Do DO student feel inferior sometimes?

[JaggerPlate]

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laugh ... I'm just trying to make a basic point here people, not write my doctoral thesis on the internal battle of the BA and BS degree. Also, my example was more along these lines. Take economics for example: My specific school grants ONLY a BA in economics because of where it is categorized at my school (great econ/biz econ program difficult). However, I had an econ professor once who had a BS in econ from from small school in the mid west. Now, do you think she looked down on people in the department who had a BA in econ, or that the general public would poo poo a BA in econ from my school in light of a BS from a different school? I really doubt it. My analogy wasn't for degrees from the same school, the way in which standards are laid out etc etc 🙄 .

JUST TRYING TO MAKE AN ANALOGY PEOPLE!!!! 👍

I know this post will probably get picked apart as well, although arguing BS and BA was not my point.

 

[wcbcruzer]

To the OP... Well, it's worse when you have immediate family who's biased towards DO. It would be better if they didn't even know what it was. I think the biggest problem is, people simply don't know about it and they see "top" schools like Harvard that only teach allopathic medicine. Therefore, they're skeptical and automatically assume that it's more inferior to something that's been tried and true. It's just human nature. For example, take a Mercedes Benz. People see you rolling in a one and they figure you're well off. Now come by rolling in a Volkswagen Phaeton, which costs about $100k. People will still think "Oh it's just a Volkswagen."

The ONLY problem I see with becoming a DO is that I would get tired of explaining what it is to people. I know no one looks at where you graduated once you start working, but I'm sure patients would still ask from time to time.

Now let's face it. GPA and MCAT scores don't really test how smart you are. We're all pretty smart to be here. Those with better grades and scores just have a stronger study ethic. Like already mentioned, if given a choice, most people will choose MD over DO just because it is known more by the public. That's all! If DO was more popular than MD, then I guarantee DO schools would be more competitive than MD schools. Frankly, it's VERY competitive to get into ANY type of medical school. Appreciate the fact that you got into a DO school. It's actually very hard to get into one. Just because you got into several on your first shot shouldn't de-value it. Again, that's another part of human nature, always wanting more and better. There's LOTS of people who are kicking their own butt on the third application cycle just to gain admission into a DO school.

 

[cyclohexanol]

I know you weren't doing a dissertation on BS vs BA. I was just saying it's a poor analogy and your post happened to be the 100th time I've seen it, so you won the prize. Nothing personal.

Most analogies are poor.

Instead of using analogies to explain the seemingly complex in simple ways to people (the reason we use this analogy in the first place), why not just tell it how it is? Something like: "there are multiple degrees that lead to becoming licensed to practice the full scope of medicine and surgery in the US: MD, DO, MBBS (and a couple others like MDCM et al.) they all go through similar, if not the same training and pass similar, if not the same licensing exams." Seems simple enough, is entirely accurate, and doesn't depend on varying definitions and perceptions of what you are analogizing.

And maybe I am making too big of a fuss about it, but its just one of those things that irks me 😛

Carry on!

laugh ... I'm just trying to make a basic point here people, not write my doctoral thesis on the internal battle of the BA and BS degree. Also, my example was more along these lines. Take economics for example: My specific school grants ONLY a BA in economics because of where it is categorized at my school (great econ/biz econ program difficult). However, I had an econ professor once who had a BS in econ from from small school in the mid west. Now, do you think she looked down on people in the department who had a BA in econ, or that the general public would poo poo a BA in econ from my school in light of a BS from a different school? I really doubt it. My analogy wasn't for degrees from the same school, the way in which standards are laid out etc etc 🙄 .

JUST TRYING TO MAKE AN ANALOGY PEOPLE!!!! 👍

I know this post will probably get picked apart as well, although arguing BS and BA was not my point.

