DO - Degree Change ...

[ShyRem]

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Thank you all for being professional so far. I know it's hard to be professional when those who are talking to you are not.

🙂

 

[J1515]

The other side, for the most part, seems to be lashing out angrily and resorting to whatever means necessary to prevent any intelligent discussion of the topic.

Because this is embarassing. The allopathic forum(s) talk about study habits, classes, experiences, and clinical cases, while every 3 days the osteopathic forum has DO to MD or degree change threads. It is nauseating and I'm embarassed to call some of these people my colleagues, knowing that all they care about are their initials while they don't once mention the problem with uncontrolled DO school expansion or lack of quality residencies - as if our initials are the biggest problem facing the profession and should receive all of our attention.

 

[Iquitos]

It's interesting that anyone who so much as hints about the degree change on this forum gets shot down with blind fury by the people who don't want to change the degree. I'm alarmed that such individuals seem to think that character assassination is professional behavior.

I've never advocated the degree change, but I have to say that those in favor of it (here and in the current edition of the DO magazine) are, in my opinion, doing a better job of presenting their case in a logical (and rational) manner. The other side, for the most part, seems to be lashing out angrily and resorting to whatever means necessary to prevent any intelligent discussion of the topic.

I submit to you that there are probably many people who would like to see a degree change, but are too afraid to discuss it here because they don't want to be SCREAMED AT IN ALL CAPS, called names, or publicly insulted. I haven't read any posts where a proponent of degree change is hatefully flaming an individual poster for disagreeing with the concept. If someone's opinion on the matter differs from yours, please try to be mature enough to respectfully listen to it. However, if your opinion of me is that I'm a (insert your favorite dirty word), and you express that on this forum, be advised I might respond in kind. I hate bullies and that's what some of you are being.

👍 Well said.

 

[DocFox]

Because this is embarassing. The allopathic forum(s) talk about study habits, classes, experiences, and clinical cases, while every 3 days the osteopathic forum has DO to MD or degree change threads. It is nauseating and I'm embarassed to call some of these people my colleagues, knowing that all they care about are their initials while they don't once mention the problem with uncontrolled DO school expansion or lack of quality residencies - as if our initials are the biggest problem facing the profession and should receive all of our attention.

I used to agree with you until I noticed that the issue of the degree change had been put on the front page of the DO magazine I get in the mail. It must be a point of discussion for more DOs/DO students than the ones on SDN. When I saw that I thought that as a profession we had agreed about opening up a debate on this. Yes, their are more important things to work on but apparently the AOA thinks this is important enough to put on the cover of their magazine. I guess you gotta start somewhere and I am impressed that the AOA is actually exploring this option. It's a departure from what I have heard in the past about the AOA not being receptive to DOs and students.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Because this is embarassing. The allopathic forum(s) talk about study habits, classes, experiences, and clinical cases, while every 3 days the osteopathic forum has DO to MD or degree change threads. It is nauseating and I'm embarassed to call some of these people my colleagues, knowing that all they care about are their initials while they don't once mention the problem with uncontrolled DO school expansion or lack of quality residencies - as if our initials are the biggest problem facing the profession and should receive all of our attention.

I don't think anyone here is denying the fact that there are important issues such as uncontrolled expansion, lack of residencies, etc...

It has been mentioned many times that degree change is just one of the factors that should be considered in the near future in order to propel the 'osteopathic profession' forward.

I think that to many students, residents, and practicing DOs, changing things like the number and quality of OGME residencies is just not something they have any control over. Hell, it takes massive collaboration between hospital groups, universities, and the state and federal governments to make new residency programs.

Sure, we can cry out about how these things need improving. It's no secret that these are problems that need to be addressed, and they are being addressed. I can't waltz into a hospital and whip up a residency program, or get up in COCA's face and force them to stop accrediting schools. I can, however, start a resolution in regards to degree designation and send it to the HOD, or pitch an idea to my state legislature regarding degree designations in hopes to get new state licensing laws put in place.

Lastly, it's not like there is a finite pool of resources that is being wasted by heeding the idea of degree change. People are going to spend their time discussing what they are interested in. If they aren't particularly interested in discussing how to improve OGME right now, they're not going to even if degree change wasn't an issue.

And for argument's sake, lets say there IS a finite pool of resources that is being wasted, by that logic you are contributing to the problem by arguing this down and not focusing your resources on other problems. What have you done for the OGME problem lately?

 

[MichiganDO]

If were going to change the degree it must be to M.D.o .
No MD is going to stand for an osteopathic physician to practice with MD,DO. We don't have 2 degrees.

Personally, I beleive the professions should merge; they are the same entity. Anyone who sees our training as different or superior is simply over exaggerating the differences in these 2 professions. DOs gained full practice rights and now we practice exactly as MDs. Not that hard to understand.

The greatest concern to us all should be the increasing numbers and practice rights of mid line providers - DNPs, PAs, NDs, ect. - and where DOs will fall amongst 21st century health care workers.

MBBSs practice with MD for this exact reason- so the public fully understands their practice rights and education. Why osteopathic medicine opposes changing its designation for this same purpose, I don't understand.

 

[MaximusD]

I don't want to enter the maxipad-mann debate, but I'm a little sick of people pulling the "reverence" card. We're not judges bound to stare decisis.

I challenge the notion that I should hold my tongue and genuflect in reverence to the school & profession that gave me this opportunity, as if I wouldn't have succeeded in my medical pursuit if it wasn't for osteopathic medicine.

Far too many people harbor the notion that going DO forever prohibits one from speaking out on matters involving our education, testing standards and policies, and that the debt we owe the osteopathic profession far exceeds any audacious desire to change those matters.

