DO - Degree Change ...

[EastWestN2grt]

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Actually it might. I thought it wouldn't happen either, but apparently the AMA and the AOA have a joint proposition on this issue. From what I understand, the proposition is to allow MD's to enter osteopathic residencies and possibly change the DO credentials to M.D.,D.O. The AOA is actually coming to the students to ask their opinion about the issue. I attended a meeting with our class presidency who will report our ideas to the AOA at a national meeting.

Do you have any information about this proposition? If you do could you please put it on, or link it.

 

[BruceBanner]

As an addendum, if a grad takes the USMLE's and the COMLEX i dont see why they couldnt be called MD,DO.

Im only a pre-med, but arent the curriculae identical exept for the OMM stuff?

 

[homeboy]

Im only a pre-med, but arent the curriculae identical exept for the OMM stuff?

In reality yes, but that's not what the AOA purports.

 

[Red Beard]

Just a thought: the best pathway to pursue for those wishing to unify our professions is to lobby the AMA to create a pathway similar to that which foreign medical graduates use in order to practice in this country. Basically, earn your degree, sit for all three steps of the USMLE, then legally be allowed to use whichever title you choose.

 

[amindwalker]

Agreed.

 

[Iquitos]

Do you have any information about this proposition? If you do could you please put it on, or link it.

I'll keep an eye out for a link. My class presidency learned about it at a conference.

 

[Old_Mil]

Just a thought: the best pathway to pursue for those wishing to unify our professions is to lobby the AMA to create a pathway similar to that which foreign medical graduates use in order to practice in this country. Basically, earn your degree, sit for all three steps of the USMLE, then legally be allowed to use whichever title you choose.

👍

 

[Boner]

I'll keep an eye out for a link. My class presidency learned at a conference.

I'll confirm what Iquitos has said. The idea behind the proposed change in degree designation is part of a bigger negotiation between the AOA and AMA. With the government pressing for an increase in med school class sizes by as much as 30% and not expanding funding for residency positions, the idea is to keep all residency positions open for U.S. graduates. By 2012, allopathic medical schools are projected to have increased enrollment by 15%, which is a lot more total students with no increase in residency spots. Osteo schools are opening at a rate of about two per year, with no increase in residency spots either. So what happens? We let allopathic students into osteo residencies and osteo students are allowed into allo residencies. The exchange will guarantee a spot for every U.S. grad by the time class sizes increase, thus elbowing out foreign grads. Part of the exchange is that allo students in osteo residencies must learn OMM. The other side of the coin is that osteo students in allo residencies will be allowed to practice and teach OMM if they would like. Should allo students complete the required 200 hours of training in OMM, they could be credentialed as MD, DO as well. Their has also been talk of pumping more money into OMM research and marketing as part of the deal. Realize, also, with the MD, DO, osteo grads will gain international practice rights without a hassle.
This is most certainly being voted on in July at the AOA house of delegates meeting. Realize that this would not be happening unless the AOA was receptive to the idea, and from what I understand, the younger members of the house are the ones that are pushing this.

 

[Taus]

Some of those ideas sound good in theory, but there is no way I can believe a word of it until I see some concrete evidence. This is the AOA we're talking about here....don't expect too much to happen...

I'll confirm what Iquitos has said. The idea behind the proposed change in degree designation is part of a bigger negotiation between the AOA and AMA. With the government pressing for an increase in med school class sizes by as much as 30% and not expanding funding for residency positions, the idea is to keep all residency positions open for U.S. graduates. By 2012, allopathic medical schools are projected to have increased enrollment by 15%, which is a lot more total students with no increase in residency spots. Osteo schools are opening at a rate of about two per year, with no increase in residency spots either. So what happens? We let allopathic students into osteo residencies and osteo students are allowed into allo residencies. The exchange will guarantee a spot for every U.S. grad by the time class sizes increase, thus elbowing out foreign grads. Part of the exchange is that allo students in osteo residencies must learn OMM. The other side of the coin is that osteo students in allo residencies will be allowed to practice and teach OMM if they would like. Should allo students complete the required 200 hours of training in OMM, they could be credentialed as MD, DO as well. Their has also been talk of pumping more money into OMM research and marketing as part of the deal. Realize, also, with the MD, DO, osteo grads will gain international practice rights without a hassle.
This is most certainly being voted on in July at the AOA house of delegates meeting. Realize that this would not be happening unless the AOA was receptive to the idea, and from what I understand, the younger members of the house are the ones that are pushing this.