 

[wcbcruzer]

Now another thing. I think DO would actually help you out in the working world. People think you specialized in bone or something. 😀 Just tell them you had supplemental training in osteopathic manipulative medicine.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I know you weren't doing a dissertation on BS vs BA. I was just saying it's a poor analogy and your post happened to be the 100th time I've seen it, so you won the prize. Nothing personal.

And what did I win????

Most analogies are poor.

Instead of using analogies to explain the seemingly complex in simple ways to people (the reason we use this analogy in the first place), why not just tell it how it is? Something like: "there are multiple degrees that lead to becoming licensed to practice the full scope of medicine and surgery in the US: MD, DO, MBBS (and a couple others like MDCM et al.) they all go through similar, if not the same training and pass similar, if not the same licensing exams." Seems simple enough, is entirely accurate, and doesn't depend on varying definitions and perceptions of what you are analogizing.

And maybe I am making too big of a fuss about it, but its just one of those things that irks me 😛

Carry on!

Trust me, your reaction to the analogy is perfectly normal, and I actually agree with you. It is a complex issue, and trying to slap some solve all, analogy band-aid on it dumbs down the situation. Your 'fuss' is not too big, and the fact that you are a DO student, and I am a lowly pre med, automatically gives you more insight on the situation. So NOW carry on!! 👍

(I also think you understand that my analogy -as poor as it was- was just to try and weigh in on the OP's situation ... nothing more)

 

[stmclovin]

Just like this: http://www.xkcd.com/385

interesting..

 

[Instatewaiter]

Personal experience masterMood? I thought you were preparing now for the MCAT. I'm confused.

There are lots of reasons why people go DO. And not all of them have to do with any kind of problems with science classes or MCATs. I'd be really really careful putting words in people's mouths (or application experiences), masterMood.

For the record, I had neither problems with my science classes or my MCAT. And I'm very happy to be in DO school.

So you had MD acceptances?

 

[spicedmanna]

Do some osteopathic medical students and physicians feel inferior sometimes? You bet. Medical school makes me feel like an idiot daily (and residency is probably going to be worse in that regard). However, for many of us, it probably doesn't have much to do with designation. Sure, there will be students who never wanted to be DO's and those are the ones who are likely to attribute their lack of confidence in themselves specifically to their designation. Otherwise, for the most part, there's no issue in the professional world. We are all on the same boat, doing the same thing. If I happen to feel inferior, it is because I feel inferior, not because I'm going to be a DO.

 

[J1515]

The ONLY problem I see with becoming a DO is that I would get tired of explaining what it is to people. I know no one looks at where you graduated once you start working, but I'm sure patients would still ask from time to time.

I'm not sure where you are in your education, but 99.72% of the time patients either don't notice, don't care enough to ask, or already know. Not looking to offend you or anything...just trying to dispel the common pre-med myth on SDN that DOs constantly have to explain what the letters after their name mean.

 

[scpod]

Not looking to offend you or anything...just trying to dispel the common pre-med myth on SDN that DOs constantly have to explain what the letters after their name mean.

I think the perception comes from people who aren't comfortable with getting a DO degree. They listen to, "What's a DO?" from a patient, but what they hear is, "Why did you go to a DO school instead of a real school that gives an MD degree?"

All you really have to say, if the question is ever asked, is, "US schools award two different degrees to physicians, MD and DO. I chose a school that gives out the DO."

At that point you really don't have to say anything else, unless the patient has other questions. You don't have to explain the differences or justify your reasoning for attending a DO school. They probably don't even care.

If you feel like it is a good time for educating the patient, then you can go into more detail....but chances are that it really doesn't matter to them. If you feel some kind of compulsion to justify your existence when the question is asked, then it's an internal problem that you have to deal with on your own. Perhaps a good DO psychiatrist is in order 🙂.

 

[J1515]

At that point you really don't have to say anything else, unless the patient has other questions. You don't have to explain the differences or justify your reasoning for attending a DO school. They probably don't even care.

