Do Med Schools look at rigor of undergrad courses?

[JohnChenko]

At my university, I was granted permission to take 300 and 400 level courses (3rd and 4th) in my freshman year . . . does it really matter to med schools though? Or would someone who took the easy "GPA booster electives" be treated the same as someone who took in depth courses in topics that intersted them?

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[tortelliniboy]

just do the pre-reqs unless you're genuinely interested in these classes. Honestly, none of it really matters.

 

[NickNaylor]

Yes, the rigor of your undergrad curriculum is generally a considered factor.

 

[deleted577188]

Yes, the rigor of your undergrad curriculum is generally a considered factor.

But major doesn't matter?

 

[Grace184]

I've heard Goro say it's not the major, as long as you do well in it. That's for DO though.

 

[GrapesofRath]

If you are taking science classes that aren't for science majors (ie some 100 level class) it will get noticed. And it will get noticed especially if your science GPA isn't good and you have a number of classes like this boosting your GPA and medicore performance in higher level classes.

For freshmen, no you don't get points for making your life harder on yourself; simply for doing well. It doesn't work like "well I got a B in a 300 level class that very few freshmen take so you can just assume I would have gotten at least an A- in the normal intro bio class freshmen take". Hopefully you can get the gist of what I'm getting at.

 

[Law2Doc]

Adcoms don't have the time or inclination to audit your coursework to compare whose is more rigorous. So in general, if you took all the prereqs and your GPA is good that's the end of the inquiry. Yes schools will give lip service to the notion that they give a nod to rigorous coursework, but when push comes to shove all most focus on is the GPA because they really have no clue whether your "advanced physics" is harder than my "contemporary topics in advanced physics" and so on.

I would say taking a more rigorous course load is generally not going to help your cause unless its at one of those grade inflation schools which assume that anyone taking such courses is entitled to an A. You are always better off ending up with the higher GPA. Of course you may have personal reasons for taking a harder course -- you may be really into it and want to learn more, but if your goal is purely to get into med school take the easy A.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Adcoms don't have the time or inclination to audit your coursework to compare whose is more rigorous. So in general, if you took all the prereqs and your GPA is good that's the end of the inquiry. Yes schools will give lip service to the notion that they give a nod to rigorous coursework, but when push comes to shove all most focus on is the GPA because they really have no clue whether your "advanced physics: is harder than my "contemporary topics in advanced physics" and so on.

I would say taking a more rigorous course load is generally not going to help your cause unless its at one of those grade inflation schools which assume that anyone taking such courses is entitled to an A. You are always better off ending up with the higher GPA. Of course you may have personal reasons for taking a harder course -- you may be really into it and want to learn more, but if your goal is purely to get into med school take the easy A.

To add on the courses you take start getting analyzed more thoroughly if you have a medicore GPA or a strong upward trend(was the upward trend because all of a sudden the classes started getting alot easier?)

But even in this case ADCOMs are working off course descriptions and the number behind classes. They just don't have anything else to go off of and frankly don't have the time either. There is a limit into the info you can gleam from someone looking at their app for 30 minutes.

If it is an upper level science class in bio/physics/chem and you do well in it you'll be mostly fine even if it is an upper level elective class with a name like "Biological basis of memory" which might sound rather rudimentary and something of an intro level class or something for non science majors.

 

[Law2Doc]

To add on the courses you take start getting analyzed more thoroughly if you have a medicore GPA or a strong upward trend...

But even in this case ADCOMs are working off course descriptions and the number behind classes. They just don't have anything else to go off of and frankly don't have the time either. There is a limit into the info you can gleam from someone looking at their app for 30 minutes...

Upward trend is a totally different analysis than how challenging the coursework was. In my experience a place has to already want you to weigh in upward trend, and it's about improving GPA not necessarily about taking harder courses. I know a guy who had some issues freshman year and was on academic probation freshman year but straightened himself out and got straight A's thereafter -- that's the kind of upward trend that works. He wasn't taking harder courses, just doing better with a similarly strenuous course load.

