Do MCAT scores matter for Residency matching ?

[BABSstudent]

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Tons and tons of people go to Carib schools, if they cant get a residency then why do these schools still exist ? Pretty sure if what u guys are saying is true, then Carib schools wouldn't exist or even be accredited in the US

Go ahead and look up the attrition rate of those schools. That should change your mind and open your eyes. They are there for the money.

 

[487806]

Tons and tons of people go to Carib schools, if they cant get a residency then why do these schools still exist ? Pretty sure if what u guys are saying is true, then Carib schools wouldn't exist or even be accredited in the US

Because tons of tons of Caribbean medical students don't even land up in US residency. They want to enjoy practicing overseas.

/thread

 

[KnuxNole]

Tons and tons of people go to Carib schools, if they cant get a residency then why do these schools still exist ? Pretty sure if what u guys are saying is true, then Carib schools wouldn't exist or even be accredited in the US

They aren't accredited in the US.....

People do get residencies from Caribbean schools. However, the risk is higher. US schools weed out first and salvage the investment. Caribbean schools accept first and then weed out. You said you only wanted to do family or internal. While those are less competitive, in the coming years it will get harder and harder to match. There will still be matches, but the risk factor is much higher compared to staying in the U.S for a MD or DO school.

 

[RockinRoll]

Go ahead and look up the attrition rate of those schools. That should change your mind and open your eyes. They are there for the money.

Because tons of tons of Caribbean medical students don't even land up in US residency. They want to enjoy practicing overseas.

/thread

I'm not a huge fan of Caribbean schools myself but you guys really need to stop generalizing all Caribbean schools especially the big 3. If you're going to then please come up with some solid evidence instead of just regurgitating what you read on the premed forum.
Each year SGU accepts close to 850 students (I know that because my friend works in an admin job for them and feel free to ask their students or email the school).
You can look at their match list for 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012:-

On average they have approximately 700 matches.
What does that tell you?
700/850 = Greater than 80 % of the incoming students match. I don't know about you but that's almost the same as some DO schools if not better. That's not too bad for a couple blokes with crappy GPAs and MCATs if you ask me.

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2012/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

 

[Lollygag]

Tons and tons of people go to Carib schools, if they cant get a residency then why do these schools still exist ? Pretty sure if what u guys are saying is true, then Carib schools wouldn't exist or even be accredited in the US

Because people are STUPID lol that and just like what EVERYONE else has been saying over and over and over again-- it is becoming significantly more competitive as the years go by. So where the Caribbean may have been a viable option years ago, it isn't ANYMORE.

In addition, I'm not sure how dental works but I have a friend who goes to Saint Kitts for vet school. It's fine for him because he doesn't have to do residency afterwards. I thought dental didn't have residency but I could be wrong. If that's the case then it may be similar to vet where Carib isn't as big of a deal. But again I'm very ignorant when it comes to dental so I could be totally wrong.

 

[circulus vitios]

I'm not a huge fan of Caribbean schools myself but you guys really need to stop generalizing all Caribbean schools especially the big 3. If you're going to then please come up with some solid evidence instead of just regurgitating what you read on the premed forum.
Each year SGU accepts close to 850 students (I know that because my friend works in an admin job for them and feel free to ask their students or email the school).
You can look at their match list for 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012:-

On average they have approximately 700 matches.
What does that tell you?
700/850 = Greater than 80 % of the incoming students match. I don't know about you but that's almost the same as some DO schools if not better. That's not too bad for a couple blokes with crappy GPAs and MCATs if you ask me.

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2012/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

👍 Nice for some real information. Still, I'm not sure I'd risk it.

 

[RockinRoll]

👍 Nice for some real information. Still, I'm not sure I'd risk it.

