Do DO's make as much money as MD's?

[ysk1]

The title says it all.
Also, what's the factor that drives most people to pursue MD rather than DO?

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[AggieSean]

you know that beer commercial?

dude

 

[Perrotfish]

This is actually a pretty reasonable MD vs. DO question. Are DOs taking a pay cut compared to MDs, or does everyone who completes the same residency average the same starting salary?

Also, what's the factor that drives most people to pursue MD rather than DO?

This? Not so reasonable.

 

[Phoenix.]

There are many, many threads on this topic. In particular, please keep this in mind during any MD vs. DO discussion:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133066

In addition, here is a great FAQ from the pre-osteo forum that will answer your questions:

MD vs DO
Physicians are hired as tradesman for the job of physician or surgeon, the degree qualifies you for the job but isn't the job itself. Having said that, there is no discrepancy in salary between and MD and a DO, however it is debatable whether DOs or MDs make more money when self employed. There are way too many variable involved, such as location, local opinions, and individual performance to assess this. Here is a sample of discussions and opinions about this question:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=211261
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=202236
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=188100
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=184459
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=174042

 

[Law2Doc]

This is actually a pretty reasonable MD vs. DO question. Are DOs taking a pay cut compared to MDs, or does everyone who completes the same residency average the same starting salary?

Not exactly a reasonable question because it assumes that the degree is what is correlated with the ultimate job, and it isn't. Where you are coming from after that is. In medicine (unlike other degree programs where pedigree looms larger) you are only as good as the last place you've been. Meaning that if you are coming out of XYZ residency, you are that guy from XYZ, not from MD or DO SOM. So no, a graduate of XYZ residency program is going to earn in the same range as other graduates of XYZ residency program. The only real issue about med school isn't about earnings but whether it gets you into a choice residency (which all pay about the same lousy salary, give or take). The residency is your key to the private practice world. So Bob DO and Bill MD who are both "that IM resident guy from General Hospital" are both going to earn the same. Nobody cares about the degree at that point, they care about the residency.

So do allo grads go into specialty residencies in greater percentages? Currently yes. Do specialties earn more than primary care post-residency? Yes. So on average is a graduate of a school that puts more people into primary care than into specialties is going to earn less? Sure. Nothing magical about the degree, and folks in the same specialty are paid by region, not degree (ignoring the solo practioner example raised in the above post). There are folks who end up in specialties from all med schools. The average is dictated by what percentage ends up in primary care.

This topic has been done to death, and the answers can be found a thousand times on SDN.

 

[Lokhtar]

Does your residency really matter all that much in private practice? I thought it mattered more in the academic world?

 

[MossPoh]

It matters in that there are mediocre residencies out there where you won't learn as much and can become a less effective doctor. That being said, one usually has the capability to gain this knowledge if they really try. You can overcome bad training. Not all do overcome it, but you can. You'll meet a fair number of guys(and gals) that are content with finishing up a mediocre residency, rarely read journals, and sleepwalk through CME. That doesn't even mean they'll make less though. It can just mean that they are not giving their patients the best treatment possible...and maybe making less.

Region, speciality, and hours worked reallllly appear to be the be the biggest indicators of salary. (All docs are pretty business ******ed, so I am assuming that a person that works less hours run just as an inefficient practice as one that works more hours) Region in particular is a huge determinant. Desperation is a smelly cologne (and perfume). They offer some HUGE money for some pretty crap areas to practice, for whatever reason. They'll pay some good money for small/moderate sized southern and midwest towns as well. To put things in perspective. We lived in south florida for a long time. My dad was on staff with jackson memorial and was in a very busy radiology practice. He made roughly 180k there (could spike to 200k...this was in the 70s/80s so it was still pretty darn good) . When we moved to a small midwest town, my dad's income jumped to about 450k with a cost of living about half of what it was in south florida. It was quite a change for him coming from only big cities, but considered one of his best career moves ever. So, long story short, DO/MD make the same. In fact, I know a few DOs that have higher incomes than their MD counterparts.

 

[digitlnoize]

Most hospitals that I have ever heard of have the same pay code for MD's and DO's. In fact, it is illegal for them to make a distinction. So, at Hospital X, a MD cardiologist and a DO cardiologist will make the same, all other things being equal (seniority, output, etc).

