Do medical schools descriminate based on race?

[zinki949]

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I just filled out my AMCAS application and it asked me what race I am. I feel like because I marked that I'm 'white', I'll be less desirable from the medical school's vantage point.

Does anyone know if race is used to determine admissions?

Just look up the campus you are intersted in and if they list being part of Affirmative action process, well then you will have your answer...

 

[mipp0]

Quotas and affirmative action are laws that were put in place by the government because minorities were extremely upset and demanded more rights. However, the difference between demanding equal opportunity versus equal results is certainly a point of contention for many.

In my humble opinion, the whole mantra of "we want a diverse atmosphere etc." from schools and businesses was a result of such laws. No one wanted (or wants) to be seen as doing anything other than total compliance with the federal government, which is understandable. The truth is that there are instances where diversity may not be in the best interest of a company or school, but the mantra is still preached repeatedly.

I just want to correct the idea that the whole notion of diversity came about from free market ideas as some on this thread have tended to indicate.

Medman, I think diversity is a good thing. The problem is, the means to which we come to the desired diversity. But why does diversity have to be understood through a purely racial lens? It shouldn't be understood that way.

 

[LizzyM]

Life is unfair. Learn to deal with it. Be the strongest applicant you can be and don't whine if you aren't good enough.

 

[medmannamdem]

I believe many on this thread are arguing that they, in fact, are good enough, and are being denied success because of certain laws and/or practices in place. I'm not saying the laws are wrong, but the racial/ethnic aspect of the application process most likely has kept several qualified applicants out of medical school.

Your thoughts?🙂

 

[mipp0]

Life is unfair. Learn to deal with it. Be the strongest applicant you can be and don't whine if you aren't good enough.

LizzyM, I respect you immensely...

But perhaps we should work to make life a little more fair for everyone?

Your "philosophy" reminds me of what the church said to Martin Luther King Jr..."...it's just the way things are..."--in a nutshell.

Solely socioeconomic considerations over racial ones is one step towards progress, me thinks.

 

[sylvanthus]

"Life is unfair. Learn to deal with it. Be the strongest applicant you can be and don't whine if you aren't good enough."

Sorry, but I find this comment to be utterly ridiculous coming from a school admin and would expect you to be more professional. Seriously that was a ridiculous comment. Should african americans and women just have sucked it up and dealt with open oppression in the past because life just wasn't fair? Really? Should we continue to ignore the blatant racial prejudice in favor of minorities and against majorities currently because life just isn't fair?

Wow, I am flabbergasted.

 

[mipp0]

I believe many on this thread are arguing that they, in fact, are good enough, and are being denied success because of certain laws and/or practices in place. I'm not saying the laws are wrong, but the racial/ethnic aspect of the application process most likely has kept several qualified applicants out of medical school.

Your thoughts?🙂

Me agrees.

 

[2014wanted]

If you seriously just filled out AMCAS and are hoping to get in this year, unless your stats are amazing, you're probably SOL. Save your $, wait next year, and get your stuff in in June.

And if you don't get in, it will have nothing to do with your race... so please save that excuse when it happens.😉

 

[strummin]

1) People actually think we should cater to racial biases. E.g. if a white person doesn't want a black doctor we should let that white person dictate acceptance requirements into medical school OR if a black person doesn't want a white doctor, we give advantages to being black in medical school. Maybe it's time we learn (as a people) that race truly doesn't matter.

It would be absolutely wonderful if race didn't matter. But it does. And it will continue mattering. This is just how society is. And let's not forget our history - we are the society today because of our history. Minorities have been marginalized in this country throughout history, and thus minorities do tend to "stick together" a lot - but there's a reason for this. We don't live in a utopia - unfortunately. Hopefully this phenomenon will continue fading away, and in a couple of decades it might be very minimal.

And it's not only about race. A poor black patient could probably relate more to a white doctor who came from a disadvantaged background than to a white doctor who didn't.

 

[2014wanted]

"Life is unfair. Learn to deal with it. Be the strongest applicant you can be and don't whine if you aren't good enough."

Sorry, but I find this comment to be utterly ridiculous coming from a school admin and would expect you to be more professional. Seriously that was a ridiculous comment. Should african americans and women just have sucked it up and dealt with open oppression in the past because life just wasn't fair? Really? Should we continue to ignore the blatant racial prejudice in favor of minorities and against majorities currently because life just isn't fair?

Wow, I am flabbergasted.

