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I am an osteopathic medical student and have lurked on SDN here and there and there are some false assumptions I want to clear up that premeds and even OMS1/2's have been making and to be blatant, it is quite unfortunate that people on this forum are being misled.

The assumption that most students in DO schools want to go into primary care is FALSE, I repeat, FALSE. When premeds and even OMS1's observe match lists and see mostly Primary Care, they like to reassure themselves it's okay because most of those students wanted to be primary care because it matches the themes of Osteopathy and (continue on about how osteopathy is like the calling for primary care).... No. I am sure premeds here who even interviewed at the DO schools have been asked sometimes by the dean to raise their hand if they were interested in specializing, and I am sure more than half of the people raised their hand. After seeing most of my friends go through their 3rd and 4th years. What we like to call the "DO reality bomb" hit us.

Let me explain. When you begin osteopathic medical school, you meet your peers and your faculty. You are engulfed in a world of DOs and in this world, you all join hands and believe that anything is possible. More than half of your friends have aspirations for specializations, in fact when you meet someone who is genuinely interested in going into primary care, there is this aura of caring and humbleness about them because they don't care about the money, and only care about curing sickness, etc. It is not the commonality when you begin school. The "DO reality bomb" is the moment that most of the student body retrieves their USMLEs and realize their dreams of specializing are shoddy.

Now, before I proceed, don't get me wrong, I am not saying ALL DO's are barred from specializing, I am just saying MOST usually have to change plans 3rd year when they realize their 215 on the USMLE won't be enough. This is why most osteopathic students end up "settling", as you may, for family medicine or plain internal medicine. As far as AOA, let's be realistic, there are not enough specializing residencies in the DO world to accommodate the initial dreams of OMS1's and the opening of new DO schools only makes that drastically worse.

My advice is this. If you absolutely cannot see yourself doing Primary Care at ALL, do not go DO. Do whatever it takes to build your application and reapply MD. I have seen my peers dreams smashed when the MD student gets an interview over them with a worse USMLE. It is a huge gamble if you are black and white about what you want to go into with DO schools. Beggars cannot be Choosers.
 

Dreamstoo

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I am an osteopathic medical student and have lurked on SDN here and there and there are some false assumptions I want to clear up that premeds and even OMS1/2's have been making and to be blatant, it is quite unfortunate that people on this forum are being misled.

The assumption that most students in DO schools want to go into primary care is FALSE, I repeat, FALSE. When premeds and even OMS1's observe match lists and see mostly Primary Care, they like to reassure themselves it's okay because most of those students wanted to be primary care because it matches the themes of Osteopathy and (continue on about how osteopathy is like the calling for primary care).... No. I am sure premeds here who even interviewed at the DO schools have been asked sometimes by the dean to raise their hand if they were interested in specializing, and I am sure more than half of the people raised their hand. After seeing most of my friends go through their 3rd and 4th years. What we like to call the "DO reality bomb" hit us.

Let me explain. When you begin osteopathic medical school, you meet your peers and your faculty. You are engulfed in a world of DOs and in this world, you all join hands and believe that anything is possible. More than half of your friends have aspirations for specializations, in fact when you meet someone who is genuinely interested in going into primary care, there is this aura of caring and humbleness about them because they don't care about the money, and only care about curing sickness, etc. It is not the commonality when you begin school. The "DO reality bomb" is the moment that most of the student body retrieves their USMLEs and realize their dreams of specializing are shoddy.

Now, before I proceed, don't get me wrong, I am not saying ALL DO's are barred from specializing, I am just saying MOST usually have to change plans 3rd year when they realize their 215 on the USMLE won't be enough. This is why most osteopathic students end up "settling", as you may, for family medicine or plain internal medicine. As far as AOA, let's be realistic, there are not enough specializing residencies in the DO world to accommodate the initial dreams of OMS1's and the opening of new DO schools only makes that drastically worse.

My advice is this. If you absolutely cannot see yourself doing Primary Care at ALL, do not go DO. Do whatever it takes to build your application and reapply MD. I have seen my peers dreams smashed when the MD student gets an interview over them with a worse USMLE. It is a huge gamble if you are black and white about what you want to go into with DO schools. Beggars cannot be Choosers.
I get such different responses from DOs I have spoken to. Yes, they said that some fields are pretty much impossible to get as DO but many specialties are doable. I know of three DO cardiologists in my area. I do admit; however, that being a DO orthopedic surgeon is very very rare. The only spine/orthopedic surgeon I know of went to a top 10 MD and graduated at the top of his class. Guy is pretty young and is making bucket loads of money.
 