 

[VoiceofReason]

Since most competitive and high paying specialties are overwhelmingly populated by MDs, I'm tempted to say that the MD average salary across all specialties is higher than the average DO salary across all specialties.

Flame on.

 

[Lokhtar]

Since most competitive and high paying specialties are overwhelmingly populated by MDs, I'm tempted to say that the MD average salary across all specialties is higher than the average DO salary across all specialties.

Flame on.

This is obviously true. Some DO schools graduate 70+% of their students into primary care, and thus, on average, they will make less than people who go into plastic surgery. I think the OP was asking if there is a difference between a DO FP vs MD FP, or DO NS vs MD NS.

 

[VoiceofReason]

This is obviously true. Some DO schools graduate 70+% of their students into primary care, and thus, on average, they will make less than people who go into plastic surgery. I think the OP was asking if there is a difference between a DO FP vs MD FP, or DO NS vs MD NS.

Thats what I think he meant as well. I was just trying to answer the question in the most inflammatory way I could in short time. Hence the "flame on." 😛

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

Since most competitive and high paying specialties are overwhelmingly populated by MDs, I'm tempted to say that the MD average salary across all specialties is higher than the average DO salary across all specialties.

Flame on.

I was going to say the same thing, but I've also noticed DO's tend to work in less "doctor dense" areas of the country. So there are a lot of DO's out there working in BumbleFu**, MIddle of Nowhere who can pull 300,000 as the only FP or surgeon in the area.

 

[njbmd]

The title says it all.
Also, what's the factor that drives most people to pursue MD rather than DO?

This is actually a pretty reasonable MD vs. DO question. Are DOs taking a pay cut compared to MDs, or does everyone who completes the same residency average the same starting salary?
This? Not so reasonable.

In the United States, physicians may have the DO or MD degree. If two physicians are doing the same job with roughly the same experience, they will have comparable salaries. When I was growing up in Virginia, my father's orthopedic surgeon was a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (did residency at Georgetown) and believe me, he earned far more than my father (allopathic physician) who was a Cardiologist (residency at SUNY).

Your eventual salary is not determined by your residency but by your specialty and where you are located. Folks in academic practice tend to make less than those who are in private practice. Folks who enter primary care tend to make less than those who enter surgical specialties. Osteopathic physicians are eligible to enter all specialties and much the same as allopathic physicians, will enter specialty based on performance in medical school and residency match.

If you want to become a physician in this country you enter either allopathic or osteopathic medical school. Once you complete medical school and residency, how much you can earn is up to you and not the initials behind your name.

 

[scrubswannabe]

What I believe everyone here is talking about is a DO that takes the USMLE and goes through with the MD match and matches, obtaining an MD residency. This isn't that easy and is much easier coming out of an MD school. Maybe we should ask if graduates of MD residencies or graduates of DO residencies make more money since most DO students match into DO programs and MD students match into MD programs.

 

[JaggerPlate]

OP, without getting too into it (because it could go down in flames), an MD and a DO will get paid exactly the same in the same position (--> there is no distinction between the degree as far as salary goes). Of course, as Law2Doc said there are a ton of different factors that can influence salary as a whole but an MD and a DO in an identical FP residency (for example) would be paid the same.

Your second question ... In reality (this one will probably cause explosion) there is no reason to just get an MD over a DO. They are legally identical degrees in the US. HOWEVER ... MDs do have better international practice rights (not to mention better known internationally), and a lot of people do worry about the 'stigma' attached to it, or having a DO behind their name instead of an MD. However, everyone who I have spoken to on this board who was an attending or resident has said that in the real world people don't care, and everyone is too busy to fuss over the letters behind your name. Plus, take into consideration that by 2019, 20% of the practicing physicians in the US will be DOs, so informed knowledge about them should continue to become clearer.

 

[Maxprime]

Too tough to tell - I assume there too many human factors involved in pay after residency. The only way to compare would be same specialty at same hospital with same amount of experience, even then there are too many variables and too small of a sample size.

Also, do remember the scale here. If DO's or MD's make $2k on average less per year out of $200k, isn't a 1% difference in salary worth learning the type of medicine you believe in?

 

[Shaidr]

Scooby Doo can do-do, but Jimmy Carter is smarter.

