Do program directors talk about applicants together?

[bestcoast]

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Why do program directors ask us about the other programs I am also looking for?

That was the only thing I did not feel comfortable talking....

I mean, is it legal for one to call the other and ask, "did XXX apply to you guys? what do you guys think about her?"

 

[Valadi]

I'm not a program director... but I've anecdotally heard that program directors do sometimes talk with each other about applicants. Especially in really small fields like plastics or rad onc. I'd be interested in hearing what an actual program director has to say about this..

 

[smq123]

Why do program directors ask us about the other programs I am also looking for?

That was the only thing I did not feel comfortable talking....

I mean, is it legal for one to call the other and ask, "did XXX apply to you guys? what do you guys think about her?"

I believe that it's legal for them to call each other and ask about individual applicants. I find it hard to believe, though, that this would happen very often. Most program directors are pretty busy, between managing residents and seeing their own patients.

I HAVE been told, by former program directors, that many specialties have program director email list-servs. I have heard stories of applicants who did something REALLY bad (no-showed to an interview, insulted a program coordinator, etc.) who were discussed in emails that other PDs at other programs saw. As you can imagine, that's fairly rare. You have to do something REALLY egregious to be discussed.

As for asking about what other programs you're looking at, it might be just to make small talk. Or to see which parts of the country you're really interested in. Or to gauge how likely you are to come to that program, based on what other programs nearby you're looking at. It might not mean anything at all.

 

[QofQuimica]

I never liked being asked that question either. I mean, who cares? I went there to interview for their program, not to talk about other programs. Would they have found it appropriate if I asked them which other applicants from my med school they planned to interview? But when you're a beggar, best not to act like a chooser. I think that question is basically a way of asking, "What are you looking for in a residency program?" At least that's how I interpreted it. So I discussed in general what I was looking for (academic program, strong in my subspecialty of interest, geographic location if applicable, etc.). Usually that was as far as they probed. I did go on one interview where the PD kept pressing me to name names, to the point that it became rather obnoxious. That program ended up low on my rank list.

 

[PMPMD]

I would this practice would be reserved for extremes: very small fields, and either the most stellar applicants, or the absolute disasters (drunk at dinner, etc.)

 

[Law2Doc]

Why do program directors ask us about the other programs I am also looking for?

That was the only thing I did not feel comfortable talking....

I mean, is it legal for one to call the other and ask, "did XXX apply to you guys? what do you guys think about her?"

Most PDs in the same specialty know each other and many talk. I've definitely heard our PD talking to other PDs on the phone about specific applicants.

 

[Dirt]

I think PDs are just genuinely curious who the competition is.

 

[mcl]

I think PDs are just genuinely curious who the competition is.

This.

Knowing where else you applied/interviewed gives us a few clues as to what you are looking for in a program and where our program might fit. Most of the time that kind of information helps us formulate our "pitch" as the program that has whatever it is you are looking for. It's also an easy way to make conversation when an interviewer is trying to fill 20 minutes and can't think of anything else to ask. Definitely NOT intended to make you feel uncomfortable.

 

[belle54321]

I feel like most program directors already have an idea how competitive an applicant you are based on your application. (Of course, if they are a top program, they assume you are also looking at other top programs.) But I do get a sense that they want to know which geographic areas you are looking at. Do you think PDs will rank someone lower if they have doubts about an applicant's willingness to move to a different city/geographic area?

 

[mcl]

I feel like most program directors already have an idea how competitive an applicant you are based on your application. (Of course, if they are a top program, they assume you are also looking at other top programs.) But I do get a sense that they want to know which geographic areas you are looking at. Do you think PDs will rank someone lower if they have doubts about an applicant's willingness to move to a different city/geographic area?

