Do Residency Directors care where you went to Med School?

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Do Residency Directors care where you went to Med School? For example, would it matter if you went to a top ten school like Yale or Michigan or if you went to a lower tier school like Drexel? :)
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Yes, they do. (Informal survey of two residency directors in Los Angeles)
 
I bet to differ. I think for the most part, no they don't. I go to an "unranked" (read: never in any rankings of top med schools) state school in the southeast. We had people match into all kinds of programs from Hopkins and Mass General all the way to staying here.

There may be some exceptions, perhaps some specific programs or institutions. I think a bigger isssue would likely be grade/board score/AOA cutoff. I know there are some programs that won't interview anyone who's not AOA.

If you get into and can afford a big name school, good for you. If not, don't sweat it. And affording is a big thing...I'm just totaling up my total debt and looking into buying a house in my residency city...there is NO WAY I can pay any of the debt on my resident's salary, so it will continue to rack up interest for another 5 years. I wish I had been able to keep it a lot lower. Cost is an issue.
 
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Based on my recently completed residency interview experience I feel that which medical school you attend does play some role. However, I found that things like board scores, AOA status, third year grades, and (particularly) letters of recommendation were more important.

That being said, there are programs out there which take medical school name into account more than others. However, there are plenty of high quality programs that count school name less.
 
Nope it doesnt matter for residency purposes but you have to work harder and prove yourself a little more than if you go to a top tier med school. I think the rough rule of thumb is that top 10-20% of any mid to low tier school is the equivalent to the top 30-40% of the top tier.

I think it can be somewhat of an advantage to go someplace less competitive and just kick ass. However there are some pockets of medicine where you pedigree is very important.
 
Here's what the told me, readers digest style. Basically, they have come to know that some schools are better at training their students than others. Because of that, if two students are close the school they go to will be taken into account (along with taken into account with class ranking. Harvard AOA is def different than Finch AOA) So really, it only applies to local schools where the residency directors get a decent amount of students over the years. So the other things matter a lot more, but it does help what school you came from. (And both said that they also favor their own school.)
 
Yes and No,

Yes in the sense that it might subconsciously affect how they look at you.

No, because board scores and other things are more important. They are better indicators of your abilities.
 
It somewhat depends on the credibility of the school. Some schools, unfortunately leave gaps in medical training and many PDs know this.

I think as long as your numbers look good, you have solid LORs, and went to a school with a descent reputation...you'll be in good shape. If a PD at a residency program has worked with graduates from the school you graduated from and has been satisfied with their performance...that's always a plus.
 
Come on you guys are kidding. How do you explain that "top" med schools tend to have better match rates and tend to match into more prestigious programs?

If med school name meant nothing to residency directors, then there would be equivalent match rates at all the med schools. In other words, the top 10% of students at Albany Med would have similar match rates as the top 10% at Harvard Med. But we all know thats not reality.

So the truth is that med school name does make SOME difference. We can all argue how much of a difference it makes, but for some of you to argue that it makes absolutely zero difference is totally wrong and you have no evidence to back it up.
 
of course they care. of course of you don't get into a top school, don't worry, just do your best to beat the odds and get into a solid residency.
 
And the fact that students from "top" schools tend to match at "top" programs doesn't prove that residency directors give preference to certain schools (though I will concede that there are a number of programs that give preference to their own students).

Other factors come into play...for example the student population and its attitude. I submit that students at "top" schools often tend to (note I'm not saying always) have the attitude that they need to be at the "top" school to get into a "top" program and tend to be more focused on pedigree. Students at "lower tier" schools are more likely to be put off by the idea of going to a "top" program, put off by their own perception (true or not) that they would be around a bunch of snobs. Also, I'd say that "lower tier" school students are more likely to be from areas closer to the school than those at "top" schools, and are more likely to want to stay closer to home than those who are willing to travel across the country for med school. So there is a certain amount of self-selection that goes on.

An example might help illustrate my point...Only 2 (of 20) of general surgery applicants in my class applied to MGH...most were put off by stories of the panel interview and simply didn't want to undergo that. I also didn't apply to Mayo Clinic, becuse I decided I didn't want to wear a suit every day, and I don't want to be at a program where you get yelled at for wearing scrubs out of the OR.