 

[Boner]

Some of those ideas sound good in theory, but there is no way I can believe a word of it until I see some concrete evidence. This is the AOA we're talking about here....don't expect too much to happen...

I thought the exact same thing at first; My immediate question to the issue was, "why bother since the AOA executive board is so stubborn and unreceptive to change?" Apparently, the House of Delegates is where change happens, and these are the people who brought up the issue. In fact, this is apparently the first time the House has asked for student input to be presented on an issue. The issue is most definitely being discussed and voted upon in July. Whether or not the resolution passes, the issue is sending ripples throughout the osteopathic medical community.

 

[Red Beard]

I thought the exact same thing at first; My immediate question to the issue was, "why bother since the AOA executive board is so stubborn and unreceptive to change?" Apparently, the House of Delegates is where change happens, and these are the people who brought up the issue. In fact, this is apparently the first time the House has asked for student input to be presented on an issue. The issue is most definitely being discussed and voted upon in July. Whether or not the resolution passes, the issue is sending ripples throughout the osteopathic medical community.

The AOA house of delegates website has a list of issues scheduled for the upcoming meeting, and a form for submitting you input. I can't locate this particular topic in the schedule....anyone else see it?

https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=cal_hod07#res

EDIT: It would be nice to have some idea how we can organize student comments to be considered PRIOR to any discussion in July.

 

[Boner]

The AOA house of delegates website has a list of issues scheduled for the upcoming meeting, and a form for submitting you input. I can't locate this particular topic in the schedule....anyone else see it?

https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=cal_hod07#res

EDIT: It would be nice to have some idea how we can organize student comments to be considered PRIOR to any discussion in July.

That was last year's meeting - check the date at the top

Furthermore, your SGA president should be gathering student input, as each SGA president was asked to do so at the national osteo SGA presidents' meeting (whatever it's called). If students are not being asked by their SGA, they should approach them and ask WTF they're doing to gather student input (rather than maybe pushing their own agenda when July rolls around)

 

[Red Beard]

That was last year's meeting - check the date at the top

Well crap. Just took my OMM final practical and a little bit spaced out 😛

On the plus side, I never have to take another OMM practical ever again! 👍

 

[DannMann99]

You know I was never really behind the DO name change, but I'm kind of feeling like this is a good idea.

 

[DocFox]

Sounds good to me. I still am highly skeptical.
I really like the idea of opening up residencies for both sides but are DOs really not allowed into some allo residencies by actual rules or is it just because none have been "competitive enough" (or discriminated against)?

 

[ASUAZCOM]

...we should all make a petition to the AOA about creating quality GME programs and open more DO schools that are university affiliated rather than opening up random free standing, poorly staffed and under-resourced schools.

I agree.

 

[Wylde]

I don't think you understand what would happen if DO/MD were one degree!!!

In law schools, there are four tiers. If you attend a first tier school, you'll probably end up with a decent job. The amazing law jobs that everyone dreams of only really come out of the top-14 schools. If you attend a third or fourth tier school, you may not even have a job graduating from law school!!!

Whats my point? If DO/MD became one degree, there would become TIERS OF MEDICAL SCHOOLS! Right now, if you graduate from any allopathic school you have a pretty good shot of scoring the same residencies (well, you might not get an MGH neurosurgery residency out of Rosalind franklin, but you get my piont) and the same goes with comparing osteopathic schools. However, if you combine the degree the osteopathic schools would simply become tier 3/4 and the allopathic schools would become 1/2 and the results would be even WORSE. You wouldn't be competitive coming out of a lower tier school and everyone would think differently, like with law schools.

