Do Neurosurgeons have time to do bench research? Or establish collaborations?

[Alakazam123]

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Hey, just curious about something, as I finished shadowing a neurosurgeon recently. He was the chief of neurosurgery at the university. He is an MD/PhD, so I asked him if he does any bench research still, and he told me he doesn't do much anymore. So, I have the following questions:

1. Is this the norm? Will you basically have to give up on basic science/bench research if you go into neurosurgery?

2. If you are very curious about a particular research topic, can you collaborate with a PhD or other MD and get funding for a research project, wherein you handle the clinical side and they handle the bench research?

3. If you do collaborate, and discover a new drug together for instance, can you go ahead and patent the idea, or does the partner who did the benchwork have more leverage?

 

[GoSpursGo]

Moving to pre-medical forum. You should still get some responses from medical students there.

Since he's the chief of neurosurgery, why don't you ask him what other people in his division do?

 

[getdown]

yes

 

[TheDappGoesWild]

Yes

 

[deleted938090]

I would like to expand on this question. I am interested in seeing patients but I would like opportunities to conduct research while practicing. I am wondering whether my choice of specialty would affect how much research time and the types of research I can reasonably conduct.

1. Surgery specialties: I am under the impression that surgeons will have limited time to conduct research because of their demanding schedules. If I were to enter surgery, which sacrifices will I have to be willing to make to conduct research?
2. Which specialties-research area combinations have the most synergy between clinical experience and research?
3. Although I wish to conduct research, I do not wish to sacrifice patient care. How often do these conflicts arise?

 

[LizzyM]

Patient care pays. If you see patients, someone pays for that care. The more you do, the more money rolls in. Now you want to stop doing something that generates revenue and do something that does not generate revenue. You need to, at the very least, find someone who will pay you for your time, the equipment and supplies you need for your research, and perhaps, for staff members who work with you. That means you need to take time out to write grants (no revenue for doing that writing) and hope you are awarded a grant (getting harder all the time -- some say you are more likely to win the lottery than get grant funding). This grant funding is going to be less on a per hour basis than you can make in the OR so there is a sacrifice being made right there and there is a sacrifice for the medical school in terms of revenue if the revenue you generate clinically is in some way supporting the medical school (often clinical departments will pay a "tax" on revenue to the medical school dean's office ) that is more money than the "indirect costs" paid by grant funding agencies for "indirect costs" associated with your research grants.

There is, of course, the demand for clinical services and the fact that your clinical skills are built on using those skills and doing many cases. Being in lab takes away from the opportunity to hone your surgical skills and that isn't good for anyone.

tl;dr you are more valuable in the O.R. than in the lab.

 

[Alakazam123]

Patient care pays. If you see patients, someone pays for that care. The more you do, the more money rolls in. Now you want to stop doing something that generates revenue and do something that does not generate revenue. You need to, at the very least, find someone who will pay you for your time, the equipment and supplies you need for your research, and perhaps, for staff members who work with you. That means you need to take time out to write grants (no revenue for doing that writing) and hope you are awarded a grant (getting harder all the time -- some say you are more likely to win the lottery than get grant funding). This grant funding is going to be less on a per hour basis than you can make in the OR so there is a sacrifice being made right there and there is a sacrifice for the medical school in terms of revenue if the revenue you generate clinically is in some way supporting the medical school (often clinical departments will pay a "tax" on revenue to the medical school dean's office ) that is more money than the "indirect costs" paid by grant funding agencies for "indirect costs" associated with your research grants.

There is, of course, the demand for clinical services and the fact that your clinical skills are built on using those skills and doing many cases. Being in lab takes away from the opportunity to hone your surgical skills and that isn't good for anyone.

tl;dr you are more valuable in the O.R. than in the lab.

Any answers to my 3 questions by chance?

 

[LizzyM]

Any answers to my 3 questions by chance?

what's your CARS score?

 

[Alakazam123]

what's your CARS score?

125. Wait...this doesn't answer my question though? about neurosurgery and the like.

 

[Unlimited Apps]

125. Wait...this doesn't answer my question though? about neurosurgery and the like.

Hmm, I wonder why you were asked for your CARS score...

