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I'm not trying to be a troll, but hear me out. I grew up an avid fan of professional sports and have been surrounded by news about contracts and such matters. These guys are raking in a doctor's yearly salary within a day or two. Same goes for actors, even successful youtube channels (more achievable). I'm not saying being a professional athlete is easy, but it's crazy to me that entertainment/ a game is valued more by society than people who can save lives and improve other people's quality of living.

Money alone is not my reason for going into medicine, but based solely on money (since you do need it to survive), and the time and effort it takes to become a doctor, is it even worth it from a financial perspective?

I've held part-time jobs as a source of basic grocery/food money knowing that i'm gonna be in debt for a while because of med school anyways.

I guess my view of money has been skewed by these massive contracts but is a doctor's salary truly enough to live a comfortable life, experiencing all the things the world has to offer?

Thanks
 

Mwooster

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I'm not trying to be a troll, but hear me out. I grew up an avid fan of professional sports and have been surrounded by news about contracts and such matters. These guys are raking in a doctor's yearly salary within a day or two. Same goes for actors, even successful youtube channels (more achievable). I'm not saying being a professional athlete is easy, but it's crazy to me that entertainment/ a game is valued more by society than people who can save lives and improve other people's quality of living.

Money alone is not my reason for going into medicine, but based solely on money (since you do need it to survive), and the time and effort it takes to become a doctor, is it even worth it from a financial perspective?

I've held part-time jobs as a source of basic grocery/food money knowing that i'm gonna be in debt for a while because of med school anyways.

I guess my view of money has been skewed by these massive contracts but is a doctor's salary truly enough to live a comfortable life, experiencing all the things the world has to offer?

Thanks
:beat:

Search bar in the upper right hand corner is your friend.

OP just joined yesterday and now started this HQ thread... lack of self control alarming
 

Lucca

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Yes what doctors make is several times over enough to live a comfortable life. Even with the debt.

No matter how much you make your life will be uncomfortable if you are not willing to make the sacrifices needed to complete the training, school, etc. which are not really that significant relative to what a common person in America, much less the world typically has to endure
 

The_Bird

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Yeh
 
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I'm not trying to be a troll, but hear me out. I grew up an avid fan of professional sports and have been surrounded by news about contracts and such matters. These guys are raking in a doctor's yearly salary within a day or two. Same goes for actors, even successful youtube channels (more achievable). I'm not saying being a professional athlete is easy, but it's crazy to me that entertainment/ a game is valued more by society than people who can save lives and improve other people's quality of living.

Money alone is not my reason for going into medicine, but based solely on money (since you do need it to survive), and the time and effort it takes to become a doctor, is it even worth it from a financial perspective?

I've held part-time jobs as a source of basic grocery/food money knowing that i'm gonna be in debt for a while because of med school anyways.

I guess my view of money has been skewed by these massive contracts but is a doctor's salary truly enough to live a comfortable life, experiencing all the things the world has to offer?

Thanks
Lol no. Just stop.
 
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Good luck bro. Those are things that you talk about after you've done them though.
 

Mad Jack

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Op, statistically you won't end up in any of those careers, even medicine.

As to monies though, doctors can make a ton if they invent a device, become CMO, or lead a big-name academic department. Much like the vast majority of actors and sportsmen only making a paltry wage compared to those at the top, most physicians earn substantially less than the inventor/business/academic leading physicians out there, who can pull seven and even eight figures.
 
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Chromium Surfer

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Op, statistically you won't end up in any of those careers, even medicine.

As to monies though, doctors can make a ton if they invent a device, become CMO, or lead a big-name academic department. Much like the vast majority of actors and sportsmen only making a paltry wage compared to those at the top, most physicians earn substantially less than the inventor/business/academic leading physicians out there, who can pull seven and even eight figures.
Why do leading academic physicians make seven or eight figures? I was told and under the impression that going into acadmeia is not as lucrative as private practice? Is it because universities lure these type of docs with huge salaries?