I wouldn't risk it either of course but I'm just saying for some with extremely low stats for MD this is a realistic approach.
AUC and SGU both have very impressive match rates and usmle pass rates. Yeah sure they have kids that flunk but a good chunk of them actually do get residencies. Surprisingly some of them even get competitive residencies. I attend a decent US MD school and some of the matches for AUC are almost as impressive as the matches for my own school in certain specialties.

http://www.aucmed.edu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2012-Residency-Placements-Report-V1.pdf

 

[BABSstudent]

I'm not a huge fan of Caribbean schools myself but you guys really need to stop generalizing all Caribbean schools especially the big 3. If you're going to then please come up with some solid evidence instead of just regurgitating what you read on the premed forum.
Each year SGU accepts close to 850 students (I know that because my friend works in an admin job for them and feel free to ask their students or email the school).
You can look at their match list for 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012:-

On average they have approximately 700 matches.
What does that tell you?
700/850 = Greater than 80 % of the incoming students match. I don't know about you but that's almost the same as some DO schools if not better. That's not too bad for a couple blokes with crappy GPAs and MCATs if you ask me.

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2012/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

The OP message that I quoted did not say anything about applying solely to the big 3. The OP said Caribbean, how are we to know he is referring to just the big 3?

However, 850 students for one class?!?!? **** that! I am worried about attending a school with 200 students per class.

And for the 18% of people that fail to match, they are screwed with the huge debt.

I am just saying attending a DO school would be better than going to the Caribbean. If the OP disagrees, then apply there! It really doesn't hurt me at all. I honestly don't care where he applies. The OP asked for advice and I told him what I believe.

 

[Nissan GTR]

I wouldn't risk it either of course but I'm just saying for some with extremely low stats for MD this is a realistic approach.
AUC and SGU both have very impressive match rates and usmle pass rates. Yeah sure they have kids that flunk but a good chunk of them actually do get residencies. Surprisingly some of them even get competitive residencies. I attend a decent US MD school and some of the matches for AUC are almost as impressive as the matches for my own school in certain specialties.

http://www.aucmed.edu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2012-Residency-Placements-Report-V1.pdf

The GME merger between the ACGME and AOA is going to hurt IMGs trying to match.

DO>>>>Carib

 

[RockinRoll]

The OP message that I quoted did not say anything about applying solely to the big 3. The OP said Caribbean, how are we to know he is referring to just the big 3?

However, 850 students for one class?!?!? **** that! I am worried about attending a school with 200 students per class.

And for the 18% of people that fail to match, they are screwed with the huge debt.

I am just saying attending a DO school would be better than going to the Caribbean. If you disagree, then apply there! It really doesn't hurt me at all. I honestly don't care where you apply. The OP asked for advice and I told him what I believe.

I know you told him what you "believe" because there were absolutely no facts behind them. I like to present advice with evidence not on a belief system. Did you completely miss the part where I said that the top 3 have attrition rates similar or even better than some DO schools?
When I commented I also discussed the big 2 Caribbean schools. The better advice would have been to lay down the facts that if you want to go to Caribbean the big 3 is your bet instead of generalizing and bashing "Caribbean schools".

 

[BABSstudent]

Did you completely miss the part where I said that the top 3 have attrition rates similar or even better than some DO schools?

Why do you compare the top three caribbean to all DO schools? I don't think that is a fair comparison.

 

[487806]

I'm not a huge fan of Caribbean schools myself but you guys really need to stop generalizing all Caribbean schools especially the big 3. If you're going to then please come up with some solid evidence instead of just regurgitating what you read on the premed forum.
Each year SGU accepts close to 850 students (I know that because my friend works in an admin job for them and feel free to ask their students or email the school).
You can look at their match list for 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012:-

On average they have approximately 700 matches.
What does that tell you?
700/850 = Greater than 80 % of the incoming students match. I don't know about you but that's almost the same as some DO schools if not better. That's not too bad for a couple blokes with crappy GPAs and MCATs if you ask me.