Actually African Americans and women are still sucking it up. You can't erase years of oppression by simply saying, "hey we were wrong for slavery and keeping you all (and women) oppressed for so many years, now we think that you all are equal, so catch up!"
The "favoritism" towards minorities is really minuscule when you compare the bigotry towards minorities. I do believe that minorities should have to work for what they get just like everyone else, but you do have to take into account that they (for the most part) have a more difficult quest to get where they are. To not factor that in at all, is just naive (for a nicer word)!

And lets remember that no matter how you got into med school, to become a doctor you have to pass the boards, period! So if they are not physician worthy, theoretically, they should not pass the boards (the great equalizer) and it will not matter how they got into med school.

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

Well TaylorMD, I appreciate your openness. It's refreshing. Now let me ask you this--if all ethnic groups experience socioeconomic difficulties, why is it relevant to know the race of the applicant?

May I ask you another thing? Why does the standard need to be lowered (based on the AAMC statistics I'm making this claim) for URM applicants who haven't experienced any socioeconomic difficulties?
For the sake of diversity? That seems problematic...and you can't blame us for being a little angry about the state of things.

The questions you pose don't entire have to do with diversity. They also deal with the need for minority physicians to work in underserved areas of this country, which are mainly occupied by minorities that feel more comfortable with minority doctors because of a history of mistrust of physicians for their wrongdoing in the past (Tuskegee experiments, racism, etc) and their desire to have someone who looks like them. It has also been shown in studies that ORM patients prefer ORM docs to some extent. I have seen that a lot of older African Americans don't trust Caucasian doctors or Asian doctors as much as an URM doctor. I actually plan on doing my research in med school along the lines of psychology dealing with medical perception, minority communities and race relations so this interests me. Studies shown above in this thread have shown that underrep. minorities intend to go back and do go back to work in these underserved communities to a greater extent than ORMs regardless of income.

I wouldn't say that the standards are actually being lowered. Some URM (definitely not all as some may think because there are definitely a good proportion of high stat URMs) do have lower stats but so do more ORMs just because of the huge disparity in number of matriculants URM vs ORM. It just may seem more of a norm for URMs getting in with lower stats bc of the small # accepted but the HBCU and Puerto Rican med schools do bring down the AAMC stats because they accept students with some lower stats if they show the desire and commitment to the underserved populations and serving these people, which is their mission. HBCU schools in total accept around 1/2 of all URMs accepted in a given year. I don't believe, and I have seen no data to support that URMs are getting in with lower stats than ORMs at all institutions around the country. But what really is a standard for med school? An arbitrary #? Will the person with the 38 MCAT score be a better doctor than the person with the 28? Above a general score I believe with hard work, anyone can succeed in medical school with hard work. I believe this is what Adcoms believe too. They wouldn't put money and resources into someone they think will fail the STEPs. Everyone, once in med school takes the same exams and needs the same level of proficiency to become a doctor. What they want to do is even the playing field at this point to give those who can make it, the opportunity to do so. Should it be done earlier in life? Possibly. Is this process working as it is now? To some extent I believe so. Is there a better way to do it? Perhaps, but that hasn't been found yet and until it is, we need a way to ensure that underserved communities aren't falling by the wayside and that there is minority representation in the profession that mimics what is seen in the population.

 

[medmannamdem]

However, I'm interested in the "end game."

How do you determine when equality has been achieved? By running numbers and cranking out statistics? That is what seems to be so difficult - assessing the difference between equal opportunity and equal results.


Hypothetically, what if everyone had equal access but the results were very unequal?
Would that still be an unfair result?

The topic reminds me of the New Haven Firefighters issue - it is worth googling.

I know this is a hot topic, and I'm not try to be incendiary, just trying to point out some of the difficulties in assessing "equality."

 

[Eggs n Coffee]

in same vein, why don't you take your own advice, and if my posts bother you so much you can stop reading it and contributing equally little?

Are you seriously asking this question? Wow you're dense. Maybe...Because I was forced to read it as I went down this thread? It's not like I knew ahead of time that you'd post something so irrelevant

 

[LizzyM]

And it's not only about race. A poor black patient could probably relate more to a white doctor who came from a disadvantaged background than to a white doctor who didn't.

I disagree. I believe that a poor black patient could probably relate more to a black doctor who came from a privileged background than a white doctor of any background. Ditto people of other ethnicities.

Life experience counts for something. Unless you are black, you don't know what it is to be black, to be stopped for driving down the street in certain neighborhoods or at certain times of day, to be followed closely as you browse in a store, to be looked at in a certain way in public places.

Life is not fair. It is not fair that some people get treated badly because of the color of their skin, the size and shape of their facial features, or other physical characteristics.

