DO Discrimination?

[tinyhandsbob]

This is a question for post-residency. I know it's been discussed that DO psychiatrists have no problem finding work.

I'm curious, however, if anyone has had negative experiences post-residency where they were not considered for a job they were interested in because they did not have an MD? ( for example, when perusing Indeed for psych positions, some (the minority) only list MD as the required education and I wonder what proportion of those jobs would reject otherwise qualified DOs if they inquired). Or has it ever come up in an job interview or job networking situation - for example getting a weird or negative reaction when you disclosed that you attended a DO program? Or during an interaction with a patient or potential patient?

Just want to get a feel for how common it is for DOs to encounter such unpleasant situations after one has completed their residency.

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[NPDude362]

I think the discrimination against DOs is really a thing of the past. Some MDs will still poke fun at DOs but I think its really in a joking manner. While I am not a physician I have worked in healthcare over 15 years and witnessed the change. In my last hospital the chief of surgery in a major trauma center was a DO and the ER director was a DO. Both of these providers were very highly respected people.

There is such a tremendous need for psychiatry right now that it doesn't matter whether you are a DO or MD and it doesn't matter where you obtained your degree. Patients generally just know you as a doctor, they don't care whether you are a DO or not. I have many colleagues who run various practices including psychiatry and they just want a provider to have an unencumbered license with no disciplinary action, they don't care whether you are a DO or MD and they don't care if you obtained your license at Johns Hopkins or McDonalds. The reimbursement is the same.

NP Dude
FNP, Future PMHNP(4 months away!), EMT-P, CEN, RN

 

[AtlasCarraway]

UTSW has two DOs on their faculty, so I think we can definitively say there's no discrimination whatsoever

Psychiatry Faculty

The faculty in the Department of Psychiatry at UT Southwestern have expertise in virtually all areas pertinent to modern psychiatric practice, ranging from psychoanalysis to neurobiology to psychiatric epidemiology.

www.utsouthwestern.edu

 

[robellis]

I think the discrimination against DOs is really a thing of the past. Some MDs will still poke fun at DOs but I think its really in a joking manner. While I am not a physician I have worked in healthcare over 15 years and witnessed the change. In my last hospital the chief of surgery in a major trauma center was a DO and the ER director was a DO. Both of these providers were very highly respected people.

There is such a tremendous need for psychiatry right now that it doesn't matter whether you are a DO or MD and it doesn't matter where you obtained your degree. Patients generally just know you as a doctor, they don't care whether you are a DO or not. I have many colleagues who run various practices including psychiatry and they just want a provider to have an unencumbered license with no disciplinary action, they don't care whether you are a DO or MD and they don't care if you obtained your license at Johns Hopkins or McDonalds. The reimbursement is the same.

NP Dude
FNP, Future PMHNP(4 months away!), EMT-P, CEN, RN

Did you put all of those initials as a joke

 

[hebel]

This felt like a huge deal when I was pre-med, but as an attending I've never seen any kind of discrimination. I'm a community doc though, so perhaps it's a factor at elite academic places.

 

[Stagg737]

for example, when perusing Indeed for psych positions, some (the minority) only list MD as the required education and I wonder what proportion of those jobs would reject otherwise qualified DOs if they inquired)

Guarantee that it’s just semantics in the ad. Most places don’t care at all. Only exception may be some of the more elite/traditional programs, but I would think they’d care more about your other credentials (research, residency attended, specific expertise, etc) than actually being a DO.

I’m still a PGY-4 and a DO, but I’ve even had a few academic programs messaging me about open positions. After starting residency I haven’t felt any discrimination.

 

[comp1]

There is such a bizarre disconnect between how valued you feel during residency and how valued you actually are after residency. I really feel, at least during PGY-4, there should be some sort of education on the actual job market. No one cares if you have an MD or DO! No one cares where you even did residency! Most places are even perfectly happy to hire you without board certification. Employers are, quite simply, desperate.

 

[Sushirolls]

There is such a bizarre disconnect between how valued you feel during residency and how valued you actually are after residency. I really feel, at least during PGY-4, there should be some sort of education on the actual job market. No one cares if you have an MD or DO! No one cares where you even did residency! Most places are even perfectly happy to hire you without board certification. Employers are, quite simply, desperate.

That's what SDN is for. To fill in the gaps of the failures of academia.

No issues of DO/MD. Basically is like DDS vs DMD.

The only issue is some patients for those in solo private practice might have some patients not calling or having no clue what a DO is, or thinking its a Psychologist. But this patient uncertainty is hard to quantify if its within the usual range of patient mis understandings of the system as a whole or a real negative towards DO.

