DO ignorance sucks

[D4C]

Pre-Osteo is comparatively much more chill than Pre-Allo. I like it here.


Remaining a whiny, ignorant fekin high schooler apparently is what most of these people are majoring in.

To be fair, college is a time for book and social learning.

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[deleted407021]

Ahhh. Stop debating the educational requirements of midlevels in a pre med thread. We're trying to establish collective affirmation and your argument is throwing off our groove.

To be fair, college is a time for book and social learning.

Yes, but part of that social learning should be in changing behavior so that individuals are more adaptive, flexible and self reliant. Unfortunately, either some people are unwilling or their environments are not adequate for this learning to occur.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Is this sarcasm or are you really implying that one NP's opinion debunks an entire debate? PA training is superior to NP training by a long shot. This CAN be confirmed by simply comparing curriculums between the two programs. The fact that they somehow managed to become independent providers can be attributed entirely to politics.

Too simplistic. NP training is rigorous and they had a lot of clinical experience before going to NP school. You can't overlook that

 

[AlteredScale]

"OMG! B or W?!"
"Freshman year with one B. Am I screwed?"
"Will a second major make me look good?"

stfu

The two best threads today.

 

[radkat101]

Too simplistic. NP training is rigorous and they had a lot of clinical experience before going to NP school. You can't overlook that

I'm not overlooking the amount of training/clinical experience, I'm paying particular attention to the TYPE of training they receive, as well as the standards that are set for them. Getting into PA school is harder than getting into some medical schools, and everyone will be caught up with clinical experience at some point. PA's use a model that is much more similar to what we as medical students follow than NPs. Heck, I even studied for my last anatomy practical right alongside the PA students. An NP could be at home during this time getting their degree online without ever stepping foot in an anatomy lab. I don't think one necessarily works harder, or is better than the other, but in practice, the PA's understanding of the fundamentals of disease is going to be more in line (though not nearly as extensive) with ours. Outside of training, I will agree that NPs have managed to attain a practice environment that isn't that much different than the PAs.

 

[GUH]

Too simplistic. NP training is rigorous and they had a lot of clinical experience before going to NP school. You can't overlook that

18-month online degree

rigorous

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I'm not overlooking the amount of training/clinical experience, I'm paying particular attention to the TYPE of training they receive, as well as the standards that are set for them. Getting into PA school is harder than getting into some medical schools, and everyone will be caught up with clinical experience at some point. PA's use a model that is much more similar to what we as medical students follow than NPs. Heck, I even studied for my last anatomy practical right alongside the PA students. An NP could be at home during this time getting their degree online without ever stepping foot in an anatomy lab. I don't think one necessarily works harder, or is better than the other, but in pr]
[QUOTE="GUH, post: 15819525, membe

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I hate dealing with DO ignorance now that I'm probably going to a DO school. It's especially worse because I work at Duke, which is a huge academic institution. My other co workers who are also in the pre med stage (but have been accepted to MD schools), refer to DO schools as "DO programs", not just medical school. Some of them even think that there is a hierarchy in hospitals that goes MD>DO>PA>NP>the rest

How pervasive is this mentality? I keep hearing that it's confined to the "old MD residency directors" but these are my contemporaries and potentially colleagues that old these ill and nasty views.

Only jerks might be like that, but many of those people will be humbled along the way. Going to a health sciences school all I can say is that I have more respect for all the other professions (DPM, DMD, OD, PharmD, DVM, etc.) now than I ever did, and I can only imagine that respect growing more and more as clinical years come. That's not to say I didn't have respect for them before, but I always thought MD/DO was the most hard training and knowledge-base. That is far from the truth. We are all expected to have a great level of mastery and all programs are hard.

 

[DrBowtie]

Wanted to make another point about clinical hours with this whole NP vs PA thing.

Found a NP online who wrote this and its very accurate. Really puts down the clinical hour thing:

" I think it is important to point out that NP’s have all of the same medical privileges as you pointed out for the PA. We diagnose, treat, and have prescriptive authority. In fact, in NYS a nurse practitioner is an independent provider, where a PA must work under the direct supervision of a physician. Somehow the term “nurse” in the title of the practitioner seems to allow for the belief that we do not perform these services, when in fact, we not only perform them, but are able to legally and professional perform them without a supervising doctor. We do require a collaborative agreement with a physician, and rightfully so. Isn’t collaboration what medicine is all about anyway? So please be sure gentle reader that a you understand: a NP likely has had multiple years of clinical experience prior to entering into an accreditation program, providing him/her with an outstanding knowledge base clinically. We are INDEPENDENT providers. This needs to be pointed out as a distinct difference between an NP and a PA.
Every PA I know has an excellent ability to diagnose and treat. I am blessed to work with several that are outstanding, so there should be no concern that the care provided by a PA is less than that of a NP; they simply are required to have supervision and more oversight in their daily delivery of care."

