DO in a MD Gen Surg Spot (2007) - how to do it

[THE O]

I am a DO PGY-1 with a categorical general surgery spot...heres what I did..

1. boards - do well and make sure to take both step 1 and 2 before the match
I got 214 step one and 224 on step 2

2. Apply to many, many programs, go on many many interviews. I applied in
2006.... to 108 programs....went on 18 interviews....didn't match...took a
prelim year.....Why I didn't match first round.

a. Didn't have step 2 (this will come in later in the story)
b. DO Factor
c. Letters from people no one knew.

3. I am currently a prelim spot (UMASS)..... reapplied to 112 programs....went on 20 interviews, was offered about 40... was going to
go on 6 more when I was offered a PGY-2 categorical position at one of the
programs were I was interviewing for a PGY-1 spot.... (stamford hosp/Columbia U)

Why I think I got a spot

#1 - threw out a large net.... and applied to a wide range of
programs with a good distribution of competativeness. (KEY)

#2 - Equalizer... Went to an MD program and got good recs
as an intern... When you are a DO you need to be
"vouched" for to stack up against MD applicants.

#3 (more like 2b) Phone calls and connections...make a big
difference... although I didn't have anyone call stamford...
I had phone calls made to other places that I felt pretty
sure that I would match at as a PGY-1 categorical....

#4 - Decent Boards

#5 - most important - LUCK!!! - you are more likely to get lucky
if you apply to many rather than a few programs.


This whole process was expensive and stressful....but I am glad (which
everyone is when things work out) that I took the plunge.

open to questions.

Dave (PCOM 2006)

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[emlopez2]

Hello. Im currently a MSI student at NYCOM. I know its early but Im interested in some type of surgery. You mentioned taking Step I and Step II prior to applying. Ive heard thus far only to take Step I unless you scored low then take Step II. Is this not necessarily true then. Also when taking the Prelim Surgery position, did it set you back a year or did it get counted as one of the five years for most surgery programs.

 

[Winged Scapula]

It sounds as if he was offered a PGY2 spot for next year which means he didn't lose a year.

However, he was smart in that he didn't assume that would be the case, and applied for PGY1 positions.

 

[Strongbow]

THE O, what is your advice about MD/DO? I've been accepted to DMU, and will hopefully be accepted at Wayne this month. I am pretty sure I want to do a competitive residency(I'm thinking surgery right now). I get the feeling that DMU would provide a better first 2 years, but Wayne would be better for 3, 4, and residency options. Thanks.

 

[joedo]

Congrats dave.
Just wondering: why didn't you apply to any osteo positions?

 

[THE O]

To answer the last few poster...

1. The guy that asked if my prelim year counted....the answer is YES ..
you can complete your general surgery in 2 different institutions....so
my PGY-1 year counted...it also allowed me to apply to both PGY-1 and PGY-2 spots

2. The DMU vs Wayne state guy....

Go to Wayne state if you get in.... If you are going into a competative specialty going to an MD school is helpful...DO school may prove limiting....
The first 2 years are the same everywhere...the last 3-4 and the residency options are what matter....

3. Why I didn't apply to osteo programs...

Options....
For the most part your quality as a surgeon is individual... I know terrible surgeons that trained at MGH and the Brigham...and great surgeons that trained in DO programs... so that wasn't the concern...

BUT....if you want to get into a fellowship...it is hard to do out of a DO program... now.... are there DO trained surgeons that got into decent fellowships yes... but usually they are usually the exception and they go into
fellowships like trauma, cardiovascular...that are not filling...

but everything is possible....

You are quite honestly much better positioned to get a fellowship out of an
acgme accredited program...that is the standard.... even a job...
people feel comfortable with standards.... so if you go off the standard
you have to put foward a lot of extra effort to get what someone who
is the same as you who did do the standard thing would have to do...

I realized that with the whole DO thing....

I just wanted to have as many options open to me as possible...

ONE quick other note about prelim years and transitional years...if you want
to get into a surgical acgme program and you are a DO do a surgical internship year at an acgme program.... also apply to pgy 1 and 2 spots...
apply widley...apply everywhere....

osteopathic intership years won't help you....unless you are worried about licencing...

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Surgery at Columbia U, very nice

 

[cheech23]

the O,
first off, thanks for the helpful advice. i'm currently a 3rd year DO, really interested in surgery, and would like to get into an MD surgical residency. couple quick questions:

1. how does one go about applying for the acgme surgical internships? (will we discover this once ERAS is available to us?)

2. how many of the 100 or so programs you initially applied to included these internships spots?

3. i'm starting to set up 4th-yr GS sub-I's. should i not even do any at DO programs if i've got my sights set on getting into an MD program?...and therefore do all my GS sub-I's at MD programs?

4. is there such a thing as applying to DO programs as "safeties"? yknow, in case MD programs don't even offer a prelim spot...

these are just a couple off the top of my head, but i really appreciate your time and help in getting your experience out there. it's kinda inspirational, actually. congrats and best of luck.

 

[RajMahal]

dave,

it's raj from dmu. we interviewed together at UCONN. congrats on getting a spot. good luck!

Raj

I am a DO PGY-1 with a categorical general surgery spot...heres what I did..

1. boards - do well and make sure to take both step 1 and 2 before the match
I got 214 step one and 224 on step 2

2. Apply to many, many programs, go on many many interviews. I applied in
2006.... to 108 programs....went on 18 interviews....didn't match...took a
prelim year.....Why I didn't match first round.

a. Didn't have step 2 (this will come in later in the story)
b. DO Factor
c. Letters from people no one knew.

