DO degree for military medicine

[Nylesor]

Just wanted the opinion of people in this forum on Osteopathic Medicine in Military Medicine. If I don't get into USUHS, I'm really leaning toward DO schools. I've heard some good things, such as OMT being used to alleviate pain without medication, which would be beneficial as a flight surgeon since the pilots wouldn't lose flight time. Opinions?

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[Spang]

Just wanted the opinion of people in this forum on Osteopathic Medicine in Military Medicine. If I don't get into USUHS, I'm really leaning toward DO schools. I've heard some good things, such as OMT being used to alleviate pain without medication, which would be beneficial as a flight surgeon since the pilots wouldn't lose flight time. Opinions?

I think the military is great for DO's. I personally know one who went into optho, one into ortho and one into urology, all of which are pretty competitive on the outside. As far as the rubbing my back so I could still fly, I don't see you getting many takers on that in the ready-room, unless, on the off-chance, you happen to resemble, say, Jennifer Garner?!

Good luck on the application thing!


spang

 

[Nylesor]

I think the military is great for DO's. I personally know one who went into optho, one into ortho and one into urology, all of which are pretty competitive on the outside. As far as the rubbing my back so I could still fly, I don't see you getting many takers on that in the ready-room, unless, on the off-chance, you happen to resemble, say, Jennifer Garner?!

Good luck on the application thing!


spang

Well, I've gotten Michelle Rodriguez and Angelina Jolie. Will that do?

 

[Informer]

Just wanted the opinion of people in this forum on Osteopathic Medicine in Military Medicine. If I don't get into USUHS, I'm really leaning toward DO schools. I've heard some good things, such as OMT being used to alleviate pain without medication, which would be beneficial as a flight surgeon since the pilots wouldn't lose flight time. Opinions?

I actually know Henry Lau, the current USAF Thunderbirds flight surgeon, who is also an osteopathic physician. He uses OMT on a daily basis

 

[Nylesor]

I actually know Henry Lau, the current USAF Thunderbirds flight surgeon, who is also an osteopathic physician. He uses OMT on a daily basis

Wow. That's great! Does that mean military physicians don't have the time constraints that would limit use of OMT?

 

[usnavdoc]

Wow. That's great! Does that mean military physicians don't have the time constraints that would limit use of OMT?

No time constraints. You can work all night if you so desire. Remember that time constraints may limit your involvement with patients but they also allow you to see other patients in a timely fashion.

Im not a DO, but many of my friends here at Camp Lejeune are, and the few that practice OMT usually do it as a scheduled appointment not during sick call, unless its an acute issue.

I guess there are alot of reasons for the large numbers of DOs in the military. But one of the benefits to them is the ease of applying to programs which would typically result in a closed door.

I dont understand why you are applying only to USUHS and now you are considering applying only to DO schools next year? Why are you not interested in other allopathic programs this year and next?

As a side note... I do like making fun of my DO friends when they get to talking about treating disease states with OMT, Nothing personal just a friendly MD vs DO thing with my friends. Im the outnumbered one BTW

 

[Nylesor]

No time constraints. You can work all night if you so desire. Remember that time constraints may limit your involvement with patients but they also allow you to see other patients in a timely fashion.

Im not a DO, but many of my friends here at Camp Lejeune are, and the few that practice OMT usually do it as a scheduled appointment not during sick call, unless its an acute issue.

I guess there are alot of reasons for the large numbers of DOs in the military. But one of the benefits to them is the ease of applying to programs which would typically result in a closed door.

I dont understand why you are applying only to USUHS and now you are considering applying only to DO schools next year? Why are you not interested in other allopathic programs this year and next?

As a side note... I do like making fun of my DO friends when they get to talking about treating disease states with OMT, Nothing personal just a friendly MD vs DO thing with my friends. Im the outnumbered one BTW

I'm applying to both MD and DO schools, but leaning toward DO for the OMT (I like the hands-on stuff). I also love the military and wish there was a military DO school, but since there is none, USUHS will have to do. Basically, USUHS is the only MD school I would pick over DO right now.

