DO EM residencies really that bad?

[bevans]

2nd year DO student here. I'm starting to get worried about matching EM because of the big increase in competitiveness lately. When I was first applying to med schools EM residencies were sooo easy. Or at least that was what my undergrad advisor said. Anyway, my grades suck and I'm not particularly good at taking tests, but I hear that osteo EM residencies "look past your grades." (Thank goodness!) EM is about the only thing I think I'd ever like to do.

But my question is -- exactly how bad are DO residency programs? Some people here say that even the very worst MD residency is better than even the best DO spot. I've tried to figure it out from scutwork.com, but that doesn't seem to be very helpful.

Any info on this would be absolutely great!

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[southerndoc]

EM has been a competitive specialty for about 5 years now. As a 2nd year student, when you were applying, EM was competitive. Your advisor told you wrong.

 

[bevans]

Great. That figures. I shouldn't have listened to her (undergrad advisor) about a lot of things...

Someone earlier mentioned that a lot of residencies are "cyclical" (sp?). Does that mean there's a chance that EM won't be competitive when I get around to applying? How long are these cycles?

Also, what are some good books to read to understand this whole residency business?

 

[southerndoc]

Someone earlier mentioned that a lot of residencies are "cyclical" (sp?). Does that mean there's a chance that EM won't be competitive when I get around to applying? How long are these cycles?

A long time ago a lot of EM residencies didn't fill. Who knows if we will ever see those times again, but it is possible. Things do occur in cycles. It's anyone's guess if EM will remain competitive in 10 years, but it is likely to remain competitive throughout the time that you apply.

Even as competitive as it is, there are still unfilled positions. It's not like you either match or die.

 

[toxic-megacolon]

Also, what are some good books to read to understand this whole residency business?

Iserson's "Getting into a Residency" is the gold standard.

 

[drdrtoledo]

Iserson's "Getting into a Residency" is the gold standard.

I agree. Just be cautioned that he tends to be very "safe". In other words, he tells you to apply/interview at more places than others would. I pretty much followed his advice and feel I over did it... but for what it's worth... I matched. As a DO, I find his book especially good.

As for DO residencies... I cannot sit here and bash DO EM programs. It's hard to do so when I've not seen them all and have run into very few grads. A recurring theme seems to be that DO programs are not nearly as structured in terms of didactics/research. Also education seems to be very self driven with less attending involvement. Again this is a theme I have picked up on.. you can run into this in allopathic programs too. It is very hard to generalize though. Just check a few out and see what you think. I chose allopathic because I rotated at one and it blew away the DO ones I saw. I like structure.

 

[BKN]

A long time ago a lot of EM residencies didn't fill. Who knows if we will ever see those times again, but it is possible. Things do occur in cycles. It's anyone's guess if EM will remain competitive in 10 years, but it is likely to remain competitive throughout the time that you apply.

Even as competitive as it is, there are still unfilled positions. It's not like you either match or die.

Honestly, the last time EM was not competitive was when it wasn't a specialty (1978). We had so few slots available prior to the mid 90s that there were three applicants for every postion. The number of programs expanded greatly in the 90s, so that there has been equipoise between the numbe of american grads and the number of slots for the last 10 years. I expect the situation to be static for several more years.

 

[OSUdoc08]

2nd year DO student here. I'm starting to get worried about matching EM because of the big increase in competitiveness lately. When I was first applying to med schools EM residencies were sooo easy. Or at least that was what my undergrad advisor said. Anyway, my grades suck and I'm not particularly good at taking tests, but I hear that osteo EM residencies "look past your grades." (Thank goodness!) EM is about the only thing I think I'd ever like to do.

But my question is -- exactly how bad are DO residency programs? Some people here say that even the very worst MD residency is better than even the best DO spot. I've tried to figure it out from scutwork.com, but that doesn't seem to be very helpful.

Any info on this would be absolutely great!

From my experience with EM residencies in my area, I have found that there are AOA (DO) programs that are MUCH better than ACGME (MD) programs. I have also found some awful AOA programs that are worse than any ACGME program.

You can make a blanket generalization for all programs, as they are just too variable.

 

[bevans]

From my experience with EM residencies in my area, I have found that there are AOA (DO) programs that are MUCH better than ACGME (MD) programs. I have also found some awful AOA programs that are worse than any ACGME program.

You can make a blanket generalization for all programs, as they are just too variable.