I'm saying don't expect to get much, if any, benefit from adcoms for taking upper level coursework as an undergrad. The guy who gets straight A's taking his prereqs with the football team is going to have an easier time getting into med school than the guy who racks up a bunch of B's taking science with engineers.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Upward trend is a totally different analysis than how challenging the coursework was. In my experience a place has to already want you to weigh in upward trend, and it's about improving GPA not necessarily about taking harder courses. I know a guy who had some issues freshman year and was on academic probation freshman year but straightened himself out and got straight A's thereafter -- that's the kind of upward trend that works. He wasn't taking harder courses, just doing better with a similarly strenuous course load.

I'm saying don't expect to get much, if any, benefit from adcoms for taking upper level coursework as an undergrad. The guy who gets straight A's taking his prereqs with the football team is going to have an easier time getting into med school than the guy who racks up a bunch of B's taking science with engineers.

The latter part of what you said is very true.

The thing about upward trends is if you are on the lower end of the spectrum GPA wise in some ways you could almost consider them maybe even somewhat mandatory. Someone with a 3.4-3.5 is definitely going to have more problems being a consistent 3.4-3.5 student with a flat trend that a 3.1-3.2 student for 3-4 semesters then a 3.8-3.9 student for the last 2 years of college. You need to convince ADCOMs you can handle undergrad rigor sufficiently.

There's a saying one of my family friends who is an old ADCOM always uses(paraphrasing here) "To be successful in MD school admission you need to demonstrate you can handle medical school sufficiently well when the standards are much higher in the classroom. The best way to do this is to have an overall track record throughout undergrad on par with what is expected from MD matriculants(the average MD undergrad GPA 3.7 or higher). If you don't have this, then you need to demonstrate you can handle the rigor of medical school another way and that is through a strong recent performance of AT LEAST 2-3 semesters(of at least that 3.7 caliber work or an SMP) while making your GPA in a range that is still within striking distance".

So for those with lower GPAs that aren't necessairly lethal(3.4-3.5 type territory) to get an ADCOM to vouce for you and be interested in you to begin with you need to demonstrate you can handle academic rigor. It's hard to say a 3.4-3.5 consistent flat trend does that consistently for people(there are always exceptions and individual cases or people who wow in other ways to make up for this kind of flat trend). But bottom line a medicore pre-med who all throughout college was a 3.4-3.5 student could easily raise questions about whether s/he is cut out for the rigor of medical school. Even someone with a strong MCAT and a flat GPA trend in the 3.4-3.5 range could raise questions of being "unmotivated" which is lethal for this kind of profession. Recent strong performance can erase those doubts even if the overall GPA is still in the 3.4-3.5 range.

And where the real point of this all comes in is that those who need that upward trend to demonstrate they can handle medical school will have their coursework looked at more closely. Did the 3.2 student suddenly become a 3.8 one these last 2 years because the classes got alot easier? That's the big question and doubt you have to remove. That's where taking upper level science classes matters. What caused the upward trend? You don't want the answer to be taking easy classes. If you did poorly in pre-reqs your first two years the way to remedy that is with upper level science courses your latter two years, that's the bottom line.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
And where the real point of this all comes in is that those who need that upward trend to demonstrate they can handle medical school will have their coursework looked at more closely. Did the 3.2 student suddenly become a 3.8 one these last 2 years because the classes got alot easier? That's the big question and doubt you have to remove. That's where taking upper level science classes matters. What caused the upward trend? You don't want the answer to be taking easy classes. If you did poorly in pre-reqs your first two years the way to remedy that is with upper level science courses your latter two years, that's the bottom line.

