DO or reapply

[camisho]

I have a question for some, if not all, of you. If you got into a DO school, would you go if you knew for certain you would get into an MD school if you applied the next year?

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[scubadiva]

I applied to only DO schools. I have reasons for this .

If you are not comfortable being a DO, don't DO it. It might make you feel sad. Be honest with yourself. So, if you have to wait one more year for an MD school to make you happy, then I would wait.

If on the other hand the type of degree doesn't make a difference to you, then I would go DO.

 

[Insert]

I would go to the DO school for the following reasons.

1. I think DO is better than MD.

2. I wouldn't want to wait a year just to go to medical school.

3. There would be no guarantee you would get accepted to the MD school you want.

4. Reason 3 is irrelevant because I wouldn't want to go to an MD school anyway.

 

[Yosh]

I agree with the above posters...in the sense that you need to be happy and comfortable with where you are going to school and the degree you will get.
I have met many DO's that HATE the fact that they are osteopaths instead of allopaths....and it does no one any good...

If you are going to attend DO school....make sure you want to be a DO...

best of luck to all...

 

[4 Ever]

Originally posted by Insert
I would go to the DO school for the following reasons.

1. I think DO is better than MD.

2. I wouldn't want to wait a year just to go to medical school.

3. There would be no guarantee you would get accepted to the MD school you want.

4. Reason 3 is irrelevant because I wouldn't want to go to an MD school anyway.

i would ignore this posters post... as you can pick up in his post, he appears to have disgust for MDs (possibly due to repeated rejections). You shouldnt use HIS reasons for why you should be applying to DO or MD. determine if its worth pursuing or not

 

[Insert]

Originally posted by 4 Ever
i would ignore this posters post... as you can pick up in his post, he appears to have disgust for MDs (possibly due to repeated rejections). You shouldnt use HIS reasons for why you should be applying to DO or MD. determine if its worth pursuing or not

I would ignore this poster's post. For some reason he doesn't like me. I was never rejected from an MD school probably because I only applied to DO schools and I got in my first time applying anywhere.

 

[Monkeyguts]

I have a question for some, if not all, of you. If you got into a DO school, would you go if you knew for certain you would get into an MD school if you applied the next year?

Hmm, how can one be certain of acceptance?

 

[Insert]

Originally posted by 4 Ever
i would ignore this posters post... as you can pick up in his post, he appears to have disgust for MDs (possibly due to repeated rejections). You shouldnt use HIS reasons for why you should be applying to DO or MD. determine if its worth pursuing or not

Vous etes jaloux parce qu'il y a les gens comme je qui choisissent seulement la medecine osteopathic. Je suis fier d'etre un futur medecin osteopathic.

There's some french for you.

 

[haujun]

I know USUHS (Iniformed Univesity of Health Science) have a program for some students who have been placed on waitlist and get offered to some sort of school's sponsored Post Bacc. program. If a student maintains a B average or better then he or she will get into the medical school.

An applicant only gets into DO school. The best alternative action is reapply to MD school.

Opportunity Cost (the cost of doing next best available course of action) = Current Living's Expense (20,000) + one year of physician's income (100,000) == X (120,000)

Thus economically if the opportunity cost is high then it is more likely than this individual will go to DO school.

However If the benefit of MD is greater than X (cost) then go to MD school.

From MS II

 

[Amy B]

Well, beware of some of those post-bac programs, they can be harder than the first year of med school.

The dean of admissions at MCV was telling me about their post-bac program. She said alot of reapplicants go into that 1 year program so they can reapply the following year. She said it is harder than their first year of med school and they have lots of students either fail the classes or don't maintain a B and have their GPA fall, or get so overwhelmed they drop the program. It is a 27 credit program to be completed in 2 semesters, made up of all grad level courses. Grad level full time is only 9 credits. To get in 27, you have to take 14 credits per semester, well over the normal grad level.

All I'm saying is even in these programs there is no guarentee you can get a B average, complete all the courses or get into the med school unless they can guarentee they will accept you and I mean you get it in writing.

Be wary, please.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Originally posted by Insert
I would go to the DO school for the following reasons.