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I get such different responses from DOs I have spoken to. Yes, they said that some fields are pretty much impossible to get as DO but many specialties are doable. I know of three DO cardiologists in my area. I do admit; however, that being a DO orthopedic surgeon is very very rare. The only spine/orthopedic surgeon I know of went to a top 10 MD and graduated at the top of his class. Guy is pretty young and is making bucket loads of money.
Of course a lot of specialties are doable. When only 3 people match into a specialty in the class, it is doable. I am just heeding warning to some of the premeds that barely squeaked into a DO school who have absolutely no desire to go into primary care. You would be doing yourself a disservice by attending a DO school with the notion that you only want to do surgery. I just think to ease the biased reality of being a DO, you have to keep that open mind for primary care when the rotations begin.
 

Dreamstoo

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Of course a lot of specialties are doable. When only 3 people match into a specialty in the class, it is doable. I am just heeding warning to some of the premeds that barely squeaked into a DO school who have absolutely no desire to go into primary care. You would be doing yourself a disservice by attending a DO school with the notion that you only want to do surgery. I just think to ease the biased reality of being a DO, you have to keep that open mind for primary care when the rotations begin.
I didn't mean class. It's like family friend's kids who have gotten in as DOs. I have kept my mind open. If I can't become an orthopedic surgeon, I still have vast interest in sports medicine. I am perfectly fine pursuing family medicine then do a fellowship in sports medicine. I haven't even been exposed to medical school yet so I wouldn't be surprised if I prefer family medicine over any type of surgery.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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what a phrase, can we just rename OMT this?


I think you have a small point. Probably DOs have more difficulty matching into specialties. That being said a lot of specialties and subspecialties aren't competitive and as a few people on Osteo have said will genuinely take anyone with a pulse.

So I think it's better to examine what DOs cannot probably have a good shot making it into:
PCP + PM&R? No issue
Gen Surgery + Ortho: With the Osteo match DOs actually have about the same Application v.s match percent as MDs.
Neuro, ENT, Opto, Uro, Derm? Probably out of most DOs hands.
Psych & Neuro & Path? Will probably take anyone with a pulse admittedly


So really what it is worth most DOs probably have match averages closer to MDs than admitted. So sure, if you want to go into Neuro, ENT, Opto, Uro, and Derm you shouldn't go to DO school. Otherwise you'll probably more than likely make it pending that you work hard enough.
 
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Awesome Sauceome

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not to be snobby... but it basically sounds like you got a 215 and are now disillusioned at your prospects for the future..... this same thing would happen if you were allo, or am I completely off base...?
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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not to be snobby... but it basically sounds like you got a 215 and are now disillusioned at your prospects for the future..... this same thing would happen if you were allo, or am I completely off base...?
It'll probably get you more places. But again, I think many people on the MD side find themselves post- step 1 giving up their dreams of surgical specialties or Derm. But a 215 is probably for an MD more than enough to get into an university program in IM and still subspecialize. For a DO the same cannot likely be said.
 

TheWeeIceMan

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not to be snobby... but it basically sounds like you got a 215 and are now disillusioned at your prospects for the future..... this same thing would happen if you were allo, or am I completely off base...?
I wouldn't be so quick to just disregard what he's saying. There are certainly specialties open to DO students but that doesn't mean it's a totally level playing field right now.
 
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Of course a lot of specialties are doable. When only 3 people match into a specialty in the class, it is doable. I am just heeding warning to some of the premeds that barely squeaked into a DO school who have absolutely no desire to go into primary care. You would be doing yourself a disservice by attending a DO school with the notion that you only want to do surgery. I just think to ease the biased reality of being a DO, you have to keep that open mind for primary care when the rotations begin.
If you barely squeaked into a DO school or MD you would probably have trouble locking down surgery. Just because you are in medical school doesn't suddenly put you on an even playing field with your peers.
Sure your undergrad GPA and MCAT don't really matter anymore but it's not like you will instantaneously become a med school machine and bail the boards.
 