I couldn't have said it better. We're dealing with tons of pre-meds on here who do nothing but eat, sleep, and drink organic chemistry and would make a deal with God to remain a virgin for the rest of their lives if they could just get accepted to their top choice medical school. Now compare that to an investment banker or teacher who comes to a doctor's office complaining of recurrent chest pain, worried because their father died of an MI at 40. They are worried about their health. The pre-med is worried about being better than everyone else. There is the difference.

 

[DragonWell]

interesting...

Obviously, there's no obligation to respond to one's own posts on SDN, but I am curious if the 50 or so responses you've gotten to your original post have affected your thinking at all on this subject. I don't mean to pressure you if you don't feel like sharing your thoughts or are still processing, I'm just curious...

 

[ChimpanzeeMinky]

So you had MD acceptances?

I am curious about this as well.

 

[nlax30]

Do I feel inferior BECAUSE I'm a DO student?? Nope, not at all.

Do I feel inferior because I'm a medical student? Pretty much every day when I realize how much I do not know while trying to read the same paragraph in Neuro over and over again.

I have several friends in MD programs around the country and have never felt inferior at any point, and have never heard anything from them that would give me that impression.

Kinda helps to remember that we're all learning the same things, and have the same obstacles and hoops to jump through during this process.

 

[Moniker]

Im a third year. I have rotated with kids from the majority of MD institutions in my area to include RUSH, UIC, Loyola, and CMS.


The short answer, is no. I have never once been embarrassed by my degree nor have I ever been embarrassed by my clinical knowledge. Maybe I was just rotating with the bottom of each class - I doubt it.

be careful, this could be easily misinterpreted. i spent 5 minutes trying to figure out what you were implying about MD students in chicago before I gave up and gave you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't being insulting.

 

[judgehopkins]

I go to Michigan State and the MSUCOM students take the exact same classes as the CHM students do. Having a DO degree behind your name leads to superior knowledge, especially in anatomy.

I was doing OMM on a 2nd year CHM student this past week for an acute sports injury and he was astounded by the fact that the CHM students don't have the extra training.

 

[jp104]

be careful, this could be easily misinterpreted. i spent 5 minutes trying to figure out what you were implying about MD students in chicago before I gave up and gave you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't being insulting.

How in the world can you see his statement as insulting. He's saying a) he doesn't feel inferior and b) it's unlikely that every allopathic student he's rotated with is "bottom of the class" and c) since b is unlikely then his education is sufficient to maintain pace with the allopathic students.

You spent 4 minutes, 50 seconds too long in analyzing what he meant

 

[Moniker]

How in the world can you see his statement as insulting. He's saying a) he doesn't feel inferior and b) it's unlikely that every allopathic student he's rotated with is "bottom of the class" and c) since b is unlikely then his education is sufficient to maintain pace with the allopathic students.

You spent 4 minutes, 50 seconds too long in analyzing what he meant

youre a genius

 

[Orthodoc40]

We take our 1st year classes with the MD students and the DO students together. It's about 400 people in lecture now (though they are expanding - god knows how.) My observations to this point are simple. If anything, the DO students here (MSU) behave and feel superior because they are DO students. It's not just pride, it's like a cause to get all worked up about for them, or something. I don't know - ask one.

Consistently during lectures presented by physicians with a patient, during question time one of them will ask a question to try to get the doctor, a DO, to say how being a DO makes them better able to treat this patient. The physicians addressed are always able to respond appropriately - "No, why would it?" or something to that affect.... going on with more about why OMM would be irrelevent, and how we train alongside each other....

I think you can encounter some of this when you head to the east coast. The big academic programs are slowly leaking in DO graduates, which is great to see. But there are people, probably mostly older, though I was surprised at the number of older practicing physicians that were well comfortable with DO = MD. But anyway, some are definitely out there, and it's more prevelant on the east coast - probably northeast? Boston, NY, NH, Yale, some of Philly. Though the Philly area and around parts of NJ are really (I've heard) about a 50-50 ratio of MD to DO. So probably less bias there, too. Anyway I can't think any more so hopefully that has any use at all.