Also realize that some of the bigger name programs are really better places to do fellowships than residencies Again, using a surgery example, there are a number of the "top" programs which are heavy in fellows. THe fellows bump the chief residents out of cases, and so on down the line, so that sometimes (again, not always) you are better of not doing residency at some of these big name places (save them for fellowship)

I'm being rather adamant on this thread because I've seen threads on the premed fourm about ranking of med schools really degenerate. What makes a person a great physcian is how much effort they put into their own education, not what school they went to. THe school name may sometimes open doors. But generally, you will be able to find a number of quailty programs that will be happy to accept your application and rank you highly from almost any med school in the country. And since most students only get ONE acceptance to med school, they don't have the luxury of debating which school has the better name (and if you do, good for you). I'm trying to be a voice of reason here...combating the mentality we all tend to have to think in extremes (eg "oh, I got a B in X rotation....Now I'll never be able to match!!!) I'm already hearing this from some of the M3 and I had moments of this kind of thinking myself. But now that I'm through the match, and I see the results of my class, I can say that most people were very pleased. Not many people in the southeast want to venture north for Harvard affilliated programs...for a wide variety of reasons (but NOT because of our med school name)
 
Thanks a lot for your help...You guys Rock!!! :clap:
 
do PDs care of your "pedigree"? u decide for yourself.. some "our residents" data I got off 'net:

Johns Hopkins Neurosurg
DEAN CHOU, University of California, San Francisco
MACIEJ LESNIAK, Johns Hopkins University
PHILLIP B. STORM, Johns Hopkins University
IRA GARONZIK, Emory University
AMER SAMDANI, Johns Hopkins University
PAUL WANG, Harvard Medical School
ERIC AMUNDSON, Johns Hopkins University
SHERWIN HUA, Northwestern University MD/PhD
NIRIT WEISS, Yale University
MICHAEL SCHLOSSER, Yale University
JACOB SCHWARZ, Johns Hopkikns University
QUOC ANH THAI, Johns Hopkins University
CARLOS BAGLEY, Duke University
GARY GALLIA, Jefferson Medical College MD/PhD
HERMAN (Chris) LAWSON, Johns Hopkins University
STANLEY ANDERSON, Johns Hopkins University
JAMES CONWAY, Johns Hopkins University
KHAN LI, Johns Hopkins University
CLINTON BAIRD, St. Louis University
VIOLETTE RENARD, Johns Hopkins University
DANIEL SCIUBBA, Columbia University

Johns Hopkins Wilmer Ophtho Residency
UCSF
USC
JHU
UWash
JHU
HMS
Yale
Yale
UCSF
Wisc (MD/PhD)
Yale
UMich
JHU
Sinai
UChicago
JHU

USC Doheny Ophtho Residency
JHU
HMS
WashU
USC
JHU
JHU
Stanford
USC
USC
U Health KS (DO)
USC
UCLA
HMS
UCLA
HMS
JHU
UCLA
HMS
 
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It really depends on the PD and the department.
 
Of course the med school matters but nothing is 100% as a look at this years national match list for Derm will illustrate...Although 2/2 Hopkins applicants failed to match as did 4/5 Wash U undergrad applicants others from a wide range of med schools did match! So the school is not everything other factors such as grades,boards,personal contacts can carry the day http://mywebpages.comcast.net/longk/DermMatch2003.htm
 
This is an argument about subjectivity and objectivity as much as anything else. While there are clearly many objective measurements of medical students, clearly there are an equal number of subjective factors that go into evaluating students. It would be naive to assume that PD's don't fall prey to subjectivity as much as the rest of us do.

Here's one clear example that underscores this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11273382&dopt=Abstract

Here's another:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10782372&dopt=Abstract

Quoting from the latter...

"The results of the study indicate that the actions of many program directors and applicants may not be consistent with the written policies of the NRMP."
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It is, of course, nice to maintain the perception of "prestige" of a particular program by filling it with Ivy League med school graduates. This is going to necessarily improve and maintain the public's perception of what constitutes the best of the best. It is not unreasonable to assume that Program Director's factor this into their thinking. A lot of "side-dealing" and implicit "wink-wink-nudge-nudge" goes on in this game.

So, to answer the question: Yes, it clearly does matter, among many other equally relevant and highly weighted variables, what school you attended. As some have already pointed out, board scores, LORs, and med school attended are not mutually exclusive factors. It is specious to try to separate them.

