DO friendly specialties

[cliquesh]

Any idea on AOA IM fellowship opportunities?

You can search for them here http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...essionid=f03061d83849c11075a061d18615e28237d1

Cardiology is most plentiful

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[Dr Dazzle]

You can search for them here http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...essionid=f03061d83849c11075a061d18615e28237d1

Cardiology is most plentiful

So why the worry about the DO bias? Seems like there are enough opportunities out there to practice in the area you want.

 

[da Vincis World]

So why the worry about the DO bias? Seems like there are enough opportunities out there to practice in the area you want.

Many (not all) DO residencies are at smaller hospitals and don't have the case volume/variety that you see at most university level MD programs. When you are working with peoples hearts (such as in cardiology), you want to have seen a lot of variety in residency/fellowship.

 

[cliquesh]

So why the worry about the DO bias? Seems like there are enough opportunities out there to practice in the area you want.

There are AOA residencies and fellowships in a lot of different fields of medicine, but now many spots. So there are 25 cardiology fellowships, the most plentiful fellowship in the AOA world, and these fellowships, on average, take 1 to 2 fellows per year, so about 35 cardiology spots are offered each year. 369 DOs matched AOA IM last year. That's pretty good odds of going into cardiology. Then there is GI. There are 16 programs. They take 1 or 2 fellows per year. So about 20 spots open each year. Then there is hem/ onc. There are 7 programs and they offer 1 spot per year.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

There are AOA residencies and fellowships in a lot of different fields of medicine, but now many spots. So there are 25 cardiology fellowships, the most plentiful fellowship in the AOA world, and these fellowships, on average, take 1 to 2 fellows per year, so about 35 cardiology spots are offered each year. 369 DOs matched AOA IM last year. That's pretty good odds of going into cardiology. Then there is GI. There are 16 programs. They take 1 or 2 fellows per year. So about 20 spots open each year. Then there is hem/ onc. There are 7 programs and they offer 1 spot per year.

How much better are the odds for MD students trying to get these fellowships? Do you see any changes in this odds for DOs with the 2015 combination where technically everything will be ACGME?

 

[cliquesh]

How much better are the odds for MD students trying to get these fellowships? Do you see any changes in this odds for DOs with the 2015 combination where technically everything will be ACGME?

In 2012, there were 779 Acgme cardiology fellowships offered. 409 were filled by US MD. 43 were filled by DOs. In 2010 there were 2,722 USMDs that matched internal medicine. There were 292 DOs that matched ACGME internal medicine that year. 409/2722 = 16%. 43/292= 15%.

I think those who matched in 2010 applied for the 2012 fellowships, but im not 100%.

I don't think the combined match will help or hurt DOs in the short term. It will probably help in the long term, but not by the time you're in school.

I don't feel like doing it for other fellowships. You can find the data here.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/index.html

 

[Instatewaiter]

I think you need to go to a GOOD IM residency--not a place like Santa Barbara Cottage. There aren't many GI spots nationwide, and you would be competing with people from Hopkins, Mass Gen, BWH, Stanford, UW, etc.. You had better get into a good IM program and perform well. No community-based, mediocre places.

Yes and no. Going to a better IM residency makes your job a lot easier in terms of matching to a fellowship. You have a vastly higher likelihood of matching and matching to a strong program. That said, there are tiers of fellowships and the people at the Hopkins/MGH's of the world are not applying to the same places as people at Santa Barbara Cottage Community Clinic.

I really don't think that's true at all. 5% of IM residents are DOs and 5% of GI and cards Fellows are DOs. It just seems proportional to however many DOs there are. Going to a good residency with fellowship options is all you need to do. Look at the alumi of various IM programs. DO placement doesn't seem to be any different than the MD placement. Yeah, there is still some DO bias, but it is significantly less than when applying for residency.

From the ACGME data, we do not have the denominator to know how many DOs applied. But what we do have does not support that there is DO discriminiation once you get to IM Now it could be a different story if we had all the data*

 

[DrPapa]

DO unfriendly (not going to happen): all of the other surgical specialities, like ortho, urology, etc., derm, rad-onc

This is why so few DOs match these fields: people are assuming they don't have a chance going in. We're told all along that we don't have a chance, not to try, don't even bother, etc. Yet if you look at the interview numbers, a significant amount do interview DOs.

Last year 2 DOs matched ortho, 1 neurosurg, 1 vascular surg. Derm has taken DOs in the past. Ortho and neurosurg typically take a few. So to say definitively it's "not going to happen," is wrong.

I'm betting those number will go up significantly once the matches combine and so many DOs aren't being actively discouraged from ranking those ACGME specialties. How many DOs actually participated in the ACGME match for ortho, neurosurg, vascular surg, etc last year? That number's not available, but I bet it's not very many.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

This is why so few DOs match these fields: people are assuming they don't have a chance going in. We're told all along that we don't have a chance, not to try, don't even bother, etc. Yet if you look at the interview numbers, a significant amount do interview DOs.

