DO does not = Wanting for Primary Care

[BestDoctorEver]

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This. You don't see crappy MD students matching these specialties either. Some people with good stats may have chosen to go to a DO school for a variety of reasons and these are often the ones who go on to match great residencies. Why? Because they are and have always been great candidates. Cream will always rise to the top.

As for your second point, I gotta give it a giant "+1". FM is a great career with a fantastic lifestyle. People around here act as if someone chooses FM because they couldn't cut it in a specialty and that other doctors don't consider them "real doctors". This couldn't be further from the truth. Some brilliant minds go into FM/IM etc and are perfectly happy about their choice and are very respected by other physicians.

...

If I remember correctly, FM and Psych have the lowest average board scores. I think that is why most extrapolate that FM physicians did not do so great in med school. As for myself, I am 110% into FM regardless how well I do in med school.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Medical school is full of people who are all that and more; everyone is studying their balls off for the boards and roughly 40% will do average to below average on their boards.

You aren't competing with those who didn't get into medical school (as with the MCAT). You're competing with kids who go to Stanford, Johns Hopkins and Yale, along with all the other MD schools and all the other DO schools. That's a much more rigorous group of students than pre-meds.

Like I said, doing average on the USMLE is a tremendous feat.

I was shocked when to one of my friends at an MD school told me that the average in each exam they had in their first year was in the mid-to-upper 80s. Basically, most have getten As and Bs in every test. That is crazy! He said he is happy that the school has 'Pass or Fail' grade policy.

 

[EMDO2018]

The older folk like to call us the entitlement generation. OP definitely is.

 

[notbobtrustme]

The older folk like to call us the entitlement generation. OP definitely is.

nah, this generation has never had it so bad. You know what the older generation needed to do to specialize? Show up. The USMLE didn't exist until 1992. If you wanted to be a dermatologist or cardiologist or w/e, all you had to do was pass medical school and show up to the residency of your choice. The competition to get into medical school was not even a fraction of what it is today. The old timers would be chewed apart by our system today. The only thing they have going for them is the old work hour restrictions, but even then, what the ACGME did was compress 100+ hours of work into 80 hours. The same amount of patients, work and other crap still has to be done, you just have to do it in 80 hours instead of 110 or w/e it is. And there is more work today because we can treat so many more conditions.

 

[Seth Joo]

I think there is some truth to the OP's post, many people in DO schools are there because they could not get into MD schools. DO schools tend to promote and encourage their students to become primary care doctors. A lot of students though seem to have similar goals to MD students.

 

[SLC]

The premise of the OP is quite false in my opinion and experience. I've said it before, and I'll say it again here; at my school, the largest and best funded student group by far is the Family Medicine interest group. It's not even close. The internal medicine interest group is probably the next biggest.

As for the USMLE, I didn't take the time to study for it like I should have. I started in late April of this year, and took it in mid-early June. I ended up doing a little above the average. Do I wish I got higher? sure, anyone who says they don't is lying. But in reality, my score might be higher than is really needed for what I want to do. Perhaps I could chase down something more competitive? I don't have any interest in doing so, so it's really a moot point.

 

[Setto]

I think there is some truth to the OP's post, many people in DO schools are there because they could not get into MD schools. DO schools tend to promote and encourage their students to become primary care doctors. A lot of students though seem to have similar goals to MD students.

There is no difference between the goals of MD vs DO. This post doesn't make a lick of sense. Many MDs aim for primary care, does that mean they have the goals of a DO and are truly DOs at heart? I can't really think of one goal that a DO would have that an MD wouldn't of visa versa.

 

[Mosonik]

The premise of the OP is quite false in my opinion and experience. I've said it before, and I'll say it again here; at my school, the largest and best funded student group by far is the Family Medicine interest group. It's not even close. The internal medicine interest group is probably the next biggest.

As for the USMLE, I didn't take the time to study for it like I should have. I started in late April of this year, and took it in mid-early June. I ended up doing a little above the average. Do I wish I got higher? sure, anyone who says they don't is lying. But in reality, my score might be higher than is really needed for what I want to do. Perhaps I could chase down something more competitive? I don't have any interest in doing so, so it's really a moot point.

Not to high jack this thread but what resources did you use SLC to prepare for COMLEX and then USMLE?