It might factor in, but generally they rank highest the people they want most regardless of how they think the applicant will rank the program. That's really the way the Match works best on both sides of the equation. But if I know you are looking at programs from across the country, I'll steer the conversation to talk about the benefits of my region, and specifically my program. If I know you're looking at a lot of community programs with a few university/academic centers thrown in, I'll talk more about our family-friendly feel and the continuity clinic experience. If I know you're looking at programs that are research oriented, I'll make sure you meet some of my basic-science faculty, etc.

My experience is that once we get to the interview phase, my job is to find out what a candidate is looking for in a program and make sure everyone sees something to like during their visit. There are many ways to do this, the least subtle of which is to ask where else the candidate is interviewing.

 

[turkeyjerky]

This.

Knowing where else you applied/interviewed gives us a few clues as to what you are looking for in a program and where our program might fit. Most of the time that kind of information helps us formulate our "pitch" as the program that has whatever it is you are looking for. It's also an easy way to make conversation when an interviewer is trying to fill 20 minutes and can't think of anything else to ask. Definitely NOT intended to make you feel uncomfortable.

Good to know, although you should know that this kind of question most definitely does make some applicants uncomfortable.

 

[Socrates25]

Program directors are already given instruction on which questions are taboo--questions about race, pregnancy, etc. The question of "which programs are you applying to" should be added to that list.

 

[QofQuimica]

Program directors are already given instruction on which questions are taboo--questions about race, pregnancy, etc. The question of "which programs are you applying to" should be added to that list.

I agree. Not that it stops people from asking illegal questions, either, and I would advise female students in particular to expect them. As a nontraditional female applicant, I was asked questions about my marital status and whether I had children at a few interviews. I think again that the intentions of the interviewers who ask these questions are usually good. They want to be able to tell you about resources available for supporting spouses, daycare, schools, etc. that someone with a family would want to know about. But questioning along these lines is still completely inappropriate and uncomfortable for the interviewee if they don't wish to discuss those topics. Which I for one did not.

 

[HumbleMD]

I agree. Not that it stops people from asking illegal questions, either, and I would advise female students in particular to expect them. As a nontraditional female applicant, I was asked questions about my marital status and whether I had children at a few interviews. I think again that the intentions of the interviewers who ask these questions are usually good. They want to be able to tell you about resources available for supporting spouses, daycare, schools, etc. that someone with a family would want to know about. But questioning along these lines is still completely inappropriate and uncomfortable for the interviewee if they don't wish to discuss those topics. Which I for one did not.

Most data has shown that, yes, people ask lots of illegal questions (like "where else are you applying"). Illegal questions are usually asked by faculty interviewers who are simply unaware of the rules.

It certainly doesn't make it any less awkward though..

 

[ThePursuit]

Seriously? Getting asked where you are applying to makes you uncomfortable? I've been asked that a lot. It's not like you're cheating on them. They know you're looking at other places.... it's a match. I guess I never even thought about it. Now, if they were using that segue into some type of "where will you rank us compared to them", I guess that's a different story.

 

[HumbleMD]

Seriously? Getting asked where you are applying to makes you uncomfortable? I've been asked that a lot. It's not like you're cheating on them. They know you're looking at other places.... it's a match. I guess I never even thought about it. Now, if they were using that segue into some type of "where will you rank us compared to them", I guess that's a different story.

That's where it always invariably goes. Which is why the questions sucks.

 

[MissAmanda]

at what stage in the process does this talking usually happen? Pre or post-interview offer?

The fact that PDs talk to one another concerns me - I am applying to one competitive specialty next year and one less competitive one, it seems that their talking with one another could make it known that I am applying to two different fields - I can just imagine the conversation, "Did you know that applicant x is applying to us as a backup!?" and... reject.

 

[gutonc]

at what stage in the process does this talking usually happen? Pre or post-interview offer?

The fact that PDs talk to one another concerns me - I am applying to one competitive specialty next year and one less competitive one, it seems that their talking with one another could make it known that I am applying to two different fields - I can just imagine the conversation, "Did you know that applicant x is applying to us as a backup!?" and... reject.