While I agree with you conceptually that maybe this is the way it SHOULD work, in my experience it's not how things actually play out. If you can up your GPA from a 3.2 to a 3.8 most Adcoms will be happier with you as an applicant. They aren't really going to audit the classes and say "oh I see, he took a bunch of easy classes". Maybe they should, but in the interest of time, most won't. They will stop their inquiry at the 3.8 and won't care much how you got it. Now you still need a decent sGPA, so I doubt you can get away with nothing but underwater basket weaving, but you certainly can get away with a lot of "rocks for jocks" type classes, if that's what you need to do.

 

[GrapesofRath]

While I agree with you conceptually that maybe this is the way it SHOULD work, in my experience it's not how things actually play out. If you can up your GPA from a 3.2 to a 3.8 most Adcoms will be happier with you as an applicant. They aren't really going to audit the classes and say "oh I see, he took a bunch of easy classes". Maybe they should, but in the interest of time, most won't. They will stop their inquiry at the 3.8 and won't care much how you got it. Now you still need a decent sGPA, so I doubt you can get away with nothing but underwater basket weaving, but you certainly can get away with a lot of "rocks for jocks" type classes, if that's what you need to do.

I don't necessairly agree with this and the couple people I know personally in admission(whom I trust) have told me things that contradict many parts of this but there's no perfect answer here. Parts of what we are both saying have truth to them. This perfectly exemplies the grey areas in how admission work and why different schools often interpret the same applicant completely differently. I respect your direct experience with this and its good insight.

 

[NTheo91]

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[Goro]

At my school, I have a colleague who does look for the type of coursework people take at the upper levels, and he expects them to take the more challenging, or at least interesting electives.

I look at coursework very carefully, but my criteria is coursework tat matches med school coursework. So I have little tolerance for an Ecology-rich load, but give points for taking Anatomy, Physiology, Micro etc.

Also remember that people get accepted as non-science majors, and take the bare minimum of the pre-reqs too. Overall, as L2D and others here have pointed out, we expect you to do well, no matter what you take.

 

[meetsub]

While I agree with you conceptually that maybe this is the way it SHOULD work, in my experience it's not how things actually play out. If you can up your GPA from a 3.2 to a 3.8 most Adcoms will be happier with you as an applicant. They aren't really going to audit the classes and say "oh I see, he took a bunch of easy classes". Maybe they should, but in the interest of time, most won't. They will stop their inquiry at the 3.8 and won't care much how you got it. Now you still need a decent sGPA, so I doubt you can get away with nothing but underwater basket weaving, but you certainly can get away with a lot of "rocks for jocks" type classes, if that's what you need to do.

This is incredibly sad though. So many undergrad facebook premed groups are riddled with every other post asking "Which of these classes would be easiest?" That makes me scared for the future of people heading into medicine.

 

[vk77]

Take the harder classes. Life isn't entirely predicated on getting into medical school, and I'm sure that getting a good grade in those classes will be much more dependent on how interested you are in the subject of that class, and less so on how "easy" everyone else thinks it is.

 

[GrapesofRath]

At my school, I have a colleague who does look for the type of coursework people take at the upper levels, and he expects them to take the more challenging, or at least interesting electives.

I look at coursework very carefully, but my criteria is coursework tat matches med school coursework. So I have little tolerance for an Ecology-rich load, but give points for taking Anatomy, Physiology, Micro etc.

Also remember that people get accepted as non-science majors, and take the bare minimum of the pre-reqs too. Overall, as L2D and others here have pointed out, we expect you to do well, no matter what you take.

How about upper level science classes that don't necessairly fit either the ecology or medical school spectrum?

Here are some examples

Biological Basis of Learning
Neural Basis of Cognition
Animal Behavior(I guess this can count for Ecology)
Neurobio Basis of Aging
Developmental Biology
Neurochemical Basis of Behavior
Genes and Diseases

I'm just listing random upper level science courses at my school but I wonder where these classs fall under. Would these fall towards maybe The "easy" upper levels because most aren't necessairly courses that match medical school coursework or would they be classes where strong performance would be noted favorably towards, particularly for borderline applicants like I mentioned above who kind of need an upward trend or who didn't have the most amazing pre-req grades?