Life is unfair for those URMs with gpa >3.8 and MCAT > 38 who are assumed to have been admitted because of the color of their skin.

No one is obligated to list their race and ethnicity on the application. Refuse to answer if you wish.

As far as I know, no one has been denied admission BECAUSE of their race, sex or ethnicity. I've never known a cap or a quota. As with undergrad college, there is an attempt to admit a wide variety of applicants ... does the fact that we admit some self-identified homosexuals mean that we are discriminating against heterosexuals or making it harder for qualified heterosexuals to be admitted?

 

[jvesco22]

Let me explain my logic to you like I would a two year old girl, while holding her hand:

WE SHOULD HAVE THE SAME STANDARDS APPLY TO PEOPLE OF ALL ETHNIC BACKGROUNDS.

Socioeconomic considerations are important and should be part of the admittance process, but remember, all ethnic groups can experience socioeconomic difficulties, not just URM.

There, better?

Just because you can't see the logic doesn't mean it isn't there. I hope you can see it now.

OK, we get it. You're of asian descent from a disadvantaged background and you feel that you deserve to be treated better in the application process.You should calm down before your aneurysm starts acting up again...

 

[icalz]

OK, we get it. You're of asian descent from a disadvantaged background and you feel that you deserve to be treated better in the application process.You should calm down before your aneurysm starts acting up again...

🤣🤣

 

[icalz]

I disagree. I believe that a poor black patient could probably relate more to a black doctor who came from a privileged background than a white doctor of any background. Ditto people of other ethnicities.

Life experience counts for something. Unless you are black, you don't know what it is to be black, to be stopped for driving down the street in certain neighborhoods or at certain times of day, to be followed closely as you browse in a store, to be looked at in a certain way in public places.

Life is not fair. It is not fair that some people get treated badly because of the color of their skin, the size and shape of their facial features, or other physical characteristics.

Life is unfair for those URMs with gpa >3.8 and MCAT > 38 who are assumed to have been admitted because of the color of their skin.

No one is obligated to list their race and ethnicity on the application. Refuse to answer if you wish.

As far as I know, no one has been denied admission BECAUSE of their race, sex or ethnicity. I've never known a cap or a quota. As with undergrad college, there is an attempt to admit a wide variety of applicants ... does the fact that we admit some self-identified homosexuals mean that we are discriminating against heterosexuals or making it harder for qualified heterosexuals to be admitted?

👍👍

 

[medmannamdem]

If schools make it their mission to have a given number of minority students, then that does decrease the number of spots for non-minority students, and therefore, does deny entrance to some qualified students because of their racial status (of not being considered a minority.)

Again, I'm not arguing that these rules are altogether wrong, but I won't wash over the issue and say that there are not serious ramifications as a result of the rules.

 

[Eggs n Coffee]

OK, we get it. You're of asian descent from a disadvantaged background and you feel that you deserve to be treated better in the application process.You should calm down before your aneurysm starts acting up again...

Technically no one should be treated better or worse. But the fact is, Asians are treated "worse" (held to a higher standard), when they should be treated equally.

 

[HappySlappy]

Omg, seriously, this topic, AGAIN?

Look, for what it's worth: I go to a top 20 medical school, I'm hispanic, my GPA was good, my MCAT was below the school's average. There's got to be like 13/14 hispanic people in my class out of 230, even less black people (wow they're really taking all those spots in med school....🙄), but I can speak for myself and some of my friends in saying that we're kicking butt. Yeah, my MCAT "did not merit" my acceptance as some of you may think, but I've (as well as the majority of the minorities I know) have been scoring in the 2nd quartile or above on almost all of the exams. I'm so sick and tired of people thinking that we don't deserve to get into medical school because we didn't have perfect stats (the objective stats like GPA and MCAT score aren't the ONLY requirements for getting into medical school). The fact of the matter is, you're not in the admissions committee, you don't know what they want or what they're looking for, but it sure is easy to blame a minority when a white person or asian with perfect stats didn't get in, right?.....

You guys really need to stop making us the scapegoats, it's sad really. Who knows why a person with all the perfect stats and 100 hours of research experience didn't get in? It could be a piss poor interview, it could be that he/she wasn't memorable, who knows? Blaming minorities for "taking all the spots" is just ridiculous, especially when I'm positive no one is on any of these med school admissions committees and knows what they're looking for exactly.

Oh yeah, and I have a friend that goes to a med school in Texas with a total of 3, that's right, THREE, black people (himself included). Wow, watch out. Do they have enough spots for the rest of you guys?.....🙄

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[2014wanted]

If schools make it their mission to have a given number of minority students, then that does decrease the number of spots for non-minority students, and therefore, does deny entrance to some qualified students because of their racial status (of not being considered a minority.)