 

[SLC]

There is no difference between the goals of MD vs DO. This post doesn't make a lick of sense. Many MDs aim for primary care, does that mean they have the goals of a DO and are truly DOs at heart? I can't really think of one goal that a DO would have that an MD wouldn't of visa versa.

Very true, though I do think there's something to be said about self-selection among DO students. IOW, I wouldn't be surprised to find that DO students claimed interest in Prim. care at higher rates than MD students. DO just seems to attract a certain type in my limited experience. That being said, the majority of my former neighbors (at an allopathic medical school where I went to undergrad) chose careers in Primary Care or less competitive specialties like Anesthesia, Path, or EM even with résumés that could have gotten them into things like Derm and Radiation Oncology.

 

[SLC]

Not to high jack this thread but what resources did you use SLC to prepare for COMLEX and then USMLE?

I used FirstAid 2013 and USMLEworld for the USMLE. I also listened to Goljian in the car and on my runs sometimes (very good lecture series).

FirstAid 2013 and COMBANK for the COMLEX.

In hindsight; FirstAid and UWorld would have been more than sufficient for both (a good review of lecture material from OPP could have replaced the COMBANK subscription). But if you want COMLEX style questions, I think COMBANK was decent.

 

[Setto]

Very true, though I do think there's something to be said about self-selection among DO students. IOW, I wouldn't be surprised to find that DO students claimed interest in Prim. care at higher rates than MD students. DO just seems to attract a certain type in my limited experience. That being said, the majority of my former neighbors (at an allopathic medical school where I went to undergrad) chose careers in Primary Care or less competitive specialties like Anesthesia, Path, or EM even with résumés that could have gotten them into things like Derm and Radiation Oncology.

And it makes total sense! Why bother trying to match a residency that you have zero interest in?!

 

[cliquesh]

And it makes total sense! Why bother trying to match a residency that you have zero interest in?!

Many people will go to medical school and never find a speciality they are passionate about, so they end up picking something that has the best lifestyle/compensation.

 

[CSqueed]

There are too many posts I wanted to reply to but I guess I'll just make general responses.

Surveys prove DO's are more interested in Primary Care than MD's. We have all taken surveys so we know how invalid they can be. It is quite hypocritical when people fight to prove how equal MDs are to DOs in every way today yet in their next posts, add how DOs are more interested in primary care for the sake of shooting down my point. I happen to believe that today, the premeds that go to MD school and the premeds that go to DO school have almost identical interests with the field of medicine. We all know the majority of people who go to DO school did not get into MD schools in that particular cycle even though we all have a "friend" at our DO school who turned down MD, received a 37 on the MCAT, etc etc. It is when the students go through DO school is when they start to shift their interests more into primary care for the various reasons that I already stated.

Angry post about low USMLE, my masterful deduction methods lead me to believe YOU, OP are the one with the 215 on the USMLE and are just bitter about going into primary care. ... I am seriously not going to waste my "sit on my *** computer time" on this one.

DO discrimination exists in the ACGME match. Correct. Anyone who says otherwise needs to pull their head out of the ground. My personal opinion to why such a discrimination in GENERAL exists and will continue to exist is down to a few things that I'm sure long-time members already know about.

1) Face it, DO schools are easier to get into, I don't need to waste time pulling up numbers.

2) DO schools are called "Osteopathic medical schools", for example, "Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine", "Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine". MD schools don't include the term "allopathic". One step to general equality would be to fix something small like this so instead of "Albany Medical College", perhaps "Albany Allopathic Medical College" would suffice. In reality, the term "allopathic" is used by the MD community like 0.1% of the time and is basically a term that only DO's throw around. All in all, constantly slapping on the "osteopathic" tag onto school names already throws DO schools out of the "general medical school" bunch.

3) Like some people have said before, DO schools tend to have a lot of students that don't really "academically cut it". For every DO student I met on rotations who had a 32+ on their MCAT there were about 10 more DO students who didn't break 30. In fact, it is not unheard of that applicants who scored 25 on the MCAT get into DO medical schools every cycle. You can even look up the percentiles of MCAT scores and a 25, I am pretty sure doesn't even put you at the 50 percentile for premeds who take the exam. That means the average premed (not someone who gets accepted yet) still has a great chance at getting into a DO school (not counting the GPA in this matter). When you start osteopathic medical school, you will quickly find out which of your peers clearly won't do well on the boards. I will give you a hint, it is always the guy who barely passes all of their classes with the notion that all residencies care about are the board scores. This is the guy who continuously boasts the famous saying "what do you call the lowest student in medical school? A doctor." and pretty much ends up ruining the DO image at rotation sites. Don't kid yourself, this guy always exists.