So there you have it. Nurse model and medical model and clinical hours debates debunked. NP=PA if you say otherwise you're uniformed

Your biases are showing.

You do realize practice rights correlate more to lobbying power than medical competency?

I'm not quite sure the hours thing is debunked. Should hours doing different jobs count? RNs are not diagnosing. Their training and scope are different.

 

[TactFR44]

I'm not overlooking the amount of training/clinical experience, I'm paying particular attention to the TYPE of training they receive, as well as the standards that are set for them. Getting into PA school is harder than getting into some medical schools, and everyone will be caught up with clinical experience at some point. PA's use a model that is much more similar to what we as medical students follow than NPs. Heck, I even studied for my last anatomy practical right alongside the PA students. An NP could be at home during this time getting their degree online without ever stepping foot in an anatomy lab. I don't think one necessarily works harder, or is better than the other, but in practice, the PA's understanding of the fundamentals of disease is going to be more in line (though not nearly as extensive) with ours. Outside of training, I will agree that NPs have managed to attain a practice environment that isn't that much different than the PAs.

I was reading through this deal. He doesn't get it. Totally respect the PAs more than NP. Medical Model does not equal nursing model. It's not rocket science to understand that. Two entirely different things. Some nurses I worked with did their deal part time and online. Compare that with the rigors of PA school.

 

[hallowmann]

Removed ... not related to topic of thread. I don't want to derail this more.

 

[deleted407021]

The two best threads today.

And what's with all the IA and misdemeanor threads in pre allo? That one Tiawanistu guy - or whatever his name is - posts about one thread a month whining about some trouble he's gotten into and how it will affect his app.

 

[AlteredScale]

And what's with all the IA and misdemeanor threads in pre allo? That one Tiawanistu guy - or whatever his name is - posts about one thread a month whining about some trouble he's gotten into and how it will affect his app.

Yeah seriously! The late applicants are extra neurotic this year. There's another one on their...JoyKim#### or something and he/she is positing the craziest questions!

 

[Jnasty08]

NP's certainly have more autonomy than PA's. In the emergency departments I work in, while the NP is still a mid level provider they are able to work up and disposition a patient how they see fit. The PA however has to present any patients they see to an attending ER physician to sign off on the plan and disposition first. Some attendings can be less understanding and trusting of the PA's judgement and will insist on evaluating the patient themselves rather than relying on the PA. It can be a bit of a frustrating situation for some PA's but that upis how it goes.

 

[cabinbuilder]

I hate dealing with DO ignorance now that I'm probably going to a DO school. It's especially worse because I work at Duke, which is a huge academic institution. My other co workers who are also in the pre med stage (but have been accepted to MD schools), refer to DO schools as "DO programs", not just medical school. Some of them even think that there is a hierarchy in hospitals that goes MD>DO>PA>NP>the rest

How pervasive is this mentality? I keep hearing that it's confined to the "old MD residency directors" but these are my contemporaries and potentially colleagues that old these ill and nasty views.

When you are out there taking care of patients and making 6 figures what other people think isn't going to matter. What matters is you take care of the patient's properly and they leave your office happy and better.

 

[Corpsman]

My parent is an NP and went to one of the best universities in the world to get that degree. It was very rigorous I assure you. My parent teaches your medical PA and fixes their mistakes. My other parent (MD) complains night and day about the dumb PAs that my parent has to work with. Nice people though. Comes down to this: PAs and NPs are equal some are good some are bad in both fields. Training is very similar (soon NPs need a doctorate not a masters. Yes they will be doctor nurses). What it comes down to is mostly experience. And NPs have better practice rights. Saying PAs are better is silly and simplistic and wrong.

The initial statement was not a discussion of practice rights, but who is trained better.

The person with a thorough background in the sciences completing 120+ credit hours in two years including 2000+ clinical hours at a minimum.
or
The person who completes 40-50 credit hours with a ¼ of it being nursing theory fluff part time over two years with 500-750 clinical hours.

Yes, some hospitals prefer NPs for autonomous practice rights in the 18 states that allow it in an effort to not hire collaborating/supervising physicians to save money; however that trend is starting to shift as some compliance boards are not credentialing FNPs to work in the ER or as hospitalists as it is technically outside their primary care training. If they are an acute care NP they can’t see peds, if they are peds acute care NPs they can’t see adults.