 

[AFSmiley]

I was talking to a retired Army Col. (and DO) a few weeks ago about this same issue. He had quite the career, even sat on the USUHS admissions board for some time. He said DO's do just fine in the military; everybody's a 'Doc'. He also mentioned that Ronald Blanck a DO, recently retired from his last position as Army Surgeon General, is now President of the University of North Texas Health Science Center (TCOM). There you have it folks!!!


Merry Christmas,
JMPeffer

 

[usnavdoc]

I'm applying to both MD and DO schools, but leaning toward DO for the OMT (I like the hands-on stuff). I also love the military and wish there was a military DO school, but since there is none, USUHS will have to do. Basically, USUHS is the only MD school I would pick over DO right now.

Well to each his own. My advice then would be to forget about USUHS and go to a DO school and if you are set on the military then use HPSP. Allows you more freedom to do what you want.

 

[grayce79]

I thought about DO school as a premed, but was warned against it. Osteopathic medicine has a great philosophy, but you can take that philosophy with you and go to an MD school. All of the DOs I have ever worked with have been excellent. However, there is still a lot of discrimination out there when it comes to residency programs. Some programs will not take DOs (although they would never admit that in public). I think that going to an MD school just gives you more options as far as residency goes.

 

[usnavdoc]

I thought about DO school as a premed, but was warned against it. Osteopathic medicine has a great philosophy, but you can take that philosophy with you and go to an MD school. All of the DOs I have ever worked with have been excellent. However, there is still a lot of discrimination out there when it comes to residency programs. Some programs will not take DOs (although they would never admit that in public). I think that going to an MD school just gives you more options as far as residency goes.

Very true in the civilian world. If you are doing your residency in the Military as the OP stated then it simply doesnt matter.

 

[Nylesor]

Very true in the civilian world. If you are doing your residency in the Military as the OP stated then it simply doesnt matter.

I've heard about the DO degree limiting you for residencies. I'm not aiming for anything spectacular like dermatology or neurosurgery. Although, I do think it's awesome that DOs and MDs are treated the same in the military and won't play a factor in residencies.

 

[ishii123]

DO the DO!

 

[ishii123]

I've heard about the DO degree limiting you for residencies. I'm not aiming for anything spectacular like dermatology or neurosurgery. Although, I do think it's awesome that DOs and MDs are treated the same in the military and won't play a factor in residencies.

As a DO, there is definitely more opportunity to enter a competitive specialty in the military than the civilian world. I have seen military DO's in derm, rads, ophthalmology, and other competitive fields. I didn't see many DO's in these competitive fields in the civilian world. However, to get into these competitive fields, you still need to achieve great grades at your DO medical school. No programs, not even the military programs, are gonna give you Derm or Rads if you just "pass" your med school classes.

Medical professionals all know that MD's and DO's study the same medical knowledge and facts in med school, and the only difference is that DO's also study OMT. But the general public does not know that and DO's are so penalized by public stigma. Therefore, I would rather be an M.D. (and I am). Personally, I would hate it if patients kept asking me, "what's a D.O.? Are you a real doctor?".

 

[Mirror Form]

I'm not aiming for anything spectacular like dermatology or neurosurgery.

Why not? How do you know you won't find that you really like one of those fields during med school?

 

[medicine1]

In the Military I know certain programs only look at USMLEs. Does anyone know if the Wright-State/Wright-Patterson Surgical program looks at both COMLEX and USMLE scores? I know the surgical program in San Antonio, Texas looks only at USMLE scores.

 

[grayce79]

Very true in the civilian world. If you are doing your residency in the Military as the OP stated then it simply doesnt matter.

This is not true. It can still matter. One of my friends who is a HPSP DO was asked during one of her military residency interviews "Are you aware that there has never been a DO accepted into this program?" Not a great start to an interview if you are a DO. To say that there is no discrimination against DOs in the military is a false statement. I have personally seen the discrimination. (And it is not in a super-competitive field.) I have heard some of the "higher ups" say that they feel that DOs are inferior. (Of course they would never say this in the open.)
As I mentioned before, I completely disagree with that statement. I only tell you this to make you aware of the descrimination.
I have several friends that are DO students who say that in retrospect they would have chosen an MD school. Since many residency programs they applied to required USMLE, they had to take both the USMLE and the COMLEX. (Which is a huge pain.) Also, I think you might find that a small percentage of DOs actually use OMT on a frequent basis. The ones that I have seen using it the most is FPs.