But, the more important concept here is the individual's achievement no matter what med school they come from or what program they wind up in after med school. Studies have consistently shown that compassionate, caring physicians get sued FAR less than their not-so-caring counterparts - regardless of where they did their training. Medicare/Medicaid, likewise, doesn't care where you went to medical school. You don't get to bill more if you did your residency at Mass General. And, to suggest that treating a special population of patients who can afford access to someone with "higher" training credentials is elitist and classist, if not outright unethical.

So, don't worry about the brouhaha associated with this issue. There are PLENTY of ACGME certified programs out there that will get us all where we need to be. Unless you want to be working on fascinoma's in some ultra-elite mini-clinic in some ivory tower hospital (more power to you if you do), this should not even be an issue. If, however, you have your heart set on being a Neurosurgeon or Dermatologist, then you better pick the right school, get strong grades, have the right board score, etc., etc. It all matters, not any single variable.

-Skip
 
what if you attend an accelerated medical program right out of high school? I think our presenting GPA to residencies is based on our cumulative performance from our year 1 to our year 6 - year 1 and half of year 2 are mostly undergraduate courses mixed in with a few medical school classes. just in case you guys are wondering, i go to UMKC's six year medical program - the clinical reputation of our program is strong, but we have never made it to the top 50 medical schools in the country nor have we made to the top 15 accelerated programs in the country.
 
Ktat,

What are the top 15 accelerated medical programs in the US?
 
i do not remember exactly what all the 15 were, but do a search on yahoo for accelerated medical programs and I am sure you will find that link. I think Northwestern's PLME and the Rice/Baylor program were in that list though. For those who are looking into UMKC, my recommendation is that the school is improving in their basic science department and the clinical department at the school is really strong - if you are in high school and are the type that prefers clinical medicine versus academic medicine, i strongly recommend this school.
 
There is one ranking of the acc. med. programs online, but it is very obsolete. I got another ranking from a book. The top programs were (not in exact order):

Rice/Baylor, Northwestern HPME, Brown PLME, Case Western PPSP, Rochester REMS, NYU/NYU Med., Penn State Univ/Jefferson Medical College, Boston Univ./BU Med., Rensselaer Polytechnic Inst./Albany Medical College PSP, Miami HPME, UCLA/UCLA Med., Univ. of Wisconsin, Rutgers/UMDNJ, Lehigh/MCP Hahnemann, Univ. of Illinois at Chicago.

ALL US Med. programs (35) are great and can take you places!
btw, UMKC is a great program!
 
what about if you are a california resident and want to do your medical residency in california -

do residency directors on the west coast care where you went to school?

do they have preferences when it comes to out of state schools?

thanks
 
after a year and a half in med school i now do realize that the name of the school helps alot....if u have good grades good boards and an ok personality it really doesnt matter which school u attended....on the other hand, if u r just passing with ok/avg boards then ur school name can give u that extra push

peace
 
A twist in the path of conversation: I heard the word snob used to describe some not-top-tier students (top med schools/residencies) feelings towards those of top-tier students. True or false? Valid or not? Just wondering...

To me, it seems like there of course will be examples of such an occurance, but I thought that now we're at the level of professional education such a generalization wouldn't fly anymore. I just feel like those feelings are way to parallel to immature seniors in HS coming up with all sorts of damn-the-man reasons why they didn't get into their top choice, or even better why some people wouldn't "lower themselves" to even apply to such programs.

Maybe I'm a bit biased and offending more than a few people here, but since i went to a "dorky/snobby/rich" college prep HS and had people in grade school moan about it I've been hoping I'll hit a level where everyone chills out and finds some degree of satisfaction with where they are, while agreeing on valid higher goals to be persued. Whether we want to serve the most people or be the best trained specialist able to do things few or no one else can, either way our path will be helped by doing well along the way, making use of those advantages given to us, and eventually putting ourselves in the position to get exactly the work we want.

I realize some people are called to positions that are not hypercompetitive and called to them for great reasons, but I don't know why there is acceptance of simmering hostility to those who do aim for competitive goals and succeed... Oh, main caveat: admittedly, simply becoming a MD ain't so bad a goal... another reason why I thought this type of anti-nitzchean (2nd aside: im not a nitzchean nor do i worship ann rand :cool: ) whining would end.

Cheers
 
Originally posted by pxz
It really depends on the PD and the department.
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what is pd?
 