 

[Law2Doc]

How about upper level science classes that don't necessairly fit either the ecology or medical school spectrum?

Here are some examples

Biological Basis of Learning
Neural Basis of Cognition
Animal Behavior(I guess this can count for Ecology)
Neurobio Basis of Aging
Developmental Biology
Neurochemical Basis of Behavior
Genes and Diseases

I'm just listing random upper level science courses at my school but I wonder where these classs fall under. Would these fall towards maybe The "easy" upper levels because most aren't necessairly courses that match medical school coursework or would they be classes where strong performance would be noted favorably towards, particularly for borderline applicants like I mentioned above who kind of need an upward trend or who didn't have the most amazing pre-req grades?

That's kind of the point. You aren't sure how these should be regarded and you go to that school. An Adcoms won't make much inquiry and remember he's comparing courses to similarly nebulous course titles from other schools. It's much quicker and easier to just go with the higher GPA.

 

[JohnChenko]

Thanks for your thoughtful and informative responses!

I remember debating back in freshman year whether I should take the courses I was interested in (which happened to be 300 and 400 level courses that were normally restricted to freshmen) or the easy courses such as geology, environmental science, ecology, etc. That being said, don't take a course just because it is high level.

I encourage any premeds reading this to take courses that you are interested in and to not be detracted by the relative difficulty of a course. Kinda cliche, but take courses in subjects that you are truly passionate about. Challenge yourself.

This is incredibly sad though. So many undergrad facebook premed groups are riddled with every other post asking "Which of these classes would be easiest?" That makes me scared for the future of people heading into medicine.

^ I totally agree with this. I cringe whenever I see this.

 

[Goro]

A lot of Psych coursework mesh into neuroscience, such as the ones I have in green below. Developmental Biology is very much a part of Anatomy....it's Embryology!

Genes and Disease meshes into Genetics and/or Molecular Biology.

So the only one I wouldn't take as serious would be Animal Behavior.

In the long run, I hope people take what interests them, and just do well in them.

How about upper level science classes that don't necessairly fit either the ecology or medical school spectrum?

Here are some examples

Biological Basis of Learning
Neural Basis of Cognition
Animal Behavior(I guess this can count for Ecology)
Neurobio Basis of Aging
Developmental Biology
Neurochemical Basis of Behavior
Genes and Diseases

I'm just listing random upper level science courses at my school but I wonder where these classs fall under. Would these fall towards maybe The "easy" upper levels because most aren't necessairly courses that match medical school coursework or would they be classes where strong performance would be noted favorably towards, particularly for borderline applicants like I mentioned above who kind of need an upward trend or who didn't have the most amazing pre-req grades?

 

[Lancer]

This is incredibly sad though. So many undergrad facebook premed groups are riddled with every other post asking "Which of these classes would be easiest?" That makes me scared for the future of people heading into medicine.

Indeed, I have also seen this a lot.

It makes me sad if the adcoms don't really care about course difficulty. I guess it would be difficult to measure across schools, but ideally the person pursuing his interests and taking some of the harder classes should be looked at more favorably than someone cherry picking the classes rumored to be easy.

 

[Doug Underhill]

As someone who does some animal behavior work, I would say that it is BCPM, but probably not as rigorous as a biochem/physio/micro course.

Knowing the limitations of your forced swim test and whether it's a good measure of the in vivo efficacy of the GPCR allosteric modulators you're testing as possible treatments for depression could enhance your research work.

 

[cloudmurder1]

This is incredibly sad though. So many undergrad facebook premed groups are riddled with every other post asking "Which of these classes would be easiest?" That makes me scared for the future of people heading into medicine.

Don't hate the player hate the game.

 

[meetsub]

Don't hate the player hate the game.

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