Again, I'm not arguing that these rules are altogether wrong, but I won't wash over the issue and say that there are not serious ramifications as a result of the rules.

Of course, there are serious ramifications as a result of these rules. Ever since schools have began using such criteria there has been a serious decrease of ORM physicians and ORM medical school graduates. I mean, it's at a state of emergency. ORMs with 4.0s & 38 MCATs are being denied admission solely because of their race. It's just the most severe case of racism that our country has ever witnessed... it's just despicable.

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[mipp0]

I disagree. I believe that a poor black patient could probably relate more to a black doctor who came from a privileged background than a white doctor of any background. Ditto people of other ethnicities.

Life experience counts for something. Unless you are black, you don't know what it is to be black, to be stopped for driving down the street in certain neighborhoods or at certain times of day, to be followed closely as you browse in a store, to be looked at in a certain way in public places.

Life is not fair. It is not fair that some people get treated badly because of the color of their skin, the size and shape of their facial features, or other physical characteristics.

Life is unfair for those URMs with gpa >3.8 and MCAT > 38 who are assumed to have been admitted because of the color of their skin.

No one is obligated to list their race and ethnicity on the application. Refuse to answer if you wish.

As far as I know, no one has been denied admission BECAUSE of their race, sex or ethnicity. I've never known a cap or a quota. As with undergrad college, there is an attempt to admit a wide variety of applicants ... does the fact that we admit some self-identified homosexuals mean that we are discriminating against heterosexuals or making it harder for qualified heterosexuals to be admitted?

LizzyM,

To say one ethnicity can't understand another ethnicity better than his or her own is INCREDIBLY MYOPIC. I'm shocked to hear this from you. My life experiences, and the lived experiences of others, discredit your narrow-minded statement. A person's existence doesn't gravitate solely around his racial/ethnic identity. A white doctor who came from the ghetto probably understands a black patient from the ghetto better than a black doctor from Beverly Hills. Just because you think one way doesn't make it so.

The URM matriculant who's academic caliber is being questioned wouldn't face that situation if a universal standard existed for all peoples (or perhaps to a much lesser degree).

As far as I know, the UC Regents are raising hell because there are not enough black students in their campuses. They want diversity for the SAKE OF DIVERSITY and are willing to lower the standards for one group of people to accept more of them. You're looking at it the wrong way and twisting the argument into something it's not. One group isn't being denied; ONE GROUP IS BEING PREFERRED OVER ANOTHER PURELY FOR RACIAL/ETHNIC CONSIDERATIONS.

How are you an administrator of a medical school?

 

[mipp0]

The link shows the percent of underrepresented minorities accepted based on their GPA/MCAT. Also, the GPA/MCAT and acceptance percentage for other races is available by clicking on the appropriate links on the page.

While Asian matriculants, for example, generally have higher MCATs/GPAs than the "under represented minorites", they may have had an easier time in college, not having to work full time and being able to devote more time and energy to studying.

I am asian and have nothing against the "under represented minority" applicants (nor against white applicants)--I feel blessed for not having to work in college. I'm sure my GPA would have suffered if I had to work.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt-raceeth.htm

Why are you making an assumption about the lived experience of a whole ethnic/racial group? I know so many Asian and white students who had to work to make ends meet in college. Again, poverty and ORM/white students aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[MBHockey]

LizzyM,

To say one ethnicity can't understand another ethnicity better than his or her own is INCREDIBLY MYOPIC. I'm shocked to hear this from you. My life experiences, and the lived experiences of others, discredit your narrow-minded statement. A person's existence doesn't gravitate solely around his racial/ethnic identity. A white doctor who came from the ghetto probably understands a black patient from the ghetto better than a black doctor from Beverly Hills. Just because you think one way doesn't make it so.

The URM matriculant who's academic caliber is being questioned wouldn't face that situation if a universal standard existed for all peoples (or perhaps to a much lesser degree).

As far as I know, the UC Regents are raising hell because there are not enough black students in their campuses. They want diversity for the SAKE OF DIVERSITY and are willing to lower the standards for one group of people to accept more of them. You're looking at it the wrong way and twisting the argument into something it's not. One group isn't being denied; ONE GROUP IS BEING PREFERRED OVER ANOTHER PURELY FOR RACIAL/ETHNIC CONSIDERATIONS.

How are you an administrator of a medical school?