Lol.

 

[Lucca]

There are neurosurgeons who are also PIs and it's probably the surgical specialty with the most MD/PhDs. The question is whether or not you can find an area of research where your clinical skills complement the science you want to do. What that means is anyones guess. I don't think it's particularly useful to think of the nitty gritty of a career that will take about 15 years after acceptance to medical school to get off the ground. Who even knows what either medicine or science will look like then. Figure out if you want to do science, medicine, or both. Then figure out if you want to do surgery. Then figure out if you want to do basic science related to problems relevant to surgical disease. Then figure out if you want to neurosurgery....etc

 

[Alakazam123]

Hmm, I wonder why you were asked for your CARS score...

Lol.

I suppose it's her way of saying I'm thinking too far ahead...that being said she answered the other pre-med's student without hesitation. So, I don't know.

 

[LizzyM]

Hey, just curious about something, as I finished shadowing a neurosurgeon recently. He was the chief of neurosurgery at the university. He is an MD/PhD, so I asked him if he does any bench research still, and he told me he doesn't do much anymore. So, I have the following questions:

1. Is this the norm? Will you basically have to give up on basic science/bench research if you go into neurosurgery?

2. If you are very curious about a particular research topic, can you collaborate with a PhD or other MD and get funding for a research project, wherein you handle the clinical side and they handle the bench research?

3. If you do collaborate, and discover a new drug together for instance, can you go ahead and patent the idea, or does the partner who did the benchwork have more leverage?

Sorry about that. I lost track of the OP after seeing someone else's 3 questions.
1. You may not have protected (paid for) time for research if your skills are more valuable in the O.R. than in the lab.
2. It is difficult to get funding and getting harder all the time. What is the "clinical side" of a research study? There will always be opportunities for enrolling subjects in clinical trials, administering clinical trial treatments (e.g. new implantable device, new material for closing incisions, new drugs administered interoperatively) but I didn't get the impression that you were asking about that. Often this is a collaboration between a sponsor (pharmaceutical or device company) that does the bench research and study administration, and the clinicians in the field who recruit the patients/research participants and administer the study treatment and measure the outcomes.
3. Intellectual property rights are a big ball of wax. The institution where you work may own those rights or may give you a cut. Often, a product that is developed on campus in a lab is farmed out to a pharmaceutical company for further testing. Often the inventors are closed off from doing trials themselves because there is a perceived conflict of interest given that you will profit if the drug is successful and that could color your judgement. (See James Wilson : Nature News)

 

[Alakazam123]

Sorry about that. I lost track of the OP after seeing someone else's 3 questions.
1. You may not have protected (paid for) time for research if your skills are more valuable in the O.R. than in the lab.
2. It is difficult to get funding and getting harder all the time. What is the "clinical side" of a research study? There will always be opportunities for enrolling subjects in clinical trials, administering clinical trial treatments (e.g. new implantable device, new material for closing incisions, new drugs administered interoperatively) but I didn't get the impression that you were asking about that. Often this is a collaboration between a sponsor (pharmaceutical or device company) that does the bench research and study administration, and the clinicians in the field who recruit the patients/research participants and administer the study treatment and measure the outcomes.
3. Intellectual property rights are a big ball of wax. The institution where you work may own those rights or may give you a cut. Often, a product that is developed on campus in a lab is farmed out to a pharmaceutical company for further testing. Often the inventors are closed off from doing trials themselves because there is a perceived conflict of interest given that you will profit if the drug is successful and that could color your judgement. (See James Wilson : Nature News)

Dang, it seems to be easier on non-surgical specialities I guess. Neurologists, cardiologists, ophthalmologists etc. have much more going on in terms of basic science research.

 

[HomeSkool]

I love it when @LizzyM gets sassy.