Respect is one thing, and I think everyone going DO respects the fact they will be physicians. But saying we are entering "THEIR" (all the DOs that came before us, et al ) profession, and consequently should toe the line, is ridiculous and downright cultish.

I am entering THE profession of "medicine," not one that a particular group of physicians claim ownership to.

I guess you can't be responsible for bad upbringing.

I blame your parents and all of your bad role models along the way.

It's not too late for you though. I would strongly suggest that you take a look in the mirror and realize that thousands of physicians busted their *** before you to progress our profession.

It is not cultish to respect and pay homage to those who came before us. I don't think you should respect AT Still... **** Still and **** all the crazies. I am talking about all of the honest and hard-working Dr. Joe's that came before you who enjoy being a DO and have worked their butts off to be a DO. Just because a few whiny premeds and med students think things should change doesn't mean that it's right.

Although the osteopathic profession is EXTREMELY SIMILAR to the allopathic profession, it is still different. You knew that coming in, and to try to change it now is childish. I won't justify your buyers remorse.

Let me put it to you like this... there are some buyers that like buying Saab, because it is a luxury car with a little bit of quirk (well it was before GM took over... i digress). Others prefer Volvo. The cars have similar ride characteristics, safety features, etc but they are still different cars.

It's reasonable to say, "we should just call our Saabs Volvos, because there is no real difference between the two." Every past Saab should be rebadged "Volvo" and there will be no more Saabs produced.

The reality is that many people past and present want a Saab even if the difference between their Saab and a Volvo is subtle at best. Just because you bought a Saab and would like to rebadge it a Volvo, doesn't mean the rest of the profession has to support you or even put up with your nonsense. You CHOSE a Saab, and that isn't anyone else's fault except yours.

 

[J1515]

I don't think anyone here is denying the fact that there are important issues such as uncontrolled expansion, lack of residencies, etc...

I think that to many students, residents, and practicing DOs, changing things like the number and quality of OGME residencies is just not something they have any control over. Hell, it takes massive collaboration between hospital groups, universities, and the state and federal governments to make new residency programs.

So then where are the petitions for opening new residencies? Where are the daily threads? Sorry, I don't buy it. If you think changing our degree designation isn't going to take massive coolaboration then you've got another thing coming. Every law will have to be rewritten, every hospital will have to rewrite their policies, not to mention all of the organizations that will have to agree to it (which will never happen, so this is all a ridiculous waste of time - an argument being made by people who wish they had gotten an MD, and yes, I am being sucked into it). If people put this much thought and planning into their education at the undergrad level then maybe they would've had the grades and MCAT to get that holy MD degree. Is that last statement harsh and offensive? Yes it is. But it's the truth. DO (my degree) is a "second best choice" for many people. Therefore, the only people whose opinion should count here are the ones who didn't use DO as a backup.

Here's an experiment for you. Start a thread talking about expanding osteopathic residencies and ways to fill more slots. I guarantee you it will sink to the bottom of the page within 3 days while all these ridiculous degree changing threads will last for weeks.

 

[bth7]

Although the osteopathic profession is EXTREMELY SIMILAR to the allopathic profession, it is still different. You knew that coming in, and to try to change it now is childish. I won't justify your buyers remorse.

Skip the personal attacks. The only childish attitudes being expressed here are yours, who is so threatened by someone disagreeing with him that he needs to call that person "childish" just because they have a different experience.

Buyer remorse? This is how you casually dismiss others opinions? By comparing this to renaming a car manufacturer? Did you even read the responses here?

There are a lot of reasonable opinions being expressed here, on both sides of the equation. Your characterizations of anyone who disagrees with you as "chilidish" not withstanding.

bth

 

[MaximusD]

Skip the personal attacks. The only childish attitudes being expressed here are yours, who is so threatened by someone disagreeing with him that he needs to call that person "childish" just because they have a different experience.

Buyer remorse? This is the how you dismiss others opinions? Did you even read the responses here?

There are a lot of reasonable opinions being expressed here, on both sides of the equation. Your characterizations of anyone who disagrees with you as "chilidish" not withstanding.

bth

bth, your assertion that an inherently misguided train of thought is justified by popular support is ridiculous. A lot of DOs and pre-DOs are going to jump onto this bandwagon. I can see the allure.

The fact remains that it is undeniably motivated by the wrong reasons.

A debate about ending the osteopathic profession altogether is probably better motivated. If you consider yourself to be an osteopathic physician and you attended an osteopathic school which you knew for a fact gave out "DO" degrees, you should be ashamed that you are trying to alter that after the fact. I realize that my opinions and viewpoints will not be popular in this thread, but you guys need to be scolded, IMO.

Since JP isn't here to do it, I will fill in.

 

[cyclohexanol]

So then where are the petitions for opening new residencies? Where are the daily threads? Sorry, I don't buy it. If you think changing our degree designation isn't going to take massive coolaboration then you've got another thing coming. Every law will have to be rewritten, every hospital will have to rewrite their policies, not to mention all of the organizations that will have to agree to it (which will never happen, so this is all a ridiculous waste of time - an argument being made by people who wish they had gotten an MD, and yes, I am being sucked into it). If people put this much thought and planning into their education at the undergrad level then maybe they would've had the grades and MCAT to get that holy MD degree. Is that last statement harsh and offensive? Yes it is. But it's the truth. DO (my degree) is a "second best choice" for many people. Therefore, the only people whose opinion should count here are the ones who didn't use DO as a backup.