 

[J1515]

What I believe everyone here is talking about is a DO that takes the USMLE and goes through with the MD match and matches, obtaining an MD residency. This isn't that easy and is much easier coming out of an MD school. Maybe we should ask if graduates of MD residencies or graduates of DO residencies make more money since most DO students match into DO programs and MD students match into MD programs.

Can I see proof of the bolded statement above? Have fun searching. I think you'll see the numbers aren't what you thought they'd be.

An MD cardiologist circles the same billing code as a DO cardiologist, regardless of what school or residency (DO or MD) they graduated from. An MD of a certain specialty gets paid exactly the same as a DO of that same specialty.

 

[endocardium]

*sigh* Why is it always this time of year that we get questions like this?

Anyway, this is rediculous. OP, do some research... If allopathic medical school is where you want to go, but aren't getting any luck this application cycle, then take some time off, make some changes in your application, improve yourself, and reapply. Sheesh. Otherwise, if I misread your intentions, my apologies, please read the FAQ's in the pre-osteo forum, or do a search. Your question has been answered many times, in many ways... Nevertheless, there are some good answers provided to you in this thread.

 

[scrubswannabe]

Can I see proof of the bolded statement above? Have fun searching. I think you'll see the numbers aren't what you thought they'd be.

An MD cardiologist circles the same billing code as a DO cardiologist, regardless of what school or residency (DO or MD) they graduated from. An MD of a certain specialty gets paid exactly the same as a DO of that same specialty.

oh well my fault, i guess that was me being ignorant
i just assumed that only a minority of students that enter DO schools decide to take the USMLEs and apply to MD residencies and that the majority took only the COMLEX

 

[scowdeva]

oh well my fault, i guess that was me being ignorant
i just assumed that only a minority of students that enter DO schools decide to take the USMLEs and apply to MD residencies and that the majority took only the COMLEX

I can only make an assumption about the people I know who have gone DO so here goes my anecdote: a good number do take both tests. I went to undergrad at MSU, and MSUCOM is one of the most highly respected schools out there for primary care. Not that rankings are the be-all-end-all, but it is #5 out of ALL schools. Just some food for thought.

DOs and MDs are paid exactly the same for the same job. Yes, there are people who prefer an MD. But, just as a newsflash from someone who lives in an area that is VERY DO heavy, there are a good number of people who will only see a DO. This is very area-specific, however, so if you wanted to remain in an area with no other DOs except yourself, you may get more questions.

Either way, this is truly a premed debate. I think only the die-hard "MDs are far, far superior" people will actually ever even have a thought about this in the future. I know that I could care less if I have DO or MD after my name. I am far more concerned with going to a school that I feel will give me the best education that I can get.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I'd agree that its certainly easier to match into the higher paying specialties as MD.

 

[Snake Doctor]

Either way, this is truly a premed debate. I think only the die-hard "MDs are far, far superior" people will actually ever even have a thought about this in the future. I know that I could care less if I have DO or MD after my name.

Very well put! 👍

 

[patrickd223]

Well seeing as DO's prescribe herbs and are only allowed to do prescriptions under the supervision of an MD, I could see how they get paid less..

I kid, I kid. 😀

 

[Dr JPH]

DOs can actually get paid more because they can add on qualifier billing codes (98925 - 98929) for osteopathic manual therapy. Each of these codes bills the insurance for additional services rendered with very little additional time spent with the patient (as little as 2 minutes). With some premium insurances and Medicare, this can mean anywhere from $35 to $98 more per patient.

Not bad for 2 minutes of additional treatment time.

And they thought I went to a DO school because of location.

 

[TheRealMD]

Differences in pay do not come from the degree itself but the residency, fellowship, and job you get afterwards. Having an MD vs. a DO will probably affect your residency, but its not the DO degree itself that gets a physician paid more or less.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

DO's work on a volunteer basis only, but are allowed to keep a tip jar in the window at their office. This can be pretty lucrative, and its all off the books.

 

[Salsa45]

I searched and couldn't find the answer. I know that certain specialties are easier than others to match into as a MD than a DO (ie derm) but what is a general guideline to the ones which are harder and which one's relatively the same as a DO?

 

[TexasTriathlete]

There is no guideline. It comes down to each individual program.

 

[Dr JPH]

There is no guideline. It comes down to each individual program.