Originally posted by IrishOarsman
A twist in the path of conversation: I heard the word snob used to describe some not-top-tier students (top med schools/residencies) feelings towards those of top-tier students. True or false? Valid or not? Just wondering...
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Probably true. Not blanketly valid or justified. The basis of the perception comes down to this:

money = access
access = power
power = more money

-and-

money + access = power

A lot of people perceive this, whether it be true or not, and this is why the "snob" word comes out. Let's face it, a lot of kids who are put on the medicine track by doctor parents or rich parents or whatever from an early age, and can afford prep school and providing the proper educational lineage to their kids, will have greater access to the upper eschelon's of the U.S. education system. There's nothing wrong with this, per se, if the kids have worked hard, are competent, and deserve to be there on their own merits.

However, I think that with certain grade-inflation controversies (at such schools as Harvard undergrad, link can be provided if necessary), public perception is that some of the students are spoiled brats who have been afforded access by mummy and daddy.

Originally posted by IrishOarsman
To me, it seems like there of course will be examples of such an occurance, but I thought that now we're at the level of professional education such a generalization wouldn't fly anymore. I just feel like those feelings are way to parallel to immature seniors in HS coming up with all sorts of damn-the-man reasons why they didn't get into their top choice, or even better why some people wouldn't "lower themselves" to even apply to such programs.
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Yes, true. But, it is the same ego-salvaging, human nature that also makes people look down on non-trads, such as myself. We are clique-ish by nature.

Originally posted by IrishOarsman
Maybe I'm a bit biased and offending more than a few people here, but since i went to a "dorky/snobby/rich" college prep HS and had people in grade school moan about it I've been hoping I'll hit a level where everyone chills out and finds some degree of satisfaction with where they are, while agreeing on valid higher goals to be persued. Whether we want to serve the most people or be the best trained specialist able to do things few or no one else can, either way our path will be helped by doing well along the way, making use of those advantages given to us, and eventually putting ourselves in the position to get exactly the work we want.
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We're all biased, my friend. People will chill out about it when you prove yourself to be a compassionate, responsible, dedicated physician. You may at first have to go the extra mile, just as I undoubtedly will, to squelch the doubters though. Is this fair? No. But, neither is life. However, if you act like a snob (just as if I act like an incompetent boob), you will be treated accordingly.

Originally posted by IrishOarsman
I realize some people are called to positions that are not hypercompetitive and called to them for great reasons, but I don't know why there is acceptance of simmering hostility to those who do aim for competitive goals and succeed... Oh, main caveat: admittedly, simply becoming a MD ain't so bad a goal... another reason why I thought this type of anti-nitzchean (2nd aside: im not a nitzchean nor do i worship ann rand :cool: ) whining would end.
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Me too, but for equally different reasons.

-Skip
MS2 Ross U.
 
Thank you for your input/insight.

So you're basically saying, for rad, optha, derm, it matters where you went to med school. Otherwise, it's not?

I do think it's unfair that going to a certain med school matters. Older med school applicants have better chances of med school admission because they took years off to save a whale. More young ones (traditional) tend to gain acceptances at "lower tier" schools. Therefore, the particular med school does not indicate the ability or potential of a med student, especially the younger ones. How fair or smart to base a med student on the medical school attended? Besides, med school admissions is random. I dont see how med school attended should play a large role on residency placement for any program.

Originally posted by IOE
This thread has exactly what i's looking for. Let me fill u in with my story...I got accepted into 5 schools....two of which I have already withdrawn from for family/location issues....the remaining three are Howard, GW, and Georgetown....not exactly ur top 10 schools but u can see a clear "ranking gradient". What makes it a little harder is that I also received a full scholarship to attend Howard....a 4yrs free ride, I felt that it is kindda stupid to let go of an offer THAT good. But at the same time I believed I need a name to be able to get a good surgery residency. So to get some advise i met with Johns Hopkins dean of admission (I'm a RA in the med school) with my problem and what he told me helped me decide. I mean it actually made sense. He encouaged me to pick the money over the name and most of his reasons were already mentioned by previous posters in this thread, i.e. if u r a top 10% of ur class, good boards, LOR, etc etc..then getting a good surgery residency should not be a problem in the least bit as opposed to derm, rad, or opth residencies.

The general rule is that a big name is totally essential if u want to get into academic medicine, research, or a tough residency. If ur long term goals are non of these, then go to the school u feel most comfortable in and rack those As.

my 0.002 cents

peace
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Originally posted by Skip Intro
Me too, but for equally different reasons.