Here's an experiment for you. Start a thread talking about expanding osteopathic residencies and ways to fill more slots. I guarantee you it will sink to the bottom of the page within 3 days while all these ridiculous degree changing threads will last for weeks.

I never said changing the degree (or changing state laws to allow any licensed physician to use MD) wouldn't require massive collaboration as well. I'm just stating that to many, it seems like something that can be accomplished. The details of planning and implementing such a goal aren't all that important apparently because it SEEMS like it can be done.

And before you go hating on, insulting, and alienating those who are in favor of a change, maybe consider the idea that they are greater supporters of the osteopathic profession than you. Maybe they had MD acceptances and turned them down for DO because of OMM or the philosophy. However, in their eyes, maybe designation change ranks up there with other issues in order of importance because to them, the osteopathic profession is great, but is hindered by its lack of public acknowledgment. It may not be the truth for many, but for some it probably is. Either way, there is no reason to be abrasive and insulting. If you disagree, formulate your retorts in a more proactive manner.

Lastly, I don't need to test your hypothesis. I know that discussions regarding improving residencies and halting new school expansions sink more rapidly than degree change ideas (although there have been some very heated discussions regarding RVU in regards to new school expansion). I also acknowledge that as a result of that trend, degree change is a hot topic with ardent supporters on both sides, thus warranting open discussion. I'm game, I just don't want to see the discussion ruined by either side.

 

[IDBasco]

So then where are the petitions for opening new residencies? Where are the daily threads? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Here's an experiment for you. Start a thread talking about expanding osteopathic residencies and ways to fill more slots. I guarantee you it will sink to the bottom of the page within 3 days while all these ridiculous degree changing threads will last for weeks.

This is so true. Frankly, I doubt anyone that has responded to this thread has much idea of what it does or doesn't take to open a new residency. In my opinion, though, that is what the AOA should be spending its time working for and advocating. Hell, at least try to push for dual accreditation or something truly worthwhile.

 

[newbie04]

Since JP isn't here to do it, I will fill in.

🙄

I noticed you've been "trying too hard" in your posts... you're a joke. Please don't ruin this thread.

 

[J1515]

And before you go hating on, insulting, and alienating those who are in favor of a change, maybe consider the idea that they are greater supporters of the osteopathic profession than you. Maybe they had MD acceptances and turned them down for DO because of OMM or the philosophy. However, in their eyes, maybe designation change ranks up there with other issues in order of importance because to them, the osteopathic profession is great, but is hindered by its lack of public acknowledgment.

And these are the people I will have rational discussions with. <this next comment is not directed towards you personally> Show me an MCAT above 28, a GPA above a 3.5, and/or an acceptance to an allopathic school that you turned down and then yes, I will say your argument has the best interests of the entire osteopathic profession in mind. Harsh, but it is the truth in most cases. I'm not saying one person is going to be a better doctor than another based on numbers. That's a whole 'nother box of worms. But the opinions of all these pre-meds who are on their third application cycle and can't break a 23 on the MCAT that have convinced themselves that "DO isn't so bad", or the first year DO students who always wanted an MD after their name, are worthless.

 

[Iquitos]

But the opinions of all these pre-meds who are on their third application cycle and can't break a 23 on the MCAT that have convinced themselves that "DO isn't so bad", or the first year DO students who always wanted an MD after their name, are worthless.

I don't know anyone at my school that fits this mold, nor did I interview any 2012's that had an MCAT lower than 28.

 

[endocardium]

So then where are the petitions for opening new residencies? Where are the daily threads? Sorry, I don't buy it. If you think changing our degree designation isn't going to take massive coolaboration then you've got another thing coming. Every law will have to be rewritten, every hospital will have to rewrite their policies, not to mention all of the organizations that will have to agree to it (which will never happen, so this is all a ridiculous waste of time - an argument being made by people who wish they had gotten an MD, and yes, I am being sucked into it). If people put this much thought and planning into their education at the undergrad level then maybe they would've had the grades and MCAT to get that holy MD degree. Is that last statement harsh and offensive? Yes it is. But it's the truth. DO (my degree) is a "second best choice" for many people. Therefore, the only people whose opinion should count here are the ones who didn't use DO as a backup.

Here's an experiment for you. Start a thread talking about expanding osteopathic residencies and ways to fill more slots. I guarantee you it will sink to the bottom of the page within 3 days while all these ridiculous degree changing threads will last for weeks.

This is so true. Frankly, I doubt anyone that has responded to this thread has much idea of what it does or doesn't take to open a new residency. In my opinion, though, that is what the AOA should be spending its time working for and advocating. Hell, at least try to push for dual accreditation or something truly worthwhile.

Yeah, I think this is true as well, and I agree with the thought that the AOA should be spending it's energy fixing and improving GME instead of worring about cosmetic enhancements. If the machine don't work right, making it look prettier isn't going to make it go. Sorry.

 

[J1515]

I don't know anyone at my school that fits this mold, nor did I interview any 2012's that had an MCAT lower than 28.

Then I would be very interested to hear what these students have to say, given that it appear many are going to choose DO or MD.

 

[IDBasco]

Then I would be very interested to hear what these students have to say, given that it appear many are going to choose DO or MD.

You already have. 🙂

 

[amindwalker]

you guys need to be scolded, IMO.

Since JP isn't here to do it, I will fill in.

I respect your opinion and thank you for sharing it. I disagree. The right to free speech is backed by the constitution. There are other, more important things upon which we should focus. Such as displaying a professional attitude. For example; what I would like to say is:

("Oh yeah? Well you're ugly!!!" Wow! Hey guys, he's onto something. Insulting people I've never met does make me feel superior. It's also really easy to do over the internet where I don't have to worry about my personal safety.)