Dreamstoo

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what a phrase, can we just rename OMT this?


I think you have a small point. Probably DOs have more difficulty matching into specialties. That being said a lot of specialties and subspecialties aren't competitive and as a few people on Osteo have said will genuinely take anyone with a pulse.

So I think it's better to examine what DOs cannot probably have a good shot making it into:
PCP + PM&R? No issue
Gen Surgery + Ortho: With the Osteo match DOs actually have about the same Application v.s match percent as MDs.
Neuro, ENT, Opto, Uro, Derm? Probably out of most DOs hands.
Psych & Neuro & Path? Will probably take anyone with a pulse admittedly


So really what it is worth most DOs probably have match averages closer to MDs than admitted. So sure, if you want to go into Neuro, ENT, Opto, Uro, and Derm you shouldn't go to DO school. Otherwise you'll probably more than likely make it pending that you work hard enough.
I actually keep forgetting that AOA orthopedic residencies. I also read the match list of PCOM ortho residents matching into fellowships. They had a few going to Upenn fellowships. One even ended up at a ortho sports at Harvard.
 

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People should be more informed before deciding what school to go to. And why are people so quick to dismiss MCAT performance as a predictor of step one performance? Just because you got into med school you don't instantly become as smart as everyone in your class. Im betting the guys with the 35 MCAT will ON AVERAGE do better on the boards than the guy with the 22 MCAT. And though most hate to admit this, the MCAT has become a lot like an IQ test. It measures your ability to remember LARGE amounts or material WELL . It also test reasoning ability. So since DO school take slightly less academically talented students, they probably do slightly worse on the USMLE.
 

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Can't speak for your school, but when our matriculants are polled year after year right at the start of Year I, their interest is primary care. Other schools report this as well.

In essence, the applicants to my school self-select.

We all know that the specialties are competitive. But I see enough of my grads become "ologists" to make me comfortable with the idea that our grads are where they are because most of them want to be there.


The assumption that most students in DO schools want to go into primary care is FALSE, I repeat, FALSE. When premeds and even OMS1's observe match lists and see mostly Primary Care, they like to reassure themselves it's okay because most of those students wanted to be primary care because it matches the themes of Osteopathy and (continue on about how osteopathy is like the calling for primary care).... No. I am sure premeds here who even interviewed at the DO schools have been asked sometimes by the dean to raise their hand if they were interested in specializing, and I am sure more than half of the people raised their hand. After seeing most of my friends go through their 3rd and 4th years. What we like to call the "DO reality bomb" hit us.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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People should be more informed before deciding what school to go to. And why are people so quick to dismiss MCAT performance as a predictor of step one performance? Just because you got into med school you don't instantly become as smart as everyone in your class. Im betting the guys with the 35 MCAT will ON AVERAGE do better on the boards than the guy with the 22 MCAT. And though most hate to admit this, the MCAT has become a lot like an IQ test. It measures your ability to remember LARGE amounts or material WELL . It also test reasoning ability. So since DO school take slightly less academically talented students, they probably do slightly worse on the USMLE.
The GRE maybe, but the Mcat isn't really similar to an IQ test in any way. It is more similar to the USMLE in that random people from across the country get together, write a test with questions from premed courses and try to create a concise and integrated test. The Mcat's main component is not reasoning but really the amount you have digested and rehearsed ( With the exception of the Verbal, which is most likely at least in some part a reasoning test).
 

DrEnderW

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The national mean for the USMLE is 227 for 2013.

Why should anyone be surprised that scoring below average will make it difficult to land ACGME specialties? That would be a low score for MDs, way below the average for all surgery sub-specialties and others. The equivalent percentile score on the COMLEX would also make it tough to land AOA specialties.

If your an average student, coupled with a below average board score, what do you expect? You wouldn't match derm, ENT, ortho, etc as an MD either.
 

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I have seen my peers dreams smashed when the MD student gets an interview over them with a worse USMLE. It is a huge gamble if you are black and white about what you want to go into with DO schools. Beggars cannot be Choosers.

Now this kinda sucks.
 

Dreamstoo

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The national mean for the USMLE is 227 for 2013.