You completely misunderstood LizzyM's post. She said that a poor black patient would probably relate more to a black doctor, regardless of the doctor's socioeconomic upbringing, than a white doctor. It's all about the patient's perspective.

May want to read a bit more carefully before flying off the handle.

 

[mipp0]

You completely misunderstood LizzyM's post. She said that a poor black patient would probably relate more to a black doctor, regardless of the doctor's socioeconomic upbringing, than a white doctor. It's all about perception.

I think you misunderstood my point.

Why does race/ethnicity matter for the patient? Why does everything have to be viewed through a racial lens? I disagree. A poor black patient would not probably relate more to a rich black doctor than a poor white doctor.

Have you met black students from rich neighborhoods? Are you assuming all black people from different socioeconomic/geographic backgrounds are the same or can magically relate to one another?

 

[bannie22]

i just believe in meritocracy. thats all i believe in.

 

[MBHockey]

I think you misunderstood my point.

Why does race/ethnicity matter for the patient? Why does everything have to be viewed through a racial lens? I disagree. A poor black patient would not probably relate more to a rich black doctor than a poor white doctor.

Have you met black students from rich neighborhoods? Are you assuming all black people from different socioeconomic/geographic backgrounds are the same or can magically relate to one another?

Why does it matter? Because it's the reality of the situation! A poor black patient WILL feel more comfortable when a black doctor walks in the room than when a white doctor walks in the room. That's it, end of story.

Have you spent time in a clinical setting? This point should be obvious to you if you have.

To debate whether this is fair or not is an entirely different thing, and quite frankly, a waste of time.

 

[marty mcfly]

If schools make it their mission to have a given number of minority students, then that does decrease the number of spots for non-minority students, and therefore, does deny entrance to some qualified students because of their racial status (of not being considered a minority.)

Again, I'm not arguing that these rules are altogether wrong, but I won't wash over the issue and say that there are not serious ramifications as a result of the rules.

The only people that actually think AA is a good idea are minorities (for obvious reasons) and old people who are still themselves paying for their transgressions in the past. The elders know they made mistakes, so they are willing to give up some personal rights to support AA. It is all about making them feel better about themselves.

Other problem I cannot hear about anymore. This concept that only 5-10 or 15 spots per class is barely anyone. Its 15 spots that are available for those that compete fairly. Instead of the minority representing only 1 other person who I compete with, the minority represents 15 spots that are immediately off the table. Its disproportionate discrimination.

By the way, graduating with an MD is a game changer and whatever you said about working in underserved populations 5 years ago is no longer valid.

Hypothetical: If I declare agnostic/atheist, do I get in?

 

[mipp0]

Why does it matter? Because it's the reality of the situation. It's the reality that a poor black patient WILL feel more comfortable when a black doctor walks in the room than when a white doctor walks in the room. That's it, end of story.

Have you spent time in a clinical setting? This point should be obvious to you if you have.

To debate whether this is fair or not is an entirely different thing, and quite frankly, a waste of time.

I have spent nearly 1000 hours in the emergency room as an ER TECH. Yes, it's obvious to me you are wrong. My black and Puerto Rican friends think you are wrong. To make assumptions about an entire racial group is wrong (kind of like what you are doing).

Just because you think something doesn't make it true.

 

[shiftingmirage]

I think you misunderstood my point.

Why does race/ethnicity matter for the patient? Why does everything have to be viewed through a racial lens? I disagree. A poor black patient would not probably relate more to a rich black doctor than a poor white doctor.

Studies have actually shown that when doc and pt are of the same race, the pt feels better, is more likely to follow treatment, etc. If you want citations, I will gladly provide them. Race DOES matter to the patient.

 

[Eggs n Coffee]

LizzyM,

To say one ethnicity can't understand another ethnicity better than his or her own is INCREDIBLY MYOPIC. I'm shocked to hear this from you. My life experiences, and the lived experiences of others, discredit your narrow-minded statement. A person's existence doesn't gravitate solely around his racial/ethnic identity. A white doctor who came from the ghetto probably understands a black patient from the ghetto better than a black doctor from Beverly Hills. Just because you think one way doesn't make it so.

The URM matriculant who's academic caliber is being questioned wouldn't face that situation if a universal standard existed for all peoples (or perhaps to a much lesser degree).

As far as I know, the UC Regents are raising hell because there are not enough black students in their campuses. They want diversity for the SAKE OF DIVERSITY and are willing to lower the standards for one group of people to accept more of them. You're looking at it the wrong way and twisting the argument into something it's not. One group isn't being denied; ONE GROUP IS BEING PREFERRED OVER ANOTHER PURELY FOR RACIAL/ETHNIC CONSIDERATIONS.