Fortunately, I would never want to embarass the profession by saying such a thing.

 

[Iquitos]

Then I would be very interested to hear what these students have to say, given that it appear many are going to choose DO or MD.

Like many have mentioned previously, there are a variety of reasons people choose MD over DO and I am not going to turn this tread into one of those discussions. Seach the pre-med forums for that. Everyone I study with got into at least one MD school and one guy I know had full ride scholarships at 2 or 3 MD schools (42MCAT). The only MD school I would have gone to would have been my state school. Not because of better quality education but due to the geographic region (family ties) and due to the lower cost.

 

[MaximusD]

🙄

I noticed you've been "trying too hard" in your posts... you're a joke. Please don't ruin this thread.

Your combination of logic, wit, and SDN cred are unsurpassed. I apologize. 🙄

I respect your opinion and thank you for sharing it. I disagree. The right to free speech is backed by the constitution. There are other, more important things upon which we should focus. Such as displaying a professional attitude. For example; what I would like to say is:

("Oh yeah? Well you're ugly!!!" Wow! Hey guys, he's onto something. Insulting people I've never met does make me feel superior. It's also really easy to do over the internet where I don't have to worry about my personal safety.)

Fortunately, I would never want to embarass the profession by saying such a thing.

I'm not sure that your post demonstrated any respect for what I have to say. In fact, I think you mocked me. LOL personal safety? I dont think I even come close to trying to be anonymous on this forum. I go to PCOM, my name is MaximusD, and I have given my past (PSU) and my future (USAF physician..) Give me a break.

I know that I am correct and that the whole premise behind this thread is complete and utter BS. I have no doubt that you disagree... anyone can disagree. The fact is that opinions are like a$$holes... everyone has one.

You ENROLLED (voluntarily) at a DO-granting institution. Then, you PAID (voluntarily) to not only further your education but to keep the school running. You CHOSE to take a seat away from someone who has no problem with receiving a DO degree. You should be ashamed of yourselves, and I will not back off of this position. You ARE, IN FACT, acting like children, and I do not believe that your assertions deserve any more credit than I would give a child that is throwing a temper tantrum in public.

I hadn't posted in here, because I didn't want to come across as someone who judges others. But I think that your actions deserved to be shot down vehemently. Be proud of the profession you chose. MDO, MOD, DMO, or whatever you want to call it is just an attempt to justify vanity. There is no competent DO that has trouble finding patients...

A simple "A DO is very similar to an MD" is NOT hard at all and patients will understand. Or do you think that only doctors are intelligent enough to understand the fact that there are two equivalent degrees?

 

[J1515]

Like many have mentioned previously, there are a variety of reasons people choose MD over DO and I am not going to turn this tread into one of those discussions. Seach the pre-med forums for that. Everyone I study with got into at least one MD school and one guy I know had full ride scholarships at 2 or 3 MD schools (42MCAT). The only MD school I would have gone to would have been my state school. Not because of better quality education but due to the geographic region (family ties) and due to the lower cost.

And that is exactly the same reason why I chose a DO school. Unfortunately, the statistics for people entering most ofour schools don't lie, regardless of how many 42 MCATers you know at your school.

Regardless, those people who chose a DO over MD, you knew what you were getting into. For those who had no other choice, just thank God that you are going to become a physician at all, seeing as how if they were all MD schools you might have never gotten in anywhere period.

 

[amindwalker]

I'm not sure that your post demonstrated any respect for what I have to say. In fact, I think you mocked me. LOL personal safety? I dont think I even come close to trying to be anonymous on this forum. I go to PCOM, my name is MaximusD, and I have given my past (PSU) and my future (USAF physician..) Give me a break.

I never said you were anonymous. I went to Drury, I go to LECOM & I am a 2LT. Erie is a short drive away. I have MMA mats set up in my basement if you would like to come work out. I'm a bit rusty since school started and I'm about 10 lbs above my normal fight weight (currently at 199), so you'll have to take it easy on me. I'm 39, I like The Doors, and my favorite color is blue. I am not mocking you.

 

[cyclohexanol]

And that is exactly the same reason why I chose a DO school. Unfortunately, the statistics for people entering most ofour schools don't lie, regardless of how many 42 MCATers you know at your school.

Regardless, those people who chose a DO over MD, you knew what you were getting into. For those who had no other choice, just thank God that you are going to become a physician at all, seeing as how if they were all MD schools you might have never gotten in anywhere period.

So now you have some people who have met your criteria as far as stats and choice of school; >28, >3.5 and DO over MD, right? I thought you said you were willing to listen to them, but it seems as though you are just as dismissive.

Isn't it possible that despite knowing what they're getting into, they strive to advance the status quo? Knowing what you're getting into and not accepting the status quo are not mutually exclusive, you can in fact do both at the same time.

 

[MaximusD]

I never said you were anonymous. I went to Drury, I go to LECOM & I am a 2LT. Erie is a short drive away. I have MMA mats set up in my basement if you would like to come work out. I'm a bit rusty since school started and I'm about 10 lbs above my normal fight weight (currently at 199), so you'll have to take it easy on me. I'm 39, I like The Doors, and my favorite color is blue. I am not mocking you.

Fair enough. Guess I'm touchy bc I expect everyone here to disagree with me. What branch of service did you choose... I'm still waiting to hear back about my USAF app.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Wrong.

FACT: Studies show that the vast majority of allopathic physicians have a favorable attitude towards manual medicine, and have no problem recommending it to their patients.