Really? That's good to hear. I assume you're referring to Oklahoma? Scutwork.com indicated the DO program in Tulsa was pretty bad.

Hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but your sig indicates you're an MS-II like me. How much "experience" with all these EM residencies could you possibly have? Did you work as a nurse or EMT or something before med school. 'cause so far (and I'm a 2yr also), I've seen the inside of exactly one ER.

 

[bevans]

Iserson's "Getting into a Residency" is the gold standard.

Thanks!

 

[deleted52758]

Really? That's good to hear. I assume you're referring to Oklahoma? Scutwork.com indicated the DO program in Tulsa was pretty bad.

Hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but your sig indicates you're an MS-II like me. How much "experience" with all these EM residencies could you possibly have? Did you work as a nurse or EMT or something before med school. 'cause so far (and I'm a 2yr also), I've seen the inside of exactly one ER.

scutwork by no means is the end all of what is determined a good residency... it only takes one bitter individual, who may have a right or may just be bitter to write one bad evaluation. you should take everything you read on scutwork, and on this forum with a grain of salt. nothing is the gospel.

from my limited experience of the one DO residency in chicago, it seems like a decent program, with lots of residents, but they rotate through 8 different hospitals or something like that, and it's a lot of driving. and from what i've heard from their residents, it's not as competitve as an allopathic chicago EM residency.

 

[A_Dull_Boy]

DO programs vary just like ACGME programs vary. But a couple of things to keep in mind:
-For what it's worth, RRC's are supposed to ensure that all programs meets minimum standards.
-A program may look great on paper but not be at all what you are looking for. Go to the program that is best for you.
-Don't think for a moment that a DO EM residency will be an easy bet. You will still have to work for it. By and large, the people I've known that matched in EM (DO or MD programs) were relatively competitive applicants from both pools.

 

[drdrtoledo]

Several DO programs go unfilled every year. This past year 32/125 positions went unfilled. That's 25%. And I've heard of some major low scores getting in. If you are not fixated on a location, you WILL get in DO EM somewhere.

PS... DO programs are all 4 years . Keep that in mind.

 

[DOnut]

There are some truly excellent Osteopathic EM programs out there. To name a few, St. Barnabas in the Bronx, Einstein Philly, Leigh High Valley. I also know that there are a few good ones in Chicago and Michigan as well.

I matched allo, but that's because there is no osteopathic couples match. My wife went allo peds, so I went allo EM. I did rotate through St. Barnabas and interviewed at Einstein in Philly which is dual accredited. Both were excellent programs and the graduates from these programs are outstanding EM physicians.

Now there are a few smaller osteopathic EM programs out there, but if you are looking for large urban level 1 trauma centers with good osteopathic EM programs, you CAN find them.

I definitely would not count them out.

Good Luck!!

DOnut

 

[bevans]

Several DO programs go unfilled every year. This past year 32/125 positions went unfilled. That's 25%. And I've heard of some major low scores getting in. If you are not fixated on a location, you WILL get in DO EM somewhere.

PS... DO programs are all 4 years . Keep that in mind.

Awesome! That's great to hear. Wow, a full quarter of the positions don't even fill?! Maybe my undergrad advisor was at least right that going to a DO school won't hurt me.

 

[DrMom]

Really? That's good to hear. I assume you're referring to Oklahoma? Scutwork.com indicated the DO program in Tulsa was pretty bad.

That scutwork eval you refer to is nearly 4 years old.

I've spent a ton of time at the Tulsa program over the past 3 years (and matched there) and the eval doesn't fit what I've seen. Residents definitely get intubations, codes, etc. Also, the program has scheduled didactics 2 mornings/week. Certainly it isn't a huge academic program, but it is definitely a competent one that has decent volume and good pathology.

 

[bevans]

That scutwork eval you refer to is nearly 4 years old.

I've spent a ton of time at the Tulsa program over the past 3 years (and matched there) and the eval doesn't fit what I've seen. Residents definitely get intubations, codes, etc. Also, the program has scheduled didactics 2 mornings/week. Certainly it isn't a huge academic program, but it is definitely a competent one that has decent volume and good pathology.

Well that's a relief, to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. Did you rotate through any MD ED's? If so, how did it compare to that? Because I'm afraid that a lot of DO students are going to say it was just fine, but then again, they probably don't know jack about what a real ED is supposed to look like.