I see some premeds on this thread who are aspiring to study their ***es off from day one. That is the smartest thing you can do. Don't let up in osteopathic medical schools and listen to groups who aspire to "Just Pass". All I am doing is giving a warning for some other premeds on here.

 

[user3]

There are too many posts I wanted to reply to but I guess I'll just make general responses.

Surveys prove DO's are more interested in Primary Care than MD's. We have all taken surveys so we know how invalid they can be. It is quite hypocritical when people fight to prove how equal MDs are to DOs in every way today yet in their next posts, add how DOs are more interested in primary care for the sake of shooting down my point. I happen to believe that today, the premeds that go to MD school and the premeds that go to DO school have almost identical interests with the field of medicine. We all know the majority of people who go to DO school did not get into MD schools in that particular cycle even though we all have a "friend" at our DO school who turned down MD, received a 37 on the MCAT, etc etc. It is when the students go through DO school is when they start to shift their interests more into primary care for the various reasons that I already stated.

Angry post about low USMLE, my masterful deduction methods lead me to believe YOU, OP are the one with the 215 on the USMLE and are just bitter about going into primary care. ... I am seriously not going to waste my "sit on my *** computer time" on this one.

DO discrimination exists in the ACGME match. Correct. Anyone who says otherwise needs to pull their head out of the ground. My personal opinion to why such a discrimination in GENERAL exists and will continue to exist is down to a few things that I'm sure long-time members already know about.

1) Face it, DO schools are easier to get into, I don't need to waste time pulling up numbers.

2) DO schools are called "Osteopathic medical schools", for example, "Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine", "Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine". MD schools don't include the term "allopathic". One step to general equality would be to fix something small like this so instead of "Albany Medical College", perhaps "Albany Allopathic Medical College" would suffice. In reality, the term "allopathic" is used by the MD community like 0.1% of the time and is basically a term that only DO's throw around. All in all, constantly slapping on the "osteopathic" tag onto school names already throws DO schools out of the "general medical school" bunch.

3) Like some people have said before, DO schools tend to have a lot of students that don't really "academically cut it". For every DO student I met on rotations who had a 32+ on their MCAT there were about 10 more DO students who didn't break 30. In fact, it is not unheard of that applicants who scored 25 on the MCAT get into DO medical schools every cycle. You can even look up the percentiles of MCAT scores and a 25, I am pretty sure doesn't even put you at the 50 percentile for premeds who take the exam. That means the average premed (not someone who gets accepted yet) still has a great chance at getting into a DO school (not counting the GPA in this matter). When you start osteopathic medical school, you will quickly find out which of your peers clearly won't do well on the boards. I will give you a hint, it is always the guy who barely passes all of their classes with the notion that all residencies care about are the board scores. This is the guy who continuously boasts the famous saying "what do you call the lowest student in medical school? A doctor." and pretty much ends up ruining the DO image at rotation sites. Don't kid yourself, this guy always exists.

I see some premeds on this thread who are aspiring to study their ***es off from day one. That is the smartest thing you can do. Don't let up in osteopathic medical schools and listen to groups who aspire to "Just Pass". All I am doing is giving a warning for some other premeds on here.

As far as admission standards go, I have to agree with you. competitiveness seems to begin around 3.00/3.00/24, mainly due to so many new schools.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

If you wanted to be a dermatologist or cardiologist or w/e, all you had to do was pass medical school and show up to the residency of your choice. The competition to get into medical school was not even a fraction of what it is today.

It's never a good idea to let the facts get in the way of a good rant, but just for the sake of history, a few points. First, it is true about derm as it was not popular at all in the 80's. However, it is also true that relatively speaking many top IM spots were more competitive and cardiology was always a challenge as a fellowship, although the fellowship match did not exist. It is not really true about the competitiveness to get into med school issue either, but times and expectations have changed so much it is a nearly impossible comparison to make meaningfully.