-Skip
MS2 Ross U.
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I don't really understand your entire response. You think that sometimes snob is appropriate, therefore its usage is okay?

And... I didn't intend to take a side. I'm not putting myself as someone who's been called a snob and is pissed. I don't overmuch care what someone thinks about my motivations, insomuch as if they're calling me a snob they don't understand them very well. Nor did I intend to put off non-trads or anyone who doesn't fall into the 'likely-snob' category.

I'm just wondering why the process of finding something to criticize in those who might be luckier is so accepted even among very highly successful people.
 
Older med school applicants have better chances of med school admission because they took years off to save a whale. More young ones (traditional) tend to gain acceptances at "lower tier" schools. Therefore, the particular med school does not indicate the ability or potential of a med student, especially the younger ones.
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Personally, I'd like to be treated by a doctor who had saved a whale.
And I'm thinking that somebody's stating the obvious while missing a couple nuances and a whole lot of statistical support.
 
Originally posted by IrishOarsman
I don't really understand your entire response. You think that sometimes snob is appropriate, therefore its usage is okay?
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Then, I apparently must have not understood your original post. But, you were the one who said...

i went to a "dorky/snobby/rich" college prep HS and had people in grade school moan about
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... which lead me to believe you were speaking mostly from personal experience.

Nonetheless, I'm not saying it's justified at all. Quite the contrary. The gist of what I'm saying is that certain people enjoy great pleasure and delight in knocking others, either ones they perceive to be better than them or worse. For the one's doing the knocking, it's ego preservation pure and simple.

Originally posted by IrishOarsman
I'm just wondering why the process of finding something to criticize in those who might be luckier is so accepted even among very highly successful people.
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I don't think it is. I think what human nature often dictates, though, is the attempt to knock people down when they get a little too uppity. Just take what's happening to Martha Stewart right now, for example. She stepped on a lot of people to get where she is, and now she's learning a lesson in "what comes around goes around." (But, that's a subject for an entirely different thread...)

Is it right? Probably not. Personally, I couldn't give a rat's behind about the Martha Stewarts of the world, their millions, or how they got them... with certain stipulations, of course. But, a lot of people feel snubbed. And, this is this the reason why people lash out. It's seen as getting an unfair advantage and/or not deserving what you have. Again, so long as one (sorry to previously use the colloquialism "you" if the context was misinterpreted) at the very least appears gracious.

I have a different battle to fight. That's the only point I was making. Again, some people will automatically assume that I am incompetent, lazy, etc. because of where I went to school. They will quickly learn that quite the contrary is true. Is it fair that I have to go out of my way to prove that I'm a "good person" just because of my life experience and what they have or have not afforded me? No. But, again, life isn't fair.

The older you get, the more you will see that many people never really do fully graduate from high school, at least in an emotional sense.

-Skip
 
well said skip, well said.

Peace~Doc
 
i know... i just try to keep the hope alive that i'll run into a group that just *knows* it is good at what it does, so it(whatever that happens to be) doesn't matter
 
The same battle is probably fought by people who did well in school but didn't do too hot on Boards, people who did well on the wards but not on the shelf exams, people who did well in clinic overall but just didn't have the right "fit", and people who did well in med school but didn't have the research experience to make them shine in highly competitive academic programs. I think when it comes down to it, very few people have it ALL GOOD.
 
Originally posted by tofurious
The same battle is probably fought by people who did well in school but didn't do too hot on Boards, people who did well on the wards but not on the shelf exams, people who did well in clinic overall but just didn't have the right "fit", and people who did well in med school but didn't have the research experience to make them shine in highly competitive academic programs. I think when it comes down to it, very few people have it ALL GOOD.
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You are absolutely correct. None of us is perfect. And, none of us should hold any other to that standard.

-Skip
 
From what I have the worst students who barely based USMLE Step 1 from a school like Stanford, match better than AOA and a 265 from FInch
 
I had seen them both prior to writing this and what I said is true. Stanford matched tons of Ivy, UCSF, Stanford, UCLA and other U of C. Notice that there is not one Columbia or MGH match on the Finch list.

What I am saying is that the worst student from Stanford gets "more play" from residency programs than the best students from Finch simply based on the Stanford Rep.
 