Another Q: Is going to a DO EM residency going to hold me back from anything (jobs?); or given the fact that I have sucky grades is it pretty much my only (and therefore best) option?

 

[DrMom]

I rotated at one MD program. It was quite comparable, but they got more traumas. That said, the EM residents only got to manage airway for traumas.

Am I saying that my program is comparable to a really big-name MD program? Definitely not, but it still graduates well-trained EM physicians every year.

 

[ElZorro]

This is my incredibly naive and inexperienced take on this issue- you are already a DO (as am I), which as you are no doubt beginning to recognize makes you different in some very good ways, but also some very bad ways; namely that you are starting out at a disadvantage in residency application through the ACGME match. Some will probably debate this, but it is a fact. You are looked at as a lower species of medical student by some, if not most ACGME programs. In order to put yourself on par with the MD students you first have to prove yourself by scoring well on their standardized tests (this is a generalization that applies to alot of ACGME programs, but not all). Essentially, you are guitly till proven innocent as a DO. I do not want to do the same thing with my career as I did in medical school. In other words, I don't want to go to a DO program, whether it is a great program or not, and then go on job interviews and get sideways glances and doubts about my training because I attained my training at an osteopathic program. Lets face it, osteopathic programs have a bad rap, which whether deserved or not will be associated with your own training if you do an osteopathic residency. Sadly, I have learned that medicine has little room for non-traditional people, even in a field (EM) that commonly attracts students that are non-conformists.

Note- this is my paranoid take. It is not an expert opinion and is only the result of my experince as an osteopathic medical student. I have just become tired of the stigma that some narrow minded people have laid upon me, and quite frankly don't have the interest in continuing to fight an uphill battle.

 

[bevans]

I rotated at one MD program. It was quite comparable, but they got more traumas. That said, the EM residents only got to manage airway for traumas.

Am I saying that my program is comparable to a really big-name MD program? Definitely not, but it still graduates well-trained EM physicians every year.

The one MD program you rotated at -- was it a bottom of the barrel type MD program? Or was it mid-tier, or what?

I guess what I'm saying is that responses like this are of absolutely no help at all. I mean, I realize you want to be proud of your own program, but telling me it doesn't compare to a "really big-name MD program?" Come on, we all already know that! My question was: is it better than even the worst MD program. If you only rotated at one other MD program, and you admit your program is worse, then unless that was one of the worst MD programs, you don't know the answer.

If you're just wanting to defend your program because you matched there, but the reviews indicate it's one of the worst, then go somewhere else to blow that smoke.

 

[bevans]

This is my incredibly naive and inexperienced take on this issue- you are already a DO (as am I), which as you are no doubt beginning to recognize makes you different in some very good ways, but also some very bad ways; namely that you are starting out at a disadvantage in residency application through the ACGME match. Some will probably debate this, but it is a fact. You are looked at as a lower species of medical student by some, if not most ACGME programs. In order to put yourself on par with the MD students you first have to prove yourself by scoring well on their standardized tests (this is a generalization that applies to alot of ACGME programs, but not all). Essentially, you are guitly till proven innocent as a DO. I do not want to do the same thing with my career as I did in medical school. In other words, I don't want to go to a DO program, whether it is a great program or not, and then go on job interviews and get sideways glances and doubts about my training because I attained my training at an osteopathic program. Lets face it, osteopathic programs have a bad rap, which whether deserved or not will be associated with your own training if you do an osteopathic residency. Sadly, I have learned that medicine has little room for non-traditional people, even in a field (EM) that commonly attracts students that are non-conformists.

Note- this is my paranoid take. It is not an expert opinion and is only the result of my experince as an osteopathic medical student. I have just become tired of the stigma that some narrow minded people have laid upon me, and quite frankly don't have the interest in continuing to fight an uphill battle.

A little bit of refreshing honesty. It's good to hear.

 

[drdrtoledo]

The one MD program you rotated at -- was it a bottom of the barrel type MD program? Or was it mid-tier, or what?

I guess what I'm saying is that responses like this are of absolutely no help at all. I mean, I realize you want to be proud of your own program, but telling me it doesn't compare to a "really big-name MD program?" Come on, we all already know that! My question was: is it better than even the worst MD program. If you only rotated at one other MD program, and you admit your program is worse, then unless that was one of the worst MD programs, you don't know the answer.

If you're just wanting to defend your program because you matched there, but the reviews indicate it's one of the worst, then go somewhere else to blow that smoke.