Why should anyone be surprised that scoring below average will make it difficult to land ACGME specialties? That would be a low score for MDs, way below the average for all surgery sub-specialties and others. The equivalent percentile score on the COMLEX would also make it tough to land AOA specialties.

If your an average student, coupled with a below average board score, what do you expect? You wouldn't match derm, ENT, ortho, etc as an MD either.
+1
 

Awesome Sauceome

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The national mean for the USMLE is 227 for 2013.

Why should anyone be surprised that scoring below average will make it difficult to land ACGME specialties? That would be a low score for MDs, way below the average for all surgery sub-specialties and others. The equivalent percentile score on the COMLEX would also make it tough to land AOA specialties.

If your an average student, coupled with a below average board score, what do you expect? You wouldn't match derm, ENT, ortho, etc as an MD either.
+2
This is more or less what I was getting at
 
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People should be more informed before deciding what school to go to. And why are people so quick to dismiss MCAT performance as a predictor of step one performance? Just because you got into med school you don't instantly become as smart as everyone in your class. Im betting the guys with the 35 MCAT will ON AVERAGE do better on the boards than the guy with the 22 MCAT. And though most hate to admit this, the MCAT has become a lot like an IQ test. It measures your ability to remember LARGE amounts or material WELL . It also test reasoning ability. So since DO school take slightly less academically talented students, they probably do slightly worse on the USMLE.
This is what I was trying to say. The MCAT may not be correlated with a students ability to be a doctor but it is pretty indicative of their ability to test well, IMO.
For people that "squeaked" into medschool this is no time to relax. You really need to overhaul your capabilities if you don't want to just squeak past the USMLE.
Why should someone barely make it into medical school, score below the average on the boards and be awarded with the specialty of their choice? That doesn't make sense and has nothing to do with whether that student is taught by one medical philosophy or the other.
 
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Back 5

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I know I'm going to be a deeply motivated student. I hope that being a DO student doesn't hinder my goals, but I'll cross that bridge once I get there.

My goal is to achieve the highest gpa I can during the first 2 years as well as the highest usmle/comlex scores I could possibly attain.

If I achieve those goals, I'm betting I can get a good residency placement.
 
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IslandStyle808

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The GRE maybe, but the Mcat isn't really similar to an IQ test in any way. It is more similar to the USMLE in that random people from across the country get together, write a test with questions from premed courses and try to create a concise and integrated test. The Mcat's main component is not reasoning but really the amount you have digested and rehearsed ( With the exception of the Verbal, which is most likely at least in some part a reasoning test).
I disagree with this. The MCAT has went from a more subject based exam to one that is extremely critical thinking. The biology section is very strong proof of this. It is not about the amount you have digested, but more your ability to analyze a passage and come to the best conclusion.

I have seen my friend's NBME practice exams for the step I and although there is a good amount of critical thinking involved, it is more bulk memorization. So they are not that similar.
 

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I disagree with this. The MCAT has went from a more subject based exam to one that is extremely critical thinking. The biology section is very strong proof of this. It is not about the amount you have digested, but more your ability to analyze a passage and come to the best conclusion.

I have seen my friend's NBME practice exams for the step I and although there is a good amount of critical thinking involved, it is more bulk memorization. So they are not that similar.
Yea, the usmle and comlex are mostly memorization. They use much different skills than the MCAT.

At any rate, I'd say 30 to 40% of my class wanted primary care from the beginning. Everyone else wanted some sort of speciality. I think most people that deserved to match their speciality of choice did, but, nevertheless, a decent amount of people failed to match.
 
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pattr

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I'm sorry but I don't agree with the OP's post. At least at my school (Touro CA), the majority of people wanted to do primary care from the very beginning. And if you work hard and score at or above average on the USMLE step 1 (~227+) you have a lot of options in terms of subspecialties outside of primary care, eg. gas, EM, gen surg, rads..

This idea of "if you know you don't want to do primary care, don't go DO" does not apply to everyone.

Also, as a side note, even with a below average step 1 you can still match to a decent IM program and beef up your resume during residency and match into a competitive medicine specialty (cards, gi, h/o...). The same can be said about OB/GYN.
 

IslandStyle808

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Yea, the usmle and comlex are mostly memorization. They use much different skills than the MCAT.