Oh yes, about the USMLE not existing? Well, that part is true, it was called NBME part 1,2,3 then and it is true that it was not as important a part of residency application as the current USMLE, It was however, essentially the same idea and was certainly a part of one's residency application. It is accurate however, that letters of rec were relatively more important as were the subjective residency evaluations in the 1980's match than they are now compared to Step 1 results.

 

[Seth Joo]

Most people traditionally think of doctors as MDs. And most premeds see themselves becoming MDs. DOs in recent years have gained equivalent practice rights to MDs and we are in every specialty of medicine, also in academia, that being said, the type of people who go to DO schools these days are similar to people who went to lower and middle tier MD schools many years ago. A couple of decades ago, the average stats for lower tier MD schools was quite similar to many DO schools today.

Its a heck of a lot easier to get into a DO school than an MD school. I went through the admissions process at both, I got a lot of love from DO schools, had 8 interviews, was invited to 10 interviews total. Many people who go to DO schools are the same kind of aggressive type A achievers that you would find in MD schools, it just happens that our stats tend to be a bit lower.

 

[bobthesun]

People should be more informed before deciding what school to go to. And why are people so quick to dismiss MCAT performance as a predictor of step one performance? Just because you got into med school you don't instantly become as smart as everyone in your class. Im betting the guys with the 35 MCAT will ON AVERAGE do better on the boards than the guy with the 22 MCAT. And though most hate to admit this, the MCAT has become a lot like an IQ test. It measures your ability to remember LARGE amounts or material WELL . It also test reasoning ability. So since DO school take slightly less academically talented students, they probably do slightly worse on the USMLE.

I disagree with this. The MCAT has went from a more subject based exam to one that is extremely critical thinking. The biology section is very strong proof of this. It is not about the amount you have digested, but more your ability to analyze a passage and come to the best conclusion.

I have seen my friend's NBME practice exams for the step I and although there is a good amount of critical thinking involved, it is more bulk memorization. So they are not that similar.

As someone who has scored 135+ on an IQ test I can tell you that the MCAT is not by any means an IQ test. It tests your breadth of knowledge. Generally the more time I spent studying(ie memorizing) the higher score I get. IQ tests study brain power and capacity--not maturity and drive, which is more important for being a good doctor. I have been to Mensa meetings and can say for certain there are CEO's and HS dropout bus drivers at our get together.

 

[EMDO2018]

As someone who has scored 135+ on an IQ test I can tell you that the MCAT is not by any means an IQ test. It tests your breadth of knowledge. Generally the more time I spent studying(ie memorizing) the higher score I get. IQ tests study brain power and capacity--not maturity and drive, which is more important for being a good doctor. I have been to Mensa meetings and can say for certain there are CEO's and HS dropout bus drivers at our get together.

Not so subtle, not so humble brag??? IQ is a pathetic measure of intelligence anyway.

 

[koan]

I see some premeds on this thread who are aspiring to study their ***es off from day one. That is the smartest thing you can do. Don't let up in osteopathic medical schools and listen to groups who aspire to "Just Pass". All I am doing is giving a warning for some other premeds on here.

This is good advice for those who are accepted this year. Regardless of what specialty you hope to pursue, having high preclinical grades and board scores will always give you more opportunities for residency. You need to be ready to bust your a** because undergrad will look like a joke in comparison. The average DO student in your class will have limitations as to what specialties / programs are realistic for them and whether they even match. Be above average and you'll maximize those opportunities for yourself; it's about all you have in your power to control. You cannot change DO bias except by going out on rotations and not being a tool, working hard, matching well and becoming a great example of "that so-and-so doctor is a DO and he's really good". Sure, everyone wants to be above average, but not everyone is willing to work hard for it. Most people are lazy. DO students have a little less wiggle room to be lazy.

 

[bobthesun]

Not so subtle, not so humble brag??? IQ is a pathetic measure of intelligence anyway.

Haha it's an anonymous forum so I didn't really consider it bragging. If you care to know my gpa and mcat are probably worse than 90% of this forum. Also, I agree. I think it's not a good measure of intelligence at all. But being a mensa member has its perks so I play along 🙂

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Most people traditionally think of doctors as MDs. And most premeds see themselves becoming MDs. DOs in recent years have gained equivalent practice rights to MDs and we are in every specialty of medicine, also in academia, that being said, the type of people who go to DO schools these days are similar to people who went to lower and middle tier MD schools many years ago. A couple of decades ago, the average stats for lower tier MD schools was quite similar to many DO schools today.