1. I think DO is better than MD.

2. I wouldn't want to wait a year just to go to medical school.

3. There would be no guarantee you would get accepted to the MD school you want.

4. Reason 3 is irrelevant because I wouldn't want to go to an MD school anyway.

It's not better. Here are some interesting posts from this Insert person who is making the DO profession look horrible. Look how he insults people constantly. Check it out before he edits the messages. Such rudeness talking down to nurses, MD's, etc. You will not make it ANYWHERE in this world with your attitue "internet tough guy". When we buy into his stuff, he reaches his goal. Let's just kill this thread.

Look at second post by Insert:


How about this one by him?

Here he is contradicting what he's said on this thread:

Look at these remarks he made:

Here is another very shallow remark:

Wow, look at this one

And a link to "worried"

 

[Insert]

What are you my stocker now. You've posted this same exact message in 2 other threads besides this one.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Originally posted by Insert
What are you my stocker now. You've posted this same exact message in 2 other threads besides this one.

No, I'm not your stalker . I just want people to know who they're dealing with. I hope it doesn't upset you.

 

[Insert]

Originally posted by OnMyWayThere
No, I'm not your stalker . I just want people to know who they're dealing with. I hope it doesn't upset you.

 

[EMRrn]

Originally posted by Insert
What are you my stocker now. You've posted this same exact message in 2 other threads besides this one.

I am sorry but can't resist..for someone going to med school you better work on the spelling

stalker vs stocker..I believe the latter is one that puts items on shelves in a retail stores..

 

[Insert]

Originally posted by EMRrn
I am sorry but can't resist..for someone going to med school you better work on the spelling

stalker vs stocker..I believe the latter is one that puts items on shelves in a retail stores..

Vous ne devez pas orthographier bien pour devenir un docteur. Tout que vous devez etre est intelligent et s'inquieter.

 

[Cowboy DO]

Originally posted by EMRrn
I am sorry but can't resist..for someone going to med school you better work on the spelling

stalker vs stocker..I believe the latter is one that puts items on shelves in a retail stores..

Dear Mr./Ms. Obvious,
You gotta be kidding me. I'm in no way defending Insert, but I am defending all the bad spellers, quick typers, those who suffer from agraphia, non spell check users, those who dont care. We all knew what he meant, besides in medicine we abbreviate everything.

 

[EMRrn]

Cowboy

Point taken...however, this guy is all over the place putting others down while boasting his superiority..that is the ONLY reason why I even posted it. He has posted derogatory comments about MDs, NPs, Nurses and of course the MALE nurse..that is why I couldn't resist. Anyone else...I wouldn't care or say a word.. Of course I am sure he could care less so I should not have wasted my energy..I figure he will get his eventually especially if he makes it into the healthcare arena.

 

[Cowboy DO]

No, you have a point. Sorry I jumped on you. it just hitts klose too home, ef u knoe what I meen.

 

[EMRrn]

cowboy

shure I due??? How was tht?

 

[JohnnyOU]

Originally posted by scubadiva
I applied to only DO schools. I have reasons for this .

If you are not comfortable being a DO, don't DO it. It might make you feel sad. Be honest with yourself. So, if you have to wait one more year for an MD school to make you happy, then I would wait.

If on the other hand the type of degree doesn't make a difference to you, then I would go DO.

camisho, take her advice...she makes good sense to me

~Johnny~

 

[jglemonade1]

I was in the same position last year. It was a huge dilemma for me, and I ultimately decided to apply again. I was not guaranteed admission, but about 80% sure that I had a great shot. I applied again and got accepted. I am glad I didn't go because I would be kicking myself now, since the D.O. school didn't seem like the right fit for me (way too expensive and far from home). If there are any doubts in your mind about D.O. school than why invest 4 years of your time and money into something you are half-hearted about. That is my opinion. Good Luck!