 

[ctdocMD]

I'll keep an eye out for a link. My class presidency learned about it at a conference.

i personally think this is ridiculous. DO's should not have the same degree as MD's. there is a reason why osteopathic students attend osteopathic schools and allopathic students attend allopathic schools. if there really was no difference, than the 2 degrees would cease to exist and it would unified as a single degree, meaning every osteopathic and allopathic medical school would award the same degree. however, im not sure if many allopathic students are open to this (i for sure am not) if osteopathic students are so concerned with the marketing of their degree, this is something that should have been addressed a long time ago.

my second problem is the fact that osteopathic students are in allopathic residencies. i have nothing against osteopathic students (they choose this degree on their own will and their just as capable as any other doctor) however, theyre osteopathic...remember that. therefore i think they should train in only their respective graduate medical education system...not allopathic. if your argument is that there is not enough residency spots for osteopathic students, well thats kind of too bad....the AOA should have addressed this and taken care of it by negotiating with teaching hospitals, i mean the AOA has been around only for a 100 yrs....

it just irritates me when osteopathic students complain about changing their degree to be more like an MD when the whole notion of the osteopathic medicine was to break off from the MD and to follow its own principles of medicine

 

[DOanesthesia]

my second problem is the fact that osteopathic students are in allopathic residencies. i have nothing against osteopathic students (they choose this degree on their own will and they're just as capable as any other doctor) however, they're osteopathic...remember that. therefore i think they should train in only their respective graduate medical education system...not allopathic.

Too bad the anesthesia prgram I matched at liked me more than some of the allopathic students. It worked exactly like it should. The best candidates got the best spots.

it just irritates me when osteopathic students complain about changing their degree to be more like an MD when the whole notion of the osteopathic medicine was to break off from the MD and to follow its own principles of medicine

I have no desire to be an MD. I'll keep my DO and be perfectly happy practicing anesthesiology.

 

[DannMann99]

You know I might have mistook the post from last night. From what I gathered if you go to a DO school and a proceed to DO residency then you're a DO. If you go Allo and Allo res. you're an MD.
They're voting on opening AOA residency slots to allo schools and if an MD goes AOA residency they become MD, DO. If a DO goes Allo residency they too become MD, DO.

It makes sense to me for a few reasons.
1) It essentially removes any need to push for international practice rights.
2) People dedicated to the DO calling can remain that way, you dont have to be MD's or MD, DO's.(just go with an AOA residency) (also works with people dedicated to the MD calling).
3) It will be even across the board, as in: not just DO's will become MD DO's.
4) It will negate unawareness of the DO degree.

I like the idea because it opens alot of possibilities not just for DO's but for allo's as well.

As for the person who was talking about tiered medical schools... I don't think that will happen. and I have no resources to back up my opinion.

On a personal note, I am going to go to the best residency that I can get into. Just as I did with medical school. So whether that be DO, or MD i'll choose when the time comes from the best available to me.

And for the MD saying it was a bad idea, the bargaining chip for the AMA is that our residency slots will be open to be shared with MD's, so you as well will have more residency slots to choose from.

Just my thoughts at 9am. 👍

 

[REM12]

OK, let me get this straight. DO's can already do allopathic or osteopathic residencies and MD's can only do allopathic residencies. This change would mean that MD's would be able to take osteopathic residency spots from us and all we gain is a couple of letters after our names if we do an allopathic residency? Me no likey. Besides, why should MD's, with no OMM training, be able to handle an osteopathic residency? If MD's want to learn OMM, they should either take the course at Harvard or else should have become DO's in the first place. Please folks, we got a good thing going the way things are.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

OK, let me get this straight. DO's can already do allopathic or osteopathic residencies and MD's can only do allopathic residencies. This change would mean that MD's would be able to take osteopathic residency spots from us and all we gain is a couple of letters after our names if we do an allopathic residency? Me no likey. Besides, why should MD's, with no OMM training, be able to handle an osteopathic residency? If MD's want to learn OMM, they should either take the course at Harvard or else should have become DO's in the first place. Please folks, we got a good thing going the way things are.

