DO match process: restrictive?

[community]

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Hello to all of you current 3rd/4th year DO students. I am currently considering attending an osteopathic school over an allopathic school and have been researching the available residency programs. It seems as though there aren't as many osteo programs (in OB/GYN) in the NY/NJ/DC/CT area as I would have hoped. Although the number of osteopathic residency programs in these areas are scarce, what is the likelihood that I would be able to match in an allopathic program? Would I be required to take the USMLE 1 for the allopathic match? Do you think that I should attend an allopathic school (over a DO school) if given the opportunity to increase my liklihood of placing in a residency program in these areas? In addition, if I was to try and match in both a DO and allopathic program, how does the process work? I would appreciate any info you can provide since I am clueless and just starting out in my medical career.

 

[acurarte]

If you want it you will get it.. Especially OBGYN (not that it is not competetive, but it certainly not the most competetive).... If you decide on the D.O. route, I recommend taking the USMLE to make you more competetive, but you do not have to.

Good luck!

 

[Mr. happy clown guy]

My advice is very simple...attend the medical school that you fit with, one that you can afford and enojoyed on your visits. It is VERY LIKELY you may change your mind regarding residency choice sometime in your medical school career (there has to be a research article somewhere regarding this common fact). To base medical school choice, solely on post-graduate opportunities in a particular field may be "putting the cart in front of the horse".

I changed my mind twice between my 1-3 years.

 

[Careofme]

How do you know which residencies are both AOA/AMA approved?? Is there a master list of these combined programs someplace?

Do these combined programs mean that they satisfy the AOA's "transitional year/internship" requirement??

I'm confused.

Careofme

 

[jhug]

try checking out the recent match list for the school you might attend-- that may shed a lot of light on where you could go!

 

[miami]

I am a MSIV DO student and I would suggest that if you can get into a US MD school you should go for it over a DO school. The hard truth is that you will have more opportunities and less discrimination and your life will be generally easier. Don't get me wrong, you can match into a good MD residency from a DO school (assuming you did well in med school) but you will have to work extra hard and still some residencies will not except you because you are a DO. I also agree with the previous post stating that you may change your mind (I did) and want to go into another field of medicine. If you want to go into Surgery, Rads, Derm, etc. you are crazy to attend a DO school over US MD school. This is just my opinion. If you are a premed my advice would be to apply to both and if you get into a US MD school give them your deposit and never look back. Hope this helps

Miami

 

[David511]

yeah, I'm with miami...always take the easy way out, screw the DO route and all it's wonderful philosophies/practices...

after all, who wants to work hard to be a doctor???

-d

ps: served with a side of pipin' hot sarcasm

 

[community]

Thank you all for your responses. I guess I have a lot to think about. If I was to attend the allopathic school over the osteopathic school then I would be living in a different state from my husband for a very long time (he will be in graduate school). At the same time, I don't want to have to worry about proving myself anymore than necessary as a physician which might be the case if I attend the osteopathic school. I guess that either way I will be able to practice medicine which is the most important factor for me. I'll be praying really hard as I consider all of these factors.

 

[doughboy]

Whatever....go MD if it is possible. Like you said, if you don't want to go through your career proving yourself than don't go DO. Yes, it is possible to obtain good residencies AOA or AMA as a DO, but the honest truth is that it is harder. Most 4th years like myself who wanted an MD residency as a DO, got them but with hardwork and determination on our part with no help from our schools. No philosophy is going to make you the doctor you will be, it will be based on your own character and your dedication. Just don't close any doors for yourself. I'm not putting down the DO profession just stating that being an MD puts you in the majority and everyone knows that the majority rules no matter what. Bottomline...get advice and info from 4th year DO's for the real truth since we have gone through the entire process.

 

[bones]

Sounds like we're all about dishing out the advice around here... I'll tell you what- I go to KCOM. I know some unhappy people here that wish they were MD's. I also know others (myself included) that came here because we wanted the tools of the trade, or the philosophy was more to our liking- and on the whole I'd say we are happy.

At any DO school you get both types of people... its unfortunate. hurts the DO profession by bringing in those that don't belong and it drags down those that wish they were MD's as well.

My advice to all is not to apply to DO schools just because you have bad grades or you like the location of one of the DO schools. You'll be a DO for the rest of your life- so think hard about it. Make sure the school is a good fit and you don't mind being different from the mainstream - because you WILL be unless you fight VERY hard to conform.

If you want to be like joe schmoe MD OB doc or neurosurgeon down the street, it IS a bit of an uphill battle.

If on the other hand, you like the idea of integrating holistic medicine into the core of your practice and learning cranial for your new babies, then maybe osteopathy has something to offer... if fact, you'll have a whole bunch of skills that virtually no other OB docs have- the very reason why our OB/OMM gurus at KCOM get referrals from all over the country.