 

[PACtoDOC]

Its all about your own circumstances. I was a PA who was trained in an allopathic MD school as a PA. I worked in primary care (family medicine) for 4 years and saw the drawbacks of being an MD in this setting. Unfortunately, MD's are not trained to use their hands to diagnose or treat musculoskeletal problems, and the ones that know and use their hands taught themselves after MD school. But if I was not wanting to work in primary care, and I knew I wanted to do radiology or anesthesia, surgery or ortho, derm, etc.....I would have taken my MD acceptance instead of tunring it down. But I knew I wanted to practice primary care medicine where we all know that on any given day you can see 2 low back pain patients, 1 knee pain, 1 heel pain, 3 headaches, and other complaints relating to musculoskeletal problems. Very few MD's do anything more for these patients than prescribe meds, refer to PT, or give them a work excuse and a handout showing them some stretches. I love being able to release a plantar fascia, do soft tissue inhibition on paraspinous muscles, manip an aching spine, release a sacrum, provide suboccipital inhibition to the OA, and adjust the C-spine. And there are tons more techniques that I like as well that really make patients happy, even if we never ever proove they truly fix the problem permanently. My guess is any MD reading this doesn't even have a clue what I am talking about. And on top of that, we can do EVERYTHING else an MD can do without exception. And lastly, in Texas, my DO school is a state school so my tuition is dirt cheap compared to most states (8K per year!!). I would not recommend going to a DO school unless you want to use the skills you learn here. It can be very depressing having to spend hundreds of hours learning something you aren't into, and those hours are only additional burdens on top of your already rigorous medical school process.

 

[clumpymold]

Originally posted by Insert
I would go to the DO school for the following reasons.

1. I think DO is better than MD.

2. I wouldn't want to wait a year just to go to medical school.

3. There would be no guarantee you would get accepted to the MD school you want.

4. Reason 3 is irrelevant because I wouldn't want to go to an MD school anyway.

Can you elaborate more on this? Are you from the states or overseas (only asking because you posted French)? Would that make a difference?

And what's with the French? It's not like you even gave a reason why DO is better (only that YOU wanted to do it).

 

[greatdane]

Camisho, I beleive you are the OP...I would read PACtoDOC's post above very carefully, he/she is absolutly right on (BRAVO!!!). I am a 4th year MD student and it took me two years to get in. I must say the DO route was never an option for me because I knew what I wanted to do as a specialty, and although there are DO's in it, many programs look at MD's only...as PACtoDOC said

"But if I was not wanting to work in primary care, and I knew I wanted to do radiology or anesthesia, surgery or ortho, derm, etc.....I would have taken my MD acceptance instead of tunring it down

That being said...i am 32, and my PCP has been a DO for the past 12 years...and I would not change for anything. They are absolutly awesome! When I move, I will look for a good DO PCP again....but as stated above, when I had to have knee surgery, it was an MD....by choice, and by the fact you probably wont find many, orthopods that are DOs....same for Derm, radiology and what not....

So I think you also need to consider what you may want to do in the future, plus what you want to do personally...if it is MD, then keep applying

 

[PACtoDOC]

Hey Clump,

I realize you are seeking clarification from the French dude, but what about my post did you not understand? It basically answers all of your questions you just asked and more. If you are having a hard time understanding what I said, it is probably because you are not around medicine enough to know how valuable the skills I elude to actually are. Do some research on the AOA website or shadow a DO and see the real difference. Yes, there are plenty (maybe even a slim majority) of people that go to DO schools because they did not get accepted to MD schools or because they got waitlisted at MD schools. Some people are just limited by geography or just don't care as long as they get in somewhere. In Texas, there are 9 medical schools, 8 of which (including one DO school) are state schools. These 8 schools have their own lottery style match outside any AAMCAS application process. Most people who apply to medical school in Texas choose to apply to all 8 schools (one private school..Baylor does not not participate), because they only charge an extra 10 dollars for each school. Then after you interview, you rank the schools you interviewed at in order where you would like to attend, and on February 1st at midnight, the match occurs electronically and you can get on the website and see where you matched. So in Texas, it is more about getting in somewhere to some people, and MD vs DO is sort of lost in the mix. There are plenty of people in my class that chose our DO program number one on their match list, and plenty of them that did not. Some of the MD schools in Texas actually sent many of us a questionaire after the match asking why we did not choose their school, meaning if we had chosen them number one, we would have matched there. More and more people are turning to the DO degree because the public is slowly requiring their doctors to embrace some alternative medicine. Even though we really don't learn a great deal about alternative medicine, because manipulation used to be considered alternative, it is more common to find DO's embracing alternative medicine methods in general. Funny enough, most of the people in the top 10% of my class all chose to come to a DO program; what that means I do not know, but it means something I presume. Well, I hope you have some answers. Good luck.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Greatdane,