• Physicians' and patients' attitudes toward manual medicine: implications for continuing medical education.
• Allopathic family medicine residents can learn osteopathic manipulation techniques in a 1-month elective.

Pre-meds: be very careful who you listen to in this discussion. People make claims without backing them up with verified sources.

Interesting discussion about the degree change idea in this months, DO magazine. Certainly more articulate than the discussion here, which quickly devolves into " If you don't want a 'DO' after your name, don't go to an osteopathic school." For those of you reading, their are plenty of us who are very into the osteopathic profession who want to discuss the degree change, and we don't need to hide behind an SDN avatar to do it.

Check it out: DO degree change, May 2008 (These are the responses to the original article on the degree change. You can read the original article here: Letter Perfect, Can a new degree lead to more recognition for DOs?.)

bth

If you read the methodology of the study, you would see the potential deficits of the data collection. 1. Propensity for self selection, 2. Context of the conference not known (just "CME" but possibly relating to OMM), 3. Sampling population (just primary care physicians, not all physicians).

 

[DannMann99]

You know for a while here, we were having some pretty decent discussion.🙄

Unfortunately it looks like the thread has become a pissing party.

👎MaximusD, you think you're high and mighty, and it embarrases me alittle bit knowing you're going to be a PCOM graduate. 👎

Everyone has their opinions, as you even said though you blew the quote...
opinions are like *******s, everyone has one and they all stink!😀

Your opinion is no better or meaningful or coherent than anyone elses.

I love the fact that i'm going to be a DO but its other DO's like this with their closed minds that aggravate me.

I could care less what my initials say after my name. As i've already stated. I love how these opponents of degree change bitch about how we should be talking about better the degree in other areas but honestly, how many threads have you started to better the degree?

Sorry for the rant.

-Dan

 

[amindwalker]

Fair enough. Guess I'm touchy bc I expect everyone here to disagree with me. What branch of service did you choose... I'm still waiting to hear back about my USAF app.

Army Guard. It is the best deal by far. You get full time active duty pay (2LT = 2500 USD/month) while in medical school + housing allowance, subsistence allowance, free health insurance for you and your dependants, free health care at any military medical facility (should you need it), free space available flights, a $75,000 sign on bonus. After 2 years, you get promoted to 1LT, so you will then outrank all of your class mates (including the guys who are currently a year ahead of you) and you will get a $1000/month pay increase. They do not pay for school directly, they just pay off your loans when you graduate (currently $50,000 but the word is that it is going up to $250,000). You cannot be deployed during school or residency. You have to do a civilian residency, and when you are finished, you owe them one weekend every 3 months for 3 years. After residency, you can be deployed, but only for 90 days every 2 years. It is a new program called ADSW, and it beats the shigella out of any other offer by far. PM me & I'll give you the recruiting officer's contact 411 (If you mention that I referred you, I will get some money). It may not be as glamorous as the Air Force, but it really is a better deal. I am still not mocking you. MD,DO rocks!

 

[bth7]

If you read the methodology of the study, you would see the potential deficits of the data collection. 1. Propensity for self selection, 2. Context of the conference not known (just "CME" but possibly relating to OMM), 3. Sampling population (just primary care physicians, not all physicians).

Here's some more for you to chew on:


Harvard faculty review of Osteopathic medicine
Harvard med manipulation CME for MD physicians
NYU med school list of evidence-based studies on manual therapy

The study you are referring to that supports your assertion "allopathic physicians are not interested in manual therapy" was published in which journal? Date? Author?

bth

 

[bth7]

Army Guard. It is the best deal by far. You get full time active duty pay (2LT = 2500 USD/month) + housing allowance, subsistence allowance, free health insurance for you and your dependants, free health care at any military medical facility (should you need it), free space available flights, a $75,000 sign on bonus. After 2 years, you get promoted to 1LT, so you will then outrank all of your class mates (including the guys who are currently a year ahead of you) and you will get a $1000/month pay increase. They do not pay for school directly, they just pay off your loans when you graduate (currently $50,000 but the word is that it is going up to $250,000). You cannot be deployed during school or residency. You have to do a civilian residency, and when you are finished, you owe them one weekend every 3 months for 3 years. After residency, you can be deployed, but only for 90 days every 2 years. It is a new program called ADSW, and it beats the shigella out of any other offer by far. PM me & I'll give you the recruiting officer's contact 411 (If you mention that I referred you, I will get some money). It may not be as glamorous as the Air Force, but it really is a better deal. I am still not mocking you. MD,DO rocks!

I'm looking at the NAVY. They are offering a special deal to the Class of 2009 only. 3 year commitment, 20,000$ signing bonus. Do you think the ARMY deal is really a lot better? I don't know how to compare between services.

Also, do you know anything about signing up before you match versus after you've already matched? Benefits / pitfalls of each ?

bth

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Army Guard. It is the best deal by far. You get full time active duty pay (2LT = 2500 USD/month) while in medical school + housing allowance, subsistence allowance, free health insurance for you and your dependants, free health care at any military medical facility (should you need it), free space available flights, a $75,000 sign on bonus. After 2 years, you get promoted to 1LT, so you will then outrank all of your class mates (including the guys who are currently a year ahead of you) and you will get a $1000/month pay increase. They do not pay for school directly, they just pay off your loans when you graduate (currently $50,000 but the word is that it is going up to $250,000). You cannot be deployed during school or residency. You have to do a civilian residency, and when you are finished, you owe them one weekend every 3 months for 3 years. After residency, you can be deployed, but only for 90 days every 2 years. It is a new program called ADSW, and it beats the shigella out of any other offer by far. PM me & I'll give you the recruiting officer's contact 411 (If you mention that I referred you, I will get some money). It may not be as glamorous as the Air Force, but it really is a better deal. I am still not mocking you. MD,DO rocks!