Whoa!
Let's take it easy there. She was offering you a perspective. You asked for opinions. As a MSIII and IV you get to rotate at 1-3 EM programs so it's impossible to say anything definitively. You can go anywhere and be a competent doctor... But the truth is, it comes down to where you fit. This refers to learning style as well as personality. As I said before, DO programs are different in their teaching style. You are usually given more responsibility earlier. Also smaller hospitals mean less competition over procedures, codes, etc. So you need to weigh your needs/wants.

Also, if you hate the whole DO thing, don't bother applying AOA. You will be miserable and will make everyone around you miserable.

 

[DrQuinn]

Let me give a little anecdote that happened to one of "us" (meaning, a DO).

When I was an M3, there was a DO PGY1 doing her internship where I was rotating. She was super nice and great. She ended up matching at an OGME (DO verison of PGY) 2-4 program "in the midwest." She was so excited, got an apartment out there, and moved out after internship. THREE months into her residency, the program "shut down." I'm not sure if it was funding or accredidation or what, but ALL the residents were left out in the cold. Thankfully, she quickly contacted another DO program (who since has been having some accredidation problems) and was able to transfer there. She told me some of the other DO EM residents there weren't so lucky...

Q

 

[bevans]

Let me give a little anecdote that happened to one of "us" (meaning, a DO).

When I was an M3, there was a DO PGY1 doing her internship where I was rotating. She was super nice and great. She ended up matching at an OGME (DO verison of PGY) 2-4 program "in the midwest." She was so excited, got an apartment out there, and moved out after internship. THREE months into her residency, the program "shut down." I'm not sure if it was funding or accredidation or what, but ALL the residents were left out in the cold. Thankfully, she quickly contacted another DO program (who since has been having some accredidation problems) and was able to transfer there. She told me some of the other DO EM residents there weren't so lucky...

Q

Thanks Q. Now I'm beginning to understand why a quarter of those spots go unfilled. That's just outrageous.

I have definitely got to pick my grades up and figure out how to do better on standardized tests so I can get into an MD program and not have to worry about crap like this. I do *not* want to be one of these anecdotes in 3 years. Nor do I want to be in one of these programs and feel like I have to sing its praises everytime someone asks for an opinion about how bad they suck (I won't mention any names here ).

 

[DrQuinn]

Thanks Q. Now I'm beginning to understand why a quarter of those spots go unfilled. That's just outrageous.

I have definitely got to pick my grades up and figure out how to do better on standardized tests so I can get into an MD program and not have to worry about crap like this. I do *not* want to be one of these anecdotes in 3 years. Nor do I want to be in one of these programs and feel like I have to sing its praises everytime someone asks for an opinion about how bad they suck (I won't mention any names here ).

Listen, its not like you've gotten "bad grades" on purpose. Don't let this whole topic give you an ulcer! If you are a "good" applicant, you will match into Emergency Medicine. There are a LOT of programs in the nation that are very "DO friendly" and each year the total # of DO EM residents in allopathic programs is increasing. I think now its 8% of ALL EM residents in the country are DOs (this is NOT including the osteopathic program residents). The future is not as bleak as you think. I promise. If I can match at a program, YOU can match at a program.

To be honest, the only reason I would pick a DO program over an MD program is:
A) Location (which should be the top reason on anyones list)
B) You absolutely fell in love with it.

There are some gem DO EM programs out there. Some of the other SDNers will be able to let you know where those are. There are also some you should probably stay away from. But at this point in the game, as a second year, just learn what you're supposed to learn, study hard for the COMLEX (and USMLE), and kick butt on rotations. DO NOT FEEL YOU NEED TO WORK EXTRA HARD. First off, you should be working hard regardless, and second, the nay-sayers and the Laocoon's of SDN aren't always correct.

Q

 

[DrMom]

The one MD program you rotated at -- was it a bottom of the barrel type MD program? Or was it mid-tier, or what?

I guess what I'm saying is that responses like this are of absolutely no help at all. I mean, I realize you want to be proud of your own program, but telling me it doesn't compare to a "really big-name MD program?" Come on, we all already know that! My question was: is it better than even the worst MD program. If you only rotated at one other MD program, and you admit your program is worse, then unless that was one of the worst MD programs, you don't know the answer.

If you're just wanting to defend your program because you matched there, but the reviews indicate it's one of the worst, then go somewhere else to blow that smoke.