 

[Crayola227]

I would keep in mind as well, that as he is dept head, he has tacked on a number of purely administrative duties that have likely pushed out his time for in-depth bench research

I wouldn't worry too much about it, beyond the fact that you just can't do it all

you likely can't do enough clinical medicine to stay relevant (and most clinicians that I know that even do hardcore bench research, still have some clinical presence, even 1 day a week perhaps, some are able to retire from that entirely), AND do enough bench research to crank out enough results to maintain relevance/funding, AND be dept head or some other important administrative position

you probably have to pick 2 of the 3, not all

so I wouldn't take his particular career trajectory as a sign beyond all that

also, neurosurgery is a field that highly prizes and pushes for its members to do research above and beyond training, part of this is because unlike fields like FM or such, it is so small that if proportionally you don't have a lot doing research, the field won't move forward

so I would expect to maintain a strong research presence (although possibly not bench) in neurosurgery, and you should be able to if you are suited and work hard

 

[Alakazam123]

I would keep in mind as well, that as he is dept head, he has tacked on a number of purely administrative duties that have likely pushed out his time for in-depth bench research

I wouldn't worry too much about it, beyond the fact that you just can't do it all

you likely can't do enough clinical medicine to stay relevant (and most clinicians that I know that even do hardcore bench research, still have some clinical presence, even 1 day a week perhaps, some are able to retire from that entirely), AND do enough bench research to crank out enough results to maintain relevance/funding, AND be dept head or some other important administrative position

you probably have to pick 2 of the 3, not all

so I wouldn't take his particular career trajectory as a sign beyond all that

also, neurosurgery is a field that highly prizes and pushes for its members to do research above and beyond training, part of this is because unlike fields like FM or such, it is so small that if proportionally you don't have a lot doing research, the field won't move forward

so I would expect to maintain a strong research presence (although possibly not bench) in neurosurgery, and you should be able to if you are suited and work hard

Also, do you know many MD's only who do bench research as opposed to MD/PhD?

 

[Alakazam123]

Sorry about that. I lost track of the OP after seeing someone else's 3 questions.
1. You may not have protected (paid for) time for research if your skills are more valuable in the O.R. than in the lab.
2. It is difficult to get funding and getting harder all the time. What is the "clinical side" of a research study? There will always be opportunities for enrolling subjects in clinical trials, administering clinical trial treatments (e.g. new implantable device, new material for closing incisions, new drugs administered interoperatively) but I didn't get the impression that you were asking about that. Often this is a collaboration between a sponsor (pharmaceutical or device company) that does the bench research and study administration, and the clinicians in the field who recruit the patients/research participants and administer the study treatment and measure the outcomes.
3. Intellectual property rights are a big ball of wax. The institution where you work may own those rights or may give you a cut. Often, a product that is developed on campus in a lab is farmed out to a pharmaceutical company for further testing. Often the inventors are closed off from doing trials themselves because there is a perceived conflict of interest given that you will profit if the drug is successful and that could color your judgement. (See James Wilson : Nature News)

Thank you for your informative response. What I meant by the "clinical side" is the following: Suppose you want to do research on a particular brain tumor, or on spinal motor neuron regeneration for spinal cord repair. Can you sit down with a PhD or MD/PhD in the field in your institution, and set up a joint research project, wherein they would do the basic science work, and you would provide the human samples, etc.?

And, at this point, if you and the professor were to discover a new therapy for spinal motor neuron repair, could you then try to patent it is what I was wondering...bc, there is a professor at my university in Biomedical Engineering who just patented some new nanoparticle design, and formed a start-up.

 

[Alakazam123]

I would keep in mind as well, that as he is dept head, he has tacked on a number of purely administrative duties that have likely pushed out his time for in-depth bench research

I wouldn't worry too much about it, beyond the fact that you just can't do it all

you likely can't do enough clinical medicine to stay relevant (and most clinicians that I know that even do hardcore bench research, still have some clinical presence, even 1 day a week perhaps, some are able to retire from that entirely), AND do enough bench research to crank out enough results to maintain relevance/funding, AND be dept head or some other important administrative position

you probably have to pick 2 of the 3, not all

so I wouldn't take his particular career trajectory as a sign beyond all that

also, neurosurgery is a field that highly prizes and pushes for its members to do research above and beyond training, part of this is because unlike fields like FM or such, it is so small that if proportionally you don't have a lot doing research, the field won't move forward

so I would expect to maintain a strong research presence (although possibly not bench) in neurosurgery, and you should be able to if you are suited and work hard

Furthermore, does your statement about how you can't do enough clinical medicine to stay relevant AND do highly productive bench research apply primarily to surgical subspecialties, or does it apply to non-surgical subspecialties as well?