Bingo.

Why give up the current situation? What real advantage is conferred by allowing MDs to do DO residencies?

For the proponents of DO/MD, you all do realize that neither licensing exams nor residencies confer degrees, right?

 

[Boner]

OK, let me get this straight. DO's can already do allopathic or osteopathic residencies and MD's can only do allopathic residencies. This change would mean that MD's would be able to take osteopathic residency spots from us and all we gain is a couple of letters after our names if we do an allopathic residency? Me no likey. Besides, why should MD's, with no OMM training, be able to handle an osteopathic residency? If MD's want to learn OMM, they should either take the course at Harvard or else should have become DO's in the first place. Please folks, we got a good thing going the way things are.

I don't think you understand the situation. Please read my post above for the reasoning behind letting MDs into DO residencies. Also, the MD,DO designation won't be granted after a residency is completed; each school will grant the MD, DO degree, so no matter what residency pathway you choose, you will be an MD, DO. I will reiterate that MDs entering DO residencies will have to learn OMM. Furthermore, a significant amount of DO residencies don't fill as it is, so I don't think they'll be taking anything away. One could also argue, based on your statement, that DOs are taking MD spots, but I don't hear of many MDs who are bothered by that. The point is when the enrollment expansion occurs, this will guarantee spots for all US grads. Again, read my posts above to get a better idea of the situation and how the degree designation change is part of a larger negotiation.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Also, the MD,DO designation won't be granted after a residency is completed;...

each school will grant the MD, DO degree, so no matter what residency pathway you choose, you will be an MD, DO.

So you don't get your DO/MD until after you finish residency? Or the school awards it? Which is it?

What you're really arguing for is a unification of graduate medical education in the U.S. Problem is, by uniting you obviate the need for osteopathic residencies (since there will be no more DOs), making the gold standard board-certifying bodies also obsolete. This will require an amalgamation of DO board certified in the MD world. That will be pretty tough to do, as you will be eliminating and/or forcing radical change on literally dozens of organizations. It's like trying to force the metric system down our collective throats.

Bottom line, I see no real, substantial benefit to throwing some extra initials on my white coat (which BTW, I did not earn). I do see a lot of unnecessary headaches. And I highly doubt that you'll ever be able to get the enormous consensus required to ever make this happen. It's a pipe dream. Much better things we could focus energy into.

One last thought, can anyone here give me a substantial reason as to how allowing MD grads do DO residencies helps osteopathic students? The sense of fair play is sort of admirable, but it doesn't seem to help the DOs all that much. Right now, we can have our cake and eat it too.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Just another instance of DO's wanting to be called MD's.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Just another instance of DO's wanting to be called MD's.

Sure seems that way to me too.

I've been a DO for a year now, and I have absolutely no problems at all concerning my degree. I really think that the importance of this issue is largest on internet message boards.

 

[ctdocMD]

I don't think you understand the situation. Please read my post above for the reasoning behind letting MDs into DO residencies. Also, the MD,DO designation won't be granted after a residency is completed; each school will grant the MD, DO degree, so no matter what residency pathway you choose, you will be an MD, DO. I will reiterate that MDs entering DO residencies will have to learn OMM. Furthermore, a significant amount of DO residencies don't fill as it is, so I don't think they'll be taking anything away. One could also argue, based on your statement, that DOs are taking MD spots, but I don't hear of many MDs who are bothered by that. The point is when the enrollment expansion occurs, this will guarantee spots for all US grads. Again, read my posts above to get a better idea of the situation and how the degree designation change is part of a larger negotiation.

it doesn't bother many MD students because DO's don't take competitive residencies from us, ive heard of only 1 DO getting into a neurosurgery residency and none making it into derm, plastics, ortho, uro, ent, radio, etc. with that being said, if DO's open their residencies, im not really sure how many MD's are going to want to get their training from these programs, besides maybe some DO neurosurgery, orthopedics, uro, or radiology which I can also predict, MD's taking all over....so I mean, I dont see a benefit for MD's at all, in fact I think we are being take advantage of...the AOA has nothing to offer, nothing in comparison to what the AMA already gives us. also, your point on filling spots for US grads, there are many qualified FMGs who kill the boards and are heavily involved in research which should be getting spots over less qualified US candidates......someone previously mentioned in the thread about most that only the best candidates get the spots, well..here you go.....should a PD admit a DO who has mediocre boards, no research, alright ranking, etc. versus and doctor from Europe or somewhere that has scored in the top 90percentile of the boards, previous work experience, research, high ranking, etc. i know who i would choose...