A PA can see anyone, and in the course of their training would meet the credit and clinical hours to qualify for certification as a:
Family Nurse Practitioner AND
Adult Acute Care Nurse Practitioner AND
Pediatric Acute Care Nurse Practitioner AND
RN First Assist AND
½ the clinical hours for Psych AND Nurse Midwife based on their elective rotations.

Anyone who disagrees that PA>NP is simply uninformed.

 

[costales]

Meh. PAs rock. But take a look at this:

Patient Nina Pham is hugged by Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, outside of National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Md., Friday, Oct. 24, 2014. / AP

 

[touchpause13]

Let me share some advice that was shared with us during lecture the other day:

"No one cares if you are a DO. They care if you're dumb. Don't be dumb."

 

[el_duderino]

That's excellent.

 

[RLU1223]

Let me share some advice that was shared with us during lecture the other day:

"No one cares if you are a DO. They care if you're dumb. Don't be dumb."

Best advice I've heard in a while. I'll try not to be dumb!

 

[PlasticBag]

A few months ago I was looking for an OMM specialist to shadow and I found one who solicited tips (!!!) from patients (according to numerous patient reviews on the internet). I shadowed someone else instead and that DO was absolutely amazing. And didn't ask for tips.

 

[NontradCA]

Yes, I agree.

I see a touch of it in some of major academic institutions in NYC as well. Such is life.

Try not living in NY . Midwest pays more, is cheaper, and extremely DO friendly.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

[QUOTE="radkat101, pos

 

[RTC19]

Meh. PAs rock. But take a look at this:

Patient Nina Pham is hugged by Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, outside of National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Md., Friday, Oct. 24, 2014. / AP

 

[costales]

Online education: this is a nonsense point that people bring up against DOs also. We aren't talking about online degrees. This same logic could be used to say MD>DO. If you think that you're silly.

Which DO schools have an online program, or did you just make that one up?

 

[costales]

A few months ago I was looking for an OMM specialist to shadow and I found one who solicited tips (!!!) from patients (according to numerous patient reviews on the internet). I shadowed someone else instead and that DO was absolutely amazing. And didn't ask for tips.

I bet he adds an automatic 20% for parties of 6 or more.

 

[Roxas]

Ugh so much ignorance. So little time. I also really don't want to argue about this as its kind of derailing (although it was brought up in the op).

Let me educate you all. If you want to remain ignorant that's on you. After this I'm done with this nonsense.

PA>NP or NP>PA is wrong and silly. MD>PA is wrong also but that's another story. I'll stay on topic. My point is saying someone is better then someone else is inherently wrong.

NPs are more specalists, more indepent, and start off on the nursing model but are on the medical side of medicine. NPs prescribe medicine. To say they are still on the nursing model is ludacris. They diagnosis and treat that's medical model if you ask me.

PAs are generalists. PAs receive an education that is more similar to medical school (go to school right after college) and that doesn't make them better.

That's a good general overview.

Clinical hours: NPs receive more specalized clinical hours while PAs are more general. Sheer number doesn't give a complete story. Also NPs were once RNs and have loads of clinical hours. They might not have been in the same role but they still learn a lot from those experiences. Its a wash in this area.

Online education: this is a nonsense point that people bring up against DOs also. We aren't talking about online degrees. This same logic could be used to say MD>DO. If you think that you're silly.

International rights: NPs far more recognized

Medical practice: NPs have more autonomy.

Also:

Surgery/em PA has an advantage


Peds/obgyn/psych/primary care NP has an advantage.

Academics (administration research for ex) NP/DNP has an advantage.

Not to mention NPs soon have to get a doctorate. Yes they will be doctors.

Also the biggest thing that differiante PAs and NPs is that individual person and there experience.

But I don't want to have this discussion none of us are interested in this route. What's the point. And this is PRE DO not PRE MD. We don't discriminate against people we judge them by the quality of work and them as a person. If you disagree with that go over to pre allo

I find it amusing that you opt to "educate" all of us with nothing more than conjecture. Not saying all your points are entirely off base, but there's got to be a better approach.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Which DO schools have an online program, or did you just make that one up?

Which DO schools have an online program, or did you just make that one up?

Have you seriously never heard of osteopaths?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I find it amusing that you opt to "educate" all of us with nothing more than conjecture. Not saying all your points are entirely off base, but there's got to be a better approach.

Well I'm just trying to educate people about NPs and PAs. Let's face it the difference is small. Trying to explain the differences is honestly tough. But I do know a lot about it and can explain the differences.

It just bugs me to no end when someone says one is better then the other. Common misconception sure but I tell it like it actually is

 

[el_duderino]

Have you seriously never heard of osteopaths?