In any case I'd do some research on cranial osteopathy, and maybe watch some of it in action on newborns- see if its something you like. You can pick it up as an MD (through week-long seminars and what-not) but if you ever want to really master it, ya gotta learn OMM throughout your medical education. If cranial is not appealing, and you're ho-hum about 'osteopathic philosophy' do yourself and your potential DO school a favor and get the MD like the others said. I'm happy I chose DO.

Good luck on your decision.

bones

 

[miami]

"If I was to attend the allopathic school over the osteopathic school then I would be living in a different state from my husband for a very long time"

This changes everything. If I were in your shoes, I would attend a DO school near my spouse over a MD school in another state. I started med school with a long distance relationship (we were dating almost 2 years) and it did not last past the 2nd half of my 1st year. The point is that it is very tough to have a long distance relationship in med school (although not impossible). Also, in my opinion, it is not worth it to go hundreds of miles away from your husband to attend a MD school when you can get a great education, equal to MD training, with plenty of great opportunities at a DO school and not sacrifice your life in the process. The bottom line is this:

DO school with husband > MD school without husband
(in my opinion)

I do not envy your decision, however.

Hope this helps,

Miami

 

[miami]

By the way,

Most (>90%) of the DO students do not share the beliefs that Mr. bones expressed on his post. You do not have to think DO is the only way to go. If that was the case, DO schools would have about 5 students rather than 180 in each class (maybe 10 at KCOM). Most DO students believe in most of the DO philosophy, but more importantly they want to be physicians and that is why they went to a DO school. Also, don't get scared off by this "cranial medicine" stuff. Even most of the DO's think it is quackery. Hope this helps

Miami

 

[GoForIt]

•••quote:•••if I was to try and match in both a DO and allopathic program, how does the process work? ••••You apply to AOA and/or AMA programs with your ranking of each program. The AOA programs will announce its ranking in February of your 4th year. If you are matched, then you are bounded with the AOA program. The AMA programs will announce its ranking about a month later. If you are not bounded by any AOA program and if you are matched, then you go with the AMA program.

In the event you are not matched with any AOA or AMA program, you can get the hold the AOA and AMA unmatched program listing and reapply (scramble) for an open slot.

Some DO students prefer to do AMA residency programs and do not apply for any AOA program at all. However, there are six states that require AOA intership as a requirement to practice medicine in that state. Hence, that could be one consideration.

Hope that help.

 

[Careofme]

GoForIt-

Thanks for the info. My follow-up question to that is what about those programs that are both AOA & AMA approved. Won't those satisfy the AOA internship year requirement while also doing an AMA residency?

If you do only apply to the AMA match and get matched, how hard is it to convince the AOA that the first year (internship) should be counted by the AOA as well?

Careofme

 

[GoForIt]

•••quote:•••those programs that are both AOA & AMA approved. Won't those satisfy the AOA internship year requirement while also doing an AMA residency? ••••Only if you apply the AOA program.

•••quote:•••If you do only apply to the AMA match and get matched, how hard is it to convince the AOA that the first year (internship) should be counted by the AOA as well? ••••Very difficult, I would not count on it.

 

[Detroit Mick]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by GoForIt:
•However, there are six states that require AOA intership as a requirement to practice medicine in that state. Hence, that could be one consideration.•••••And what states would that be?

So if a DO student does an AMA residency, he/she can't be licensed to practice in those six states?

 

[Sweaty Paul]

Actually there are only 5 states that require the osteopathic rotating internship:
Ohio, Michigan, Florida, Pennsylvania, and Louisiana. Also, if you don't complete a traditional osteopathic rotating internship you will not be allowed to be the chairperson of any academic dept. or dean of an osteopathic medical school.

The above said, there are ways to get special conseideration for your allopathic residency to be counted as a traditional rotating internship. It is allowed for by Resolution 42 of the AOA. You can read this resolution by going to the AOA web page: <a href="http://www.aoa-net.org." target="_blank">www.aoa-net.org.</a> Somewhere on the page you can find a copy of resolution 42 and read it for yourself on its requirements.

Careofme med school with spouse is tough enough, without spouse could be worse. The end result is that you will be a physician. The doors, though not all open entirely are opening to osteopaths, and with quality individuals in new places doors will continue to open.
Good luck.

Sweaty Paul
KCOM

 

[jrich15]

I believe the five states are Penn., Fl,Oklahoma, West Virginia, and Michigan. Until recently, one could only gain licensure in LA through another state ie Texas or Miss or through passage of the USMLE and completion of residency and certification. I don't know if that certification has to be through the AOA or AGME.

 

[bones]

miami,

I believe you missed my point. your earlier post said she should go to an MD school over a DO school without a thought. My response to that is DO education offers something that you cannot get at MD schools, IF this is something you seek in your practice. If, like you, she doesn't care about osteopathy (as you state is the case for 90+% of osteopathic doctors), I would say she is better off with the MD- especially since she has already been accepted. Though it is entirely possible to get a good MD residency via a DO school, why bother with all the extra work if at an MD school it would be an easy transition? If this is where she is, she will need to decide whether the extra work is worth the 4 extra years living with her husband (I suspect it may be for an OB residency, which wouldn't be as hard to get as say- neurosurgery at a top hospital).