Im about to hijack the thread. But are you serious about this program(I am of course writing before I jump on google and do my own research), but it sounds like a great program. I was a signature away from signing up with the Army HPSP, until i was dissuaded by a good source. This option sounds really appealing which makes me think the army is getting desperate for physicians. One of my classmates signed up with the Air force Natl guard recently and got a $10 grand signing bonus. $75 grand ??--which is why i again ask, are you being serious?

 

[Taurus]

If were going to change the degree it must be to M.D.o .
No MD is going to stand for an osteopathic physician to practice with MD,DO. We don't have 2 degrees.

Personally, I beleive the professions should merge; they are the same entity. Anyone who sees our training as different or superior is simply over exaggerating the differences in these 2 professions. DOs gained full practice rights and now we practice exactly as MDs. Not that hard to understand.

The greatest concern to us all should be the increasing numbers and practice rights of mid line providers - DNPs, PAs, NDs, ect. - and where DOs will fall amongst 21st century health care workers.

MBBSs practice with MD for this exact reason- so the public fully understands their practice rights and education. Why osteopathic medicine opposes changing its designation for this same purpose, I don't understand.

Agreed. The AOA should merge with the AMA and all physicians should have "MD" behind their names because it's what the public knows.

Physicians, DO's and MD's, have a common threat. The DNP's, PA's, even pharmd's who are lobbying to practice medicine unsupervised. Read the Forbes and WSJ articles. That is what people should be discussing.

 

[amindwalker]

I'm talking about the Army National Guard, not the regular Army. You get commissioned into the Army Reserve and the State National Guard. I have heard a little about the new Navy deal, but I don't know much about it. From what you are saying, it seems to be the same time commitment, $75K (which comes after graduation and is spread over 3 years, but I have heard about some smaller bonus available immediately) is a bit more than $20K. The HPSP stipend this year goes up to $1,900/month, Guard pays $2,500/month for the first 2 years & then $3,500/month (current value) after that. Plus the housing allowance & subsistence allowance (I don't know how much yet, but it's adjusted for your area).

The big deal for anyone planning on going into a higher paying specialty like me (gas), you won't have to put in 4 years of post-residency active duty at the O-3/O-4 paygrade. For example; active duty gas passers in the military currently make about as much as a civilian FP doc, which isn't bad. But if your twin, the civilian gas passer, is earning $300K+/year with good benefits, he/she will earn perhaps $800K more than you over those 4 years.

So the way I see it, that's around $50K more during med school, $55K more bonus, the same pay during residency (STRAP program), + $800K total over 4 years after that. So I think an extra $900,000 because of the Guard is a better deal.

Please understand that I am eager to serve my country in a time of war, and I do not advocate ANYONE joining the military unless it is something that you really believe in. Would I do it for free, no. I do expect to get deployed one day, but we may not be at war 8 years from now when I will be deployable. Also, if you are set on going Navy, go Navy. I would have gone Navy, but they just couldn't come close to matching the Guard's offer, & I have a family.

 

[amindwalker]

Im about to hijack the thread. But are you serious about this program(I am of course writing before I jump on google and do my own research), but it sounds like a great program. I was a signature away from signing up with the Army HPSP, until i was dissuaded by a good source. This option sounds really appealing which makes me think the army is getting desperate for physicians. One of my classmates signed up with the Air force Natl guard recently and got a $10 grand signing bonus. $75 grand ??--which is why i again ask, are you being serious?

Yes, this is real. It just went through. I don't think you will find anything about it on the internet yet. PM me & I will give you contact 411, tell 'em I sent you. Perhaps this discussion belongs on another thread, so anyone else who is interested, just PM me.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled degree change blood feud.

 

[DannMann99]

Physicians, DO's and MD's, have a common threat. The DNP's, PA's, even pharmd's who are lobbying to practice medicine unsupervised. Read the Forbes and WSJ articles. That is what people should be discussing.

Wouldn't go so far as to demand everyone to have MD in their name alone...
but the future you predict would certainly be a bleak one. Im giving you're predicted future a 👎

 

[amindwalker]

Also, do you know anything about signing up before you match versus after you've already matched? Benefits / pitfalls of each ?

bth

Sorry, one more answer, the match doesn't matter. If you are going to be moving out of state for residency, you can join the Guard in your current state and then transfer when you need to. It's no problem. The guard however may not need your specialty. For example, they do not use anesthesiologists. I plan on going into anesthesiology, so they will use me as a flight surgeon. That's their default billet for docs whose specialty is not used by the Guard.

 

[J1515]

So now you have some people who have met your criteria as far as stats and choice of school; >28, >3.5 and DO over MD, right? I thought you said you were willing to listen to them, but it seems as though you are just as dismissive..

I am willing to listen. I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this ridiculous degree change is more important and deserves more attention than improving the quality of our residencies and stopping branch campuses from opening everywhere. Changing a thousand laws, hospital policies, and organizational legislation is certainly no easier than petitioning for the AOA to close some of these consistently unfilled residencies of poor quality or improving on them. Furthermore, it will not alter the way I treat patients one bit. How about petitioning the AOA to drop cranial from the curriculum?

Which will make me a better doctor and allow me to save more lives (which is why we all entered medicine in the first place)?:

A) Changing the letters after my name
B) Improving the quality of my education

I think the choice is clear. It's obvious. The allopathic world is laughing at us and I am ashamed to be associated with this nonsense.