Its a heck of a lot easier to get into a DO school than an MD school. I went through the admissions process at both, I got a lot of love from DO schools, had 8 interviews, was invited to 10 interviews total. Many people who go to DO schools are the same kind of aggressive type A achievers that you would find in MD schools, it just happens that our stats tend to be a bit lower.

I agree with you that people who go into med school in general are type A achievers. It happens that the competition to get into MD is a lot stiffer. If all the DO schools turned into MD schools, we will have a lot applicants who got into MD with low stats (3.4 c/sGPA, 26 MCAT). These DO-turned-MD schools will be low tiers MD just like Howard, Meharry etc... On average the DO students might be less 'driven' (for lack of a better word) than MD students, but that does not mean they are not cut out to be good physicians.

 

[Back 5]

On average the DO students might be less 'driven' (for lack of a better word) than MD students, but that does not mean they are not cut out to be good physicians.

I am in DO school because my academic performance 10+ years ago prevented me from getting into MD school. Yes, I understand and appreciate the DO philosophy, but I would have taken the path of least resistance if I was able. This has nothing to do with being less 'driven' and, in fact, puts a chip on my shoulder and makes me want to do that much better than my MD counterparts when it comes to boards.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I am in DO school because my academic performance 10+ years ago prevented me from getting into MD school. Yes, I understand and appreciate the DO philosophy, but I would have taken the path of least resistance if I was able. This has nothing to do with being less 'driven' and, in fact, puts a chip on my shoulder and makes me want to do that much better than my MD counterparts when it comes to boards.

Ok... Maybe I shouldn't use the words 'less driven', but my post was an attempt to answer some of the posters here who 'seem' to come across as saying that many DO students are not cut out to be good physicians. I think you got my point! I apologize if my post offended you or others in this forum.

 

[EMDO2018]

I agree with you that people who go into med school in general are type A achievers. It happens that the competition to get into MD is a lot stiffer. If all the DO schools turned into MD schools, we will have a lot applicants who got into MD with low stats (3.4 c/sGPA, 26 MCAT). These DO-turned-MD schools will be low tiers MD just like Howard, Meharry etc... On average the DO students might be less 'driven' (for lack of a better word) than MD students, but that does not mean they are not cut out to be good physicians.

Im not sure about this, there are some people who have stats that are not quite good enough for MD maybe 28-30, 3.5 who would never do DO. I have a friend with similar stats that decided to go to grad school. Stupid move if you ask me.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Im not sure about this, there are some people who have stats that are not quite good enough for MD maybe 28-30, 3.5 who would never do DO. I have a friend with similar stats that decided to go to grad school. Stupid move if you ask me.

I know a friend with competitive stats who chose SGU over DO. When I asked why, he said "MD degree is more marketable."

No matter how their stats can be, some people are just short-sighted. It's all part of the cognitive imperfections of being a homo sapien.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

This is good advice for those who are accepted this year. Regardless of what specialty you hope to pursue, having high preclinical grades and board scores will always give you more opportunities for residency. You need to be ready to bust your a** because undergrad will look like a joke in comparison. The average DO student in your class will have limitations as to what specialties / programs are realistic for them and whether they even match. Be above average and you'll maximize those opportunities for yourself; it's about all you have in your power to control. You cannot change DO bias except by going out on rotations and not being a tool, working hard, matching well and becoming a great example of "that so-and-so doctor is a DO and he's really good". Sure, everyone wants to be above average, but not everyone is willing to work hard for it. Most people are lazy. DO students have a little less wiggle room to be lazy.

I agree. On all the interviews I went to, the osteopathic medical students told me to just worry about getting C's because it still makes you a doctor.

Personally, I am relieved that a 70 = graduating, it puts less pressure on me unlike undergrad where a string of C's will cut my med school application prospects in half.

Nonetheless, if you bust your ass in basic sciences, you'll have a good head start for board prep. I don't think that many students who just want a string of minimum passes during pre-clinicals will truly outshine the other higher-achievers when taking Step 1 (please don't tell me about your cousin's friend's girlfriend's daughter who got a 260 just from studying Step 1 in two days, I'm making a general statement).