Last year 2 DOs matched ortho, 1 neurosurg, 1 vascular surg. Derm has taken DOs in the past. Ortho and neurosurg typically take a few. So to say definitively it's "not going to happen," is wrong.

I'm betting those number will go up significantly once the matches combine and so many DOs aren't being actively discouraged from ranking those ACGME specialties. How many DOs actually participated in the ACGME match for ortho, neurosurg, vascular surg, etc last year? That number's not available, but I bet it's not very many.

You are right. It's not logical for DOs to skip the AOA match for competitive specialties. At least the DO students who have the stats required. I guess its also a matter of not having enough DO students have done well enough on the USMLE and want the competitive specialty and are willing to take the risk of not matching.

 

[cliquesh]

You are right. It's not logical for DOs to skip the AOA match for competitive specialties. At least the DO students who have the stats required. I guess its also a matter of not having enough DO students have done well enough on the USMLE and want the competitive specialty and are willing to take the risk of not matching.

You have to have huge balls to pass up AOA ortho for a shot at acgme ortho. I know of 3 people in my class above a 240 on the usmle. I'm sure there are more, I just haven't heard of them.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

You have to have huge balls to pass up AOA ortho for a shot at acgme ortho. I know of 3 people in my class above a 240 on the usmle. I'm sure there are more, I just haven't heard of them.

What were their comlex scores? Almost makes me wonder if its just worth it to focus all effort on comlex if trying to go for competitive specialty as DO. Most other acgme specialties are or will accept just comlex scores for a decent program.

 

[cliquesh]

vel

What were their comlex scores? Almost makes me wonder if its just worth it to focus all effort on comlex if trying to go for competitive specialty as DO. Most other acgme specialties are or will accept just comlex scores for a decent program.

Low 600s, mid 600s and low 500s. Take the usmle. If you want to do surgery then take the comlex.

 

[DrWBD]

I just think if you do make it to a university program, your odds of going on to a cards/GI/hem fellowship are not drastically lower than a USMD resident at the same program. It seems pretty much the same. You may have to stay on as an internal candidate, but whatever.

I don't think the MD has much to do with it..

[YOUTUBE]KQxhOYqLPdY[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Dr Dazzle]

[YOUTUBE]KQxhOYqLPdY[/YOUTUBE]

What do you mean? You know something we don't?

 

[DrWBD]

What do you mean? You know something we don't?

Applying for a competitive ACGME fellowship such as cardiology or gastroenterology as a D.O. almost always puts you at a disadvantage compared to an equally-qualified American M.D. applicant.

 

[goooooober]

This is certainly not the only reason.....

To all the folks on this thread wanting to match ACGME you absolutely need to take the USMLE.....it opens so many more doors for you. Your school, your friends, and many others may try to talk you out of it........DO NOT LISTEN. They are only closing doors for YOU. The number of kids that decide as an MS1 to not take USMLE and then regret that decision as an MS3 is huge.

As a current PGY-6 at a competitive University MD gen surg program in the east coast, I agree with this statement.

Good programs are always competitive, irrespective of specialty, and they are also the places usually with the best fellowships and opportunities to do what you want, not to mention provide you with the best, most up to date training. Remember, residency is where they make you into a doctor, not medical school. So it is critical to land the spot at the best residency that fits you and your personality.

Taking the USMLE is essential in making your resume equal to MD applicants, even if some PDs or other faculty will discriminate against you as a DO. That is the reality of life. But not taking the USMLE automatically limits you as an applicant and apples will not be compared with oranges for residency or fellowship.

I would recommend going through the pain of preparing and taking the USMLE, which will tremendously improve your application.

Good luck.

 

[MedPR]

I though Emergency Medicine would be a lot more friendly than that!

I'm surprised neurosurg isn't higher. I'd imagine they aren't overly saturated with MD applicants

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[DrPapa]

I'm surprised neurosurg isn't higher. I'd imagine they aren't overly saturated with MD applicants

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196 slots, 318 applicants, 203 of which were US MD seniors, 170 of which matched (another 5 were US grads that weren't coming straight out of school). So, yeah, not overly saturated with MD applicants. Unfortunately it doesn't give the breakdown of the remaining applicants, just the remaining matches (1 DO, 5 US IMG, 13 non-US IMG and 2 unfilled).

 

[cabinbuilder]

I'm surprised neurosurg isn't higher. I'd imagine they aren't overly saturated with MD applicants

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Well, not many people want to do a 7 year residency.

 

[JGimpel]

I don't know if this is relevant with the 2015 changes where theoretically DOs can match with any MD specialty. However, I'm assuming that MD PD bias will still exist. At this point what are DO friendly specialties in the ACGME world?

I ask, because I have been told that there are much fewer spots open in AOA specialties, making it likely that a student may have to pursue an ACGME residency.

This is a variation on the "DO vs. MD" and "if I go to a lowly DO school, can I still do X" threads that have been trolled to death. Let's move this to the Pre K-12 thread and be done with it. Please use the search function to find other threads like this; many exist for you to review.