I guess you missed the important part:

it still graduates well-trained EM physicians every year.

 

[corpsmanUP]

Jeez, give DrMom a break already! She wrote an essay essentially to answer your questions. Talk like that will not have you getting much more help I can assure you!

I know little about DO EM programs overall. I know I have heard good things about Einstein in Phili, one in Lansing, Michigan, and of course the CCOM one at Midwestern. I have a buddy at Tulsa in another specialty and he told me not to bother applying to their EM program. But that was just his opinion. I decided not to go DO because I knew I would be competitive enough, and it was important for me to get into a program that was strong enough to give me experience in all around EM, EMS, flight medicine, and still have superb off-service rotations in a world class institution. I don't think many DO programs like this exist, and even if they had, I would not have invested 4 years. I ended up turning down an interview at Cinci, something I still have nightmares about!!. I certainly would not have been able to come up with a reason to justify going DO. I think it is actually important for competitive DO's to move into the allopathic world for the greater good of our future DO grads.

 

[bevans]

I guess you missed the important part:

And I guess I have to repeat:
Go pedal your ****ty program elsewhere.

 

[SoCuteMD]

And I guess I have to repeat:
Go pedal your ****ty program elsewhere.

Dude, lay off DrMom. I've never met her in person but she's clearly an incredible person (and she matched at her FIRST CHOICE!).

 

[bevans]

Listen, its not like you've gotten "bad grades" on purpose. Don't let this whole topic give you an ulcer! If you are a "good" applicant, you will match into Emergency Medicine. There are a LOT of programs in the nation that are very "DO friendly" and each year the total # of DO EM residents in allopathic programs is increasing. I think now its 8% of ALL EM residents in the country are DOs (this is NOT including the osteopathic program residents). The future is not as bleak as you think. I promise. If I can match at a program, YOU can match at a program.

To be honest, the only reason I would pick a DO program over an MD program is:
A) Location (which should be the top reason on anyones list)
B) You absolutely fell in love with it.

There are some gem DO EM programs out there. Some of the other SDNers will be able to let you know where those are. There are also some you should probably stay away from. But at this point in the game, as a second year, just learn what you're supposed to learn, study hard for the COMLEX (and USMLE), and kick butt on rotations. DO NOT FEEL YOU NEED TO WORK EXTRA HARD. First off, you should be working hard regardless, and second, the nay-sayers and the Laocoon's of SDN aren't always correct.

Q

Nice post.
I'm not trying to get low grades, but I could definitely pick it up a notch or two. After seeing how those in even the very worst DO programs will try to convince you that theirs is the best, I can only hope that those in some of the better DO programs are more honest with themselves and with those of us looking to get some legit info.

Thanks again, Q.

 

[BKN]

And I guess I have to repeat:
Go pedal your ****ty program elsewhere.

Bevans, guard your anonymity and pull in your horns. There are PDs on this forum (for example me). Right now I'd blackball you.

 

[deleted52758]

Thanks Q. Now I'm beginning to understand why a quarter of those spots go unfilled. That's just outrageous.

I have definitely got to pick my grades up and figure out how to do better on standardized tests so I can get into an MD program and not have to worry about crap like this. I do *not* want to be one of these anecdotes in 3 years. Nor do I want to be in one of these programs and feel like I have to sing its praises everytime someone asks for an opinion about how bad they suck (I won't mention any names here ).

let me just say this...

i hope you dont match at my program. you need to calm down and treat people with respect, heck u gotta respect your own (osteopathic )education.

but best of luck otherwise.

 

[8744]

Dude, lay off DrMom. I've never met her in person but she's clearly an incredible person (and she matched at her FIRST CHOICE!).

Amen. We don't always see eye to eye but Dr. Mom is never anything but courteous, good humored, and very sincere in her ideas.

This is the first "smiley" I have used in my entire career. (and the last)

 

[corpsmanUP]

Nice post.
I'm not trying to get low grades, but I could definitely pick it up a notch or two. After seeing how those in even the very worst DO programs will try to convince you that theirs is the best, I can only hope that those in some of the better DO programs are more honest with themselves and with those of us looking to get some legit info.

Thanks again, Q.

I'd personally like to be the first to tell you that you are probably "screwed" for EM. If you are meager at best as a student, you won't stand a chance in the MD match. And if you are as "warm and fuzzy" in person as you are to one of out regulars DrMom, you stand even less chance in the DO match which is more centered in personality. Your best bet would probably be to get some therapy in the next two years and study a little harder. I'd also like to be the first to predict that Quinn bans your trolling self for a couple of weeks.....so have a nice vacation.

