ladder and you get to be one of the trustees running the ACGME. I realize its not a direct payment to the AMA membership fee, but its pretty darn close to what the AOA does since the AMA gets paid anyway, you just might not get the e-mails. Not that either of them are particularly noble in doing so, just noting its the same on both sides with that.

....and people think I'm crazy to choose AMA over AOA.
 
DocEspana said:
Just want to comment on #1 above: I dont *like* that the AOA requires continued membership to be boarded... but.... the ACGME does the exact same thing, collecting dues to remain boarded. And the ACGME *is* 50% (actually like 45% but same think) run by the AMA. The ACGME is a nearly 50-50 split between the AMA and the AHA with two other organizations splitting a minority stake (I believe 10%). Go far enough up the AMA ladder and you get to be one of the trustees running the ACGME. I realize its not a direct payment to the AMA membership fee, but its pretty darn close to what the AOA does since the AMA gets paid anyway, you just might not get the e-mails. Not that either of them are particularly noble in doing so, just noting its the same on both sides with that.

....and people think I'm crazy to choose AMA over AOA.
Click to expand...

the AOA charges yearly dues AND the board cert fee to maintain certification. I don't believe the AMA does
 
Hernandez said:
the AOA charges yearly dues AND the board cert fee to maintain certification. I don't believe the AMA does
Click to expand...

It is true that the AMA does not require membership and membership dues. Ice heard that the acgme has a higher cme requirement than aoa and cme is a money raiser of its own.... But as a student I can't honestly tell you if that's true. Cme is not something I follow.
 
DocEspana said:
It is true that the AMA does not require membership and membership dues. Ice heard that the acgme has a higher cme requirement than aoa and cme is a money raiser of its own.... But as a student I can't honestly tell you if that's true. Cme is not something I follow.
Click to expand...

most states typicaly require more CME than board recert does. the AMA is starting p with requiring MOC components which include CQI Amd stupid tests, but the AOA will be requiring the same shortly.
 
While we debate the nomenclature of our degrees the NPs are sliding in to pull the carpet out from under us.
 
I think if a DO wants to (and MDs will let him/her) take the allopathic boards and complete an allo residency, why not let him/her use the title MD?

Similarly, I think if an MD decides, 'hey, I want to learn me some OMT', then why not? As of right now the only thing that differentiates me from an allopathic first year is ~15 hours of OMM lab.

I'm proud to be getting my DO, and yes I think it sucks that there is still some bias, but people get too freaking wrapped up in the letters after their name.
 
DocEspana said:
It is true that the AMA does not require membership and membership dues. Ice heard that the acgme has a higher cme requirement than aoa and cme is a money raiser of its own.... But as a student I can't honestly tell you if that's true. Cme is not something I follow.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but at least with CME you're learning something or teaching something, it's not like with the AOA who is just saying, "Gimme yo money!"
 
TallScrubs said:
I think if a DO wants to (and MDs will let him/her) take the allopathic boards and complete an allo residency, why not let him/her use the title MD?

Similarly, I think if an MD decides, 'hey, I want to learn me some OMT', then why not? As of right now the only thing that differentiates me from an allopathic first year is ~15 hours of OMM lab.

I'm proud to be getting my DO, and yes I think it sucks that there is still some bias, but people get too freaking wrapped up in the letters after their name.
Click to expand...

Same way I really like latin terms for every day things and would prefer a Medicinae Baccalaureus, Baccalaureus Chirurgiae (MBBCh) but no one is going to give me that unless I attend a UK (or certain canadian) schools. Doesn't matter if I'm fully allowed to practice in the UK and jump through all the hoops they do, the school gives the degree, not the oversight committee that handles training and quality control.
 
DocEspana said:
Same way I really like latin terms for every day things and would prefer a Medicinae Baccalaureus, Baccalaureus Chirurgiae (MBBCh) but no one is going to give me that unless I attend a UK (or certain canadian) schools. Doesn't matter if I'm fully allowed to practice in the UK and jump through all the hoops they do, the school gives the degree, not the oversight committee that handles training and quality control.
Click to expand...

Your analogy doesn't work because MBBS's who come here are called MDs even though they didn't attend an American med school.
 
Aislinn said:
Your analogy doesn't work because MBBS's who come here are called MDs even though they didn't attend an American med school.
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.... no.... they're not. As far as I can tell, they still have to legally sign it MBBS or MBBCh. Unless there is some degree converter I dont know about (and i doubt there is). They're called MDs the same way DOs are called MDs: when filling out a form its easier to write PMD for primary doctor than PMD/PDO/PMBBS/etc. Degrees are given by schools, not governments/oversight groups. Governments simply require you sign and identify the degree you actually have, but a lot of times MD is used as short hand for physician.
 
DocEspana said:
.... no.... they're not. As far as I can tell, they still have to legally sign it MBBS or MBBCh. Unless there is some degree converter I dont know about (and i doubt there is). They're called MDs the same way DOs are called MDs: when filling out a form its easier to write PMD for primary doctor than PMD/PDO/PMBBS/etc. Degrees are given by schools, not governments/oversight groups. Governments simply require you sign and identify the degree you actually have, but a lot of times MD is used as short hand for physician.
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Use of the MD Title: The Wisconsin Medical Society

• Defends the use of the MD title by physicians who graduated with an MBBS and are licensed to practice medicine in Wisconsin.

http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/_WMS/legislation/_files/pdf/compendium/practice97-112.pdf

Page 12
 
Aislinn said:
Use of the MD Title: The Wisconsin Medical Society

• Defends the use of the MD title by physicians who graduated with an MBBS and are licensed to practice medicine in Wisconsin.

http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/_WMS/legislation/_files/pdf/compendium/practice97-112.pdf

Page 12
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Indeed. They currently *cannot* do that and the Wisconsin medical society feels its dumb and supports their ability to do so in the near future. Doesn't change that they still can't currently.

note: this is just from looking at the wording. Its clear that they are supporting the allowance of something that is not allowed currently. I do not know the specific wisconsin laws and clauses they are referring to. But the only time you write something like that is if you want a law changed to allow what you support, or if what you support is under attack. That wording implies the former, not the latter.

note 2: I also think its dumb to not allow equivalent degree switch over, but I understand why most places would request you properly identify your degree for technical reasons.
 
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