 

[Dox4lyfe]

Also, do you know many MD's only who do bench research as opposed to MD/PhD?

Google any neurosurgery department at an academic center and you'll find a good mix of MD and MD/PhDs doing basic research.

Funnily enough, I'm actually working with an "MD only" neurosurgeon on a project similar to the one you described and he does a 50/50 split.

 

[LizzyM]

Take it one step at a time. Things can change over the next 10 years... if you are willing to make sacrifice, it may be possible to do what you have in mind but you should also consider the possibility that you'll end up in primary care in a suburban or rural practice. Could you live with that option?

 

[Alakazam123]

Take it one step at a time. Things can change over the next 10 years... if you are willing to make sacrifice, it may be possible to do what you have in mind but you should also consider the possibility that you'll end up in primary care in a suburban or rural practice. Could you live with that option?

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate that you did not condescend to me, or dismiss my questions. The only reason why I guess I'm asking the following questions is this:

People always say, "don't choose your speciality too early!" or "keep an open mind!" However, for surgical specialties, most people decide upon entering Medical School, and start beefing up their resumes from day one. But yes, I agree I come off as a tad premature in my approach in the whole matter.

Regardless, thank you for your professional and measured responses to my questions.

 

[getdown]

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate that you did not condescend to me, or dismiss my questions. The only reason why I guess I'm asking the following questions is this:

People always say, "don't choose your speciality too early!" or "keep an open mind!" However, for surgical specialties, most people decide upon entering Medical School, and start beefing up their resumes from day one. But yes, I agree I come off as a tad premature in my approach in the whole matter.

Regardless, thank you for your professional and measured responses to my questions.

The reason you're getting a lot of attitude in your replies is because the questions you're asking are either ultra specific or irrelevant. It's good to have specific questions about a specialty but you're asking about super subspecialized optho sugery and whether you can co-collaborate on tumor surgery as an attending neurosurgeon. Questions that most on this forum would not be able to answer appropriately and questions better addressed to the appropriate academic subspecialty surgeons who have a better picture on the longitudinal aspects of their respective fields. Have you shadowed any yet? You mention about beefing your resume from day one. So the questions you should be asking is "how to maximize my chances of getting into medical school", "what ECs, grades, etc will make me stand out for X specialty field", "what should I do in medical school to position myself to best match into X field" not about your post-training research opportunities when a majority of MS4s applying neurosurgery don't even get into neurosurgery. I have a friend who is finishing up his last year of neurosurgery and he can't wait to be done. Their training is ****ing brutal and depending on the place you end up in you could be on call for months at an end. Did you consider these aspects of the field?

It really is like a high school JV basketball player asking "hey, when I make the NBA can I get to date supermodels?". The general answer is probably. But how many kids are recruited D1 (med school) and become studs that they're drafted into the NBA (competitive surgical subspecialty field) or that they get famous enough to date supermodels (top research academic attendings)?

 

[deleted938090]

But how many kids are recruited D1 (med school) and become studs that they're drafted into the NBA (competitive surgical subspecialty field) or that they get famous enough to date supermodels (top research academic attendings)?

= )

 

[Alakazam123]

The reason you're getting a lot of attitude in your replies is because the questions you're asking are either ultra specific or irrelevant. It's good to have specific questions about a specialty but you're asking about super subspecialized optho sugery and whether you can co-collaborate on tumor surgery as an attending neurosurgeon. Questions that most on this forum would not be able to answer appropriately and questions better addressed to the appropriate academic subspecialty surgeons who have a better picture on the longitudinal aspects of their respective fields. Have you shadowed any yet? You mention about beefing your resume from day one. So the questions you should be asking is "how to maximize my chances of getting into medical school", "what ECs, grades, etc will make me stand out for X specialty field", "what should I do in medical school to position myself to best match into X field" not about your post-training research opportunities when a majority of MS4s applying neurosurgery don't even get into neurosurgery. I have a friend who is finishing up his last year of neurosurgery and he can't wait to be done. Their training is ****ing brutal and depending on the place you end up in you could be on call for months at an end. Did you consider these aspects of the field?