At any rate, I'd say 30 to 40% of my class wanted primary care from the beginning. Everyone else wanted some sort of speciality. I think most people that deserved to match their speciality of choice did, but, nevertheless, a decent amount of people failed to match.
I know what you mean. I have noticed that there is on average 4 weeks of study time for the level 1/step 1 for most osteopathic school. I think most allopathic schools have 6 weeks on average. My friend who is a third year now at an MD school had 8 weeks! This is the max I have heard of.

I think the amount of study time does play a factor to some degree. However, I think a lot of medical students will counter my statement by saying it is more about how well you learn the material the first time in class than it is about the amount of time given to study for the boards. Well, there is a lot of truth to that.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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I know what you mean. I have noticed that there is on average 4 weeks of study time for the level 1/step 1 for most osteopathic school. I think most allopathic schools have 6 weeks on average. My friend who is a third year now at an MD school had 8 weeks! This is the max I have heard of.

I think the amount of study time does play a factor to some degree. However, I think a lot of medical students will counter my statement by saying it is more about how well you learn the material the first time in class than it is about the amount of time given to study for the boards. Well, there is a lot of truth to that.
It's more that they were taught USMLE type questions and focused on the material that was 'high' yield.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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I disagree with this. The MCAT has went from a more subject based exam to one that is extremely critical thinking. The biology section is very strong proof of this. It is not about the amount you have digested, but more your ability to analyze a passage and come to the best conclusion.

I have seen my friend's NBME practice exams for the step I and although there is a good amount of critical thinking involved, it is more bulk memorization. So they are not that similar.
Again, I'm not doubting that there is critical thinking in the mcat, as it has plenty of second order questions and multi-dimensional information integration. However the limiting factor in this equation is the amount of material you have covered, not critical thinking capacity to be honest. If you did not study metabolism and got a metabolism question then chances are you will simply lack the intricate understanding of the question to then use your critical thinking capacity to integrate into an answer.

In the end the MCAT is a subject based test that requires a very intimate background in science followed by a capacity to reason. I would argue the in the end the biggest hoop is the acquisition of the background.
 

wjs010

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I get such different responses from DOs I have spoken to. Yes, they said that some fields are pretty much impossible to get as DO but many specialties are doable. I know of three DO cardiologists in my area. I do admit; however, that being a DO orthopedic surgeon is very very rare. The only spine/orthopedic surgeon I know of went to a top 10 MD and graduated at the top of his class. Guy is pretty young and is making bucket loads of money.
You are being misled. You must have not seen the match results for orthopedics for last year's match. If anything, orthopedics IS one of the DO friendly specialties. I'm very glad about that too. There are many specialties that are hard to reach, but NONE are impossible. I know a DO 4th year who got tons of MD neurosurgery interviews. . Still, OP's post is good for a reality check. However, to say "don't go DO if you absolutely don't want family med" is false... Go DO if that's where you could get in or if you like it. Then do your best on board. You don't have to go to an MD residency to specialize. Will it be hard as hell to specialize and go into ACGME res as a DO? Hell yes, but that is just more fire under our asses to get to work. :D
 

ToKingdomCome

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what a phrase, can we just rename OMT this?


I think you have a small point. Probably DOs have more difficulty matching into specialties. That being said a lot of specialties and subspecialties aren't competitive and as a few people on Osteo have said will genuinely take anyone with a pulse.

So I think it's better to examine what DOs cannot probably have a good shot making it into:
PCP + PM&R? No issue
Gen Surgery + Ortho: With the Osteo match DOs actually have about the same Application v.s match percent as MDs.
Neuro, ENT, Opto, Uro, Derm? Probably out of most DOs hands.
Psych & Neuro & Path? Will probably take anyone with a pulse admittedly


So really what it is worth most DOs probably have match averages closer to MDs than admitted. So sure, if you want to go into Neuro, ENT, Opto, Uro, and Derm you shouldn't go to DO school. Otherwise you'll probably more than likely make it pending that you work hard enough.

I agree with what you believe is "out of most DO hands". If you're dead set on pursuing one of those specialities, seriously reconsider DO and beef up your app to apply MD.