Personally as long as I can put food on the table, put my kids through college, and be able to live off my retirement, I'll be more than content. Everything else is just icing on the cake.
 

md-2020

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Why do leading academic physicians make seven or eight figures? I was told and under the impression that going into acadmeia is not as lucrative as private practice? Is it because universities lure these type of docs with huge salaries?
I assume jack is referring to the top Dawgs who step into admin/leadership roles at hospital systems/unis. In general academic/research medicine is less lucrative yes
 
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Why do leading academic physicians make seven or eight figures? I was told and under the impression that going into acadmeia is not as lucrative as private practice? Is it because universities lure these type of docs with huge salaries?

Personally as long as I can put food on the table, put my kids through college, and be able to live off my retirement, I'll be more than content. Everything else is just icing on the cake.
I feel like the point is that those who make 7-8 figures don't do it because of what their job is. They do it because they worked hard and did well at that job. Doctors happen to make more than enough money without having to be superman.
 

Mad Jack

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Why do leading academic physicians make seven or eight figures? I was told and under the impression that going into acadmeia is not as lucrative as private practice? Is it because universities lure these type of docs with huge salaries?

Personally as long as I can put food on the table, put my kids through college, and be able to live off my retirement, I'll be more than content. Everything else is just icing on the cake.
Academia is a pyramid. The guys and gals at the top make mucho dinero, while the plebs at the bottom work for peasant wages.

http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/07/29/53445/coaches-doctors-are-top-earners-at-university-of-c/

To give you an idea of a system with seven figure physician salaries at the top. A great number of directors of large academic departments pull high six or low seven figure salaries.
 
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The_Bird

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Academia is a pyramid. The guys and gals at the top make mucho dinero, while the plebs at the bottom work for peasant wages.

http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/07/29/53445/coaches-doctors-are-top-earners-at-university-of-c/

To give you an idea of a system with seven figure physician salaries at the top. A great number of directors of large academic departments pull high six or low seven figure salaries.
How about those who write textbooks? Surely that's a good source of income.
 

Chromium Surfer

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Academia is a pyramid. The guys and gals at the top make mucho dinero, while the plebs at the bottom work for peasant wages.

http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/07/29/53445/coaches-doctors-are-top-earners-at-university-of-c/

To give you an idea of a system with seven figure physician salaries at the top. A great number of directors of large academic departments pull high six or low seven figure salaries.
In the article they talked about the physician who earned 2.3 million dollars from grants and research contracts. I thought that money went towards the project not the pocket of the PI? Do they get a salary and money for research? Or is part of their money for research and part of it for academic work?

I feel like if premeds were more content their lives would be a lot easier. I'm all for working hard and aspiring to be great etc, but at the same time, realstic expectations should also be held.
 

Mad Jack

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In the article they talked about the physician who earned 2.3 million dollars from grants and research contracts. I thought that money went towards the project not the pocket of the PI? Do they get a salary and money for research? Or is part of their money for research and part of it for academic work?

I feel like if premeds were more content their lives would be a lot easier. I'm all for working hard and aspiring to be great etc, but at the same time, realstic expectations should also be held.
That's just his salary portion of the contracts- you get money for directing big research, especially for things like pharmaceutical companies and the like. They want the best people running the show, and pay accordingly.
 
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Sardinia

There are a lot of methods to make supplemental income once you are able to establish a comfortable baseline for yourself. Sub-leasing to students is a popular option around college towns. Investing in business ventures you understand from a profit standpoint are also generally solid investments outside of your 401k, Roth IRA, or index funds. If you're restricted into thinking that you can only earn money from your primary source of income then you're capping yourself from exploring other income streams which would return money to the community rather than putting it into a complex financial instrument that will benefit no one except your financier and possibly you.
 
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If you compare what a doctor makes to what the average worker makes then yes doctors do make a lot of money. If you compare it to something like an athlete or an actor then no. Isn't this common sense..?
 

RogueBanana

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Seriously, why put so much effort into a career when you're going to make less than Joe Flacco anyway? He's not even good, it's so frustrating!!!
"NotASerialKiller"

seems legit. Definitely not a serial killer.