It really is like a high school JV basketball player asking "hey, when I make the NBA can I get to date supermodels?". The general answer is probably. But how many kids are recruited D1 (med school) and become studs that they're drafted into the NBA (competitive surgical subspecialty field) or that they get famous enough to date supermodels (top research academic attendings)?

Your statements always supply me with a good dose of reality, which I suppose I need at this point in time. My apologies for any inconvenience my question may have caused you.

Cheers!!

 

[getdown]

Your statements always supply me with a good dose of reality, which I suppose I need at this point in time. My apologies for any inconvenience my question may have caused you.

Cheers!!

Don't get me wrong. I am not inconvenienced. I just want you to understand that there's a very, very long and difficult road ahead of you if your intentions are to be in a super competitive field. Those fields may seem glamorous now but trust me when I say their residents look haggard when you see them. Their training is one of the hardest you do in medicine just by the fact that they accept so few residents every year and are responsible for not only covering the ORs, staffing clinics and rounding on post surgical floor patients as well as being on call for consults, admissions, etc overnight. Life gets much better after training but during can be pretty brutal.

 

[Alakazam123]

The reason you're getting a lot of attitude in your replies is because the questions you're asking are either ultra specific or irrelevant. It's good to have specific questions about a specialty but you're asking about super subspecialized optho sugery and whether you can co-collaborate on tumor surgery as an attending neurosurgeon. Questions that most on this forum would not be able to answer appropriately and questions better addressed to the appropriate academic subspecialty surgeons who have a better picture on the longitudinal aspects of their respective fields. Have you shadowed any yet? You mention about beefing your resume from day one. So the questions you should be asking is "how to maximize my chances of getting into medical school", "what ECs, grades, etc will make me stand out for X specialty field", "what should I do in medical school to position myself to best match into X field" not about your post-training research opportunities when a majority of MS4s applying neurosurgery don't even get into neurosurgery. I have a friend who is finishing up his last year of neurosurgery and he can't wait to be done. Their training is ****ing brutal and depending on the place you end up in you could be on call for months at an end. Did you consider these aspects of the field?

It really is like a high school JV basketball player asking "hey, when I make the NBA can I get to date supermodels?". The general answer is probably. But how many kids are recruited D1 (med school) and become studs that they're drafted into the NBA (competitive surgical subspecialty field) or that they get famous enough to date supermodels (top research academic attendings)?

Also, to address your other questions:

Have you shadowed any yet? Yes, I have shadowed 2 neurosurgeons, a neurologist, and a urologist. I also partook in a once in a lifetime opportunity to shadow residents in a cadaver lab and got some exposure to the autograft technique, and how to fix a thoracic fracture. It was pretty neat, they even let me use the curette and scoop out the disk. Based on my limited knowledge, here's what I liked and disliked:

1. Neurosurgery:

a) Likes: The intricacy and delicacy required in each procedure. One wrong slit or move and that patient's life may be permanently damaged. So the surgeons who I shadowed were so strong, yet so delicate at the same time. The prospect of working on a procedure that requires such delicacy is enticing to me.

b) Dislikes: I don't know if this was just the surgeons who I shadowed, but the procedures were VERY repetitive. Decompression, followed by another decompression, and yet another, and yet another, and FINALLY....a laminectomy. Then, the following day was the same pattern. The first neurosurgeon I shadowed was a non-academic and this was his schedule essentially. I think he removed one brain tumor, but that's about it.

The second neurosurgeon who I shadowed, the MD/PhD, primarily operated on pituitary tumors. So that is what he did day in and day out. Very little spinal cord damage, spinal tumors, hydrocephalus, stroke, etc.