On the other hand, if she likes the primary care approach to OB and the idea of OMM on mothers and/or babies there are many good tools we have that our MD contemporaries don't- but you need to take the time to really learn how to use them. Many of the DO OB/GYN residencies will emphasize this approach.

didn't mean to ruffle your feathers miami. 😀

peace,
bones

 

[doughboy]

I don't think OB-GYN docs do cranial on their babies. You would think the pediatrician and neonatalogist would do that.(if they even learned cranial that is) If you are really interested in OB-GYN, I would highly recommend going the MD route if you want to get a better shot at the MD programs which I believe are stronger in quality overall. If you are interested in family practice than having OMM skills is a benefit but besides that I don't see any differences. Bones, I applaud your enthusiasm for osteopathy...but please, do you really think the majority of DO's really wanted to be DO's and not MD's? If so, then how come so few DO's even practice OMM, some don't even know any at all. ?????

 

[Test Boy]

I believe that Kirksville in comparison to other DO schools, has a much higher proportion of students that chose to be DOs and thus would want to incorporate OMM into their practice. I'm sure their OMM curriculum is far superior to other DO schools. On the other hand, schools like PCOM, Nova, and others are notorious for their lousy OMM curriculum and might explain some of the comments made here.

 

[Mr. happy clown guy]

MI, Fla, OK, WV, PA...those are the 5 states. It is even DEBATABLE whether the would truly deny licensure. There are reciprocity laws etc, that would likely hold up.

Look it.
Being an MD is easier, being a DO offers a FEW more challenges. Regardless of the medical path you choose, you WILL get your residency! Some choose the dedicated DO residency while others (myself) obtain an ACGME spot. No-one is left sweeping the floors at a Dairy Queen.
Do I sometimes wish I had chosen MD...yes (loans are a huge factor, as well as easier matching opportunities). But when it is all said and done...I BELIEVE THE DO MEDICAL EDUCATION IS THE BEST, MOST ROUNDED EDUCATION YOU CAN RECIEVE, it is IDEAL for primary care medicine and I am EXTREMELY proud of my Osteopathic Edcucation...and in the exact same breath, I am VERY VERY happy to have matched to an ACGME EM program. I beieve this combination will allow me to be the best physician possible!

 

[Vash311]

Clownguy,

What were you numbers like (gpa, board scores, etc.) before you matched into the EM residency? Did you apply only to allopathic or did you apply to ostopath. residencies as well?

 

[Mr. happy clown guy]

The way the osteopathic match works, you can only do one or the other (essentially). I only did the allopathic match, and if I didn't match I would scramble for osteopathic...there are a ton of open osteopathic spots.

My numbers were just ok, nothing special. 215 USMLE, 86% COMLEX.

 

[Detroit Mick]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Mr. happy clown guy:
•MI, Fla, OK, WV, PA...those are the 5 states. It is even DEBATABLE whether the would truly deny licensure. There are reciprocity laws etc, that would likely hold up.•••••So if an osteo doc goes allopathic for residency, he/she doesn't really have to worry about licensing issues in MI, FL, OK, WV, PA, right? 😕

 

[Mr. happy clown guy]

The nature of the law is such that if you DO NOT DO A TRADITIONAL ROTATING OSTEOPATHIC INTERNSHIP then you CAN NOT practice in those five states. Now, you CAN do residency in an allopathic program in WV (example) and practice, but you cannot moonlight during residency and after residency you gotta get out of WV!

It is likely that you can get reciprocity from one state to WV, FLA, PA, OK, MI...but I would guess it is a pain in the ass.

You can file a hardship and get your PGY 1 ACGME program AOA approved, but that takes effort.

There are loopholes, and I think somewhere on SDN they can be found on a link or something.

 

[Stillwell]

They don't have to worry about it in the sense that they can't practice there (also assuming they didn't get approval by the AOA).

However you can do the osteopathic internship and then start over at an allopathic residency, and then you can practice in the 5 states, BUT it adds a year to your overall residency.

But what I am wondering is if this rule for those 5 states is likely to go away or expand to other states??

I doubt anyone knows right now...

 

[GoForIt]

•••quote:•••However you can do the osteopathic internship and then start over at an allopathic residency, and then you can practice in the 5 states, BUT it adds a year to your overall residency. ••••It all depends on what you want to go into. For example, if you do a one year AOA internship, then pursue a AMA FP residency. Yes, the one year AOA internship is added to your overall residency because the AMA FP residency does not require the AOA internship.

On the other hand, I have a friend that graduated from WesternU/COMP last year. He got into an AMA Radiology program which required him to do a prelim before he could start his Rad residency. So, he is doing a one year AOA internship. That one year AOA internship is not added to his overall residency because it was required by the AMA Rad program.

I hope this info helps.

 

[Stillwell]

Yeah you are right, I forgot about Radiology. Also Anesthesiology has the same setup