How are you an administrator of a medical school?

.
People from the same ethnicity tend to have more similar backgrounds... there is a shared experience among a racial minority that a white person will not understand, and vice versa

 

[mipp0]

Studies have actually shown that when doc and pt are of the same race, the pt feels better, is more likely to follow treatment, etc. If you want citations, I will gladly provide them. Race DOES matter to the patient.

How convenient. Studies from where and when? How many patients and doctors were interviewed? I'm sure "your studies" are far from perfect and has its own problems to grapple. Also, there are lurking variables like language, prejudices, religion, politics, geography, etc. A patient doesn't have to view the doctor through a purely racial lens as I have mentioned before.

Race doesn't always matter to a patient. Let's start small...

I don't care about the race of my doctor. Anyone on SDN agree?

 

[mipp0]

.
People from the same ethnicity tend to have more similar backgrounds... there is a shared experience among a racial minority that a white person will not understand, and vice versa

I think you misunderstood my point. Just because you share one experience doesn't make you relate to that person more. You're looking through lived experiences through racial lens only. Consider RELIGION (VERY BIG), POLITICS, CLASS (VERY BIG), SHARED EXPERIENCES LIKE DEATH OF LOVED ONE OR ILLNESS, DISABILITY, WAR, etc.

The world is not so black and white (no pun intended).

 

[Eggs n Coffee]

How convenient. Studies from where and when? How many patients and doctors were interviewed? I'm sure "your studies" are far from perfect and has its own problems to grapple. Also, there are lurking variables like language, prejudices, religion, politics, geography, etc. A patient doesn't have to view the doctor through a purely racial lens as I have mentioned before.

Race doesn't always matter to a patient. Let's start small...

I don't care about the race of my doctor. Anyone on SDN agree?

Yeah, I totally with you! I don't care about the race of my doctor, I care more about their personality and abilities...

My mother, on the other hand, spent ages looking for the right Japanese doctor because she wants someone who can speak her native language and explain things to her. There's not many white/black/Indian/Chinese/etc doctors who can speak Japanese fluently, ya know...

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

The only people that actually think AA is a good idea are minorities (for obvious reasons) and old people who are still themselves paying for their transgressions in the past. The elders know they made mistakes, so they are willing to give up some personal rights to support AA. It is all about making them feel better about themselves.

Other problem I cannot hear about anymore. This concept that only 5-10 or 15 spots per class is barely anyone. Its 15 spots that are available for those that compete fairly. Instead of the minority representing only 1 other person who I compete with, the minority represents 15 spots that are immediately off the table. Its disproportionate discrimination.

By the way, graduating with an MD is a game changer and whatever you said about working in underserved populations 5 years ago is no longer valid.

Hypothetical: If I declare agnostic/atheist, do I get in?

Who is to say that these 15 people didn't deserve the spots? What makes you think that because they are URM, the spots aren't their own and that they have grades, mcat scores, ec's and experiences to back it up? Like I said before, not every URM is getting in with below par stats. There are more ORM getting in with below par stats than URM just because of the sheer number of ORM matriculants compared to URM. If a URM gets in with below average stats, more often than not there are more ORMs in the same boat since 10 URM (with supposed bad stats) would not drag down an avg MCAT or GPA for 150-200 people. What about these people? Where is the hell being raised about them?

 

[Eggs n Coffee]

I think you misunderstood my point. Just because you share one experience doesn't make you relate to that person more. You're looking through lived experiences through racial lens only. Consider RELIGION (VERY BIG), POLITICS, CLASS (VERY BIG), SHARED EXPERIENCES LIKE DEATH OF LOVED ONE OR ILLNESS, DISABILITY, WAR, etc.

The world is not so black and white (no pun intended).

Hey man, I think you mean well and I agree with you - I really, really wish race was not a factor in admission because I'm Asian. I can't decide whether I support affirmative action or am against it.

But unfortunately, in the world today, shared racial background has a significant impact, whether it can be calculated or not.. Plus your religion, politics, and class tends to be affected by race/ethnicity. People feel more comfortable with others of their own race. I know this just by looking at my school. Although we live in a liberal area, blacks tend to hang out with other black people, Asians with Asians, whites with whites.