2. Neurology:

a) Likes: OMG the field is so immensely vast and unending, and filled with opportunities fo research. I hear people on here complaining about how there are no procedures in neurology, but in my opinion, that was part of the beauty of the field. You were forced to rely almost entirely on the patient history and make the diagnosis. It was like doing detective work every day, and probably one of the coolest things I'd ever seen.

Furthermore, I don't know if you know this about me, but I was a neurology patient for about 6 months. I got Parsonage Turner Syndrome, a peripheral neuropathy, and was paralyzed in both arms from my shoulder down to my elbow. This is a HUGE reason for my interest in neurology, specifically clinical neurophysiology. In addition, it is a reason why I want to do research here, so that I can help people out who have similar problems.

b) Dislikes: Very few apart from the fact that I can barely work with my hands. I like working with my Hands.

3. Urology:

a) Likes: Very few. Apart from the fact that kidney stones run in my family and I suppose I wanna help people who have kidney stones.

b) Dislikes: I felt the procedures were very repetitive, and I don't see myself being interested in sticking tubes into people's lower extremities.

 

[Alakazam123]

Don't get me wrong. I am not inconvenienced. I just want you to understand that there's a very, very long and difficult road ahead of you if your intentions are to be in a super competitive field. Those fields may seem glamorous now but trust me when I say their residents look haggard when you see them. Their training is one of the hardest you do in medicine just by the fact that they accept so few residents every year and are responsible for not only covering the ORs, staffing clinics and rounding on post surgical floor patients as well as being on call for consults, admissions, etc overnight. Life gets much better after training but during can be pretty brutal.

Thank you for your lucid and informative response. I will keep these things in mind as I go forward. Hopefully, serendipity brings us together to meet one day. You seem like a really cool person with a deep understanding on the intricacies of making the right decision. I could use your tutelage for sure 🙂

 

[getdown]

Also, to address your other questions:

Have you shadowed any yet? Yes, I have shadowed 2 neurosurgeons, a neurologist, and a urologist. I also partook in a once in a lifetime opportunity to shadow residents in a cadaver lab and got some exposure to the autograft technique, and how to fix a thoracic fracture. It was pretty neat, they even let me use the curette and scoop out the disk. Based on my limited knowledge, here's what I liked and disliked:

1. Neurosurgery:

a) Likes: The intricacy and delicacy required in each procedure. One wrong slit or move and that patient's life may be permanently damaged. So the surgeons who I shadowed were so strong, yet so delicate at the same time. The prospect of working on a procedure that requires such delicacy is enticing to me.

b) Dislikes: I don't know if this was just the surgeons who I shadowed, but the procedures were VERY repetitive. Decompression, followed by another decompression, and yet another, and yet another, and FINALLY....a laminectomy. Then, the following day was the same pattern. The first neurosurgeon I shadowed was a non-academic and this was his schedule essentially. I think he removed one brain tumor, but that's about it.

The second neurosurgeon who I shadowed, the MD/PhD, primarily operated on pituitary tumors. So that is what he did day in and day out. Very little spinal cord damage, spinal tumors, hydrocephalus, stroke, etc.

2. Neurology:

a) Likes: OMG the field is so immensely vast and unending, and filled with opportunities fo research. I hear people on here complaining about how there are no procedures in neurology, but in my opinion, that was part of the beauty of the field. You were forced to rely almost entirely on the patient history and make the diagnosis. It was like doing detective work every day, and probably one of the coolest things I'd ever seen.

Furthermore, I don't know if you know this about me, but I was a neurology patient for about 6 months. I got Parsonage Turner Syndrome, a peripheral neuropathy, and was paralyzed in both arms from my shoulder down to my elbow. This is a HUGE reason for my interest in neurology, specifically clinical neurophysiology. In addition, it is a reason why I want to do research here, so that I can help people out who have similar problems.

b) Dislikes: Very few apart from the fact that I can barely work with my hands. I like working with my Hands.

3. Urology:

a) Likes: Very few. Apart from the fact that kidney stones run in my family and I suppose I wanna help people who have kidney stones.

b) Dislikes: I felt the procedures were very repetitive, and I don't see myself being interested in sticking tubes into people's lower extremities.