 

[DannMann99]

I don't think anyone here is denying the fact that there are important issues such as uncontrolled expansion, lack of residencies, etc...

It has been mentioned many times that degree change is just one of the factors that should be considered in the near future in order to propel the 'osteopathic profession' forward.

I think that to many students, residents, and practicing DOs, changing things like the number and quality of OGME residencies is just not something they have any control over. Hell, it takes massive collaboration between hospital groups, universities, and the state and federal governments to make new residency programs.

Sure, we can cry out about how these things need improving. It's no secret that these are problems that need to be addressed, and they are being addressed. I can't waltz into a hospital and whip up a residency program, or get up in COCA's face and force them to stop accrediting schools. I can, however, start a resolution in regards to degree designation and send it to the HOD, or pitch an idea to my state legislature regarding degree designations in hopes to get new state licensing laws put in place.

Lastly, it's not like there is a finite pool of resources that is being wasted by heeding the idea of degree change. People are going to spend their time discussing what they are interested in. If they aren't particularly interested in discussing how to improve OGME right now, they're not going to even if degree change wasn't an issue.

And for argument's sake, lets say there IS a finite pool of resources that is being wasted, by that logic you are contributing to the problem by arguing this down and not focusing your resources on other problems. What have you done for the OGME problem lately?

For you J1515.

 

[DannMann99]

Clearly not every decision that is made in the medical profession is designed to make doctors better. Despite what you may believe it is, in fact, possible to make a collective organizational decision that has nothing to do with education or quality of training as it pertains to improving physician quality.

How did changing the degree from Doctor of Osteopathy to Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine make us better doctors?

Originally, allo med schools in the US granted the MB degree. How did changing MB to MD make them better doctors?

Again, not everything we do or decide upon needs to make us better doctors.

For you again J1515

 

[scpod]

What will the future really be like if you spend all your time and effort on this silly little name change? Well...there won't be enough osteopathic residencies left because they'll have mostly dissappeared. And you won't have allopathic residencies either, because once the allopathic schools increase their ranks by 30% (more than 5000 new graduates per year) you won't be getting those either. What will you be doing? You'll be sitting around with your shiny new MDO degree, fiiling out Subway or KFC job aplications, wondering how you're gonna pay back that quarter of a million you spent on medical school. You'll wonder then if maybe you should have spent the time and effort on GME instead of MDO.

Face it. Until you're a DO, with degree in hand, you don't even have the right to change the degree. You just can't change something that you haven't even earned yourself. If the 60,000 DOs who have actually earned the degree want to change it, then I say let them. The problem is that they don't care. They're too busy taking care of sick people to care about that. Yes, you'll find a couple who'll complain about it, and a few who hide from it in utter shame, but they are a very small minority.

What good does a name change do for you when you get out of med school in four years and don't have a good quality residency to go to?

Person 1: "So, I see that MDO name tag. Is that kind of like an MD?"

Person 2: "Yes, I'm a doctor just like an MD, only I can manipulate people's muscles and bones too."

Person 1: "Wow! That's cool! So....how do you like working at KFC? I hear the pay is pretty good."

Person 2: "It's great. I know a guy in the class ahead of me and he got to be an assistant manager in less than 6 months! But I'm only here temporarily. I'm gonna apply for a FP residency in Peoria when they open it in a few years"

Person 1: "Great! Can I have some extra gravy with that?"

Person 2: "Sure. Thanks and come back again."

 

[DannMann99]

I used to agree with you until I noticed that the issue of the degree change had been put on the front page of the DO magazine I get in the mail. It must be a point of discussion for more DOs/DO students than the ones on SDN. When I saw that I thought that as a profession we had agreed about opening up a debate on this. Yes, their are more important things to work on but apparently the AOA thinks this is important enough to put on the cover of their magazine. I guess you gotta start somewhere and I am impressed that the AOA is actually exploring this option. It's a departure from what I have heard in the past about the AOA not being receptive to DOs and students.

This is for you scpod

I am getting tired of people who don't read, and then decide to take the thread into the realm of rediculousness.

 

[scpod]

But the AOA isn't actually exploring this option. If you read the article it really puts a negative spin on the whole idea. They put it on the front cover because it is news-- just news. There are no proposals by the board of governors to explore the option like there are with real issues. The article begins by quoting Gevitz about how DOs need to retain their distinctiveness and makes the name changers sound like they are a fringe element:

As the profession explores the value of core osteopathic principlesthrough the deliberate process of scientific investigation, some DOs and osteopathic medical students want to jump-start greater public awareness of their profession.

The AOA isn't discussing it at all. They are downplaying it.

 

[endocardium]

But the AOA isn't actually exploring this option. If you raead the article it really puts a negative spin on the whole idea. They put it on the front cover because it is news-- just news. There are no proposals by the board of governors to explore the option like there are with real issues. The article begins by quoting Gevitz about how DOs need to retain their distinctiveness and makes the name changers sound like they are a fringe element:

As the profession explores the value of core osteopathic principlesthrough the deliberate process of scientific investigation, some DOs and osteopathic medical students want to jump-start greater public awareness of their profession.

The AOA isn't discussing it at all. They are downplaying it.

So there we have it, in writing, from the AOA. So what were some folks saying about reading comprehension? Yeah. How do you like them apples?

 

[DocFox]

But the AOA isn't actually exploring this option. If you read the article it really puts a negative spin on the whole idea. They put it on the front cover because it is news-- just news. There are no proposals by the board of governors to explore the option like there are with real issues. The article begins by quoting Gevitz about how DOs need to retain their distinctiveness and makes the name changers sound like they are a fringe element:



The AOA isn't discussing it at all. They are downplaying it.