Wait, what?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Wait, what?

Online DOs schools exist. They are called diplomats of osteopathy. DOMP. Called osteopaths which is why we don't like that word. Doesnt meant that DOs who went to actual medical schools are bad. Same goes with NPs. Cant use those schools to smear all DOs or NPs.

 

[Lawgiver]

dont forget trolls do not only exists on on the internet.

 

[67552931811]

Online DOs schools exist. They are called diplomats of osteopathy. DOMP. Called osteopaths which is why we don't like that word. Doesnt meant that DOs who went to actually medical schools are bad. Same goes with NPs. Can use those schools to smear all DOs or NPs.

There are 0 online DO granting schools in the United States. Overseas DO schools are NOT the same. A DO from the US is NOT the same as a DO from Europe, etc..

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

There are 0 online DO granting schools in the United States. Overseas DO schools are NOT the same. You seriously cannot be this ignorant.

Yes those schools are overseas I know that. That doesn't change my point though

 

[el_duderino]

Yes those schools are overseas I know that. That doesn't change my point though

Yeah it does. Your point is nonsensical.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Yeah it does. Your point is nonsensical.

I'll make it simple.

Online NP schools don't discredit NPs as online DO schools don't discredit DOs.

Makes sense? Good. People gotta stop slandering their peers. Don't like it when people do it with DOs don't like it when people do it with NPs or PAs or RNs. You will always find me sticking up for everyone.

 

[el_duderino]

I'll make it simple.

Online NP schools don't discredit NPs as online DO schools don't discredit DOs.

Makes sense? Good.

You said the online schools are not only not DO (they are DOMP), but you also said they are nonexistent in their country.

So .....

 

[D4C]

Yes those schools are overseas I know that. That doesn't change my point though

DO = Doctor of Osteopathic medicine
DOMP = Diplomat of Osteopathy (by your own words)

These two are not comparable by any stretch of imagination. And as stated previously, there are a total of zero online DO schools period - not arguable. A DOMP does not a doctor make.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You said the online schools are not only not DO (they are DOMP), but you also said they are nonexistent in their country.

So .....

Its still regarded to as osteopathy. Still osteopathic schools.

 

[el_duderino]

People were talking about DOs, not "osteopaths."

There are no online DO programs, period. There are online NP programs.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

DO = Doctor of Osteopathic medicine
DOMP = Diplomat of Osteopathy (by your own words)

These two are not comparable by any stretch of imagination. And as stated previously, there are a total of zero online DO schools period - not arguable. A DOMP does not a doctor make.

DOMP is diploma of osteopathy Manuel practioner. DO originally meant diplomat of osteopathy actually. If we are gonna get technical.

The fact that they aren't comparable is my point.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

People were talking about DOs, not "osteopaths."

There are no online DO programs, period. There are online NP programs.

There are online osteopathic programs though.

 

[el_duderino]

There are online osteopathic programs though.

There are no online DO programs. None. I have no idea what you're attempting to accomplish here, but it's failing miserably.

 

[Roxas]

People were talking about DOs, not "osteopaths."

There are no online DO programs, period. There are online NP programs.

This.

Osteopath =/= osteopathic physician. Hence the reason for the modern avoidance of the word osteopath by US DO schools. There are no online programs by which to become an osteopathic physician. I don't see why this is so hard.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

There are no online DO programs. None. I have no idea what you're attempting to accomplish here, but it's failing miserably.

In Europe there are online osteopathic schools. That's why in france DOs can only manipulate because there osteopaths only learn that. This doesn't make a DO who goes to KCOM a bad doctor nor does this mean MD>DO.

My point is to draw a parallel between DOs and NPs to explain why NPs aren't worse then PAs.

 

[el_duderino]

In Europe there are online osteopathic schools. That's why in france DOs can only manipulate because there osteopaths only learn that. This doesn't make a DO who goes to KCOM a bad doctor nor does this mean MD>DO.

My point is to draw a parrel between DOs and NPs to explain why NPs aren't worse then PAs.

I can't even. How's your application process going?

 

[Chubbs Peterson]

In Europe there are online osteopathic schools. That's why in france DOs can only manipulate because there osteopaths only learn that. This doesn't make a DO who goes to KCOM a bad doctor nor does this mean MD>DO.

My point is to draw a parrel between DOs and NPs to explain why NPs aren't worse then PAs.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I can't even. How's your application process going?

Good u?

 

[el_duderino]

Good u?

Seems to have gone pretty well, considering.......

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Seems to have gone pretty well, considering.......

Considering what?