 

[IDBasco]

Also, the MD,DO designation won't be granted after a residency is completed; each school will grant the MD, DO degree, so no matter what residency pathway you choose, you will be an MD, DO. I will reiterate that MDs entering DO residencies will have to learn OMM.

Wait, everyone will be an MD/DO regardless of allo or osteo training? That doesn't seem right if OMM hasn't been learned. Or do you mean that just the osteo schools would do this?

Frankly, I think the whole thing is dumb. MD or DO, who really cares? Legally they are equivalent, and thats all that matters to me. The time wasted by the AOA on this could be spent trying to increase quality and locations of OGME. I believe that some of the smaller, less desirable current residency locations should probably just be closed in favor of new spots that span US geography more evenly and may provide the student with a larger case variety from which to learn. Efforts should be focused on turning out the best quality docs possible. The rest is superfluous, IMO.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Whats my point? If DO/MD became one degree, there would become TIERS OF MEDICAL SCHOOLS! Right now, if you graduate from any allopathic school you have a pretty good shot of scoring the same residencies (well, you might not get an MGH neurosurgery residency out of Rosalind franklin, but you get my piont)

Actually, very little would change. There would be no new tiering system. The best students would take the best residencies (just like goes on now). There are already plenty of ACGME residencies for Allopathic students and i dont think too many would be lured by the AOA residencies except in the most competitive fields. Many of the best osteopathic students already go to ACGME residencies.

And for the record, a good student from RFU would have a good shot at MGH neursurg. At VCU (mid-tier Allopathic) they are sending students to Yale and UCSF neurosurg this year. Who gets the spot is already determined by who is the best student. Very little would change.

On a personal note, I am going to go to the best residency that I can get into. Just as I did with medical school. So whether that be DO, or MD i'll choose when the time comes from the best available to me.

And for the MD saying it was a bad idea, the bargaining chip for the AMA is that our residency slots will be open to be shared with MD's, so you as well will have more residency slots to choose from.

Just my thoughts at 9am. 👍

Residency is a match, not a straight application process like med school. In a way it is chosen for you.

In reality, that 'bargaining chip' isnt all that good for the AMA. I dont forsee to many MD student going toward AOA residencies. The only benefit would be if the AMA would also take over the AOA so that we have a unified medical assn (1 board exam, 1 set of standards, 1 group of residencies) that will provide an even more standardized medical education with higher standards than the AOA provides and more concern for its students rather than adherence to tradition and silly notions of segregation.

 

[J1515]

Just another instance of DO's wanting to be called MD's.

👍

I'm a DO and these people are an embarassment to our profession.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I dont forsee to many MD student going toward AOA residencies. The only benefit would be if the AMA would also take over the AOA so that we have a unified medical assn (1 board exam, 1 set of standards, 1 group of residencies) that will provide an even more standardized medical education with higher standards than the AOA provides and more concern for its students rather than adherence to tradition and silly notions of segregation.

I think you're wrong on the first point. Plenty of people want Ortho, NeuroSurg, etc. bad enough that they'll apply to the DO residencies.

I don't think the AMA supplanting the AOA will make much of a difference at all.

We would benefit from having the various ACGME RRCs maintaining residency standards. Of course, there is nothing stopping our colleges from doing this for themselves anyways.

 

[J1515]

should a PD admit a DO who has mediocre boards, no research, alright ranking, etc. versus and doctor from Europe or somewhere that has scored in the top 90percentile of the boards, previous work experience, research, high ranking, etc. i know who i would choose...