I am glad to see that you understand the reality of the MD/DO issue. One thing that I probably should elaborate on is the fact that there are actually a ton of DO specialists, but most of them go through DO specialty residencies. I really am not equiped to comment on whether or not DO specialty residencies expose one to enough pathology to be as competend as MDS counterparts because I have yet to rotate in a specialty. But percentage wise, my guess is that among DO's, specialists probably represent close to the same % they do in the MD world. GD, I think your exposure to DO's in specialty residencies is rare because it is still rare to find DO's among MD specialty programs in large numbers. That is because only about 5% of the nation's physicians are DO's, so even if they were accepted into MD residencies at the same rate as MD applicants, it would still be rare to see them there. But overall, nowadays it is quite feasible for a DO to specialize; it is quite easy to get into a DO specialty residency, and getting easier everyday to get into MD specialty residencies. I would love to see a day when DO's dominated most of the primary care specialties and vice versa for MD's. That way everyone going to a DO school would be going there knowing they wanted to practice primary care. The government could even subsidize these schools and the cost for them to encourage people to go primary care. But that is a long way off, and right now, there are still plenty of DO's wishing they had got into MD school. My guess is that in 50 years that will all be but forgotten, because either the MD's will be teaching manip (hence no need for DO programs any longer....probably all AMA schools at that point), or manip will not be taught at either school (again predicting no need for 2 separate degrees. MD's have done an incredible job of including preventive care, patient centered interviewing, and a more holistic approach in their education over the last 2 decades. That is why I think it is actually more offensive than reality for DO's to try and leverage influence by stating they "treat the whole person" while MD's do not. I trained in an allopathic PA school along with their medical school nearly 10 years ago and I actually feel like I got equally good "holistic" training. The only real difference unless you are at an old school MD program where they still teach all the basic sciences without the systems approach (and where research is the primary factor....UTSW Dallas!!), is that osteopathic manipulation is taught. And there are already schools that are beginning to teach OMT in MD programs, and there are even more residencies in primary care specialties (allopathic) that are teaching OMT and recruiting DO grads to help do so!! I plan on attending one of them.

 

[clumpymold]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
Hey Clump,

I realize you are seeking clarification from the French dude, but what about my post did you not understand? It basically answers all of your questions you just asked and more. If you are having a hard time understanding what I said, it is probably because you are not around medicine enough to know how valuable the skills I elude to actually are. Do some research on the AOA website or shadow a DO and see the real difference.

Oh, I DID read your post I was just wondering what HIS reason was. I've been around medicine for quite some time. I've been going at least once or twice a month for several hours (4-5) for my ENTIRE life (26+ years now). But I'm one of those rare cases that are born with a condition so it hasn't been a great journey for me but definitely strengthening.

Granted your skills are valuable (to a DO) but I have no intent on using those as I already know what I want to specialize in (immunology/allergy). Actually, do DOs have specialities? Do they have an immunology/allergy specialty? I assume no.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Clump,

Of course DO's have every single specialty as MD's. And here is a link to the one you asked about. And why are you even hanging out on this thread if you have made up your mind? Lost?

http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=lcl_spclty

 

[clumpymold]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
Clump,

Of course DO's have every single specialty as MD's. And here is a link to the one you asked about. And why are you even hanging out on this thread if you have made up your mind? Lost?

http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=lcl_spclty

Great! Thanks for that link!

Well, I was afraid I'd be asked this sort of question during an interview and not know what to say. I mean, I knew about DO schools but never had any intention on applying to any until reading these boards. If they asked me this question, other than a few thoughts I had, I wasn't sure what to say. I now have a few ideas based on the replies I've read. Thank you!!!

 

[PACtoDOC]

Best of luck to you Clump!! I am sure you will do great with your experience as a patient. Many a patient has become a better physician because of it

 

[clumpymold]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
Best of luck to you Clump!! I am sure you will do great with your experience as a patient. Many a patient has become a better physician because of it

Thank you! I truly appreciate your wishes. I hope my experiences will make me become a better physician as well.

 

[Chronotropic]

Granted your skills are valuable (to a DO) but I have no intent on using those as I already know what I want to specialize in (immunology/allergy).

A rep from a DO school that I interviewed at actually touched on this. He said the school would like it's grads to use manipulation whenever possible but obviously does not think or expect its grads in rads, opho, or the like to use it.

