Do I get to claim non-trad?

[medmom]

I am a 22yofemale, married, with 3 children age 4 and under. This would make me a non-trad right?
medmom

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[chopper]

I am a 22yofemale, married, with 3 children age 4 and under. This would make me a non-trad right?
medmom

Maybe not in the traditional definition of non-trad (lol sorry, couldn't help myself).

I think 'non-trad' is a bit of a dated term with so many people with backgrounds different from the cookie cutter image of a pre-med. You will definately have a whole bunch to talk about at interviews. More power to you!

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

3 kids? yeah, you're non-trad! i think of non-trads as those of us who aren't the typical arrogant 21 year old. I used to teach college so I feel justified in calling them arrogant. Anyone with 3 kids has definately had the arrogance knocked out of them. I mean, the bodily functions involved in pregnancy alone will do it to you... I have a one year old with #2 due in November. For me, it was motherhood, not age, that matured me. Welcome!

 

[njbmd]

I am a 22yofemale, married, with 3 children age 4 and under. This would make me a non-trad right?
medmom

Hi there,
There is no magical definition of non-traditional premedical student. If you look at the description of this forum, you should get an idea of the people who generally fit under non-traditional.

The fact that you have children does not generally make you a non-traditional premedical student. If you have graduated from college and had another career before coming to medicine, then you fit the non-traditional mold. Many traditional medical students have children both before medical school and while in school/residency.

Also, beware that being non-traditional does not confer any special status in terms of your application or admission to medical school. It just puts you in an category for statistics. If you look at the performance of traditional versus non-traditional medical students, you will see that traditional medical students generally out perform non-traditional madical students.

Rather than worry about your statistical classification, apply and see how you do.

njbmd

 

[njbmd]

3 kids? yeah, you're non-trad! i think of non-trads as those of us who aren't the typical arrogant 21 year old. I used to teach college so I feel justified in calling them arrogant. Anyone with 3 kids has definately had the arrogance knocked out of them. I mean, the bodily functions involved in pregnancy alone will do it to you... I have a one year old with #2 due in November. For me, it was motherhood, not age, that matured me. Welcome!

Hi there,
Be very careful about name calling younger applicants and medical students. Those "typical, arrogant 21 year old"s will out perform the older student at every phase of this process. I was a former reseacher and medical school professor before I attended medical school and I have nothing but respect for anyone (regardless of age) who gets through this process. It is not easy at any age.

njbmd

 

[thirdunity]

If you look at the performance of traditional versus non-traditional medical students, you will see that traditional medical students generally out perform non-traditional madical students.

Why is this so? In my experience so far as a college student (though not a med student), non-traditional-age students actually outperformed the traditional age students... it always seemed the older students had the advantage in terms of study skills, critical thinking skills, motivation, and life experience.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Why is this so? In my experience so far as a college student (though not a med student), non-traditional-age students actually outperformed the traditional age students... it always seemed the older students had the advantage in terms of study skills, critical thinking skills, motivation, and life experience.

Maybe its the rote memorization of the first two years that gives the traditional student the early advantage?

The non-trads critical thinking skills may become more valuable during the clinical years.

Just a guess.

 

[QofQuimica]

Why is this so? In my experience so far as a college student (though not a med student), non-traditional-age students actually outperformed the traditional age students... it always seemed the older students had the advantage in terms of study skills, critical thinking skills, motivation, and life experience.

I think a lot of it has to do with the amount of time that has passed since the person was last a student. Traditional students who go straight through school never get out of that student mode, while non-trads who go back to school have to make a major adjustment to become students again. Like you, I find that non-trads tend to be good students (motivated, ask good questions, complete assignments, etc.). But traditionals often tend to out-score non-trads on tests, both in classes and also on the MCAT. You can see the stats on the AAMC webpage; the youngest students on average score the highest.

I agree with njb that we shouldn't underestimate the ability and motivation of the younger students any more than they should be underestimating ours. There are some simply amazing kids out there; I've even seen a couple that started med school in their teens.

 

[shorrin]

...I've even seen a couple that started med school in their teens.

There's the one guy at pritzker that started at age of 12. He want's to work on cancer... he just might pull it off!

 

[QofQuimica]

There's the one guy at pritzker that started at age of 12. He want's to work on cancer... he just might pull it off!

I read about him somewhere too. He is obviously very bright and motivated, and he definitely has my respect. That being said, I'm not totally comfortable with the general idea of putting a child in medical school, regardless of his brilliance. What about his own personal and social development? What do you guys think? Am I being too narrow-minded about this?