I'm sorry you had to hear such rude comments DrMom. You did not deserve that. Congrats on matching at your top choice in Tulsa.

 

[ElZorro]

Bevans, guard your anonymity and pull in your horns. There are PDs on this forum (for example me). Right now I'd blackball you.

Busted!!

Proof again that anonymity is golden (thats why I wear the mask, black cape, and pimp hat)

 

[bevans]

I know, I know. We're all supposed to feel sorry for her now...
I gave her a chance to get the f*ck out, but she came back for more. What am I supposed to say, "Tulsa is a fine program that has a lot to offer those who didn't perform well in medical school. I soon hope someday to walk through their doors?" Hey, that's not half bad. Probably something I'll be putting in my app for your program, BKN. And you'll eat it up, B

"Please ban him, Q. It's too much for us to bear..." Pathetic.

 

[deleted52758]

The one MD program you rotated at -- was it a bottom of the barrel type MD program? Or was it mid-tier, or what?

I guess what I'm saying is that responses like this are of absolutely no help at all. I mean, I realize you want to be proud of your own program, but telling me it doesn't compare to a "really big-name MD program?" Come on, we all already know that! My question was: is it better than even the worst MD program. If you only rotated at one other MD program, and you admit your program is worse, then unless that was one of the worst MD programs, you don't know the answer.

If you're just wanting to defend your program because you matched there, but the reviews indicate it's one of the worst, then go somewhere else to blow that smoke.

i reread your responses, and you're exactly the type of medical student i would like to drop kick. and seriously, i think i am the least aggressive person in the world, there are only probably two other people i'd like to drop kick... kim jong il, and osama...

team america!!! F- yeah!

at this point, he's just trying to get a rise out of us. just ignore him, and he'll go away.

 

[drdrtoledo]

Banned for Trolling
I knew that guy wasn't going to make it through the night .

 

[deleted52758]

i reread your responses, and you're exactly the type of medical student i would like to drop kick. and seriously, i think i am the least aggressive person in the world, there are only probably two other people i'd like to drop kick... kim jong il, and osama...

team america!!! F- yeah!

at this point, he's just trying to get a rise out of us. just ignore him, and he'll go away.

i also want to drop kick president logan. i hate that guy!

him and nina myers!

 

[DrQuinn]

Dude, you're just an idiot. You really do have some personality disorders....

Nice post.
I'm not trying to get low grades, but I could definitely pick it up a notch or two. After seeing how those in even the very worst DO programs will try to convince you that theirs is the best, I can only hope that those in some of the better DO programs are more honest with themselves and with those of us looking to get some legit info.

Thanks again, Q.

 

[tkim]

Dude, you're just an idiot. You really do have some personality disorders....

Quinn, this is the return troll. Check the Mod forums for further.

 

[JMC_MarineCorps]

So I took the bait and read both pages of this, at first glance, honest enough thread -- the question still is relevant for me -- in all my glorious non-anonymity.

Since all my favorite 'heavy hitters' (or 'heavy guns' for the likes of Panda and CorpsmanUp) are lurking here I thought I would post and see what the consensus is these days.

I am a 2nd year DO student taking the COMLEX only and interested in DO programs based soley on the premise that I should be able to match with >95% certainty (not to mention that I am a DO student and very thankful for that).

What say the SDN elders with re: to this logic. I will not take the USMLE nor am I seriously considering any allopathic residency -- although I admit I looked at the '06 ACGME unmatched list and saw 6 unfilled positions at King-Drew (right in my backyard) -- the wife would be happy about staying in CA). I know it might shut down, but if that scares everyone off...more likely I could get in (half-way joking).

Throughout medschool, I have 'successfully' balanced family life with school and my grades and knowledge base have suffered for it, but I accept that. Having served as an infantryman in a former life, I feel that didactics are most definitely my weakness and that any lost ground will have to be made up for during clerkships, which I intend to work a bit harder in considering I feel this area will be a strength for me -- thus gaining lost ground if such a thing exists.

I know that most allo spots are 3 yrs vs 4 for AOA and the structure is arguably more sound in the allo world, but I wouldn't want to have to scramble for an allo internal med/family practice/gen surgery spot if I crapped out.