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2012/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

850 is an extremely large class size. SGU is better than the other diploma mill Caribbean schools, but MDs and DOs have the first priority compared to IMGs and FMGs. With increasing competition and ACGME's intention to reserve US residency seats for US medical students first, match rates in Caribbean will fall sharply.

 

[487806]

Why do you compare the top three caribbean to all DO schools? I don't think that is a fair comparison.

Comparing Caribbean (Top 3 or not) to a DO school is an insult to DO schools.

 

[RockinRoll]

Why do you compare the top three caribbean to all DO schools? I don't think that is a fair comparison.

Comparing Caribbean (Top 3 or not) to a DO school is an insult to DO schools.

Are you two seriously missing my point? this is not a comparison with DO schools but strictly evidence showing the fallacy behind your statements.

 

[RockinRoll]

850 is an extremely large class size. SGU is better than the other diploma mill Caribbean schools, but MDs and DOs have the first priority compared to IMGs and FMGs. With increasing competition and ACGME's intention to reserve US residency seats for US medical students first, match rates in Caribbean will fall sharply.

When exactly will those match rates start falling sharply?

 

[BABSstudent]

Are you two seriously missing my point? this is not a comparison with DO schools but strictly evidence showing the fallacy behind your statements.

Ignoring data to make your point and then claiming you used evidence? Sounds like something I would want an MD/PhD to do.

My opinion was based off word of mouth and looking at the attrition rates of a few Caribbean medical schools. Those I looked at were not from the top 3, but they are still Caribbean medical schools. I did not apply to any of those schools because I didn't want to take a risk in getting into a residency. That is worth it for me.

 

[RockinRoll]

Ignoring data to make your point and then claiming you used evidence? Sounds like something I would want an MD/PhD to do.

My opinion was based off word of mouth and looking at the attrition rates of a few Caribbean medical schools. Those I looked at were not from the top 3, but they are still Caribbean medical schools. I did not apply to any of those schools because I didn't want to take a risk in getting into a residency. That is worth it for me.

This is probably why you're not a MD/PhD no offense.

The fact of the matter is that you guys are presenting partially correct statements with incorrect statements without any evidence and that's just an outright shame.

 

[circulus vitios]

Why do you compare the top three caribbean to all DO schools? I don't think that is a fair comparison.

I literally have no idea how it's not a fair comparison. What in the hell are you talking about?

 

[RockinRoll]

I literally have no idea how it's not a fair comparison. What in the hell are you talking about?

He's playing by "word of mouth" so all you evidence lovers better shut up and listen. It scares me that some of these guys are possibly the future of medicine. Talk about bias, complete disregard for data and disrespect towards institutes providing a chance to few folks that desperately want to get a shot at earning an MD.

 

[487806]

I literally have no idea how it's not a fair comparison. What in the hell are you talking about?

How is it a fair comparison? Because SGU/Ross/AUC have similar attrition rates as DO schools?

 

[487806]

He's playing by "word of mouth" so all you evidence lovers better shut up and listen. It scares me that some of these guys are possibly the future of medicine. Talk about bias, complete disregard for data and disrespect towards institutes providing a chance to few folks that desperately want to get a shot at earning an MD.

Why not DO? What prestige does MD have that DO doesn't? Either way, there is always a chance for them to reapply with better stats (i.e. complete a post-bac etc.)

 

[RockinRoll]

How is it a fair comparison? Because SGU/Ross/AUC have similar attrition rates as DO schools?

Don't you think it's a fair comparison assuming that they both have similar acceptance stats as DO schools?

http://etalk.sgu.edu/faqs/medfaq.pdf

 

[mcloaf]

He's playing by "word of mouth" so all you evidence lovers better shut up and listen. It scares me that some of these guys are possibly the future of medicine. Talk about bias, complete disregard for data and disrespect towards institutes providing a chance to few folks that desperately want to get a shot at earning an MD.

Unless I missed something, a lot of the advice telling people not to go Carib is based upon the predicted changes that will come with the merger of the match. What say you?