*the employers aren't that desperate. Many will still scat on people with little regard to the value of human capital, and continue their management styles in manner that leads to same rate of turn over and poor retention. Others won't consider raising their pay rates - when fully capable - so I'm not a bliever in the "desperate" mantra of employers.

 

[nexus73]

Overall doesn’t matter. Maybe in major metro area a specific clinic or hospital can be choosier if there are a lot of psychiatrists available, and it could be the medical director has some bias for MDs, but in general places don’t have the luxury to reject a psychiatrist just because they’re a DO. Nor should they.

 

[tinyhandsbob]

Guarantee that it’s just semantics in the ad. Most places don’t care at all. Only exception may be some of the more elite/traditional programs, but I would think they’d care more about your other credentials (research, residency attended, specific expertise, etc) than actually being a DO.

I’m still a PGY-4 and a DO, but I’ve even had a few academic programs messaging me about open positions. After starting residency I haven’t felt any discrimination.

Curious, what sort of discrimination did you experience prior to starting residency?

 

[FlowRate]

I second that super elite institutions may care a little. Otherwise it doesn't matter. I don't know how DO's feel about it but I've seen some systems where they actually put MD on the DO's nametag or Dr. XYZ (even when they leave the MD's as MD).

 

[tinyhandsbob]

That's what SDN is for. To fill in the gaps of the failures of academia.

No issues of DO/MD. Basically is like DDS vs DMD.

The only issue is some patients for those in solo private practice might have some patients not calling or having no clue what a DO is, or thinking its a Psychologist. But this patient uncertainty is hard to quantify if its within the usual range of patient mis understandings of the system as a whole or a real negative towards DO.

*the employers aren't that desperate. Many will still scat on people with little regard to the value of human capital, and continue their management styles in manner that leads to same rate of turn over and poor retention. Others won't consider raising their pay rates - when fully capable - so I'm not a bliever in the "desperate" mantra of employers.

I'd be curious to know if this patient uncertainty in private practice has a real life impact on DOs going into private practice based on revenue/viability or if minor enough not to matter.

I second that super elite institutions may care a little. Otherwise it doesn't matter. I don't know how DO's feel about it but I've seen some systems where they actually put MD on the DO's nametag or Dr. XYZ (even when they leave the MD's as MD).

By super elite, you mean like ivy league academic and their affiliated med centers? (i.e. Stanford, yale, mayo etc)

 

[FlowRate]

By super elite, you mean like ivy league academic and their affiliated med centers? (i.e. Stanford, yale, mayo etc)

Yes. The same places that don't take DO's as residents.

They often do take DO's as fellows because of how much less competitive some fellowships are. That's probably one way to break in if you're really gunning to be academic faculty at a place like that.

 

[Sushirolls]

But these days, why would anyone want to work at a place like Yale that is hosting CME openly advocating for the death of one group of people and thinking its okay?

 

[AD04]

Any place that chooses candidates based on if they have MD or DO rather than skill is a place that will not have the best talents. Anyone who really wants to excel in psychiatry would want to surround themselves with the best.

And frankly I believe in payback. If a DO is rejected from a residency just for being a DO, that DO should decline recruitment from that institution when he or she is an attending.

 

[Stagg737]

Curious, what sort of discrimination did you experience prior to starting residency?

Basically what was said above. Certain residencies won’t take DOs or will expect them to be that much better than MDs they consider. Less of an issue in psych than other fields, but still some bias out there.

 

[Sushirolls]

Any place that chooses candidates based on if they have MD or DO rather than skill is a place that will not have the best talents. Anyone who really wants to excel in psychiatry would want to surround themselves with the best.

And frankly I believe in payback. If a DO is rejected from a residency just for being a DO, that DO should decline recruitment from that institution when he or she is an attending.

The hard thing though is truly knowing if it really was because of the DO degree. Most every institution you look at has had a DO resident at some point. So can you really claim it was the DO or simply something else they used to filter out?

 

[nexus73]

I'm a DO and remember one job interview right out of residency where they didn't even call me back. I thought the interview went ok. Seemed strange to not even let me know they picked someone else. But I guess some recruiting departments are less organized perhaps. Or maybe it's because I rooted for the rival football team from the medical director. Or maybe I'm not the hottest psychiatrists since sliced bread. Or maybe it's the DO. I don't know. But I got a lot of other job offers.

 

[Viscernable]

But these days, why would anyone want to work at a place like Yale that is hosting CME openly advocating for the death of one group of people and thinking its okay?

I have nothing to do with this discussion but can I get a link to whatever fresh hell this is referencing?

 

[Sushirolls]

I have nothing to do with this discussion but can I get a link to whatever fresh hell this is referencing?

Here and here, too.

 

[UrbanMidwest]

Here and here, too.

Yikes.