 

[EMDO2018]

I agree. On all the interviews I went to, the osteopathic medical students told me to just worry about getting C's because it still makes you a doctor.

Personally, I am relieved that a 70 = graduating, it puts less pressure on me unlike undergrad where a string of C's will cut my med school application prospects in half.

Nonetheless, if you bust your ass in basic sciences, you'll have a good head start for board prep. I don't think that many students who just want a string of minimum passes during pre-clinicals will truly outshine the other higher-achievers when taking Step 1 (please don't tell me about your cousin's friend's girlfriend's daughter who got a 260 just from studying Step 1 in two days, I'm making a general statement).

lol people tend to make comments like this after they have been away from the MCAT for a while too.

 

[Instatewaiter]

As someone who has scored 135+ on an IQ test I can tell you that the MCAT is not by any means an IQ test. It tests your breadth of knowledge. Generally the more time I spent studying(ie memorizing) the higher score I get. IQ tests study brain power and capacity--not maturity and drive, which is more important for being a good doctor. I have been to Mensa meetings and can say for certain there are CEO's and HS dropout bus drivers at our get together.

So you scored 136? Ha

In the same post you post your IQ and that you are a member of Mensa... you are a giant toolbag. I mean an absolutely massive douchnozzle of the highest order. There has never been a more douchey post on SDN.

Congratulations. Someone should give you an award

 

[Espadaleader]

Many people on this thread complain about discrimination in ACGME residencies. Get real. Listen, if anything DOs have an advantage. They can participate in the ACGME match and AOA match. MDs have to compete with IMGs and DOs for spots in ACGME programs and with the number of DO students doubling, it's going to put more
pressure on MDs. Only DOs can match AOA so if you're a below average DO student, maybe you can match in a AOA program. A below average MD student is competing against excellent MD and DO students (without the ability to match into AOA) and IMGs. That's unfair.

 

[user3]

Many people on this thread complain about discrimination in ACGME residencies. Get real. Listen, if anything DOs have an advantage. They can participate in the ACGME match and AOA match. MDs have to compete with IMGs and DOs for spots in ACGME programs and with the number of DO students doubling, it's going to put more
pressure on MDs. Only DOs can match AOA so if you're a below average DO student, maybe you can match in a AOA program. A below average MD student is competing against excellent MD and DO students (without the ability to match into AOA) and IMGs. That's unfair.

did you see my post about the success rate of USMD students with below average (210s) step I score in most specialties? For example, 75% in ENT and 79% in General Surgery.

 

[wjs010]

You can do PMR with a 215. Great lifestyle and res with decent pay

 

[EMDO2018]

If AOA had GME that was just as good as ACGME and offered more specialties, no DOs would do the ACGME match. Who wants to take 2 step exams??? AOA needs to step up is GME game, improve quality and have at least enough spots for the number of students graduating.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

You can do PMR with a 215. Great lifestyle and res with decent pay

how much on average does PMR attendings make?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

how much on average does PMR attendings make?

The same as other residents probably?
They make better than IM post graduate I think though.

 

[Espadaleader]

did you see my post about the success rate of USMD students with below average (210s) step I score in most specialties? For example, 75% in ENT and 79% in General Surgery.

Yes, I saw it. However, my point is that ACGME's hostility against DOs exist because of this. The AOA will DOUBLE the amount of DO graduates by 2016 funneling more DO students into ACGME residencies. It is irresponsible for the AOA to do this. It's childish. The AOA should make sure that students are able to match into quality AOA residencies. The AOA cannot count on ACGME to support MD students and osteopathic students too. Its not their responsibility.

 

[cliquesh]

how much on average does PMR attendings make?

The 2010 MGMA physician salary survey says the average salary for PM&R is $278k.

 

[cliquesh]

Yes, I saw it. However, my point is that ACGME's hostility against DOs exist because of this. The AOA will DOUBLE the amount of DO graduates by 2016 funneling more DO students into ACGME residencies. It is irresponsible for the AOA to do this. It's childish. The AOA should make sure that students are able to match into quality AOA residencies. The AOA cannot count on ACGME to support MD students and osteopathic students too. Its not their responsibility.

Acgme residencies are not exclusively for USMD students. If anything, there shouldn't be AOA residencies. It's kind of a scam that there are DO only residencies.

 

[Bacchus]

The 2010 MGMA physician salary survey says the average salary for PM&R is $278k.