 

[BABSstudent]

I literally have no idea how it's not a fair comparison. What in the hell are you talking about?

Because it is picking and choosing data.

I agree if you are going to go to a Caribbean school then go to one of the top three. But you can't say the Caribbean schools are good because just look at the top three and compare it to the average DO schools. Why not compare the top 3 US MD schools and compare to the caribbean? Would you consider that to be fair?

 

[487806]

Don't you think it's a fair comparison assuming that they both have similar acceptance stats as DO schools?

http://etalk.sgu.edu/faqs/medfaq.pdf

Considering SGU/Ross accepts way more applicants with lower stats and at higher costs, no. It's not a valid comparison. I would compare DO with acceptance in UK/Australian med schools.

 

[487806]

Unless I missed something, a lot of the advice telling people not to go Carib is based upon the predicted changes that will come with the merger of the match. What say you?

Exactly.

 

[circulus vitios]

How is it a fair comparison? Because SGU/Ross/AUC have similar attrition rates as DO schools?

Aren't we using attrition rates as a metric for getting a residency? No one said anything about a competitive residency.

 

[RockinRoll]

Unless I missed something, a lot of the advice telling people not to go Carib is based upon the predicted changes that will come with the merger of the match. What say you?

I say that there will be a shortage of physicians, tons of US MDs will not want to go into low leveled residency programs. Those slots will remain empty and will be filled by FMGs. Even then I reread the posts from the users they made comments about the PRESENT not just the future unless I'm missing something?

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

Tons and tons of people go to Carib schools, if they cant get a residency then why do these schools still exist ? Pretty sure if what u guys are saying is true, then Carib schools wouldn't exist or even be accredited in the US

They exist because people who weren't able to go to medical school in the US still want to become doctors. Sometimes they weren't able to go in the US because of since-rectified issues (didn't try in college, so a **** GPA. Maybe undiagnosed ADHD that, when medicated, renders the student godlike powers). Sometimes they think they're smarter than they are, or that the system screwed them personally, so they'll get in by any way they can. Some of those people (group A, for example), may actually be smart enough and able enough and driven enough to go to medical school. Some of these people, like group B, just aren't able to meet the cut, but they find that out after 250k in debt and 4 years later.

 

[circulus vitios]

Because it is picking and choosing data.

I agree if you are going to go to a Caribbean school then go to one of the top three. But you can't say the Caribbean schools are good because just look at the top three and compare it to the average DO schools. Why not compare the top 3 US MD schools and compare to the caribbean? Would you consider that to be fair?

what is this i dont even

 

[RockinRoll]

Considering SGU/Ross accepts way more applicants with lower stats and at higher costs, no. It's not a valid comparison. I would compare DO with acceptance in UK/Australian med schools.

SGU has an average GPA of 3.3 and MCAT score approximately 27. Last time I checked DO schools had similar stats.
Okay so now you want to start talking about class sizes and applicants. You're going off topic, we are discussing attrition rates and individuals matching into residencies. That has absolutely nothing to do with the number of applicants SGU/Ross may have. What it does have something to do with is how many individuals matriculated, how many passed step 1 and how many matched into a residency. Please don't throw distracts out there.

 

[487806]

I say that there will be a shortage of physicians, tons of US MDs will not want to go into low leveled residency programs. Those slots will remain empty and will be filled by FMGs. Even then I reread the posts from the users they made comments about the PRESENT not just the future unless I'm missing something?

Last time I checked, a US student going overseas = IMG and is usually in a disadvantage compared to an FMG in application time. There are threads out there discussing this.

 

[RockinRoll]

Last time I checked, a US student going overseas = IMG and is usually in a disadvantage compared to an FMG in application time. There are threads out there discussing this.

You guys really need to understand and analyze your evidence. Using n=1,2,3 or even 10 threads as a reference

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO SAY TO THAT Rocket Scientist.

 

[487806]

what is this i dont even

Could you clarify your argument? It sounds like a reiteration of RockinRoll's argument.