But seriously dude, depending on your specialty, you'll be making 130k-750k per year. Average income for a US Citizen is 50k USD. You'll live more than comfortable for the rest of your life. If you do consulting for medical companies, you can potentially add 30k to your bottom line for attending 5-6 board meetings a year. Do that at multiple companies in addition to your own practice and you'll be making more money than you'd ever need. Why would you even compare a doctor to a sports star or celebrity anyways? You're doing meaningful work and being paid extremely well. If all you care about is being rich than you are in the wrong profession.
 
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Law2Doc

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...but only if you sell a lot of them.
Except you won't. Textbooks by definition are targeted to a small audience, not the general public. And students are uniquely skilled at pirating and ripping publishers off - it's the group you least want as your target market. And there's a huge market for used books which cuts into profit margins. Which is why new text books are outrageously priced and so few educators choose to write them -- it's really a suckers play. This won't be your source of wealth, but it may enhance your prestige, leading to other opportunities.
 

Law2Doc

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"NotASerialKiller"

seems legit. Definitely not a serial killer.


But seriously dude, depending on your specialty, you'll be making 130k-750k per year. Average income for a US Citizen is 50k USD. You'll live more than comfortable for the rest of your life. If you do consulting for medical companies, you can potentially add 30k to your bottom line for attending 5-6 board meetings a year. Do that at multiple companies in addition to your own practice and you'll be making more money than you'd ever need. Why would you even compare a doctor to a sports star or celebrity anyways? You're doing meaningful work and being paid extremely well. If all you care about is being rich than you are in the wrong profession.
Average income for doctors is about $200k-ish and some earn less. He likely won't be earning $750k plus consulting fees so why even float that - that's what he's going to latch onto and it's a bogus figure. Most doctors earn in the $150k-450k range and have no spare time to supplement that. And you'll only get such a salary about a decade after college and have to pay down a six digit student debt early on. That's a good income but you'll not consider yourself rich. and you'll work hard for every penny.
 
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Mad Jack

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Except you won't. Textbooks by definition are targeted to a small audience, not the general public. And students are uniquely skilled at pirating and ripping publishers off - it's the group you least want as your target market. And there's a huge market for used books which cuts into profit margins. Which is why new text books are outrageously priced and so few educators choose to write them -- it's really a suckers play. This won't be your source of wealth, but it may enhance your prestige, leading to other opportunities.
That's why so many professors make people in their class buy their own book lol
 
S

Sardinia

That's why so many professors make people in their class buy their own book lol
Still bought the book used or got it for free from a friend who already took the course. Have been told by my professors that it was unspoken policy that the school gets a majority % cut from the sales of their study-related books.

@Law2Doc Course keys have been the recent work around to this, not so much because professors want you to buy the book but because they are too lazy to come up with their own assessments. Books now come with their own online service which they lease out to professors who teach a class and require around a $20-$50 "activation" fee for the student in order to take the textbook's assessments for the teacher to grade as daily assignments. Professors who feel like they have nothing to gain from teaching students can use the entire course key to even give the students timed exams or used the timed exams as actual exams requiring little to no extra effort on their part to tailor the assessments to their actual style of teaching.
 

RogueBanana

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Average income for doctors is about $200k-ish and some earn less. He likely won't be earning $750k plus consulting fees so why even float that - that's what he's going to latch onto and it's a bogus figure. Most doctors earn in the $150k-450k range and have no spare time to supplement that. And you'll only get such a salary about a decade after college and have to pay down a six digit student debt early on. That's a good income but you'll not consider yourself rich. and you'll work hard for every penny.
Dude I KNOW orthopedic surgeons who do just that and make 750k +
Some even make over a million. They own their own practices and consult at my company. It's possible to make a lot of money as a doc but you have to be in the right specialty and own your own practice.
 