He should take the FMG. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Between DOs and FMGs, sometimes a slight edge will go to one or the other depending on the residency. But overall the best candidate should always get the spot.

 

[Buckeye4life]

If Osteoathic residencies are opened to MDs, that doesn't mean that preference won't be given to DOs first and MDs or foreign grads second. Also, MDs should have to take the COMLEX step one. As for the person saying that all the competitive osteopathic residencies will be taken over by MDs, I think you sorely underestimate the quality of many DO students.

 

[REM12]

👍

I'm a DO and these people are an embarassment to our profession.

👍

 

[Red Beard]

it doesn't bother many MD students because DO's don't take competitive residencies from us, ive heard of only 1 DO getting into a neurosurgery residency and none making it into derm, plastics, ortho, uro, ent, radio, etc. with that being said, if DO's open their residencies, im not really sure how many MD's are going to want to get their training from these programs, besides maybe some DO neurosurgery, orthopedics, uro, or radiology which I can also predict, MD's taking all over....so I mean, I dont see a benefit for MD's at all, in fact I think we are being take advantage of...the AOA has nothing to offer, nothing in comparison to what the AMA already gives us. also, your point on filling spots for US grads, there are many qualified FMGs who kill the boards and are heavily involved in research which should be getting spots over less qualified US candidates......someone previously mentioned in the thread about most that only the best candidates get the spots, well..here you go.....should a PD admit a DO who has mediocre boards, no research, alright ranking, etc. versus and doctor from Europe or somewhere that has scored in the top 90percentile of the boards, previous work experience, research, high ranking, etc. i know who i would choose...

A little off the topic here, and treading into "MD vs DO" territory...but I can't help noticing your use of a straw-man argument here. No one in this thread has said anything about forcing PDs to accept poorly qualified students. What most of us do support (again, off topic) is equal consideration based on individual merit and achievement, regardless of U.S. or foreign, allopathic or osteopathic training.

It is true that the system is currently set up in a way that is very beneficial to DO students, but it doesn't make a lot of sense if what we want is a meritocracy and not a good-old-boys sort of situation. If MDs are allowed to apply to competetive osteopathic residencies, then they will have to beat out many very strong allopathic and osteopathic applicants to get them. I say so be it. At the same time, if I can compete academically with U.S. and foreign MDs, I ought to be considered accordingly when I apply to a particular residency.

It is my contention that eliminating the seperate match would aid in moving us toward the kind of merit based system I support.

Lastly, to get back on topic, the only title change I could get behind would be one which allowed U.S. MDs to use the DO title if they wish to pursue the additional 200 hours of OMM training. I can't see any reasonable argument against it considering that is the only difference between our curricula in this day and age.

 

[Red Beard]

👍

I'm a DO and these people are an embarassment to our profession.

The only embarassment I see is an unwillingness (or inability?) to participate in an informed discussion.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

If Osteoathic residencies are opened to MDs, that doesn't mean that preference won't be given to DOs first and MDs or foreign grads second. Also, MDs should have to take the COMLEX step one. As for the person saying that all the competitive osteopathic residencies will be taken over by MDs, I think you sorely underestimate the quality of many DO students.

If we are going to open the DO residencies to MD applicants, I think we'd defeat the purpose if we discriminate against the MDs.

As for the quality of DO applicants, I've had the interesting experience of participating in the selection of applicants this year. I was amazed at how marginal a lot of applicants were to my moderately competitive specialty. Let's not get too cocky about our applicants.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

It is true that the system is currently set up in a way that is very beneficial to DO students, but it doesn't make a lot of sense if what we want is a meritocracy and not a good-old-boys sort of situation.

It works pretty well when you're one of the good old boys. 🙂

Look, I'm all about giving DOs all the advantages possible. DOs come first in my book.

The way I see it, we have the best of both worlds: our own residencies, and access to ACGME residencies. Given the questionable nature of the clinical experiences many of our schools provide, I see no compelling reason to take away one of the few advantages we enjoy.