SGU has an average GPA of 3.3 and MCAT score approximately 27. Last time I checked DO schools had similar stats.
Okay so now you want to start talking about class sizes. You're going off topic, we are discussing attrition rates and individuals matching into residencies. That has absolutely nothing to do with the number of applicants SGU/Ross may have. What it does have something to do with is how many individuals matriculated, how many passed step 1 and how many matched into a residency. Please don't throw distracts out there.

This thread had gotten off-topic long time back when OP admitted of going to Caribbean school, and stubbornly claimed its usefulness. From that point on, the thread took a detour regarding Caribbean school validity rather than the point on MCAT's effect in residency (which has been resolved).

Yeah, I admit that large class sizes was a bit of a red herring I threw out there by taking your earlier evidence. My argument is FMGs have a main advantage over IMGs, although admittedly, the worst residencies are saved for the Caribbean students. That I agree.

 

[487806]

You guys really need to understand and analyze your evidence. Using n=1,2,3 or even 10 threads as a reference

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO SAY TO THAT Rocket Scientist.

Yeah, I'm just lazy to look up the evidence pointed out in thousands of threads before. No incentive to repeat what has already been discussed several times.

 

[KnuxNole]

DO schools don't have the same attrition level compared to SGU/Ross/AUC. That is another difference...

Although the attrition rate isn't painstakingly disastrous, it is a difference.

 

[487806]

DO schools don't have the same attrition level compared to SGU/Ross/AUC. That is another difference...

Although the attrition rate isn't painstakingly disastrous, it is a difference.

According to the active evidence-backed members, the attrition rates are similar.

 

[circulus vitios]

Could you clarify your argument? It sounds like a reiteration of RockinRoll's argument.

DO schools and big 3 Caribbean schools are back doors to US MD schools. That is why I am grouping them together. The attrition rates and average GPA/MCAT between DO schools and big 3 Caribbean schools aren't drastically different. I haven't seen match rate data, but the match rates might be similar between big 3 and DO schools. I have no idea why you would compare big 3 Caribbean (low 3 GPA/mid to high 20 MCAT) to top MD schools (3.8/35 or greater average.)

 

[RockinRoll]

Could you clarify your argument? It sounds like a reiteration of RockinRoll's argument.



This thread had gotten off-topic long time back when OP admitted of going to Caribbean school, and stubbornly claimed its usefulness. From that point on, the thread took a detour regarding Caribbean school validity rather than the point on MCAT's effect in residency (which has been resolved).

Yeah, I admit that large class sizes was a bit of a red herring I threw out there by taking your earlier evidence. My argument is FMGs have a main advantage over IMGs, although admittedly, the worst residencies are saved for the Caribbean students. That I agree.

The fact of the matter is that Caribbean students do get residencies and they tend to be crappy ones. Does that mean that SGU or AUC have high attrition rates as one of the previous poster stated? Yes and No? depends on what you identify as high. I was just saying that the top 3 Caribbean schools have attrition rates similar to DO schools, have stats similar to DO schools so it's not as horrendous of an idea as some say it to be.

My personal preference is US MD > US DO > Caribbean Big 3 but if someone wants to pick Caribbean big 3 over DO then I'm not going to start throwing false statements out there about attrition rates. I understand that you guys were addressing Caribbean schools in general but you guys tried to mask the big 2 (SGU, AUC) even when I bought them up.

 

[RockinRoll]

DO schools don't have the same attrition level compared to SGU/Ross/AUC. That is another difference...

Although the attrition rate isn't painstakingly disastrous, it is a difference.