I had seen them both prior to writing this and what I said is true. Stanford matched tons of Ivy, UCSF, Stanford, UCLA and other U of C. Notice that there is not one Columbia or MGH match on the Finch list.
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To those of us in the Midwest the U of Cal. system is NOT the end-all-be-all. I know that very few of my classmates even consider applying to California residencies. These two (Finch and Stanford) rank lists look VERY equal to me when adjusted for regional differences. And no, I am not a Finch student.

- H
 
Originally posted by pathstudent
I had seen them both prior to writing this and what I said is true. Stanford matched tons of Ivy, UCSF, Stanford, UCLA and other U of C. Notice that there is not one Columbia or MGH match on the Finch list.
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No, don't redirect and attempt to spin. What you said (and not very coherently, I might add) is this...
I corrected some grammer
From what I have seen/heard the worst students who barely (sic) passed USMLE Step 1 from a school like Stanford, match better than AOA and a 265 from FInch
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http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=746541#post746541

This is nothing more than hyperbole!

Let's take a few examples (subjectively)...

TOP 5 OF FINCH'S LIST:

Mayo Graduate SOM-MN - Anesthesiology
Stanford Univ Hosp-CA - Neurology
Univ Texas-Southwestern-TX - Opthamology
Mayo Graduate SOM-MN - ENT
Johns Hopkins Hosp-MD - Psychiatry

BOTTOM 5 OF STANFORD'S LIST:

Kaiser Perm-Santa Clara-CA - Medicine-Preliminary
Sutter Med Ctr-Santa Rosa-CA - Family Practice
Kaiser Permanente-LA-CA - Obstetrics-Gynecology
U TX Med Branch-Galveston - Anesthesiology
San Jose Med Ctr-CA - Family Practice

Of course, the Stanford list is, on the whole, more impressive. But, I seriously doubt, as you suggested, that a student with a 265 Step I and who was AOA from Finch is going to get "snubbed". Your post makes it appear futile for Finch students, which is not at all the case. No one is arguing that the Stanford name has more cachet. But, did you need to slam Finch in the process?

Originally posted by pathstudent
What I am saying is that the worst student from Stanford gets "more play" from residency programs than the best students from Finch simply based on the Stanford Rep.
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While accessibility to interviews at certain programs may be true, your use of gross exagerration, as in your OP, comes across more as a swipe at Finch than a meaningful contribution to this thread. If you look at the list, there is a fair amount of school, if not program, overlap at the mid-tier programs, while clearly (not arguing that) Stanford grads got far more spots in more competitive programs. I just want to know why you need to exagerrate to prove a point, and in doing so take a swipe at Finch. Do you think people graduating from Finch are really that inferior, especially in the eyes of a PD?

If you care to share with us, future doctor, let's hear some additional thoughts from you why you felt the need to make that post.

-Skip
 
Well Skip,

You do provide strong and irrefutable evidence. The five best Finch spots Rock those five Stanford ones. (although having heard that 60% of Finchers are from Cali, I bet many would love those "no-name" California matches)

So, perhaps my original statement was an over statement. Never the less, having attended Stanford has to be such a big boost compared to a Finch diploma. I bet it is a huge advantage, more so than any performance measure.
 
Originally posted by pathstudent
So, perhaps my original statement was an over statement.
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Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

Originally posted by pathstudent
Never the less, having attended Stanford has to be such a big boost compared to a Finch diploma. I bet it is a huge advantage, more so than any performance measure.
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Never in contention.

;)

-Skip
 
Just because you are from California does not mean you want to return/do residency in California. I'm sorry but...like I said in some previous thread, pathstudent is an idiot.

All I know is, my friend from UCDavis has a better job than my friend from Columbia, undergrad. Which school you went to means squat as long as you do well yourself.


Originally posted by pathstudent
Well Skip,

You do provide strong and irrefutable evidence. The five best Finch spots Rock those five Stanford ones. (although having heard that 60% of Finchers are from Cali, I bet many would love those "no-name" California matches)

So, perhaps my original statement was an over statement. Never the less, having attended Stanford has to be such a big boost compared to a Finch diploma. I bet it is a huge advantage, more so than any performance measure.
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I just wanted to add that Neil Parker went to medical school in SUNY, no ivy league. He's the Dean of UCLA med.
 
What is your problem profunda? For some reasone you are threatened by me and regularly attempt to insult me.