There is all this talk about 'good/best' programs and I really am not buying into any of it...as long as I am adequately trained to do my job and I can get hired in CA or FL s/p residency then I'll be happy no matter what.

SDN elders...check my logic please...I love to hear your comments.

 

[drdrtoledo]

There is all this talk about 'good/best' programs and I really am not buying into any of it...as long as I am adequately trained to do my job and I can get hired in CA or FL s/p residency then I'll be happy no matter what.
SDN elders...check my logic please...I love to hear your comments.

Don't buy into the hoopla. If the bolded part of your statement holds true then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. All programs have to go through some sort of evaluation process, AOA or ACGME. You will be a competent physician coming out of most if not every program. From speaking to colleagues, passing the boards is really based on the individual and there are many resources to aid the resident. Limits in job opportunities come only if your goal is to teach at a major place. Even this seems to be overblown sometimes. Otherwise there are plenty of positions in the country for EM doctors. Certification and licensure are the only true requisites. There are many AOA residency grads that go out and practice all over the place every year.

As is said over and over again... what matters most is that you feel comfortable at your residency. Every place has patients, pathology, and exposure to trauma and procedures. The differences you will find are in the scope and quantity of these experiences. Larger vs smaller institutions, rural vs ghetto, county vs private are all important factors to consider when making a choice. That variety is represented in AOA residencies. There are a lot of choices.

Those of us who took USMLE, did so to be on equal footing and maybe get a little extra into our applications for ACGME programs. It is not required. I know a few that matched at my school this year that didn't take it. The important thing to note is that the osteopathic match happens first... so if you wait for the allo match you have pretty much forsaken your chances at a lot of DO programs. And scrambling is not pleasant from what I hear. So if you are fine with an AOA program it would be the safest, surest bet. Also it would be a lot less stressful on the family as most DO programs give you the OK before the actual match takes place .Those of us that chose ACGME did so for various reasons... but I don't think any one of us would ever bash AOA programs as a whole.

You best bet is to talk to the PD's and residents at the programs you are looking at. Find out where they are getting jobs and if any are running into trouble. That should help ease any confusion or hesitancy. Good luck and I hope this babbling helped.
AT

 

[OSUdoc08]

Really? That's good to hear. I assume you're referring to Oklahoma? Scutwork.com indicated the DO program in Tulsa was pretty bad.

Hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but your sig indicates you're an MS-II like me. How much "experience" with all these EM residencies could you possibly have? Did you work as a nurse or EMT or something before med school. 'cause so far (and I'm a 2yr also), I've seen the inside of exactly one ER.

The program in Oklahoma City is VERY GOOD. It has the highest patient volume of any ER in the state, and has excellent academics & research.

See my comments on the Tulsa program in my next post below.

I was a paramedic for 5 years, but I have several acquaintances that are residents at the programs in the area and I work with them sometimes, and talk with them about their experiences.

 

[OSUdoc08]

That scutwork eval you refer to is nearly 4 years old.

I've spent a ton of time at the Tulsa program over the past 3 years (and matched there) and the eval doesn't fit what I've seen. Residents definitely get intubations, codes, etc. Also, the program has scheduled didactics 2 mornings/week. Certainly it isn't a huge academic program, but it is definitely a competent one that has decent volume and good pathology.

I agree with Dr. Mom. In addition, the new director of this program is very good and will improve the program very much in the academic arena.

There is one problem that the program cannot help however, and something I can't get past.

The Tulsa program is at a hospital where trauma is taken as a last resort by EMS.

Being a trauma junkie myself, this just doesn't cut it for me.

 

[corpsmanUP]

Sup Devil Dog,

Good to hear from you again. Someone like you can get into pretty much any program you want if you play your cards right. You are a member of the vest fraternity on earth! Your personal statement will make most med students' PS sound like crap no matter how you tell your story. The EM community is deeply infiltrated with ex military guys who love your type, and wannabe's who are actually neverwere's and live vocariously through you. That said, find the residency you are interested in and don't worry about the AOA/ACGME issue. You CAN get it. If nothing else, by the time you are applying I should hopefully by the grace of God be an incoming chief or senior resident. I'll still be here on the forum you can bet and I'll be happy to pass along any and all connections I have made along this path. I know several of my interviews were soley from being a corpsman. Yes, I took the USMLE and did well, but I think you could still do well in the match without it. A friend of mine just this week matched allopathic ortho as a DO, and he was average across the board believe it or not. Embrace your past, kick butt on 3rd year clerkships and study hard and take Step II early. If you do well on both COMLEX.....greater than 600 each, you have a great shot.