I didn't get the same negative spin you got after reading it. It presents both sides of the argument citing comments/suggestions/warnings from each. Do I need to cite specific lines or can we agree on that? The article actually ends with the proposal from one DO to change it to the MD,DO degree.

I never said the AOA had legislation or proposals in the works to do this, but this has been stated in this thread and seems like it might be reasonable to assume. First we had the cover with, and I quote: "Letter perfects? Can a new degree lead to more respect, recognition for DOs?". Next, I don't know about you but at my school we had a big meeting called and discussed this idea. A vote was taken and results were to be presented at some national conference this summer (sorry I don't know exactly which organization though).

I just don't see how having students vote on it is downplaying it.

 

[DocFox]

Oh yeah and thanks for questioning my reading comprehension, that really adds to the discussion.

 

[MaximusD]

You know for a while here, we were having some pretty decent discussion.🙄

Unfortunately it looks like the thread has become a pissing party.

👎MaximusD, you think you're high and mighty, and it embarrases me alittle bit knowing you're going to be a PCOM graduate. 👎

Everyone has their opinions, as you even said though you blew the quote...
opinions are like *******s, everyone has one and they all stink!😀

Your opinion is no better or meaningful or coherent than anyone elses.

I love the fact that i'm going to be a DO but its other DO's like this with their closed minds that aggravate me.

I could care less what my initials say after my name. As i've already stated. I love how these opponents of degree change bitch about how we should be talking about better the degree in other areas but honestly, how many threads have you started to better the degree?

Sorry for the rant.

-Dan

Embarass you? LOL says the guy who hasn't begun their medical career. You are flat-out ridiculous.

THERE WERE NO GOOD POINTS. This is all based on a false premise. There will be no degree change. It isn't an option. You chose this degree and the powers-that-be will NEVER legitimately and realistically consider changing it... at least until we are consumed by the MDs. Everyone here CHOSE a DO. No one took you by the wrist and forced you to sign the matriculation agreement. No one forced you to apply through AACOMAS... I can at least respect the third and fourth years, because at least they've earned the right to debate this. You have no credibility to suggest a degree change, because you haven't even begun to bust your *** to earn one.

 

[endocardium]

Oh yeah and thanks for questioning my reading comprehension, that really adds to the discussion.

You're welcome, but I wasn't talking to you specifically, but to the ones who continually express/question that there is some kind of defect in our reading ability, or comprehension, throughout this thread (you know who you are). Actually, you essentially stated what I was thinking... Thanks. 👍

 

[DannMann99]

Maxi,

Embarass you? LOL says the guy who hasn't begun their medical career. You are flat-out ridiculous.

Yes. Your closed mind and brazen attitude embarasses me. I would hope I was going to a school with adults mature enough to hold a decent debate.

There will be no degree change. It isn't an option.

Apparently its becoming an option if people are debating it this hotly

Everyone here CHOSE a DO. No one took you by the wrist and forced you to sign the matriculation agreement. No one forced you to apply through AACOMAS...

Again, I have stated numerous times that I am proud to be entering the DO profession. No one at all forced me into it, don't worry tiger.

I can at least respect the third and fourth years, because at least they've earned the right to debate this.

Dude, you haven't even finished OMS1 and you seriously think the leg your standing on is better then mine? Honestly, you are what... about 6 months deeper into the profession then I?

You have no credibility to suggest a degree change, because you haven't even begun to bust your *** to earn one.

I have no credibility? again, see above. Atleast I'm lodging some decent and coherent thoughts.

Dude, its like you're trying too hard at this. Its like you feel embarassed yourself to be a DO and are trying to overcompensate. Chill out dude. People have opinions, and they have the right to express them without attacks on their character, or demeaning them for entering the profession.

I'm sure you're an awesome guy but honestly, is this how you deal with people in the real world? 🙄

Grow up.

I'm giving maxi the thumbs down: 👎 cause he ain't cool.

-Dan

p.s.: I can't wait to see you in about 3 months. :]

 

[amindwalker]

I still say forget the degree change. Just let the DOs who want to use the MD credential (like the Brits in this country with the MBBS degree) do so. If you want to proudly display your DO degree, for which you obviously worked very hard to earn, do that. Problem solved.

I don't know about you, but med school is really frakin' hard, as long as they don't change the degree to RNO or DUMB, I'll take what they give me. Personally, I think all heated arguments should be resolved in the cage. I volunteer my services as the ref.

 

[endocardium]

Dude, you haven't even finished OMS1 and you seriously think the leg your standing on is better then mine? Honestly, you are what... about 6 months deeper into the profession then I?

It's more like 9 months, and yes, I would vote that his experience is greater than your own. He has been exposed to remarkably more than you, in terms of osteopathic medical education, by virtue of direct experience. I didn't want to address your position relative to medical education here, but since you put it on the table, I'll comment... As a pre-medical student, generally speaking, of course (because there are always exceptions), you don't have very much of clue what you are talking about, and you can't really know until you are on the other side of the door. Right now, you are viewing things from an imaginary, hypothetical point of view, based on limited information that you have gather from secondary sources. Once you matriculate and experience the rigors, ups and downs, pain, and craziness of medical school, and become exposed to people on the inside of the process, your perspective may change. I know mine did. It was an awaking experience.

I don't wish to minimize your POV, because your view point is as valid as anyone elses, and certainly you have the right to express it (as long as it doesn't impinge on the rights of others). However, please realize that you are still standing on the outside of the door at this point in time. Congratulations on your acceptance, but you have a long way to go...