 

[MoosePilot]

I read about him somewhere too. He is obviously very bright and motivated, and he definitely has my respect. That being said, I'm not totally comfortable with the general idea of putting a child in medical school, regardless of his brilliance. What about his own personal and social development? What do you guys think? Am I being too narrow-minded about this?

No, I have the same feelings, but then again, the thought of some science fiction scenario where my current "mind" got trapped in a child's body and adults wouldn't let me pursue what I wanted to... maybe it's like that. Maybe he's so smart he needs the intellectual exercise for his mental health.

I'd let the child guide it to a certain extent. If he starts showing signs of stress, I'd give him plenty of room to back off, knowing he could reenter later.

 

[shorrin]

apparently he is doing MD/PhD so he'd be 18 by the time M3 year hit... anybody else miss doogie howser reruns?

 

[jintonic5]

Would the professors be able to ground him for bad grades?

As smart as some kids are, I think 12 is way too young for the responsibilities associated with being a physician. He may be a genius, but emotionally he's 12. What kind of decision-making skills in LIFE would he have? Based on what experience? I realize that there are federal child labor laws that prohibit working for profit until 16, but if I were a malpractice insurance company, I wouldn't cover him until he was 21.

But that's just my opinion.

well, from what i've read of him, he's much more interested in academia than clinical work-- and his school has put him on a special schedule where he will do his clinical years last, so he'll be ~18-19. he seems to have a very supportive family unit and his fellow md/phd students treat him well. that in combination with the fact taht he's doing what he loves and is at the top of his med school class... i just hope the teenage years will be kind to him i'm concerned he'll come out some sort of isolated prodigy, but i guess to hold him back would be a greater disservice.

 

[JamieMac]

I agree with njb that we shouldn't underestimate the ability and motivation of the younger students any more than they should be underestimating ours. There are some simply amazing kids out there; I've even seen a couple that started med school in their teens.

My girlfriend started med school just prior to turning 18. She is still in residency, and I can tell you that she is still challenged with issues that probably would not phase non-trads as much (this is her admission by the way). She will also be the first to tell you that you do not have to be a brilliant person to be a great doc. So, my take on all of this is that even though the traditional candidate might have the edge on us regarding age, performances on tests, etc...we could have the edge coming out of residency as a result of life experiences in general. Sure, this may not be true in all circumstances, but I could see how life experience could play a vital role in this area.

 

[mdille2]

Would the professors be able to ground him for bad grades?

As smart as some kids are, I think 12 is way too young for the responsibilities associated with being a physician. He may be a genius, but emotionally he's 12. What kind of decision-making skills in LIFE would he have? Based on what experience? I realize that there are federal child labor laws that prohibit working for profit until 16, but if I were a malpractice insurance company, I wouldn't cover him until he was 21.

But that's just my opinion.

Well if he were a typical 12 year old he would definitely be too immature, but let's face it. A 12 year old that has been acepted to Pritzker is NOT a typical 12 year old. I know I had to fight my 12 year old to do his homework and take a bath. I bet this kid does not even have to be told that. So, that being said, I do not feel like a 12 year old should be in a clinical setting, for legal reasons, but I do feel that he will be ready for it much sooner than most.
Marcia

 

[QofQuimica]

My girlfriend started med school just prior to turning 18. She is still in residency, and I can tell you that she is still challenged with issues that probably would not phase non-trads as much (this is her admission by the way). She will also be the first to tell you that you do not have to be a brilliant person to be a great doc. So, my take on all of this is that even though the traditional candidate might have the edge on us regarding age, performances on tests, etc...we could have the edge coming out of residency as a result of life experiences in general. Sure, this may not be true in all circumstances, but I could see how life experience could play a vital role in this area.

I tend to agree with you and megboo. If it were up to me, I think that I would not allow children younger than 18 to go to medical school, and for the exact reasons that you both gave. Not that 18 is a magic maturity number, but you do have to draw a line somewhere, and 18 is the number that we have agreed upon as a society to delineate adulthood.

njb and I were responding to a previous poster who called traditional students arrogant. For what it's worth, I have found that the most brilliant people I know tend to be the LEAST arrogant, whether they are 12 or 20 or old enough to be non-trads.

 

[mdille2]

Blech. I hold firm to my opinion in this case. No matter how well his grades were, I would not feel comfortable with a 16 year old resident treating me if I had the choice (even if it were female). But hey, if you guys aren't concerned, cool. It's just not my cup of tea.