With that said EM and anesthesiology are also very doable as a DO as are many other very solid medical specialities.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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I agree with what you believe is "out of most DO hands". If you're dead set on pursuing one of those specialities, seriously reconsider DO and beef up your app to apply MD.

With that said EM and anesthesiology are also very doable as a DO as are many other very solid medical specialities.
I missed those two, those are two highly DO friendly specialties and DOs are decently represented.
 

user3

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not to be snobby... but it basically sounds like you got a 215 and are now disillusioned at your prospects for the future..... this same thing would happen if you were allo, or am I completely off base...?
For an MD student with 211-220 USMLE, here are the match rates for the following specialties (2011 data):

Anesthesiology: 99%
Radiology: 92%
EM: 89%
GS: 79%
ENT: 75%
Rad Onc: 60%
Derm: 56%
Ortho: 56%
Neurosurgery: 54%
Plastic surgery: 18%

The first 3 would be a reach for a DO to match with a 215, currently. The rest would be pretty much impossible for a DO, but rather attainable for an MD (save plastics).

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f466940e4ec38ed51af32994bc6.r6.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
 

DrEnderW

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For an MD student with 211-220 USMLE, here are the match rates for the following specialties (2011 data):

Anesthesiology: 99%
Radiology: 92%
EM: 89%
GS: 79%
ENT: 75%
Rad Onc: 60%
Derm: 56%
Ortho: 56%
Neurosurgery: 54%
Plastic surgery: 18%

The first 3 would be a reach for a DO to match with a 215, currently. The rest would be pretty much impossible for a DO, but rather attainable for an MD (save plastics).

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f466940e4ec38ed51af32994bc6.r6.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
Thanks for posting.

I'd be curious at to what the AOA match rate for GS, ortho, ENT, and NS would be for an equivalent COMLEX score. That ENT rate is shockingly high.
 

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You would be a statistical anomaly to match ACGME ophtho, derm or ENT (and my understanding is plastics as well). This has nothing to do with taking the USMLE, just to do with appearing as an outsider because of letters behind your name. Don't feel bad though the level of competition for these residencies is historically so steep they critic and exploit anything and everything else too, only the top remain, and its not solely based on board scores.

Most other specialties are within reach should you impressive with boards, research, audition rotations, etc
 

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You would be a statistical anomaly to match ACGME ophtho, derm or ENT (and my understanding is plastics as well). This has nothing to do with taking the USMLE, just to do with appearing as an outsider because of letters behind your name. Don't feel bad though the level of competition for these residencies is historically so steep they critic and exploit anything and everything else too, only the top remain, and its not solely based on board scores.

Most other specialties are within reach should you impressive with boards, research, audition rotations, etc
that is the issue. An MD student with 210s (low avg board score) is competitive for most specialties and does not have to be "impressive" to match in them. It is a huge weight off your shoulder to be an MD student and not have so much pressure to ace your boards and have published research and such. But I guess that is the burden you accept when you become a DO student and want to match ACGME
 

Lost Vagus

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There is descrimination against DO's.... Not sure what the point of this thread is. Everyone knows it's generally harder to match into a competitive residency as a DO compared to md. This is old news
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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that is the issue. An MD student with 210s (low avg board score) is competitive for most specialties and does not have to be "impressive" to match in them. It is a huge weight off your shoulder to be an MD student and not have so much pressure to ace your boards and have published research and such. But I guess that is the burden you accept when you become a DO student and want to match ACGME
I think there may be many issues in that reasoning however. Remember it is a self-selected population and for many MD applicants they probably realize that with a 210 they'll have a low shot for Ortho. That being said they probably can overcome this through potentially rotating frequently in ortho or through ortho research or through getting LORs from the school's Ortho Physician.
Point being just because they have a 210 doesn't really mean they will luck out. Regardless however, the same applies probably for AOA residencies. Audition enough and you may get in with a 480.
 

Elevencents

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You are being misled. You must have not seen the match results for orthopedics for last year's match. If anything, orthopedics IS one of the DO friendly specialties. I'm very glad about that too. There are many specialties that are hard to reach, but NONE are impossible. I know a DO 4th year who got tons of MD neurosurgery interviews. . Still, OP's post is good for a reality check. However, to say "don't go DO if you absolutely don't want family med" is false... Go DO if that's where you could get in or if you like it. Then do your best on board. You don't have to go to an MD residency to specialize. Will it be hard as hell to specialize and go into ACGME res as a DO? Hell yes, but that is just more fire under our asses to get to work. :D
Something that is "DO friendly" is stating that it is an attainable specialty to match AGCME as a DO. Which orthopedics is certainly not. Even AOA, ortho is one of the three hardest specialities to match (off the top of my head; from the GME report).
 