 

[usnavdoc]

This is not true. It can still matter. One of my friends who is a HPSP DO was asked during one of her military residency interviews "Are you aware that there has never been a DO accepted into this program?" Not a great start to an interview if you are a DO. To say that there is no discrimination against DOs in the military is a false statement. I have personally seen the discrimination. (And it is not in a super-competitive field.) I have heard some of the "higher ups" say that they feel that DOs are inferior. (Of course they would never say this in the open.)
As I mentioned before, I completely disagree with that statement. I only tell you this to make you aware of the descrimination.
I have several friends that are DO students who say that in retrospect they would have chosen an MD school. Since many residency programs they applied to required USMLE, they had to take both the USMLE and the COMLEX. (Which is a huge pain.) Also, I think you might find that a small percentage of DOs actually use OMT on a frequent basis. The ones that I have seen using it the most is FPs.

Im sure some people get discriminated against. But look at the current resident mixture in military vs civilian fields. There are DOs in competitive fields like EM and Ortho at both NMCP and NMCSD. You simply wont find that to the same degree in the civilian world.

To say that most of your DO friends would have chosen a MD school in retrospect is kind of funny. I mean the majority of people who go to DO schools went there b/c they couldnt get accepted at an Allopathic program.

I agree with what you say about OMT which is what i stated in my previous post. I was also talking about GMOs that use it here at Lejeune not specialists.

Personally none of this matters to me because I go on terminal leave in 99 days. Then off to a civilian program.

 

[rookiedoctor]

By the way, it might interest you to know that as a DO,not only can you apply to any allopathic program (provided you are willing to take the USMLE) but you can also take the COMLEX and apply to any osteopathic program. twice the tests, maybe, but several of my classmates did it and said it was no big deal. You actually end up with twice the residency options because a DO can get into an allopathic program but it doesn't work the other way around.
I use OMT whenever I can, and for those MD's that have seen it and understand its uses and implications, it's a great tool for your tool bag. A better way to present it is that it's neuromusculoskeletal medicine and as a DO you will have over 200 hrs of training in this field even before graduation in addition to everything the allopathic schools offer.
Most MD's I've talked to that are iffy on the whole thing say, "Oh, okay" when I put it that way.
I am however seeing some discrimination in the residency match program, but not too bad. Texas Tech likes DO's...

 

[doc4sure]

By the way, it might interest you to know that as a DO,not only can you apply to any allopathic program (provided you are willing to take the USMLE) but you can also take the COMLEX and apply to any osteopathic program. twice the tests, maybe, but several of my classmates did it and said it was no big deal. You actually end up with twice the residency options because a DO can get into an allopathic program but it doesn't work the other way around.
I use OMT whenever I can, and for those MD's that have seen it and understand its uses and implications, it's a great tool for your tool bag. A better way to present it is that it's neuromusculoskeletal medicine and as a DO you will have over 200 hrs of training in this field even before graduation in addition to everything the allopathic schools offer.
Most MD's I've talked to that are iffy on the whole thing say, "Oh, okay" when I put it that way.
I am however seeing some discrimination in the residency match program, but not too bad. Texas Tech likes DO's...

Ditto the above. If you want to feel better about the future, check out the roster of practicing physicians at a few civilian hospitals. DO's in every specialty. If the numbers seem small keep in mind that the % of DO's versus MD's is small. In the long run it's all in the reputation not the initials.

 

[USAFGMODOC]

QUOTE:

This is not true. It can still matter. One of my friends who is a HPSP DO was asked during one of her military residency interviews "Are you aware that there has never been a DO accepted into this program?"



I am surprised to hear this in a military program interview, I'd be interested in finding out what program this was....