 

[Red Beard]

It works pretty well when you're one of the good old boys. 🙂

True

Look, I'm all about giving DOs all the advantages possible. DOs come first in my book.

The way I see it, we have the best of both worlds: our own residencies, and access to ACGME residencies. Given the questionable nature of the clinical experiences many of our schools provide, I see no compelling reason to take away one of the few advantages we enjoy.

I can understand your argument from your point of view. Our values differ a bit. Rather than focusing on retaining advatages for weaker students, I would rather work on attracting stronger students to our schools. I feel that anything that helps eliminate the last vestiges of old-school discrimination will help in that effort. Combining our match and bringing our professions together rather than keeping them seperate might decrease the lingering stigma, thereby making DO programs more attractive, bringing in stronger students, and improving the profession from the ground up.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's a** about degree designations, except that I think opening an MD/DO pathway for both osteopathic and allopathic graduates who have completed OMM training would actually benefit the survival of osteopathic medicine. If osteopathic manipulative medicine is a valuable tool, then its existence will continue based on its merit, with the support of physicians from any school who have learned it and have chosen to use it.

Anyway, MS-II finals are happening and I need to quit distracting myself with SDN. Take care.

 

[Buckeye4life]

If we are going to open the DO residencies to MD applicants, I think we'd defeat the purpose if we discriminate against the MDs.

As for the quality of DO applicants, I've had the interesting experience of participating in the selection of applicants this year. I was amazed at how marginal a lot of applicants were to my moderately competitive specialty. Let's not get too cocky about our applicants.

That's very disheartening to think our own admissions thinks that way about our graduates, and wouldn't want to give preference to an osteopathic applicant if there are two equal candidates on the table.

I have seen nothing but extreme hard work, sacrifice, and commitment to becoming a physician from the vast majority of my classmates.

 

[Pansit]

wait a minute everyone will be MD, DO...what is wrong with that...wouldn't every physician being MD, DO spread the word of osteopathic medicine?..isnt that the point? Also maybe this will get rid of having to take two separate board exams...just take one and add in an OMM section...this seems to solve a lot of issues no?

 

[Iquitos]

OK, let me get this straight. DO's can already do allopathic or osteopathic residencies and MD's can only do allopathic residencies. This change would mean that MD's would be able to take osteopathic residency spots from us and all we gain is a couple of letters after our names if we do an allopathic residency? Me no likey. Besides, why should MD's, with no OMM training, be able to handle an osteopathic residency? If MD's want to learn OMM, they should either take the course at Harvard or else should have become DO's in the first place. Please folks, we got a good thing going the way things are.

Are you serious? MD's not being able to handle Osteopathic residency with no OMM training? I don't know how your school is set up, but at ours we go to OMM lab once a week for 1.5 hrs for the first 2 years. This could be easily taught during residency, especially since only 3% of DO students enter residencies that use OMM......3%.

 

[Iquitos]

i personally think this is ridiculous. DO's should not have the same degree as MD's. there is a reason why osteopathic students attend osteopathic schools and allopathic students attend allopathic schools. if there really was no difference, than the 2 degrees would cease to exist and it would unified as a single degree, meaning every osteopathic and allopathic medical school would award the same degree. however, im not sure if many allopathic students are open to this (i for sure am not) if osteopathic students are so concerned with the marketing of their degree, this is something that should have been addressed a long time ago.

my second problem is the fact that osteopathic students are in allopathic residencies. i have nothing against osteopathic students (they choose this degree on their own will and their just as capable as any other doctor) however, theyre osteopathic...remember that. therefore i think they should train in only their respective graduate medical education system...not allopathic. if your argument is that there is not enough residency spots for osteopathic students, well thats kind of too bad....the AOA should have addressed this and taken care of it by negotiating with teaching hospitals, i mean the AOA has been around only for a 100 yrs....

it just irritates me when osteopathic students complain about changing their degree to be more like an MD when the whole notion of the osteopathic medicine was to break off from the MD and to follow its own principles of medicine

Go cry to the AMA about this. This is a joint AMA-AOA effort.