The_Bird

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I don't know his numbers, but for what its worth the only neurosurgeon in my area is a DO.
 

TopTomato

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Let's face it, if you BARELY got into a DO school, what the heck makes you think you would have gotten into an MD?? and not to mention not only MD but also being top of your class at that MD school. Seriously I think the student who knows they barely got into a DO school knows that going into an extremely competitive residency is most likely out of reach. I'm not too sure what's going on with all the DO self hate lately but I happen to work in a hospital with a lot of DOs. We have DO's in cardiology, anesthesiology, emergency med, heck even 3 out of 4 of the ENT doctors that my hospital uses are DO. I mean at the end of the day even if you "only" match FM you're still a physician. Some of you guys on SDN make that sound like you're handing out french fries at McDonalds.
 

BestDoctorEver

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For an MD student with 211-220 USMLE, here are the match rates for the following specialties (2011 data):

Anesthesiology: 99%
Radiology: 92%
EM: 89%
GS: 79%
ENT: 75%
Rad Onc: 60%
Derm: 56%
Ortho: 56%
Neurosurgery: 54%
Plastic surgery: 18%

The first 3 would be a reach for a DO to match with a 215, currently. The rest would be pretty much impossible for a DO, but rather attainable for an MD (save plastics).

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f466940e4ec38ed51af32994bc6.r6.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
This is unbelievable! I thought with score like these (211-220), even MD applicants can only match into primary care specialties such as FM, IM, psych, Peds, and PM&R... I am shocked looking at these %. I was thinking you need 230+ to be able match Anesthesiology, Radiology, GS, EM. 240+ for Ortho, Rad Onco and 250+ for the others. These numbers (%) are SHOCKING! The MD degree even from a low tier school can go a long way I guess.
 

BestDoctorEver

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Let's face it, if you BARELY got into a DO school, what the heck makes you think you would have gotten into an MD?? and not to mention not only MD but also being top of your class at that MD school. Seriously I think the student who knows they barely got into a DO school knows that going into an extremely competitive residency is most likely out of reach. I'm not too sure what's going on with all the DO self hate lately but I happen to work in a hospital with a lot of DOs. We have DO's in cardiology, anesthesiology, emergency med, heck even 3 out of 4 of the ENT doctors that my hospital uses are DO. I mean at the end of the day even if you "only" match FM you're still a physician. Some of you guys on SDN make that sound like you're handing out french fries at McDonalds.
Lol....
 

wjs010

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This is unbelievable! I thought with score like these (211-220), even MD applicants can only match into primary care specialties such as FM, IM, psych, Peds, and PM&R... I am shocked looking at these %. I was thinking you need 230+ to be able match Anesthesiology, Radiology, GS, EM. 240+ for Ortho, Rad Onco and 250+ for the others. These numbers (%) are SHOCKING! The MD degree even from a low tier school can go a long way I guess.
Nope. While usmle/comlex are the most important for getting into residency, there are other factors: research and EC's. Research can take you a long way, although I've seen that with high boards, it is essentially unnecessary.
 
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This is unbelievable! I thought with score like these (211-220), even MD applicants can only match into primary care specialties such as FM, IM, psych, Peds, and PM&R... I am shocked looking at these %. I was thinking you need 230+ to be able match Anesthesiology, Radiology, GS, EM. 240+ for Ortho, Rad Onco and 250+ for the others. These numbers (%) are SHOCKING! The MD degree even from a low tier school can go a long way I guess.
Well a couple things:
1) The times they are a changin'. What were once ultra competitive residencies aren't nearly as competitive as they used to be. Lifestyles and compensation are in constant flux and what seemed as the holy grail are no longer so wonderful.

2) Not all residencies are created equal. Do you think that the radiology program that the low tier applicant is matching is in a big city, academic setting or has great patient load opportunities? I would guess that unless they have a lot of connections and publications it's unlikely.
 