 

[PACtoDOC]

There are plenty of OMT techniques that would be applicable for allergy and immunology just so you know. Most specialties other than Path and Rads can use OMT to benefit their patient.

 

[Chronotropic]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
There are plenty of OMT techniques that would be applicable for allergy and immunology just so you know. Most specialties other than Path and Rads can use OMT to benefit their patient.

That is very interesting!

 

[Backpacker-DO2B]

I am sorry I usually don't get involved in this sort of discussion, and the medical philosophy you choose to practice is your own business. I speak as a person who was admitted to 6 medical schools (4 DO and 2 MD - the MD where my back up programs.) I cannot, however, let the implication stand that the DO profession is some sort red headed step child to the MD's. Osteopathy was formed at a time when medicine was primitive at best and crazy cures (such as lead and arsenicfor bleeding disorders) were the paradigm. While the two professions are more convergent today, there are fundamental differences (and not just OMT) - discover how osteopathic diagnosis can find a visceral problem (thru a somatovisceral reflex) initially thru a structural exam, or how chapman's points can cement in the practioner's mind a preliminary diagnosis of appendicitis. The very fact that you view the profession as a second class citizen in this way tells me you would never be happy with a DO behind your name, and you should wait until admitted into an MD program. This will avoid another self loathing DO within the profession. I wish you luck and great success on your attempt to enter medical school.

OSU-CHS
MS 2.8456

 

[skypilot]

Actually, do DOs have specialities? Do they have an immunology/allergy specialty? I assume no.

I laughed when I read this. There is still a misperception about DO being a completely separate profession. Over 65% of DOs do Allopathic (MD) residencies. DOs and MDs practice side by side in the same hospitals! The Radiology residency director at U Pitt is a DO, a professor of Orthopedic Surgery at Boston University is a DO, there are DOs doing their residencies at Harvard. It is not a separate profession. There are only slight differences in the undergraduate medical degree. Not trying to convince anybody here, just look at the back of your Allopathic medical school catalogs and see all the DOs before you make up your mind.

 

[specialkay]

Skypilot, backpacker and PACtoDOC,

YEA!!! People out there who understand the osteopathic tradition and philosophy. Kudos to all of you for posting intelligent, sane responses.

It appears as though pre-meds who use DO as a backup plan haven't really thought things out and when they get accepted (what we call on campus "really seeing the school in the morning with its makeup off") they freak when they think their specialty is at stake.

A little education about Osteopathy for the pre-meds should solve all this - starting at http://www.osteopathic.org/ should clear things up for any pre-MD.

Having only applied to Osteopathic schools and having held the position of Pre-Osteopathic advisor for the on-campus pre-health association, I've been helping people understand the similarities to allo and osteo on campus for three years.

It was hard to get people to understand the Osteo philosophy when they're focused on the $$$ and they think its less "dinero" (that's spanish for you insert, who obviously needs to get off his computer and get a life - hopefully you won't be at my school or its schooling time for you). With the right people - who are usually a bit more open minded about life in general - you can really find some great people to educate about Osteopathy. With others, their eyes glaze over when they hear DO and there's no reaching them.

We're all here to heal, help and serve. Good luck to everyone!!

 

[Amy B]

I know this OP posted this in January and may have already found about DO but I thought I would add these two links for others who are wondering since the application cycle is about to begin again.

http://archfami.ama-assn.org/cgi/co...red_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=archfami

http://www.aacom.org/

 

[jp_md2004]

I have a question for some, if not all, of you. If you got into a DO school, would you go if you knew for certain you would get into an MD school if you applied the next year?

****
reapply

 

[HoodyHoo]

No, don't reapply. why would you apply DO if you wouldn't go DO? that is ridiculous

 

[HeavyD]