This is wonderful to hear. I can sense that your interests are genuine and you have a compelling backstory to why you're interested in neurology and neurosurgery. This will make you more relatable come interview day and also provide that passion to get you through those slog-of-a-day residency hours and remind you why you're working so hard.

Unfortunately, with the way things are in medicine these days everybody is specializing and finding their niche. As you have evidently seen some surgeons will only do a few types of surgeries. Some orthopedic surgeons will only do total joints. Some neurosurgeons will only do pitutiary surgery or laminectomies. Some urologists only do robotic prostatectomies. A lot of this is because data has shown that surgeons that do a lot of one type of procedure have better patient outcomes, less complications and are faster (more revenue) and they can bill themselves as the expert in X field. Which is also something that hospitals like. They can promote themselves as a center for X excellence. There are still plenty that do a variety of stuff but they likely won't be as good or efficient as the guy that does only one thing.

As they always say in medical school. The first big fork in the road is surgical vs medicine. You have to decide what you like more: working with your hands or the intellectual stimulation. Personally I think neurologists are some of the smartest people in medicine because they need to understand the complex nature of the nervous system and diagnose neurological issues with minimal input from the patients. But it's just frustrating that there really is not much you can do in terms of interventions for patients with neurologic issues as a lot of them are insidiously progressive in nature.

You're obviously a very thoughtful individual and you think far in the future but just don't lose sight of what's immediately in front of you as well. 😉

 

[Goro]

Also, do you know many MD's only who do bench research as opposed to MD/PhD?

My very first research rotation in grad school was with an MD who ran a lab. Ditto my third. The first one was a horrible experience...bunch of cliquish bastards, that lab was.

 

[Alakazam123]

This is wonderful to hear. I can sense that your interests are genuine and you have a compelling backstory to why you're interested in neurology and neurosurgery. This will make you more relatable come interview day and also provide that passion to get you through those slog-of-a-day residency hours and remind you why you're working so hard.

Unfortunately, with the way things are in medicine these days everybody is specializing and finding their niche. As you have evidently seen some surgeons will only do a few types of surgeries. Some orthopedic surgeons will only do total joints. Some neurosurgeons will only do pitutiary surgery or laminectomies. Some urologists only do robotic prostatectomies. A lot of this is because data has shown that surgeons that do a lot of one type of procedure have better patient outcomes, less complications and are faster (more revenue) and they can bill themselves as the expert in X field. Which is also something that hospitals like. They can promote themselves as a center for X excellence. There are still plenty that do a variety of stuff but they likely won't be as good or efficient as the guy that does only one thing.

As they always say in medical school. The first big fork in the road is surgical vs medicine. You have to decide what you like more: working with your hands or the intellectual stimulation. Personally I think neurologists are some of the smartest people in medicine because they need to understand the complex nature of the nervous system and diagnose neurological issues with minimal input from the patients. But it's just frustrating that there really is not much you can do in terms of interventions for patients with neurologic issues as a lot of them are insidiously progressive in nature.

You're obviously a very thoughtful individual and you think far in the future but just don't lose sight of what's immediately in front of you as well. 😉

Alright, so now that we've gotten those things resolved. Here are some more relevant questions:

1. I am taking 1 gap year before applying (which leads to a 2nd gap year inadvertently). I am currently an MA candidate doing bench research. What can I do during my second gap year to make myself more competitive for good medical schools? (I am very interested in the 3 yr thing they have at NYU).

2. I am retaking my MCAT. If I raise my score sufficiently, and also kick some serious a** in my MA program and have a productive 2 gap years, how will that make me look for medical schools? [my undergrad was weak]

3. I kinda asked this before, but should I make the decision of surgery vs medicine early on even before I do the applications, so that I can hit the ground running if I do choose surgery?

 

[getdown]

Alright, so now th What at we've gotten those things resolved. Here are some more relevant questions:

1. I am taking 1 gap year before applying (which leads to a 2nd gap year inadvertently). I am currently an MA candidate doing bench research. What can I do during my second gap year to make myself more competitive for good medical schools? (I am very interested in the 3 yr thing they have at NYU).