 

[TAbrown]

I am surprised to hear this in a military program interview, I'd be interested in finding out what program this was....[/QUOTE]


Osteopathic physicians in the 21st century have their own following. Alternative ways of healing are becoming more and more important for individuals weary of pharmaceuticals. I chose osteopathic medicine over allopathic medicine because of the OMT and the reputation that osteopathic physicians have with their patients, as well as the opportunities that DOs have.

For those who say that osteopathic physicians are segregated, they should visit the websites of hospitals around the country and see that DOs are in almost every specialty, including CV surgery. Cleveland Clinic, one of the best orthopaedic centers in the world, has orthopaedic surgeons who are osteopathic physicians. When looking at the numbers of DOs in each specialty, one must keep in mind that DOs make up less than 10% of physicians.

When a physician is "banished" from going into a particular specialty because he/she is a DO, an overriding issue must exist with that physician that holds him/her back.

 

[smcc716]

Im sure some people get discriminated against. But look at the current resident mixture in military vs civilian fields. There are DOs in competitive fields like EM and Ortho at both NMCP and NMCSD. You simply wont find that to the same degree in the civilian world.

To say that most of your DO friends would have chosen a MD school in retrospect is kind of funny. I mean the majority of people who go to DO schools went there b/c they couldnt get accepted at an Allopathic program.

I agree with what you say about OMT which is what i stated in my previous post. I was also talking about GMOs that use it here at Lejeune not specialists.

Personally none of this matters to me because I go on terminal leave in 99 days. Then off to a civilian program.

So you actually think the majority of people who go to DO schools couldn't get into allopathic programs. That's a pretty interesting statement.

Anyways, if you are interested in osteopathic medicine, you should definitely go to a DO school. Through all of my training so far, I have run into a ton of DO's in the military, and most of them have been pretty important people at that. The military programs take both the COMLEX and USMLE, and if you get deferred there are plenty of osteopathic residency programs in almost all specialties. There are also plenty of allopathic residencies that take the COMLEX as well.

If you want to be a DO, would you really want to go to a residency that doesn't accept the COMLEX anyways?? That kind of defeats the purpose of what you were doing in the first place.

 

[usnavdoc]

So you actually think the majority of people who go to DO schools couldn't get into allopathic programs. That's a pretty interesting statement.QUOTE]

That comment was based on the previous posters statement that the majority of his DO friends would in retrospect have decided to be MDs instead. I thought it was a funny statement like they had the choice to be either and chose to become a DO. While i am sure that some have done that I dont at all think that statement can be said of the majority.

But yes my statement that "the majority of people who go to DO schools couldn't get into allopathic programs" has been my experience with DOs. But please prove me wrong.

I have nothing against DOs so dont think I do. I think every year there are people who get into Allopathic programs that shouldnt and people the dont and should. Im sure the same can be said of DO programs.

One of my closest collegues/friends here in GMO land is a DO and we bounce things off each other all the time. And as far as Musculoskeletal goes he is top notch as a result of the training from his DO background.

 

[Globus P]

I think 20 years ago that stereotype would have been more accurate, "went DO b/c couldn't get into a MD school." But I don't think that's as prevalent as it once was.

I go to a DO school and there are a few classmates who say they couldn't get into a MD school and went DO, but many of my classmates simply chose DO and turned down MD schools. They thought this school was a better fit.

My study partner turned down admissions to George Washington to go to our DO school.....crazy? maybe so, but he felt our school as a better fit for him.

You ought to see our school....last year's AMA president, Dr. Nelson, came to our school to give a presentation (he happens to be a family friend of my study partner) and he said our school blows most MD schools away (curriculum and campus). We thought that was impressive....simply a data point.

I went DO b/c at my airwing (I was a former aviator), we had 5 flight surgeons (2 DO, 3 MD). The 2 DO's were simply better doctors and I saw it first hand, mainly due to there musculoskeletal diagnostic and treatment techniques.

I summed it up as "these 5 docs do the same job, yet the 2 DOs have this extra bag of tricks in their backpockets called OMT, I want that too."