I applied to both. I worked with MDs and DOs over the past several years in clinical settings and there was no noticable difference in their skills as providers, communicators, or people in general. As far as ability or lack there of to specialize, the only neuro-ophthamologist in my home town of 300K+ is a DO. Several cardio's, orthopods, ER's, etc. are DO's. This is a western city that does not have an extended history of a DO legacy either. I took an objective look at things and rated the programs as was appropriate for my goals. My first choice (MD) didn't accept me as is typical for my demographic in a small state-funded program. My second choice was a DO, in which I am now attending. The big difference between these two school came down to the cost. I was accepted into other programs, both MD and DO, but judging from my past experiences and subsequently seeing no difference when it comes down to it in the two degrees that allow you to practice as a physician, I chose based on (in this order): residency placement, board pass-rate, location. I may be different than the typical DO student (only making this statement based on published #'s) in that I did fairly well on the MCAT ~ national average for accepted students into MD programs. I expect to do fairly well on boards (as the only thing the MCAT is apparently good for is to predict perfomance on STEP 1). Knowing that the big 'deal' about applying to competitive residencies is scores, I feel that I will have as fair of a shot as anyone else come match day. Granted, there are residency programs that have a history of being DO-unfriendly, but I don't think I would be happy as either an MD of DO in such close-minded programs. Any one who thinks they will be a more skilled, competent provider than I simply because they possess an MD and I a DO have better have the sh** together big time or a very uncomfortable and humiliating schooling will take place in short order.
That's my take on the issue.

 

[HeavyD]

Yeah, stay the hell out! Beat it, get out of my schools!
Come on, clown, try not to show your juvenile side so blatently. The DO degree was created in the late 1800's as an alternative form of healing in lieu of the poisons and heavy medal elixirs that was used in common practice of that time.

There have been more than a few advances since that time which are now common for both (yes both) MD's and DO's. OMT is a tool; nothing more, nothing less. As a 4th year, I truely hope you accept this. Will the education one receives at a DO school guaranty he/she will be more compassionate, a more objective thinker, or a better communicator and practitioner of the medical arts than an allopath counterpart? You are lying to yourself if you think so.
It comes down to the person; you can be an ass as a DO as well as a MD. There is no particular course in the DO education titled "How not to be an Ass" and conversly there is no inverse to this in an MD's education.

So, back to the original post. Outside of the minority of DO graduates who go on to preach the doctrine of OMT and OMT above all else, you will receive an education that will prepare you well to become a competent physician in in most DO and MD programs. At a DO school you will have additional training outside of the MD's curriculum - OMT. I think learning OMT is a plus, another tool in the bag, if you will. Must one possess this tool to be a 'real' or 'better' doctor- no way. Everything else the same, you'll come out ahead with manual skills.

Reapply solely to MD programs or to both, I say both. Sooner in, sooner out. Besides, there aren't too many clowns like Scuples out there to put up with.

 

[raptor5]

Reapply, you don't want to go to an Osteopathic School.

 

[daelroy]

It depends. Being a DO will prevent you from entering some of those most prestigious residencies like Neurosurgery and Opthalmology. Of course, most MD's can't match in that field let alone DO's. But if you are one of those people that dreams of becoming a cosmetic surgeon or a neurosurgeon, I wouldn't wait for DO.

 

[Robz]

It depends. Being a DO will prevent you from entering some of those most prestigious residencies like Neurosurgery and Opthalmology. Of course, most MD's can't match in that field let alone DO's. But if you are one of those people that dreams of becoming a cosmetic surgeon or a neurosurgeon, I wouldn't wait for DO.

I wouldn't use the word prevent.

Difficult...but not impossible. There both DO plastics and neuro surgeons out there.

 

[Where2B]

I agree with the above poster. There is a slight twist being D.O., it is actually easier to attain competitive residency as a D.O. because they have their own osteopathic residency programs! Five of my current classmates this year matched Orthopedic surgery, one into ENT, at least one in Neurosurgery, at least one Ophthalmology, Radiology, even Derm. The official matched list at the school does not take into account some of these spots are offered only after internship. Since noone else can compete for these spots except D.O.s they already got it in my eyes.

I know for sure that these guys would not have gotten into these highly competitive residency going to an allopathic school. You can ask anyone at an M.D. school how hard it is to attain these competitive residency and they will not hesitate to tell you. So if you want Ophthalmology or Neurosurgery at an M.D. school, you better be the smartest, most studious, well-rounded, person at your school!! Even at an M.D. school, what you want doesn't neccessarily correlate on what you'll get. The same strong work habit you had as a pre-med must continue ten times more in medical school if you are to achieve what you want. Same with D.O. schools.