And its yet one of those specialties where most people ask, "WTF do you do?" haha. I almost never refer to PMR in the office and I think I should be doing it more often.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

The 2010 MGMA physician salary survey says the average salary for PM&R is $278k.

That is about 100k more than IM, FM and Peds...Not bad IMO!

 

[wjs010]

how much on average does PMR attendings make?

I mean it's really hard to say. I'm pretty sure attendings as regular PMR docs make anywhere from 200k on up. Some academics even less than 200.. But you can do fellowships after and then it all depends. But the really cool thing about PMR is the no call residency 😀

 

[retro]

One point that people seem to dismiss is that DO schools in general aren't that supportive of their students specializing. Osteopathic medical schools have unspoken obligation to send certain % of the student body to primary care (more like a requirement that needed to be met for the school to open in the first place, get support, funding, etc). In other words, DO schools don't give a flying crap if the student's dreams of specializing are shattered due to low board scores or whatever reason. All they care about is the % matching into ANY field of residency so they can boast 98% match rate blah blah. In fact, some DO schools even seem to gear students toward primary care by taking away student's time to study for the board (I'm not saying primary care sucks, I'm just saying that every student has different interest in mind, and school should at least leave them alone to try their best to land that residency of interest, rather than being a hindrance).
That's why some DO schools go as far as accepting people with MCAT ~25, because they know these students will likely match SOMEWHERE eventually. This should stop for the sake of DO school's future. It's hard to deny the correlation between MCAT and Step 1, and accepting students with lower credentials will continue to foster students with lower board scores. Also, what frustrates me with DO schools is that they put way too much emphasis on OMM. Sure, the students agreed to pursue the osteopathic philosophy, but little did we know it would take up a bulk of our board prep time. Some premeds may think, "oh it's just one more class, not a big deal.." but on top of all the rigorous classwork, one additional class + lab for all 4 semesters makes a lot of difference. As much as I respect AT Still and all his work, it pisses me off to see myself spending way too much time in OMM while my MD counterparts are underlining First Aid. On top of this, DO schools in general give less time to study for Step 1 at the end of 2nd year. Most DO schools give ~ 4 weeks (worst was CCOM with 2 weeks...seriously, that's not even funny) while MD schools give 6~8 weeks.
The point I'm getting at is that DO schools are less concerned about their students excelling in board, and they could care less about a student's dreams of specializing being shattered. If any premeds out there plan on going DO route, just be aware of these obstacles in the process of achieving high board score, and be ready to work extra harder. Yes, there will be discrimination, but it can be overcome if your mind and soul are set in killing the board.

 

[wjs010]

One point that people seem to dismiss is that DO schools in general aren't that supportive of their students specializing. Osteopathic medical schools have unspoken obligation to send certain % of the student body to primary care (more like a requirement that needed to be met for the school to open in the first place, get support, funding, etc). In other words, DO schools don't give a flying crap if the student's dreams of specializing are shattered due to low board scores or whatever reason. All they care about is the % matching into ANY field of residency so they can boast 98% match rate blah blah. In fact, some DO schools even seem to gear students toward primary care by taking away student's time to study for the board (I'm not saying primary care sucks, I'm just saying that every student has different interest in mind, and school should at least leave them alone to try their best to land that residency of interest, rather than being a hindrance).
That's why some DO schools go as far as accepting people with MCAT ~25, because they know these students will likely match SOMEWHERE eventually. This should stop for the sake of DO school's future. It's hard to deny the correlation between MCAT and Step 1, and accepting students with lower credentials will continue to foster students with lower board scores. Also, what frustrates me with DO schools is that they put way too much emphasis on OMM. Sure, the students agreed to pursue the osteopathic philosophy, but little did we know it would take up a bulk of our board prep time. Some premeds may think, "oh it's just one more class, not a big deal.." but on top of all the rigorous classwork, one additional class + lab for all 4 semesters makes a lot of difference. As much as I respect AT Still and all his work, it pisses me off to see myself spending way too much time in OMM while my MD counterparts are underlining First Aid. On top of this, DO schools in general give less time to study for Step 1 at the end of 2nd year. Most DO schools give ~ 4 weeks (worst was CCOM with 2 weeks...seriously, that's not even funny) while MD schools give 6~8 weeks.
The point I'm getting at is that DO schools are less concerned about their students excelling in board, and they could care less about a student's dreams of specializing being shattered. If any premeds out there plan on going DO route, just be aware of these obstacles in the process of achieving high board score, and be ready to work extra harder. Yes, there will be discrimination, but it can be overcome if your mind and soul are set in killing the board.