Notice that I have never derided you.

Bug off.
 
Because you say things that make other med students like those from Finch feel bad. Any med school is good and hard to get in, pass exams, fulfill requirements. Some people want to do peds and they dont care to go to Mass Gen ENT. Why are you making them feel bad that they're not at Stanford med or going to end up at MGH ENT? Who gives a dam, one can be a better caring doctor and treat patients better at community hospital than someone who did residency at harvard.

it's great that you have your junior AOA and you go to stanford and you will go to hopkins orthopeds, but there are Finch students that will be better doctors than you ("even" if they lack a bit more knowledge than you, because they talk at the level of their patients). more patients will be satisfied by their care. my mom sees a primary doctor from oklahoma because he is caring, rejecting another primary doctor from ucsf because he's arrogant and lazy (now). [real story]



Originally posted by pathstudent
What is your problem profunda? For some reasone you are threatened by me and regularly attempt to insult me.

Notice that I have never derided you.

Bug off.
Click to expand...
 
Did you guys actually look at the Finch list. That is a He!! of a lot better than many state schools. Yeah those guys from Finch are big time loosers. Yeah right. Four people in Ortho, 6 in Opthalmology. Surgery at Yale. Diagonostic rads at USC (along with 5 other Rads). Ent at mayo. By the way whoever called them out for not having harvard affiliate matches was wrong. One guy matched in Internal Med at Lahey clinic. Which means that he gets much of the harvard resources, rotations, and rep without having to deal with the BS that probably goes on at Mass Gen. Finch is without a doubt not a bad school. In fact I think it is better, in terms of match list than the school I am attending that is ranked higher. The other thing is do you think it really matters that much where you train. I mean Hopkins is probably the premier med center in the US overall. But do you think that some guy that trains in surgery there is automatically better than some one who trains at the lowly Baylor or Case western or Vandy. I mean things aren't that simple. Yes the Duke, Penn, Harvard Hopkins, and UCSF programs produce excellent docs but they don't have an absolute monopoly on talent if you read the facult profiles at the Harvard affiliates you will find out that they don't claim too. They hire people from wretched institutions like UMaryland and UMinnesota. Additionally look at some of the Medical powerhouse researchers of our time. Michael Debakey the most preeminent heart surgeon ever graduated from Tulane. Jonas Salk went to the lowly NYU (sarcasm) did residency and research at Pitt and along with Albert Sabin (who was performing research at Cincinatti) wiped out polio. Lots of talented people come from lots of different schools and residencies. Do people at top schools have an advantage, yes, they probably had it when they were born the school didn't give it all to them.
 
Want me to really blow your mind?

I know, personally, of a doctor who trained at Spartan - yes, the Spartan in the Caribbean - who did his residency in Diagnostic-Radiology at Harvard.

Here's the good part...

He's leaving private practice to return to Boston... to take a position as FACULTY at Harvard! That's right, a Caribbean grad will be teaching Ivy leaguers.

Moral of the story: In the long run, it's more about personal and professional accomplishment than it is breeding, although breeding goes a long way in removing doubt in a lot of people's minds.

And, that's what this is really about. Most PD's figure that if you come from 'so-and-so' program, you must have your **** together. Conversely, they figure if you went to some other 'less reputable' program, you've got a lot more to prove. This is - by definition - prejudice. And, frankly many feel that they just don't have the time to take the risk on somebody from one of those less-reputable programs, especially when they've had a good track record with the Stanfords, Harvards, etc. So, this system becomes the only coping mechanism that PD's have to weed through the otherwise voluminous amount of apps without wasting time.

Is it fair? Who knows. But, certainly a lot of excellent people are likely to be passed over simply because of where they did undergrad med. Does it ultimately matter in the long run? Well, if you have your heart set on a particular speciality doing research at a particular teaching hospital, maybe. If not, you're okay. But, I can tell you that I've been around the block a few times and often the people are considered 'intelligent', who have great breeding, and look great on paper can sometimes be the most clueless with the least amount of common sense folks you'll ever meet.

Still, if you are 265 Step I and AOA at Finch (or EVMS, Meharry, Marshall, Downstate, or any other supposedly "inferior" school - including the Caribbean [although Carib schools don't participate in AOA, for obvious reasons]), you can do very well if you play your cards right. Don't let the elitist naysayers try to convince you otherwise.

-Skip
 
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