2. I am retaking my MCAT. If I raise my score sufficiently, and also kick some serious a** in my MA program and have a productive 2 gap years, how will that make me look for medical schools? [my undergrad was weak]

3. I kinda asked this before, but should I make the decision of surgery vs medicine early on even before I do the applications, so that I can hit the ground running if I do choose surgery?

1. From what I can tell from your previous posts. Your overall GPA is around a 3.5 which isn't terrible for MD schools and definitely around the average for DO schools. So it depends on your MCAT performance. However, you do have a compelling reason for why your GPA is lower than average given your illness. This is something you should definitely mention in your PS as well as secondary questions asking about overcoming adversity, etc. Doing research is great and being able to publish will be icing on the cake. I personally would say that if you get involved in clinical research (chart reviews, data analysis of retrospective studies) you'll likely get more bang for your buck as you can mine a lot more data and publish at a higher rate. You've already done shadowing so what other ECs are you currently involved in? Volunteering? Doing some work in a neuro rehab center given your own illness could make for a stronger story for you.

With regards to the 3 year NYU program. It's an accelerated program that seems to primarily feed into their own residency programs. They stated you can choose between 20 different field through this program but the link they have takes you to a list of all of their available post-graduate training programs. A lot of these accelerated programs tend to focus on primary care, of which neurology, neurosurgery and other competitive subspecialty fields are not generally considered one. However, if you are interested in the NYU program you should email them and ask specifics.

2. I'm not fully familiar with the MA program you're talking about. Can you give me some clarification? Is it like a post-bac program or is it more a graduate level program? The consensus is that graduate school grades do not have the same weight as your undergrad grades. However, excelling at your current program definitely won't hurt you. Again, I think you have a legitimate reason for your underperforming in undergrad given your illness.

3. No, you should not make a decision of surgery vs medicine before medical school. You can have a preference but it really takes experiencing the field as a medical student on rotations to really have a good idea of what it truly is like to be in that field. Shadowing gives you a glimpse of what they do but when you're in a rotation you see everything they do. This is why most of us say that a majority of students entering medical school with a particular field in mind generally change once they go through the rotation. I personally was thinking internal medicine and cardiology but decided I didn't like the rounding, clinics and social services aspect of it and decided to do Anesthesia instead, since, I too, like to use my hands. What you can do is keep your options open and get yourself involved in research early in medical school. A lot of the competitive fields heavily favor applicants who have research backgrounds. And it doesn't have to be in the same field either. You can get yourself involved in some clinical research early on and try to get some pubs out of it and you can still use that on your CV. Once you found your field you can do more research in that field specifically. Another thing that is commonly done by students is to take the year between MS2 and MS3 off as a research year. They try to do research in the field they plan on applying to residency for during this year.

 

[Crayola227]

Furthermore, does your statement about how you can't do enough clinical medicine to stay relevant AND do highly productive bench research apply primarily to surgical subspecialties, or does it apply to non-surgical subspecialties as well?

That wasn't quite what I said. Just that it would be extremely difficult in most specialties to have significant administrative duties such as being head of a department, AND a substantial about of time in clinic AND a substantial amount of time doing basic science bench research. Something will give. Just balancing any 2 of those 3 will stretch your time as it is.

 

[Crayola227]

Also, do you know many MD's only who do bench research as opposed to MD/PhD?

No I don't know many. It is certainly possible to get there, but typically those people have experiences both prior to, during, and after, medical school that make that possible.

 

[Crayola227]

Thank you for your informative response. What I meant by the "clinical side" is the following: Suppose you want to do research on a particular brain tumor, or on spinal motor neuron regeneration for spinal cord repair. Can you sit down with a PhD or MD/PhD in the field in your institution, and set up a joint research project, wherein they would do the basic science work, and you would provide the human samples, etc.?

And, at this point, if you and the professor were to discover a new therapy for spinal motor neuron repair, could you then try to patent it is what I was wondering...bc, there is a professor at my university in Biomedical Engineering who just patented some new nanoparticle design, and formed a start-up.

Collaboration is quite common.

Frankly, most of this is what you can expect to learn by talking with admin, depts, and advisors from your school.