3. I am currently a prelim spot (UMASS)..... reapplied to 112 programs....went on 20 interviews, was offered about 40... was going to
go on 6 more when I was offered a PGY-2 categorical position at one of the
programs were I was interviewing for a PGY-1 spot.... (stamford hosp/Columbia U)

Why I think I got a spot

#1 - threw out a large net.... and applied to a wide range of
programs with a good distribution of competativeness. (KEY)

#2 - Equalizer... Went to an MD program and got good recs
as an intern... When you are a DO you need to be
"vouched" for to stack up against MD applicants.

#3 (more like 2b) Phone calls and connections...make a big
difference... although I didn't have anyone call stamford...
I had phone calls made to other places that I felt pretty
sure that I would match at as a PGY-1 categorical....

#4 - Decent Boards

#5 - most important - LUCK!!! - you are more likely to get lucky
if you apply to many rather than a few programs.


This whole process was expensive and stressful....but I am glad (which
everyone is when things work out) that I took the plunge.

open to questions.

Dave (PCOM 2006)

 

[RajMahal]

Hello. Im currently a MSI student at NYCOM. I know its early but Im interested in some type of surgery. You mentioned taking Step I and Step II prior to applying. Ive heard thus far only to take Step I unless you scored low then take Step II. Is this not necessarily true then. Also when taking the Prelim Surgery position, did it set you back a year or did it get counted as one of the five years for most surgery programs.

take them all. i was told at one place that i initially didn't get an interview at that i was "weeded out" because i didn't take step 2 CS

take them. small investment, big returns.

 

[THE O]

Briefly,

1. I did a DO Sub-I at my school to get a chairman's letter.
2. DO programs match before MD programs so you will match in your DO program and have to withdraw from the MD match.
3. I got the prelim year in the scramble....It may be a good idea to interview for prelims and good places....prelims are best done at University affiliated hospitals...faculy has connections.
4. Always keep your options open

 

[blackdiamond]

wow 18 interviews and you didn't match. That is really abnormal, right? I was told that although there is no safe number of interviews to match, anything more than 15 is virtually assured. If you don't mind me asking, what were some of the programs you interviewed at?

 

[beastmaster]

Why I didn't match first round.
a. Didn't have step 2 (this will come in later in the story)
b. DO Factor
c. Letters from people no one knew.

You still haven't explained the step2 involvement. Are you sure it wasn't your below-the-mean step1 score that was a bigger problem?

 

[THE O]

To reply -

I know a good amount of people who didn't match despite alot of interviews..
first round I only listed 14 spots...

1 point below the mean wasn't a big deal...as much as the lack of step 2//
214 last year was 53% (converstion chart) .... people have matched with 205s and 210...

average academic prog (accepted) USMLE 218
Average community prog USMLE (accepted) 209
(2005-2006??)

THE O

 

[HANDsurgeon]

Hi...I read your post...congratulations on matching...my story...

4th year at NSUCOM...didn't match at UMDNJ (DO surgery program) nor at 3 MD programs today...

Passed both COMLEX 1 and 2 with average scores...failed USMLE step 1, but retaking it soon, along with USMLE step 2...tomorrow, for scramble, should I try to get a prelim surg. spot somwhere, and then reapply like you did, hopefully with passing USMLE scores? or do a rotating internship, 1 which is being held for me until late tomorrow afternoon at UMDNJ? ( i could jump into a PGY2 position there next year if someone drops out and/or to other, select DO programs, since the vast majority suck, and/or reapply to categorical MD surgery programs)

 

[LovelyRita]

Hi...I read your post...congratulations on matching...my story...

4th year at NSUCOM...didn't match at UMDNJ (DO surgery program) nor at 3 MD programs today...

Passed both COMLEX 1 and 2 with average scores...failed USMLE step 1, but retaking it soon, along with USMLE step 2...tomorrow, for scramble, should I try to get a prelim surg. spot somwhere, and then reapply like you did, hopefully with passing USMLE scores? or do a rotating internship, 1 which is being held for me until late tomorrow afternoon at UMDNJ? ( i could jump into a PGY2 position there next year if someone drops out and/or to other, select DO programs, since the vast majority suck, and/or reapply to categorical MD surgery programs)

Yep, do the TRI. That way you get your DO internship requirements under your belt. And things may work out at that program especially if you are a strong intern and they want to keep you around!! Meanwhile, contact other DO (and MD) programs you're interested in NOW and tell them you're looking for a PGY2 spot. That way your name is in the books if they lose someone or get funded for another spot, etc.

This is what I did, and ironically, and bizarrely, a contract at a program that I was interested in a PGY2 spot at (last year) but am no longer interested in landed in my mailbox last week. Meanwhile, I did TRI and got myself a spot at the program that I'm doing internship at, and I am h-a-p-p-y!!

 

[RajMahal]

3. i'm starting to set up 4th-yr GS sub-I's. should i not even do any at DO programs if i've got my sights set on getting into an MD program?...and therefore do all my GS sub-I's at MD programs?

do sub-i's at places you're interested in, bust your hump, and you will do well.

i did 4 sub-i's at MD programs. They were: UConn, SUNY Upstate, and University of New Mexico x 2. I initially didn't get an interview at UNM, and was later told it was because i didn't take step 2 cs. My step 1 was above average, and step 2 was slightly below average.

long story short, i went to UNM with a good attitude, busted my hump, made a good impression and met the right people. I matched categorical general surgery there for next year, as part of a couple, (my fiancee is doing peds).

you will have your work cut out for you, but find some programs that are DO friendly and rotate there, work hard, and score well on boards. good luck.