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Let's face it, if you BARELY got into a DO school, what the heck makes you think you would have gotten into an MD?? and not to mention not only MD but also being top of your class at that MD school. Seriously I think the student who knows they barely got into a DO school knows that going into an extremely competitive residency is most likely out of reach. I'm not too sure what's going on with all the DO self hate lately but I happen to work in a hospital with a lot of DOs. We have DO's in cardiology, anesthesiology, emergency med, heck even 3 out of 4 of the ENT doctors that my hospital uses are DO. I mean at the end of the day even if you "only" match FM you're still a physician. Some of you guys on SDN make that sound like you're handing out french fries at McDonalds.
This. You don't see crappy MD students matching these specialties either. Some people with good stats may have chosen to go to a DO school for a variety of reasons and these are often the ones who go on to match great residencies. Why? Because they are and have always been great candidates. Cream will always rise to the top.

As for your second point, I gotta give it a giant "+1". FM is a great career with a fantastic lifestyle. People around here act as if someone chooses FM because they couldn't cut it in a specialty and that other doctors don't consider them "real doctors". This couldn't be further from the truth. Some brilliant minds go into FM/IM etc and are perfectly happy about their choice and are very respected by other physicians.

...
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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This. You don't see crappy MD students matching these specialties either. Some people with good stats may have chosen to go to a DO school for a variety of reasons and these are often the ones who go on to match great residencies. Why? Because they are and have always been great candidates. Cream will always rise to the top.

As for your second point, I gotta give it a giant "+1". FM is a great career with a fantastic lifestyle. People around here act as if someone chooses FM because they couldn't cut it in a specialty and that other doctors don't consider them "real doctors". This couldn't be further from the truth. Some brilliant minds go into FM/IM etc and are perfectly happy about their choice and are very respected by other physicians.

...
I've said it before. On SDN if you haven't been divorced 4 1/2 times, matched neurodermoorthographic surgery, or have 4 academic positions each with a team of grad students bending over to publish then you have done something wrong.
 

wjs010

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I've said it before. On SDN if you haven't been divorced 4 1/2 times, matched neurodermoorthographic surgery, or have 4 academic positions each with a team of grad students bending over to publish then you have done something wrong.
Hahaha. This is so true
 

notbobtrustme

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FYI, getting an average score on the USMLE is hard. You can't just say "oh just do above average". Most everyone is trying to do above average.

However, doing below average for MD students is less of a death blow than it is for DO students, as someone else already pointed out.
 
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mcloaf

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This is unbelievable! I thought with score like these (211-220), even MD applicants can only match into primary care specialties such as FM, IM, psych, Peds, and PM&R... I am shocked looking at these %. I was thinking you need 230+ to be able match Anesthesiology, Radiology, GS, EM. 240+ for Ortho, Rad Onco and 250+ for the others. These numbers (%) are SHOCKING! The MD degree even from a low tier school can go a long way I guess.
These data don't tell the whole story though, as I'd expect a lot of these people are in pretty self-selecting groups. How many of those people matching derm with a 210 do you think are average applicants? Most likely they had extensive research and very strong connections; if they didn't they wouldn't have applied to derm in the first place.

FYI, getting an average score on the USMLE is hard. You can't just say "oh just do above average". Most everyone is trying to do above average.

However, doing below average for MD students is less of a death blow than it is for DO students, as someone else already pointed out.
Yes, medical school is where all premeds become above average right? ;)
 

Back 5

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I was under the impression that if you were a good student, right around the 3.0+ in school and studied hard for the boards, that'd you'd do relatively well?

I plan on studying my tail off for boards.
 

notbobtrustme

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I was under the impression that if you were a good student, right around the 3.0+ in school and studied hard for the boards, that'd you'd do relatively well?

I plan on studying my tail off for boards.
Medical school is full of people who are all that and more; everyone is studying their balls off for the boards and roughly 40% will do average to below average on their boards.

You aren't competing with those who didn't get into medical school (as with the MCAT). You're competing with kids who go to Stanford, Johns Hopkins and Yale, along with all the other MD schools and all the other DO schools. That's a much more rigorous group of students than pre-meds.

Like I said, doing average on the USMLE is a tremendous feat.