I chose to do an M.D. residency since my academic performance is honors (A's) at my school, high class rank, graduate degree, and my USMLE scores are high enough to get me in the door of many M.D. programs. But I know of guys who have gotten into more competitive programs (ie. the list above) with much less credentials. I already got what I want so looking back I don't really care how I got here.

So realistically the bottom line is that people who like to aim high, but fall short in credentials / rejections etc.. shouldn't be talking / thinking about NeuroSx or Ophtho at M.D. school. There's no chance!

 

[daelroy]

I agree with the above poster. There is a slight twist being D.O., it is actually easier to attain competitive residency as a D.O. because they have their own osteopathic residency programs! Five of my current classmates this year matched Orthopedic surgery, one into ENT, at least one in Neurosurgery, at least one Ophthalmology, Radiology, even Derm. The official matched list at the school does not take into account some of these spots are offered only after internship. Since noone else can compete for these spots except D.O.s they already got it in my eyes.

I know for sure that these guys would not have gotten into these highly competitive residency going to an allopathic school. You can ask anyone at an M.D. school how hard it is to attain these competitive residency and they will not hesitate to tell you. So if you want Ophthalmology or Neurosurgery at an M.D. school, you better be the smartest, most studious, well-rounded, person at your school!! Even at an M.D. school, what you want doesn't neccessarily correlate on what you'll get. The same strong work habit you had as a pre-med must continue ten times more in medical school if you are to achieve what you want. Same with D.O. schools.

I chose to do an M.D. residency since my academic performance is honors (A's) at my school, high class rank, graduate degree, and my USMLE scores are high enough to get me in the door of many M.D. programs. But I know of guys who have gotten into more competitive programs (ie. the list above) with much less credentials. I already got what I want so looking back I don't really care how I got here.

So realistically the bottom line is that people who like to aim high, but fall short in credentials / rejections etc.. shouldn't be talking / thinking about NeuroSx or Ophtho at M.D. school. There's no chance!

Actually, this is not true. Just look at the number of osteopathic residencies for Optho and Neurosurgery when compared to the number of DO graduates there simply aren't enough spots. There are only 10 DO Neurosurgery programs in the entire country and one of those hasn't been taking applicants in a while (OSUCOM).

Also, there are only 9 optho osteopathic programs in the country. Only one of those programs has a prelim year that linked to the opthalmology residency. In other words, you can't match for optho because you must apply during your intern year. Derm has NO linked intern/derm years. You must apply for those programs during your intern years as well. .

Getting an internship doesn't guarantee one a residency at that hospital. They may have gottein in as far as you are concerned but as far as the facts are concerned, they haven't gotten in. Yes, they may be just competing with DO's but they are competing with second, third and fourth year DO residents and DO residents from other programs which you failed to account for. My brother got into a DO derm position but this was after he applied twice and he scored a 98% on the COMLEX and was top 5% of his class with plenty of derm research. There were just not enough spots. Your friends may end up completing an internal medicine or family practice residency before they match into their fields. Osteopathic hospitals are notorious for this because they have trouble filling those spots with "regular" applicants so they promise people wanting to enter a specizlized field like derm or optho a spot in their program. But they don't tell them WHEN they will get a spot. And these people usually end up completing a family residency while they are waiting. This happened to my brother with derm. He was promised a derm spot out of school. We all celebrated thinking he would be in after his intern year. NOPE, didn't happen. Former grads applied and got in. The hospital basically needed him to fill their family practice position

DO's have to be much more competitive than MD's for these surgery spots. Ask idiopathic or anyone on the surgery forum how much tougher it is for a DO to match into these spots than an MD. I know we want to equate DO's with MD's in every manner but this is getting to the point that dishonesty is being propagated here. If the OP is concerned with this issue, I would advise him to post on the surgery forum here and ask DO surgeons if being a DO made it tougher into getting a surgery residency. Ask them what they think.

 

[Where2B]

I don't think there is any dishonesty in my original statement. I honestly believe that the people who I know got into Orthopedics, NeuroSx, EM, Ophtho, Radiology, etc... this year at my D.O. school would not have gotten these spots had they gotten into an M.D. school. I agree that there are limited osteopathic spots. I agree that not everyone get what they want at osteopathic schools. I also agree that it is much tougher to attain M.D. residencies in these specialties. So in that sense it had been "easier" for them. I just don't believe someone who is repeatedly rejected from M.D. schools think he/she is in the same level of competition as the M.D. applicant.