Law2Doc

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Dude I KNOW orthopedic surgeons who do just that and make 750k +
Some even make over a million. They own their own practices and consult at my company. It's possible to make a lot of money as a doc but you have to be in the right specialty and own your own practice.
Yeah and I KNOW a guy who won the lottery. BFD. Still not relevant to the OP and his ilk, it won't be him. Nobody cares "what's possible", it's all about what's PROBABLE, in life and on this kind of thread. And probably most med school grads will end up close to the average doctors income and working awfully hard just to get it.
 

TheStallion16

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Yeah and I KNOW a guy who won the lottery. BFD. Still not relevant to the OP and his ilk, it won't be him. Nobody cares "what's possible", it's all about what's PROBABLE, in life and on this kind of thread. And probably most med school grads will end up close to the average doctors income and working awfully hard just to get it.
What a terrible way to live, limiting yourself to what's "PROBABLE". That's like saying, well most of the people in this class are going to get a C on this exam, so it's fine if I do too. No one who makes it to the top does so because they lived based on what was probable.
 

mcloaf

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What a terrible way to live, limiting yourself to what's "PROBABLE". That's like saying, well most of the people in this class are going to get a C on this exam, so it's fine if I do too. No one who makes it to the top does so because they lived based on what was probable.
We're trying to have a realistic discussion about physician compensation. Vague motivational speaking cliches don't add much to the conversation.
 

RogueBanana

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Yeah and I KNOW a guy who won the lottery. BFD. Still not relevant to the OP and his ilk, it won't be him. Nobody cares "what's possible", it's all about what's PROBABLE, in life and on this kind of thread. And probably most med school grads will end up close to the average doctors income and working awfully hard just to get it.
Don't give me that crap. I gave OP an empirical example. I know not ALL docs can make that much, but it's in no way similar to winning the lottery. These guys worked hard, got great test scores and picked a high-paying specialty. Most of them got their MBA and then opened their own practice in busy areas. It may be difficult but there is a definitive path that can be taken to achieve that level of income. It's not random like the lottery. Further, 200-400k per year is more than enough to live comfortably. I don't know how you can say that wouldn't be considered "rich" when it's 4x-8x the average US income. It's not super rich 1%, Goldman Sachs CEO but its sure as hell not average. If OP wants ridiculous money, he can have it if he puts the work in. MDs are already taking the non-probable path in life, why stop after graduation? There are many avenues an MD can pursue to bolster their income. Investing, consulting, r & d etc... Lots of medically related companies would love having an MD on staff part time.
 

JustAPhD

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Don't give me that crap. I gave OP an empirical example. I know not ALL docs can make that much, but it's in no way similar to winning the lottery. These guys worked hard, got great test scores and picked a high-paying specialty. Most of them got their MBA and then opened their own practice in busy areas. It may be difficult but there is a definitive path that can be taken to achieve that level of income. It's not random like the lottery. Further, 200-400k per year is more than enough to live comfortably. I don't know how you can say that wouldn't be considered "rich" when it's 4x-8x the average US income. It's not super rich 1%, Goldman Sachs CEO but its sure as hell not average. If OP wants ridiculous money, he can have it if he puts the work in. MDs are already taking the non-probable path in life, why stop after graduation? There are many avenues an MD can pursue to bolster their income. Investing, consulting, r & d etc... Lots of medically related companies would love having an MD on staff part time.
I don't want to put words in @Law2Doc's mouth, but all he was saying is that yes it's possible you can make that much, but if you're looking to go into medicine from a monetary perspective it would serve OP well to not even take that into account (because that's such a small fraction of doctors).

From my brief time on SDN, I've come to realize that advising other members is all about probability. From admissions to this example of possible salary, examples of "well one guy I know" do more harm than good.
 

RogueBanana

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I don't want to put words in @Law2Doc's mouth, but all he was saying is that yes it's possible you can make that much, but if you're looking to go into medicine from a monetary perspective it would serve OP well to not even take that into account (because that's such a small fraction of doctors).
I mean if OP is looking to go into medicine from a monetary standpoint he should look elsewhere for employment. I'll agree that it isn't probable to make that much, but we can all have high goals can't we?
 