Based on my experience with those 2 DOs, I went DO.....not because I couldn't get into a MD program.

Lastly, I am glad I went DO to learn OMM and I know I'm getting a top notch education, but if I knew of the inferiority complex many DOs have and that of our DO senior leadership, plus the prevalent erroneous idea that DOs are docs that couldn't get into MD schools, I would probably not have gone DO.

In summary, I think that old stereotype of "DOs couldn't get into a MD program" is rapidly falling away, yet it may take awhile for older MDs to realize that this is a new generation of medical students.

 

[grayce79]

QUOTE:

This is not true. It can still matter. One of my friends who is a HPSP DO was asked during one of her military residency interviews "Are you aware that there has never been a DO accepted into this program?"



I am surprised to hear this in a military program interview, I'd be interested in finding out what program this was....

I was surprised as well. I would prefer not to specify which program.

 

[grayce79]

I think 20 years ago that stereotype would have been more accurate, "went DO b/c couldn't get into a MD school." But I don't think that's as prevalent as it once was.

I think you have to keep in mind that most of the residency program directors these days trained years ago when that stereotype was present. Therefore, they still believe some of these old school ideas.

 

[grayce79]

By the way, it might interest you to know that as a DO,not only can you apply to any allopathic program (provided you are willing to take the USMLE) but you can also take the COMLEX and apply to any osteopathic program. twice the tests, maybe, but several of my classmates did it and said it was no big deal. You actually end up with twice the residency options because a DO can get into an allopathic program but it doesn't work the other way around.

First of all, to take twice the exams IS a big deal. It is expensive, time-consuming, and stressful. Any test that is 8-9 hours long is to me a big deal.

Second, I think that it is oversimplifying matters to say that you end up with twice the residency options if you become a DO. Yes, you can apply to both MD and DO residencies, but you will face discrimination in some of the MD residencies and you limit yourself in that way. This is not an issue if you want to do FP or IMED. But if you are considering any surgical specialties, beware!

I also think that going to the military medical school will limit your options as well. From what I understand, they are required to military residency without an option to defer.

If I were the average premed student, I would go to an MD civilian school and if I wanted to end up in the military, do the FAP after matching into the desired residency. This leaves you with the most options.

I lucked out and matched where I wanted in the specialty I wanted. However, I have both USUHS and DO friends who did not get to match in the specialty that they wanted.

 

[Globus P]

I think you have to keep in mind that most of the residency program directors these days trained years ago when that stereotype was present. Therefore, they still believe some of these old school ideas.

I agree.

 

[Globus P]

QUOTE:
One of my friends who is a HPSP DO was asked during one of her military residency interviews "Are you aware that there has never been a DO accepted into this program?"

I would have replied: "I would like to give you a chance to correct that egregious oversight!"

 

[Mirror Form]

I agree.

I also agree.

 

[usnavdoc]

I think you also have to consider this regionally as well. Here in the SouthEastern US we have much fewer DOs. The first I had ever heard of osteopathic medicine was when I went to OIS the summer prior to starting med school.

 

[ishii123]

I think you also have to consider this regionally as well. Here in the SouthEastern US we have much fewer DOs. The first I had ever heard of osteopathic medicine was when I went to OIS the summer prior to starting med school.

Hey...me too!

Plus, when I applied to med schools, I only applied to MD schools. I didn't know what a DO was...so I didn't bother applying to them.

While in the military, I have met some good and some bad DOs. But then again, you can say the same thing about MDs.

 

[doc4sure]

I choose a DO school because it was a top 20 primary care school.
While not the only reason, it was important. The MD schools I was accepted at were sub 20. I also looked at scores and where the latest grads had gained residencies. The DO schools won out here also.

 

[TAbrown]

I chose a DO school over an MD school because of the MBA opportunity that the DO school has and the school's reputation with military medicine HPSP students. When the last of the "prejudice" MDs retire in a few years, DOs will not have as much of a problem with discrimination.
All in all, the MDs wanted the DOs to combine with them years ago. The DOs did not take up the offer because they liked their own philosophy on medicine, and they already had quite a patient following.