 

[MaximusD]

🙄

Another useless post brought to you by Instatewaiter 👍

 

[MaximusD]

So you had MD acceptances?

He's on fire!

 

[Vizsla]

Another useless post brought to you by Instatewaiter 👍

the face was referring to the quote referenced in the post, which was utter bull$hit

 

[jp104]

youre a genius

Why, thank you! 😍

 

[MaximusD]

🙄

It is obvious that in practice, DOs and MDs are on the same page. However, it is a falsehood to assume that the movement towards the current convergence has only been on the osteopathic side. In reality, MD philosophy has been coming into line with osteopathic ideals. Most physicians will agree -- MD or DO.

 

[MaximusD]

We take our 1st year classes with the MD students and the DO students together. It's about 400 people in lecture now (though they are expanding - god knows how.) My observations to this point are simple. If anything, the DO students here (MSU) behave and feel superior because they are DO students. It's not just pride, it's like a cause to get all worked up about for them, or something. I don't know - ask one.

Consistently during lectures presented by physicians with a patient, during question time one of them will ask a question to try to get the doctor, a DO, to say how being a DO makes them better able to treat this patient. The physicians addressed are always able to respond appropriately - "No, why would it?" or something to that affect.... going on with more about why OMM would be irrelevent, and how we train alongside each other....

I think you can encounter some of this when you head to the east coast. The big academic programs are slowly leaking in DO graduates, which is great to see. But there are people, probably mostly older, though I was surprised at the number of older practicing physicians that were well comfortable with DO = MD. But anyway, some are definitely out there, and it's more prevelant on the east coast - probably northeast? Boston, NY, NH, Yale, some of Philly. Though the Philly area and around parts of NJ are really (I've heard) about a 50-50 ratio of MD to DO. So probably less bias there, too. Anyway I can't think any more so hopefully that has any use at all.

It's higher than other places here but with four other med schools in this city alone... not that high.

 

[Porco Rosso]

To the op, so I study at a local cafe that is attached to this supermarket. Today the supermarket was having open interviews for cashier jobs and shelf stocking jobs. There were literally around 80 to 90 people standing in 20 degree weather waiting to be interviewed. These were not people in there mid 20's either they were people in there 40's and 50's men, women, people with familys ext ext. I really kinda felt bad for them. Here they are trying to get hired for what 8,9, maybe 10 dollars an hour to put food on there table. Instead of going about worrying about all this nonsense, you should be thanking God every day that you are going to be privilidged enough to do a job you love making a huge impact in people lives (and making a very good living). Do the best you can, work hard, know your stuff and the rest will take care of itself. Seriously this M.D D.O stuff is sooooooo irrevelent in the grand scheme of life.

Best advice ever. People who come to see you wont care about DO/MD behind the name, they will care more about how you treated them and your course of actions for their health.



TO END ALL THESE CONV: I am very good friends with couple of FMG residents from India who are in a program with DO/MD students at a big teaching hospital. They were telling me that in the interactions with both kinds for over three of their residencies, they cant tell any differences and both are capable of achieving anything.

They didnt understand the whole DO vs. MD thing because they work them everyday and dont think the title behind the names. If anything, they were more concerned about individual drives, work ethics, and patient care personalities.

Maybe this is an ideal teaching hospital 🙂

 

[Instatewaiter]

I think this is an incredibly important point that people either don't know, or simply forget about. DOs really don't still have the "right" to say, "Unlike our MD brethren, we treat the whole patient...blah, blah, blah", because that just isn't true TODAY. Walking around with that sort of mantra is not only ignorant, it's condescending.

Nevertheless, I think people consciously or subconsciously re-write history, and many would almost lead you to believe that, historically, physicians (MDs) have been holistically treating patients since the beginning of time. This just isn't the case. Probably the most important (in my opinion) thing to result from the emergence of osteopathic medicine is this holistic, patient centered approach that Osteopathic Medicine has brought about.