I definitely agree with a lot of this. The main thing negatively I have with DO is that they really don't give enough time for studying for boards. 4 weeks. Why don't they find a way to change that? Don't they know they get more advertising if they support the student as much as possible in getting high boards?

 

[Elevencents]

I definitely agree with a lot of this. The main thing negatively I have with DO is that they really don't give enough time for studying for boards. 4 weeks. Why don't they find a way to change that? Don't they know they get more advertising if they support the student as much as possible in getting high boards?

I could be wrong, but didn't you have a sub par MCAT score? I'd just be thankful you're getting the opportunity to train to be a physician. I know I am thankful for them overlooking a horrendous gpa from over 10 years ago and giving me a chance.

 

[wjs010]

I could be wrong, but didn't you have a sub par MCAT score? I'd just be thankful you're getting the opportunity to train to be a physician. I know I am thankful for them overlooking a horrendous gpa from over 10 years ago and giving me a chance.

Even if I wasn't already happy to have been given the chance of becoming a physician, my statement would still be true. Whether or not I make a 20 or a 45 on the mcat, DO schools don't provide as much board prep time as MD schools. That may be negligible. I'm not sure yet.

 

[Elevencents]

Even if I wasn't already happy to have been given the chance of becoming a physician, my statement would still be true. Whether or not I make a 20 or a 45 on the mcat, DO schools don't provide as much board prep time as MD schools. That may be negligible. I'm not sure yet.

Posts from those who have been successful on the boards leads me to believe you don't need more than 4-6 weeks if you have been diligent in your coursework. Most DO schools that I know of provide you with that amount of time, so I don't think that's really an issue.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Many people on this thread complain about discrimination in ACGME residencies. Get real. Listen, if anything DOs have an advantage. They can participate in the ACGME match and AOA match. MDs have to compete with IMGs and DOs for spots in ACGME programs and with the number of DO students doubling, it's going to put more
pressure on MDs. Only DOs can match AOA so if you're a below average DO student, maybe you can match in a AOA program. A below average MD student is competing against excellent MD and DO students (without the ability to match into AOA) and IMGs. That's unfair.

Two points:
First, please change your status from Fellow (which is someone who has finished residency and is doing post-residency training) to pre-medical. Thank you.

Second, that "competition" you speak of rarely causes problems for below average MD students. Want proof, look at the worst matches for any MD school... they tend to still be stronger than most of the matches on an osteopathic match list. IMGs tend to fight an uphill battle and osteopathic training is often... less than ideal in terms of volume, complexity, quality of hospital and locations. Really it is not unfair for the below average MD students. They had their fair shot by getting into an MD school but ended up in the bottom half. They still fare better than their DO and IMG counterparis. It is unfair for the DOs and IMGs who fight an uphill battle to get into a decent residency.

 

[Seth Joo]

Many people on this thread complain about discrimination in ACGME residencies. Get real. Listen, if anything DOs have an advantage. They can participate in the ACGME match and AOA match. MDs have to compete with IMGs and DOs for spots in ACGME programs and with the number of DO students doubling, it's going to put more
pressure on MDs. Only DOs can match AOA so if you're a below average DO student, maybe you can match in a AOA program. A below average MD student is competing against excellent MD and DO students (without the ability to match into AOA) and IMGs. That's unfair.

If AOA residencies were of the same quality as ACGME ones, then we would have an advantage but the reality is that they are not and there are not enough of them. The OP is correct that many people who are currently in DO schools never had an intention to become primary care doctors and only do so because its harder for DOs to specialize. Even many DO schools write into their charters that their goal is to create primary care doctors.

 

[Moose A Moose]

I know I'm going to be a deeply motivated student. I hope that being a DO student doesn't hinder my goals, but I'll cross that bridge once I get there.

My goal is to achieve the highest gpa I can during the first 2 years as well as the highest usmle/comlex scores I could possibly attain.

If I achieve those goals, I'm betting I can get a good residency placement.

Cue golden trumpets from mountains on high.