JustAPhD

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I mean if OP is looking to go into medicine from a monetary standpoint he should look elsewhere for employment. I'll agree that it isn't probable to make that much, but we can all have high goals can't we?
I agree wholeheartedly that money isn't the best reason to consider medicine, but that's what OP gave us so we have to try to give him the best advice based on that.

High goals are fantastic, but you shouldn't pick a career based solely on them.
 

RogueBanana

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I agree wholeheartedly that money isn't the best reason to consider medicine, but that's what OP gave us so we have to try to give him the best advice based on that.

High goals are fantastic, but you shouldn't pick a career based solely on them.
True. That being said, the "average" MD salary is well above what he would need to live comfortably and retire relatively young. Yes he would work hard but he wouldn't be poor.
 

Mad Jack

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Dude I KNOW orthopedic surgeons who do just that and make 750k +
Some even make over a million. They own their own practices and consult at my company. It's possible to make a lot of money as a doc but you have to be in the right specialty and own your own practice.
That's the exception, rather than the rule. It's possible, but to count on doing well enough to match ortho and to be in the top 5% of earners would be hubris.
 

Goro

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The scientific term for this is called "being realistic".


What a terrible way to live, limiting yourself to what's "PROBABLE". That's like saying, well most of the people in this class are going to get a C on this exam, so it's fine if I do too. No one who makes it to the top does so because they lived based on what was probable.
 

Kurk

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Being realistic leads to being average
Amen to that brother.

Anyway, there are many ways to supplement your income as a physician; the problem is trying to find time to do it working 12 hours plus a day. Look at people like Ben Carson. Maybe publish a few books if you get the time. Start learning about finance and investing while you're in college so you don't have to suffer later (assuming you have that option). Who says you can't be a youtuber as a doctor? Make a medically related channel; competition isn't all that tight right now if you look at the few big guys like Dr Mellick and Dr Gilmore. Academics is always a feasible option among others. The key is learning all of this while you're young so you can easily apply later once you have the capital. There is nothing wrong with wanting to grow your net-worth.

In the end, the free market dictates who gets paid how much. Take advantage of it.
 

Law2Doc

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Being realistic leads to being average
You can aspire to be great. Everyone should. But when someone comes on an advice board and asks for advice there is much more value in telling them what 95% realistically will achieve than floating what the top 1% outlier manages.

Your example is the functional equivalent of someone asking "if I go to law school will I do well professionally" and me responding about them ending up a Supreme Court Justice or President of the US. Yes it could happen and certainly someone with great aspirations should strive for that, but it's a totally unrealistic (and thus misleading) response for the current context. People want and need to be advised realistically, not to be shown freak outliers. The latter is just not a helpful response, even if "theoretically possible" and even if you aspire to be great. No one says you need to be average but we are saying that on an advice board the most useful advice will be geared to the "probable" and the "realistic".
 

Goro

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And being immature leads to not getting into med school. Just saying. Outliers are exactly that.

Rah-rah pollyanna statements like "my cousin got into Harvard with a 2.0 GPA" help no one. People come here, as L2D pointed out, for realistic advice, not hugs and kisses.

Being realistic leads to being average
 
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TheStallion16

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You can aspire to be great. Everyone should. But when someone comes on an advice board and asks for advice there is much more value in telling them what 95% realistically will achieve than floating what the top 1% outlier manages.

Your example is the functional equivalent of someone asking "if I go to law school will I do well professionally" and me responding about them ending up a Supreme Court Justice or President of the US. Yes it could happen and certainly someone with great aspirations should strive for that, but it's a totally unrealistic (and thus misleading) response for the current context. People want and need to be advised realistically, not to be shown freak outliers. The latter is just not a helpful response, even if "theoretically possible" and even if you aspire to be great. No one says you need to be average but we are saying that on an advice board the most useful advice will be geared to the "probable" and the "realistic".
Fair enough, well said.
 
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