 

[ctdocMD]

im not really sure how many MD's are willing to change their degrees to MD,DO....I for one dont want to, I worked hard to get where I am, i can pretty much say what none of my classmates are open to having DO in their title, nor any other MD school open to having their students have DO titles.

 

[ctdocMD]

Go cry to the AMA about this. This is a joint AMA-AOA effort.

i have already sent a petition with my faculty advisor and classmates...why the hell should a DO who had lets say a 25 on their mcat, 3.2 gpa, no research, poor credentials be awarded an MD just because they completed an MD residency......i had to bust my *** studying and doing well to get where i am today, thats bulls**t

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I have seen nothing but extreme hard work, sacrifice, and commitment to becoming a physician from the vast majority of my classmates.

I would have thought so too... and then I saw the board scores and LORs. Yikes.


You can have you pie-in-the-sky notions about how hardworking and committed everyone is. I think it's a little naive, but that's just my opinion. Maybe I'm too cynical. But I will say this, allopathic students are equally committed and hardworking. And most of them have access to better clinical rotations, more research opportunities, and more educational support and structure. They will be competitive for spots in the osteopathic match, should they ever get access. And when your hardworking, committed friends don't match at the osteopathic IM of their choice (too many superior allopaths gunning for the affiliated GI/Crads spots) or the good osteopathic EM spots, or whatever else, just remember that at one time we were able to have our cake and eat it too. It would be a shame to give up one of the few advantages we have.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

i have already sent a petition with my faculty advisor and classmates...why the hell should a DO who had lets say a 25 on their mcat, 3.2 gpa, no research, poor credentials be awarded an MD just because they completed an MD residency......i had to bust my *** studying and doing well to get where i am today, thats bulls**t

I'll ignore the underlying condescension and agree with you. I should not be awarded a degree I did not earn. Schools grant degrees, not licensing exams or residencies.

 

[Red Beard]

im not really sure how many MD's are willing to change their degrees to MD,DO....I for one dont want to, I worked hard to get where I am, i can pretty much say what none of my classmates are open to having DO in their title, nor any other MD school open to having their students have DO titles.

I don't think that is what is being discussed here. The idea is that if an MD student wished to learn and practice OMM, there would be a pathway for that and the additional designation would denote it. Otherwise, no degree change.

I think you are right that very few MDs that would care to pursue additional osteopathic training, but there are some. We've had MDs trained in OMM involved in instruction at my school, for example. Also, my own MD FP doctor told me before I even applied to medical school that if he had known about osteopathic medicine or had access to OMM training he would have pursued it when he was younger. I can see perhaps a significant interest from primary care docs, for example, who might want to add OMM as a billable service to their increasingly limitted practices. So, while probably few in number, I would speculate there would at least be some interest from the side of MDs in earning what would amount to an osteopathic credential. So, mandatory degree change, but access to additional knowledge and expertise, and corresponding degree designation, if so desired. Sort of like MD/MPH, MD/PhD, etc.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

So, while probably few in number, I would speculate there would at least be some interest from the side of MDs in earning what would amount to an osteopathic credential.

There would be many, specifically those that want Ortho, Rads, NeuroSurg, etc. spots.

 

[Iquitos]

i have already sent a petition with my faculty advisor and classmates...why the hell should a DO who had lets say a 25 on their mcat, 3.2 gpa, no research, poor credentials be awarded an MD just because they completed an MD residency......i had to bust my *** studying and doing well to get where i am today, thats bulls**t

Calm down before you give yourself an aneurysm, those are some pretty low stats. I know my stats aren't near those listed and I turned down an MD school to go DO. In fact I personally know of a guy with a 42 that turned down full ride scholarships at several MD schools to go to a DO school. If you want to look at some MD stats, I know of a few people with 25-26's and one with a 21 that got into my state school. But this isn't about a stat war. You need to do more research before you start flaming and sending out petitions. This proposition would not convert all MD's to MDDO's. Only the MD's who want to learn OMM and attend an Osteopathic residency would become M.D.,D.O.'s.