👍

 

[flaahless]

you know that beer commercial?

dude

HAHAHA

I love that commercial! 👍

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I searched and couldn't find the answer. I know that certain specialties are easier than others to match into as a MD than a DO (ie derm) but what is a general guideline to the ones which are harder and which one's relatively the same as a DO?

Yes of course, don't let these overly optimistic DO and pre DO's fool you. Just check the dermatology forum.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I've seen a dermatologist here in Austin a few times. As much time as I spend in the sun, I am fairly conscious about avoiding cancer. I found out he was a DO when I started talking about med school. His practice is one of the most successful in town.

 

[Lokhtar]

Yes of course, don't let these overly optimistic DO and pre DO's fool you. Just check the dermatology forum.

There are about a hundred spots for dermatology that are for DOs only. There are plenty of DO dermatologists. There are four at my local hospital alone.

 

[VoiceofReason]

This thread is getting off topic, but if your interest is in one of the really competitive allopathic residencies then you want to go to the most prestigious school you can. This will afford you a residency application with a small but not insignificant advantage. If you're playing the game correctly you would prefer to go to a top tier MD program -- failing that, any other MD program -- and failing that, a top DO program -- and lastly, all the other DO programs.

This is just playing the game smartly, you want all the advantages you can get. That said, DO's can still get these residencies, just don't have any illusions about your disadvantages if you go the DO route or the non-top-tier MD route.

Work hard no matter where you go and you'll realize your potential.

 

[Beau Geste]

I can't believe the mods let this thread get to 30+ posts, especially when there is supposed to be one thread to merge all the MD vs. DO topics in pre-DO and there should apparently be one in pre-allo if there isn't one already.

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

 

[Tamburlaine]

I'm strattling the MD/DO fence myself. I'll offer a few observations from my altogether unhealthy, obessive-compulsive Web search--and what hard, oak tree-like data the search turned up🙂

Certain patterns are simply undeniable in the Web pages featuring the backgrounds and pics of residents at "the nation's finest" academic centers--this is not to say, mind you, that such centers are the only places to get rigorous, first-rate training. First, even when considering that there are, in comparison to MD's, fewer DO's in existence, it is simply a statistical rarity to find DO's at these "elite" centers. (I do think this is silly and will eventually give a fuller opinion, but at this point I'm just pointing out patterns.) DO's do, however, seem to be increasingly populous in primary care residencies at these centers, especially in family/community medicine as they rightfully should be. DO heritage is strongly infused with this form of health care and there's no way to make a case against DO community/medicine training. It's the true DO specialty, stock-in-trade; it's what their heritage focuses on most of all.

The big, elite MD surgery crowd, and MD surgical residencies, do seem to keep DO's out. And undoubtedly, this is due to big-headed, pompous, irrational, and unjust discrimination--why in heavens would you generalize about people based solely on the one part of their medical resume that says the least about who they are? I challenge skeptical readers to find more than rarest exception to this and to post the results. Elite surgical centers seem to do the most to make it hard on DO's, a shame.

The last thing I'll point out is that what you also notice at the discussed centers is that all hierarchical "levels"--types is a much better word, I think...--are represented, including, strangely enough, foreign schools. Go to Hopkins's surgery programs, you'll see graduates of "big" northeast private schools; DC schools; all the nation's publics; your Drexels and what-have-you's; and Chinese, Southeast Asian, and European medical schools. I fully believe that it doesn't matter in the least where you go to medical school as long as you have the "magical" suffix (MD). You can get something as elusive as Hopkin's or Mayo neurosurgery from any MD school, period. This is probably because they pull people who have done stellar rotations with them and have, in person, proved themselves to be hard workers. If you're from Harvard or whatever and you go and expect people to hand you crap, they'll easily pass on you for someone with a good attitude. Why not? Who wants to deal with a prima donna?

Now, all that said, you don't need these big-headed centers to be a great doctor, there are plenty of publics, and some privates, and hospitals that appear to discriminate far less. And if you're a DO who decides a certain residency is for you, rotate there and show them you're "A" material, and destroy the boards. You'll be fine. You might not convince the enlightened SDN crowd of anything, but you'll be exactly the doctor you want to be, and no one's flapping mouth could ever change that. Or, yeah...

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

I hate people

 

[Dr JPH]

Yes of course, don't let these overly optimistic DO and pre DO's fool you. Just check the dermatology forum.

Absolutely.

Because as an MD student who has yet to go through the match YOU are the person to listen to.