I apologize if my statement had misconstrue someone to think that I am propagating D.O. before M.D. That's not what I meant at all. Any sensible person reading stuff on forums has the freedom to choose and the ultimate judgement and decision is theirs. I am trying to point out that if you had two applicants with the same average stats and one at an M.D. school and the other at a D.O. school, and both wanted say Orthopedic surgery who do you think have a better chance? The M.D. orthopedist residents I've met are all AOA (Alpha Omega Alpha), sky high USMLEs, tons of other goodies credentials. While the D.O. orthopedist wannabes mostly rotate at every ortho sites they can find and standing around all day in the OR /clinic next to attending orthopods kissing their asses until it becomes necrotic hoping that they get selected. I say most not all because I do know many D.O.s who are very well qualified and at the top of their class in order to get these spots. So you can see that an average Joe has a better chance in that sense (it's a weird side effect). And I don't think anyone who is at the bottom of their class, or gets repeated rejections everywhere should even think about competitive residency unless they are willling to turn around and prove themselves otherwise with excellent numbers later on.

Of course if people already gotten into an M.D. school than none of this discussion is really necessary. Yes, D.O. school do push heavily for you go to into primary care, but if you got the grades, the scores, no one can deny you anything. D.O schools are by far no way better than M.D. school. unless you want to specialize in OMT or perhaps primary care. Nothing is guaranteed in life anywhere, you must earn your place. Once again for the people who couldn't get themselves into an M.D. school than you can't be picky! Alright?.......

 

[daelroy]

I am trying to point out that if you had two applicants with the same average stats and one at an M.D. school and the other at a D.O. school, and both wanted say Orthopedic surgery who do you think have a better chance? The M.D. orthopedist residents I've met are all AOA (Alpha Omega Alpha), sky high USMLEs, tons of other goodies credentials. While the D.O. orthopedist wannabes mostly rotate at every ortho sites they can find and standing around all day in the OR /clinic next to attending orthopods kissing their asses until it becomes necrotic hoping that they get selected. I say most not all because I do know many D.O.s who are very well qualified and at the top of their class in order to get these spots. So you can see that an average Joe has a better chance in that sense (it's a weird side effect). And I don't think anyone who is at the bottom of their class, or gets repeated rejections everywhere should even think about competitive residency unless they are willling to turn around and prove themselves otherwise with excellent numbers later on.

Has this really been your experience? This is really interesting. I'm not saying you are wrong but in my experience, the complete and utter opposite has occurred. I have noticed that DO applicants have to be much tougher than their MD counterparts even when applying to osteopathic orthopedic surgeries. I have noticed with DO applicants, class ranks and grades count almost as much as COMLEX scores. Whereas, I know a ton of MD who were not AOA that matched into their residency of choice by scoring 240+ on the USMLE and getting good clinical grades. It seems like osteopathic residencies place much more emphasis on class rank than MD schools because DO's don't have nationally recognized honor society like AOA and Jr. AOA. Sure, there are some DO "honor" societies but not every DO school has it and each school has their own way of admitting students to it so for all intensive purpose DO schools lack their version of AOA.

Also most MD schools are graded on some version of a pass/fail system. I know MD schools that don't use class rank at all. They divide their students into 1/3's and the top 1/3 makes AOA. And since AOA is recognized as being prestigious, most MD residency directors rarely look at the student's class rank. However, with DO students, there is no such thing as the DO version of AOA. A DO student can't just say he is in DO AOA and get away with it. Osteopathic directors examine his class rank very carefully. And in order to get a high class rank, you have to succeed in basic sciences which tranlates to higher competition as a DO students. That's why the DO orthopedic, neurosurgery, derm and optho students are impressive as hell. Almost all of them are ranked in the top 5% of their class. Your basic science grades count much more as a DO student than an MD student because of all this. And I'm sure some DO students break the mold by schmoozing their way in but there are MD students that do the same thing so this is the exception not the rule, The DO's who matched into competitive residencies were usually in the top 5% of their class. It's not often that you see a DO student ranked in the top 1/3 match into a prestigious field because he aced the COMLEX. It doesn't happen very often. WIth DO's, class rank means a lot.