I'll have to disagree with you on the AOA/ACGME quality issue. I think your chance to learn EM is a short one, only 3-4 years. I believe most DO programs reflect too well the type of ED you will be practicing in in real life, but don't always have all the essential tools. I think its really important to have active roles in EMS, flight, trauma, and most importantly some of the things outside the ED that have everything to do with the quality of the institution as a whole. Hec thats why I chose Mayo as my 2nd choice, and nearly ranked it first. Half your EM residency is spent on services outside the ED (nearly). Nothing like training on teams with world class physicians and surgeons, and to me I was not all that confident that there were really ANY osteopathic institutions that included these things without having to ship you to 15 different places to try and fragment/coordinate your education.

And personally, I just hate training in places that have a majority of DO's as attendings. DO attendings are often bitter old men that tow the AOA line at all costs and carry grudges against the modern medical establishment. Before our osteopathic hospital here closed our rotations and residencies there were unbelievably painful and rather bad. Just don't sell yourself short. You have an advantage that few people will ever have...a DD214! Go for it!

 

[OSUdoc08]

Sup Devil Dog,

Good to hear from you again. Someone like you can get into pretty much any program you want if you play your cards right. You are a member of the vest fraternity on earth! Your personal statement will make most med students' PS sound like crap no matter how you tell your story. The EM community is deeply infiltrated with ex military guys who love your type, and wannabe's who are actually neverwere's and live vocariously through you. That said, find the residency you are interested in and don't worry about the AOA/ACGME issue. You CAN get it. If nothing else, by the time you are applying I should hopefully by the grace of God be an incoming chief or senior resident. I'll still be here on the forum you can bet and I'll be happy to pass along any and all connections I have made along this path. I know several of my interviews were soley from being a corpsman. Yes, I took the USMLE and did well, but I think you could still do well in the match without it. A friend of mine just this week matched allopathic ortho as a DO, and he was average across the board believe it or not. Embrace your past, kick butt on 3rd year clerkships and study hard and take Step II early. If you do well on both COMLEX.....greater than 600 each, you have a great shot.

I'll have to disagree with you on the AOA/ACGME quality issue. I think your chance to learn EM is a short one, only 3-4 years. I believe most DO programs reflect too well the type of ED you will be practicing in in real life, but don't always have all the essential tools. I think its really important to have active roles in EMS, flight, trauma, and most importantly some of the things outside the ED that have everything to do with the quality of the institution as a whole. Hec thats why I chose Mayo as my 2nd choice, and nearly ranked it first. Half your EM residency is spent on services outside the ED (nearly). Nothing like training on teams with world class physicians and surgeons, and to me I was not all that confident that there were really ANY osteopathic institutions that included these things without having to ship you to 15 different places to try and fragment/coordinate your education.

And personally, I just hate training in places that have a majority of DO's as attendings. DO attendings are often bitter old men that tow the AOA line at all costs and carry grudges against the modern medical establishment. Before our osteopathic hospital here closed our rotations and residencies there were unbelievably painful and rather bad. Just don't sell yourself short. You have an advantage that few people will ever have...a DD214! Go for it!

Let's be careful here. We don't want to mislead people into thinking this, since practically ALL of the EM residencies in my area are led by younger attendings that are enthusiastic people & excellent physicians. I haven't seen the "bitter old man" in EM where I live.

 

[BKN]

Let's be careful here. We don't want to mislead people into thinking this, since practically ALL of the EM residencies in my area are led by younger attendings that are enthusiastic people & excellent physicians. I haven't seen the "bitter old man" in EM where I live.

No, that's me!

BTW This morning I'm submitting a paper suggesting near equivalence of COMLEX and USMLE scores. I'll post the cite if I get it published.

 

[wook]

Bevans, guard your anonymity and pull in your horns. There are PDs on this forum (for example me). Right now I'd blackball you.

Thanks BKN!

I agree. I may not be a PD, but I too would blackball you.


Wook

 

[Squad51]

And I guess I have to repeat:
Go pedal your ****ty program elsewhere.

A computer and internet access: $1500
An account on an internet forum: $0

Arguing with and insulting an administrator/moderator who can unmask your anonymity to any and all (including Program Directors) on the forum: priceless