My point: At the very least, the DO profession should be given credit where credit is due.

repost to re-roll my eyes 🙄

Another useless post brought to you by Instatewaiter 👍

🙄

However, it is a falsehood to assume that the movement towards the current convergence has only been on the osteopathic side. In reality, MD philosophy has been coming into line with osteopathic ideals. Most physicians will agree -- MD or DO.

🙄

I just find it funny that the same people who spout off about how MD and DO are the same also find the need to make distinctions like DOs have more training or have a different philosophy or have a patient centered approach. It is also funny that these are the same people who were rejected from every MD school they applied to yet claim they "chose DO"

 

[It'sElectric]

I just find it funny that the same people who spout off about how MD and DO are the same also find the need to make distinctions like DOs have more training or have a different philosophy or have a patient centered approach. It is also funny that these are the same people who were rejected from every MD school they applied to yet claim they "chose DO"

First of all, it's sort of sweet/cute how you VCU fellas stick together. Secondly, you're clearly choosing to ignore certain key word/components of what I previously wrote. Nowhere did I claim that DO students are better prepared/trained to holistically treat a patient. In fact, I stated the exact opposite by clarifying that I feel it's BS for a DO student or physician to walk around spouting that sort of mantra. Like it or not, osteopathic medicine came about as a direct consequence of how physicians were practicing in the mid to late 19th century. It was a reaction to the current practice of medicine, not some sort of Scientology-esque (sorry to all Scientologists) practice that came out of thin air from a science fiction writer.

I would ask that you simply do a little research into the history of medicine (md and do) - possibly even read The DOs by Norman Gevitz. I've personally spoken with other MDs and even allopathic students who whole-heartedly agree with me. They would never for a second allow me to proclaim that only DOs practice patient-centered, holistic medicine today, but they'd more than happily admit that osteopathic medicine brought it about.

Nothing I previously said was revolutionary or inflammatory...it's simply a historical truth.

On a side note, I was accepted to 1 MD school, but chose to go to my current DO school. I think as soon as pre-meds start ignoring admission numbers, they'll soon realize there are far better criteria to evaluate a medical school. Can you really say that a school w/ an admissions average of 27 MCAT, 3.6 GPA is going to provide you with an inferior education to one that has an average MCAT of 30 and a 3.7 GPA...or better yet, compared to a school with an MCAT of 33 and a GPA of 3.8. Those admission numbers guarantee nothing in regards to the quality of education one would receive.

 

[It'sElectric]

To emphasize my last point:
VCU
DMU

So how different are we, really? I'm not trying to "one-up" you or have a pen1s size contest here. I just want you to really think about this before you automatically assume that an MD student is somehow intrinsically better than a DO student.

 

[Jack Daniel]

... Like it or not, osteopathic medicine came about as a direct consequence of how physicians were practicing in the mid to late 19th century. It was a reaction to the current practice of medicine...

I would ask that you simply do a little research into the history of medicine (md and do) - possibly even read The DOs by Norman Gevitz. I've personally spoken with other MDs and even allopathic students who whole-heartedly agree with me. They would never for a second allow me to proclaim that only DOs practice patient-centered, holistic medicine today, but they'd more than happily admit that osteopathic medicine brought it about. ...

... Nevertheless, I think people consciously or subconsciously re-write history, and many would almost lead you to believe that, historically, physicians (MDs) have been holistically treating patients since the beginning of time. This just isn't the case. Probably the most important (in my opinion) thing to result from the emergence of osteopathic medicine is this holistic, patient centered approach that Osteopathic Medicine has brought about.

My point: At the very least, the DO profession should be given credit where credit is due.

Great points! Personally, this is one of my favorite arguments in the quest to define our relationship with MDs...osteopathic medicine as a social movement.

 

[group_theory]

This conversation has clearly degenerated. Closing.