Although AA hurts my chances, I do like the idea that a black med school student is more likely to work in the black community.. same for Hispanic doctors and Native American doctors. It would be sad if all doctors were Asian and white, which is close to what would happen if race was not taken into consideration... i mean, that's almost the way things are already

 

[HappySlappy]

Other problem I cannot hear about anymore. This concept that only 5-10 or 15 spots per class is barely anyone. Its 15 spots that are available for those that compete fairly. Instead of the minority representing only 1 other person who I compete with, the minority represents 15 spots that are immediately off the table. Its disproportionate discrimination.

Hypothetical: If I declare agnostic/atheist, do I get in?

Who's to say that the minorities didn't compete as fair? What "merits" are you basing it on? GPA and MCAT? Some people with low MCAT scores and GPAs do end up doing quite well on step 1 and medical school overall. From what I understand they take into account how well you interview, volunteer experience, ect, not just those two factors. And also, not ALL minorities have low GPAs and MCAT scores. I'm already anticipating your response will be "I never said that all minorities have horrible GPAs and MCATS in any of my arguments," then my response is: What exactly are you arguing for then, because it sure seems like that's what you're implying? Otherwise how else would you think it's "unfair" that the majority of us are "taking spots" in medical school? Do you have records on every single minority acceptance, and have spoken to people on admissions committees, and have thus deemed all or most of their acceptances as "unfair" compared to other ethnicities? Asians and whites do get in with below average stats as well, no one seems to whine about them. I guess "equality" to you guys means take away all the spots from from minorities and give them to whites and Asians because they had more "merit"......

 

[HappySlappy]

Who is to say that these 15 people didn't deserve the spots? What makes you think that because they are URM, the spots aren't their own and that they have grades, mcat scores, ec's and experiences to back it up? Like I said before, not every URM is getting in with below par stats. There are more ORM getting in with below par stats than URM just because of the sheer number of ORM matriculants compared to URM. If a URM gets in with below average stats, more often than not there are more ORMs in the same boat since 10 URM (with supposed bad stats) would not drag down an avg MCAT or GPA for 150-200 people. What about these people? Where is the hell being raised about them?

Weird, we basically said the same thing in our arguments. Damn, now it's going to look like I copied from you because you said it first. lol

 

[mipp0]

Hey man, I think you mean well and I agree with you - I really, really wish race was not a factor in admission because I'm Asian. I can't decide whether I support affirmative action or am against it.

But unfortunately, in the world today, shared racial background has a significant impact, whether it can be calculated or not.. Plus your religion, politics, and class tends to be affected by race/ethnicity. People feel more comfortable with others of their own race. I know this just by looking at my school. Although we live in a liberal area, blacks tend to hang out with other black people, Asians with Asians, whites with whites.

Although AA hurts my chances, I do like the idea that a black med school student is more likely to work in the black community.. same for Hispanic doctors and Native American doctors. It would be sad if all doctors were Asian and white, which is close to what would happen if race was not taken into consideration... i mean, that's almost the way things are already

In my school, different ethnic groups are well integrated into others. You can't make a sweeping generalization for every school. There are different ways for addressing the underrepresented neighborhood problem.

You write "It would be sad if all doctors were Asian and white, which is close to what would happen if race was not taken into consideration". Why do you assume most doctors would be Asian and white if race isn't considered?

Anyway, I should go back to studying. Thank you eggs for agreeing with me...the race of the doctor shouldn't matter. Any who, I vote this thread:

MOST INTENSE AND PASSIONATE THREAD OF 2009

I'm sure we can all agree on that.

 

[Eggs n Coffee]

Who's to say that the minorities didn't compete as fair? What "merits" are you basing it on? GPA and MCAT? Some people with low MCAT scores and GPAs do end up doing quite well on step 1 and medical school overall. From what I understand they take into account how well you interview, volunteer experience, ect, not just those two factors. And also, not ALL minorities have low GPAs and MCAT scores. I'm already anticipating your response will be "I never said that all minorities have horrible GPAs and MCATS in any of my arguments," then my response is: What exactly are you arguing for then, because it sure seems like that's what you're implying? Otherwise how else would you think it's "unfair" that the majority of us are "taking spots" in medical school? Do you have records on every single minority acceptance, and have spoken to people on admissions committees, and have thus deemed all or most of their acceptances as "unfair" compared to other ethnicities? Asians and whites do get in with below average stats as well, no one seems to whine about them. I guess "equality" to you guys means take away all the spots from from minorities and give them to whites and Asians because they had more "merit"......

Just out of pure curiosity.. Have you experienced any discrimination (whether blatant or subtle) in medical school because you are a URM?

 

[mipp0]

Weird, we basically said the same thing in our arguments. Damn, now it's going to look like I copied from you because you said it first. lol

Happyslappy, URM students are being preferred over ORM/white students purely because of their race. I think we can all see how that is unfair. No one is saying ALL URM STUDENTS lack the merit and caliber to become doctors. Rather, we are critiquing the admissions process.