:troll:

 

[sylvanthus]

What were their comlex scores? Almost makes me wonder if its just worth it to focus all effort on comlex if trying to go for competitive specialty as DO. Most other acgme specialties are or will accept just comlex scores for a decent program.

Comlex is a crap shoot at times, so putting all effort into it is definately no guarantee. I think it is easier to study hard and do well on the usmle than to study hard and do well on the comlex. This is coming from a guy who did better on the comlex overall even. There are just too many random questions that you cant prepare for on the comlex.

 

[da Vincis World]

Comlex is a crap shoot at times, so putting all effort into it is definately no guarantee. I think it is easier to study hard and do well on the usmle than to study hard and do well on the comlex. This is coming from a guy who did better on the comlex overall even. There are just too many random questions that you cant prepare for on the comlex.

There should be no divide in studying for USMLE vs COMLEX. Just study hard for the USMLE, take it, then give yourself a day or so to go over the OMT in Savarese (mainly the viserosomatic reflexes) and then take comlex. You don't need any other comlex specific books or Qbanks....FA and uworld are more than adequate for comlex prep.

 

[cliquesh]

There should be no divide in studying for USMLE vs COMLEX. Just study hard for the USMLE, take it, then give yourself a day or so to go over the OMT in Savarese (mainly the viserosomatic reflexes) and then take comlex. You don't need any other comlex specific books or Qbanks....FA and uworld are more than adequate for comlex prep.

Both tests, in general, test the same material, but they ask different questions about the same diseases. You'd be doing yourself a disservice if you do not use combank or comquest.

 

[da Vincis World]

Both tests, in general, test the same material, but they ask different questions about the same diseases. You'd be doing yourself a disservice if you do not use combank or comquest.

From my own experience I managed to score well over 700 without wasting my time on a comlex specific bank. I did look at them but they are significantly inferior to uworld (they inferior to pretty much every major USMLE bank).

 

[MrBeauregard]

Both tests, in general, test the same material, but they ask different questions about the same diseases. You'd be doing yourself a disservice if you do not use combank or comquest.

Not necessarily.

I didn't do a single question from COMBANK or COMQUEST and scored just shy of 720.

Studying for the USMLE is studying for the COMLEX.

 

[sylvanthus]

Im not sure why we are arguing over this. Perhaps it is a not so subtle brag thread now? Well let me join the fray. I also scored well over 700 and stand by my statement that comlex can be a bloody crapshoot.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

This is why so few DOs match these fields: people are assuming they don't have a chance going in. We're told all along that we don't have a chance, not to try, don't even bother, etc. Yet if you look at the interview numbers, a significant amount do interview DOs.

Last year 2 DOs matched ortho, 1 neurosurg, 1 vascular surg. Derm has taken DOs in the past. Ortho and neurosurg typically take a few. So to say definitively it's "not going to happen," is wrong.

I'm betting those number will go up significantly once the matches combine and so many DOs aren't being actively discouraged from ranking those ACGME specialties. How many DOs actually participated in the ACGME match for ortho, neurosurg, vascular surg, etc last year? That number's not available, but I bet it's not very many.

One dynamic sometimes overlooked in these long shot matches is whether or not the DO applying has personal and/or family ties to the program's administration. If you've been doing research since you were an undergrad with the PD of an allo ENT program, you're going to have a major edge. Same if your father/uncle/family friend is the PD of some allo derm program. From what I've heard, it seems like many of these crazy matches involve some sort of behind-the-scenes relationship (with exceptions, certainly).

 

[dozitgetchahi]

There are AOA residencies and fellowships in a lot of different fields of medicine, but now many spots. So there are 25 cardiology fellowships, the most plentiful fellowship in the AOA world, and these fellowships, on average, take 1 to 2 fellows per year, so about 35 cardiology spots are offered each year. 369 DOs matched AOA IM last year. That's pretty good odds of going into cardiology. Then there is GI. There are 16 programs. They take 1 or 2 fellows per year. So about 20 spots open each year. Then there is hem/ onc. There are 7 programs and they offer 1 spot per year.

Another issue with DO fellowships is that they're often very 'incestuous' - they really only match people from residency programs at the same institution.

 

[da Vincis World]

Im not sure why we are arguing over this. Perhaps it is a not so subtle brag thread now? Well let me join the fray. I also scored well over 700 and stand by my statement that comlex can be a bloody crapshoot.

While my goal was to brag I believe MrBeauregard was illustrating that there is no need to direct study efforts specifically toward the comlex….he posted his score to support his argument. What spurred these statements was the comment by cliquesh that "You'd be doing yourself a disservice if you do not use combank or comquest", which is absolutely incorrect.

With your score being over 700 it is apparent that you had one hell of a day at the craps table.

 

[MrBeauregard]

With your score being over 700 it is apparent that you had one hell of a day at the craps table.

I'd say all three of us did.

 

[babdoc]

OP:

all the fields that no one wants.

Although you might be right in some cases, this isn't true in all. As evidence: IM. The rational: a fairly desirable specialty due to the large variety of subspecialty options, not to mention that there are approximately 70 million medicine spots.

 

[shibby1111]

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