Your post makes me so glad that I bookmarked this thread. The conversation you hypothesize is quite likely to happen in your situation. Caveat applior.

 

[MissAmanda]

Your post makes me so glad that I bookmarked this thread. The conversation you hypothesize is quite likely to happen in your situation. Caveat applior.

oh man, that is bad. really bad. I feel sorry for him or her.

so you're saying even if I do everything I can right with letters, etc, they will likely still find out about one another... even if I apply to one program only per institution? It makes me wonder ... should I really just apply to one program at a time and go with a backup and not the more competitive program, or risk not matching? I wouldn't know how else to get around this.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

In the thread linked, the APPLICANT let the cat out of the bag by sending the wrong letters to programs.

PD's in competitive fields with small numbers of programs/spots might talk to each other. In fields that are bigger with many spots and programs, it's very unlikely.

In the situation above, PD's from different fields essentially never talk to each other, except perhaps in the same institution. If I see an application that looks like someone interested in Rads, I MIGHT contact the rads program to see if they applied. But it would be impossible for me to contact other rads programs.

 

[cameraGEEK]

In the thread linked, the APPLICANT let the cat out of the bag by sending the wrong letters to programs.

PD's in competitive fields with small numbers of programs/spots might talk to each other. In fields that are bigger with many spots and programs, it's very unlikely.

In the situation above, PD's from different fields essentially never talk to each other, except perhaps in the same institution. If I see an application that looks like someone interested in Rads, I MIGHT contact the rads program to see if they applied. But it would be impossible for me to contact other rads programs.

This is something I have been worried about too, especially with couples match complicating things. If I apply to field A everywhere besides New York, for example, and then apply to backup field B only in New York; and then my significant other applies to field C everywhere, New York and any other states desired, is there still a chance the PD will find out I applied to more than one program? In what way could he/she find out?

 

[Adam184]

I have heard the same thing. Nothing wrong with knowing who the competetion is.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Let's be clear -- the problem is not applying to more than one program. Of course you're going to apply to 20 programs in a field. The issue is applying to more than one field.

If you apply to two different fields, but separate them so that at any one institution you only apply to one of them, no one is going to "find out".

 

[cameraGEEK]

If you apply to two different fields, but separate them so that at any one institution you only apply to one of them, no one is going to "find out".

so people may call around, but only within their own institution? if you apply to one specialty in one school and another specialty in a nearby but different university, no way they would find out?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Nothing is 100%, but it's unlikely.

Unless you screw up, like the guy in the thread above.

Or if someone writes about it in one of your LOR's

 

[gutonc]

so people may call around, but only within their own institution? if you apply to one specialty in one school and another specialty in a nearby but different university, no way they would find out?

Unlikely. And unless your app screams "backup specialty," they're unlikely to even call anybody within their own institution. What is more likely to happen is that you are seen on your interview day at program X at hospital Y by a chief/attending/assoc PD from program Z, which you previously interviewed for. At that point, you can bet the PDs will be on the phone to each other and your chance of getting ranked by either of those programs starts to approach zero.

 

[cameraGEEK]

yikes, that's a terrifying scenario.

Thanks to both of you for this helpful advice.

If I do decide to go ahead with two programs at once, I think I may apply to the backup one in only New York, for example , and the other everywhere else in the US, to try to minimize the chances of a problem ... especially with the extra complications and PD talk about couples match ...

I really wish this process was simpler, or at least less stressful or mysterious.

 

[gutonc]

I really wish this process was simpler, or at least less stressful or mysterious.

You've made the process a lot more complicated than it is for nearly everybody else in the Match by participating in the Couples Match with two very competitive specialties that both need prelims and use two different match systems. You've chosen the most complicated scenario I can imagine but it's one that your Dean's office should have a good handle on which is why I'm curious what they told you when you had your meeting with them to discuss this.