 

[strummin]

i just believe in meritocracy. thats all i believe in.

In case you missed my previous post, here it is:

Which brings me to my next point, the world of medicine isn't a strict meritocracy. If you're a brilliant physicist who has done groundbreaking research, then you are more likely to win the Nobel prize over other physicists that haven't done ground-breaking research. But medicine is different. Medicine isn't just about the science - it's about the PEOPLE i.e. the patients. Otherwise, anyone with a 4.0 GPA and 37 MCAT without any EC's should get automatic admission, because he/she has proved that they are more than capable of handling medical school. But we find that that's often not the case - a person with lower stats but with much better EC's may have a better chance of getting into medical school.

That's the difference.

 

[mipp0]

In case you missed my previous post, here it is:

Strummin,

mer⋅i⋅toc⋅ra⋅cy

  /ˌmɛr

ɪˈtɒk

rə

si/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mer-i-tok-ruh-see] Show IPA Use meritocracy in a Sentence

See web results for meritocracy

See images of meritocracy

–noun, plural -cies. 1. an elite group of people whose progress is based on ability and talent rather than on class privilege or wealth.
A meritocracy doesn't have to be just based on numbers.

 

[teenmachinery1]

= this thread

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

Happyslappy, URM students are being preferred over ORM/white students purely because of their race. I think we can all see how that is unfair. No one is saying ALL URM STUDENTS lack the merit and caliber to become doctors. Rather, we are critiquing the admissions process.

From LizzyM:
From 2005-2007, medical schools accepted 36,352 white applicants,( 48.6% of all whites who applied). During the same time frame, the schools admitted 7,947 URM applicants (43.6% of all URM who applied).

Does that sound like you would be "undesirable"?

Stats alone are not enough to get you a spot and very high stats are not the best measure of success as a physician. If you set a minimum score needed to succeed in medical school, there are far more applicants above those minimums than there are spots. So, other things come into play including social skills, prior experience, attitude."

This. 👍 URMs are still getting in at a lower clip and its not all based on race, and I wouldn't call it a "preference". We can make all the conjecture that we want as pre meds and med students but for LizzyM as an adcom, I think she is the most credible source here.

 

[LizzyM]

If schools make it their mission to have a given number of minority students, then that does decrease the number of spots for non-minority students, and therefore, does deny entrance to some qualified students because of their racial status (of not being considered a minority.)
Again, I'm not arguing that these rules are altogether wrong, but I won't wash over the issue and say that there are not serious ramifications as a result of the rules.

I have never heard anyone say, "Let's not take this next applicant because we don't want that kind here." No one is getting denied admission because of their race, they are being denied because in the scheme of things we have seats in the lecture hall (and slots at the clinical sites) for only a small percentage of the applicants who are quaified for admission. We'd love to take all of you (well almost all --some invited for interview turn out to be too weird or creepy or misanthropic to be considered).

If you want to argue that you are more qualified than someone with a lower gpa and MCAT then you are not taking into account all of the factors that go into admission decisions which include life experiences and attitudes. Again, I'll say, be the best applicant you can be, target your applications to schools where you are average or above average in comparison to the current students, and be humble in the face of life's vicissitudes.

 

[HappySlappy]

Just out of pure curiosity.. Have you experienced any discrimination (whether blatant or subtle) in medical school because you are a URM?

No I have not. Fortunately I've never experienced any racism in med school (it's been a wonderful experience so far). In college though, I flat out had someone tell me that I didn't deserve to get into my medical school because of my MCAT score. Sure proved him wrong, though. 🙂 Probably why I have such an issue with these threads.....

Happyslappy, URM students are being preferred over ORM/white students purely because of their race. I think we can all see how that is unfair. No one is saying ALL URM STUDENTS lack the merit and caliber to become doctors. Rather, we are critiquing the admissions process.

In essence you are saying that our merit and caliber (in terms of getting accepted) is less than that of a white person or Asian being accepted because you said we're "preferred purely because of our race." Basically to me it sounds like you're saying if a white/Asian got in he/she must have "really deserved it," but if a hispanic or black got in it may have just been because of their ethnicity. Do you agree with that? Are you on an admissions committee by the way? Because you seem to know a lot about who gets in for what reasons......

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

Weird, we basically said the same thing in our arguments. Damn, now it's going to look like I copied from you because you said it first. lol

Haha, great minds think alike. We will just say we said it at the same time 👍