No Meg, I agree, but not for the immaturity reason. I think at 12 or 16 or whatever...You have to be accountable and at 17 and under..You aren't really legally responsible for much..Well if you commit murder you are an adult, but as far as signing contracts and such you aren't. So Who could or would insure someone that has no legal obligation to follow through?

But yeah, would you want a 12 year old giggling saying "I just saw a booby!" after examining you? Just kidding. It would be awkward no matter how mature he/she may be.

Marcia

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

Oh please, all you defenders of the 21 year olds. Are all 21 year olds arrogant? No, of course not. BUT: there is a LARGE demographic of middle class kids whose parents support them all the way through college. They party and have fun and think they know everything (typical feature of adolesence) Then they graduate college and enter the real world and find out how hard life is. There is an immaturity/arrogance there due to age and life experience. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean my characterization doesn't apply to a large segment of the college population. It's a natural-born arrogance.

And as far as MCAT scores and grades go: we need a few good researchers but we need a LOT of doctors with bedside manner, compassion, empathy and maturity. There is a critical shortage right now.

Poo poo to all the naysayers who deny the existence of arrogant 21 year olds.

And I really doubt OP was looking for some technical definition of non-trad. This forum is here to support anyone who has anything going on that makes seeking med school a little harder. Despite what a previous poster said, very very few medical students enter medical school with kids. Most aren't even married yet. It's definately a non-traditional lifestyle.

 

[mdille2]

Oh please, all you defenders of the 21 year olds. Are all 21 year olds arrogant? No, of course not. BUT: there is a LARGE demographic of middle class kids whose parents support them all the way through college. They party and have fun and think they know everything (typical feature of adolesence) Then they graduate college and enter the real world and find out how hard life is. There is an immaturity/arrogance there due to age and life experience. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean my characterization doesn't apply to a large segment of the college population. It's a natural-born arrogance.

And as far as MCAT scores and grades go: we need a few good researchers but we need a LOT of doctors with bedside manner, compassion, empathy and maturity. There is a critical shortage right now.

Poo poo to all the naysayers who deny the existence of arrogant 21 year olds.

And I really doubt OP was looking for some technical definition of non-trad. This forum is here to support anyone who has anything going on that makes seeking med school a little harder. Despite what a previous poster said, very very few medical students enter medical school with kids. Most aren't even married yet. It's definately a non-traditional lifestyle.

I don't we were defending anyone who is arrogant. Just saying that not all 21 year olds are, and not all nontrads are hard working, mature, and compassionate. I think there are many people in this big world that think they know everything, I just turn my ear the other direction if I don't like what they say.

Yes I agree nontrad is just that, anything that is out of the ordinary. Having children in med school is not the norm, but noone was bing mean stating what they think is trad or nontrad. Just giving there opinion.

Marcia

 

[QofQuimica]

I think immaturity is a better word to use when generalizing the 21 year old population. It implies they don't have the experience to handle adult situations appropriately. Arrogance implies that they think they are superior, and I don't think the majority of 21 year olds act that way, at least not around me.

And unfortunately, there are a lot of arrogant/immature people over 21, that exude arrogance by the way they convey their their life experiences vs. everyone else.

I don't think it's a bad thing at all for parents to support their kids in college - my parents did for my undergrad. If kids party and don't study, then it's a quick lesson in life and well deserved.

I mostly agree with this, but I would further amend the first part to say that the best description is that younger students are often inexperienced. I have had some students who I would call very mature, even at age 18 or 20. I mean that they were responsible, had a strong work ethic, and were financially independent. But most college-age people have not yet had many life experiences that older adults have had; hence my saying that they are inexperienced rather than immature or arrogant.

Some younger students also wrongly assume that they already know everything and that older people are basically useless. (Don't trust anyone over 30, right???) I think that this may be the point that Miesvandermom is trying to make? But there are plenty of working-age adults who also take the attitude that younger people or senior citizens as a group have nothing of value to contribute to us. Miesvandermom, I think what everyone is responding to is that it seems like you are unfairly stereotyping younger people rather than seeing them as individuals, some of whom may be privileged and arrogant, but most of whom are not. Being born into a middle-class family is not an automatic ticket to an adolescence of unbridled arrogance!

 

[shorrin]

Ironically enough, there is a 12 year old kid who is in med school at UIC, but he's in an MD/PhD position so he'll be 20 or 21 when he graduates.

Not to be picky but he's at University of Chicago (uofc), not University of Illinois (uic).

Uofc specializes in experimental cases, e.g. I went there (tee hee). But now I go to UIC and feel very well balanced .