I carefully said SOME DO schools and carefully chose SGU/AUC NOT Ross. In a way I myself was manipulating data. Either way I thought it was hilarious that these guys were using "word of mouth"

 

[Nissan GTR]

DO schools and big 3 Caribbean schools are back doors to US MD schools.

lolwut

 

[487806]

DO schools and big 3 Caribbean schools are back doors to US MD schools. That is why I am grouping them together. The attrition rates and average GPA/MCAT between DO schools and big 3 Caribbean schools aren't drastically different. I haven't seen match rate data, but the match rates might be similar between big 3 and DO schools. I have no idea why you would compare big 3 Caribbean (low 3 GPA/mid to high 20 MCAT) to top MD schools (3.8/35 or greater average.)

I agree with this.

The fact of the matter is that Caribbean students do get residencies and they tend to be crappy ones. Does that mean that SGU or AUC have high attrition rates as one of the previous poster stated? Yes and No? depends on what you identify as high. I was just saying that the top 3 Caribbean schools have attrition rates similar to DO schools, have stats similar to DO schools so it's not as horrendous of an idea as some say it to be.

My personal preference is US MD > US DO > Caribbean Big 3 but if someone wants to pick Caribbean big 3 over DO then I'm not going to start throwing false statements out there about attrition rates. I understand that you guys were addressing Caribbean schools in general but you guys tried to mask the big 2 (SGU, AUC) even when I bought them up.

Yeah, I would agree with these statements, although DO schools have lower (though not by much) attrition rates than big 3. Maybe the newer DO schools have similar attrition rates to big 3.

 

[KnuxNole]

According to the active evidence-backed members, the attrition rates are similar.

The 700/850? If I read that correctly(and I've been boozed up so sorry if I have logical faults), that is how many matched from the starting class size. It doesn't mean that 150 dropped out. So, 700 people out of XXX matched, which is good.

DO schools in general don't have the same attrition that happens in the first year or so. Also, DO students don't always intend to match at allopathic programs.

 

[RockinRoll]

The 700/850? If I read that correctly(and I've been boozed up so sorry if I have logical faults), that is how many matched from the starting class size. It doesn't mean that 150 dropped out. So, 700 people out of XXX matched, which is good.

DO schools in general don't have the same attrition that happens in the first year or so. Also, DO students don't always intend to match at allopathic programs.

👍 You're right mate. I was just trying to prove to some premeds that Caribbean schools do match and not to fall for the misinformation spread on threads. They took it as me defending Caribbean schools when in fact all I was doing was playing devil's advocate.

 

[487806]

👍 You're right mate. I was just trying to prove to some premeds that Caribbean schools do match and not to fall for the misinformation spread on threads. They took it as me defending Caribbean schools when in fact all I was doing was playing devil's advocate.

Yeah, thanks for that. I had realized we were on the same side of the debate...

 

[GopherMD]

Moral of the story: don't go to the Caribbean for medical school unless you really, REALLY have to.

 

[487806]

Moral of the story: don't go to the Caribbean for medical school unless you really, REALLY have to.

Wrong. Avoid the Caribbean unless it's a Big 3 and want to match into a worst residency.

 

[RockinRoll]

Moral of the story: don't go to the Caribbean for medical school unless you really, REALLY have to.

Someone completely missed the point, I'm sure you did ok on the VR

Wrong. Avoid the Caribbean unless it's a Big 3 and want to match into a worst residency.

Big 3 would be pushing it. I would say Big 2 (SGU and AUC). If you're counting Ross as Big 3 then that's a bad idea. Ross has a horrific attrition rate, they practically accept anything that breaths.

 

[487806]

Someone completely missed the point, I'm sure you did ok on the VR



Big 3 would be pushing it. I would say Big 2. If you're counting Ross as Big 3 then that's a bad idea. Ross has a horrific attrition rate, they practically accept anything that breaths.

SGU and AUC have similar attrition rates? What about St. James and Sabas?

 

[RockinRoll]

What's Big 2? AUC/SGU?

Yeah. I edited my previous post. Even though there's no way in hell I would ever go to any of those 2 schools, they can get the job done right now. No one knows of the future but SGU is playing games to hold onto residency spots by paying hospitals so who knows.