Do safety schools ever auto-reject you for being a strong applicant?

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pyrrion89

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Some people on the forums have speculated off-handedly that if you apply to a school too below your stats, that school will just reject you because they assume you will be accepted at a more prestigious school. Is there any truth behind that? For example, if my LizzyM is a 76, will a 68 school reject me before the interview stage?

I want to apply to a good number of safety schools because, although I am competitive for the highest tier schools, I know it's a crapshoot and plenty of applicants with a 76 get rejected everywhere when they apply top-heavy (even if top-heavy is within or below their LizzyM). I want to ensure I get in at least somewhere without having to re-apply. But will I just get auto-rejected from my safeties? Am I wasting my time applying there? Is there a cut-off at which a safety becomes "don't bother applying"?

I am not trying to brag or anything. I'm genuinely concerned. If you look on MDapplicants.com you can see plenty of profiles where top applicants get 0 acceptances.

I have a 37 MCAT, 3.91 cGPA, 4.0 sGPA (76 LizzyM, see MDapp link) and these are my "safeties" of my 33 total med school list. LizzyM included.

Albany 69
Creighton 69
Jefferson 69
New York Medical 69
Drexel 68
Oakland 68
Saint Louis 71
Vermont 70
Einstein 71

Thank you for your time.
 
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Given a choice between Drexel and Penn would you ever consider Drexel? What about a choice between Cornell and Albany? and so forth down the list. Many of the "lower tier" schools will see that there chances of snagging you as a matriculant are very slim. They will concentrate their interview invites on people they think are more likely to choose them because of a strong geographic preference or because their other choices are likely to be "peer institutions".

With your stats, the only way this is a crapshoot is if you are terrible at interviewing, you submit a really sloppy or clueless application or have had little to no experience being sought by these schools, or you have a huge red flag on your application or in your letters (felony, academic dishonesty). People with those problems can apply to 100 schools and not get an offer.

I strongly believe that you don't need more than 15 applications divided among reach, middle and safety schools. Throw in 5 more and call it a day. Seriously, the supplementals will overwhelm you and you'll feel obligated to attend every interview until you get an offer (which won't happen until after October 14).

Keep 5 of those low tier schools depending on whether you want to live in a rural state or a more urban one, coast or not, etc, and call it a day.
 
I respectfully disagree with my learned colleague Lizzy. In my experience, every now and then one of my colleagues on the AdCom will say "oh, this guy/gal will never come here", and he gets promptly ignored and then we accept the applicant.

I don't believe that Drexel and their ilk will turn down qualified applicants just because they're highly qualified. There are only so many seats at the top tier schools.


Some people on the forums have speculated off-handedly that if you apply to a school too below your stats, that school will just reject you because they assume you will be accepted at a more prestigious school. Is there any truth behind that? For example, if my LizzyM is a 76, will a 68 school reject me before the interview stage?

I want to apply to a good number of safety schools because, although I am competitive for the highest tier schools, I know it's a crapshoot and plenty of applicants with a 76 get rejected everywhere when they apply top-heavy (even if top-heavy is within or below their LizzyM). I want to ensure I get in at least somewhere without having to re-apply. But will I just get auto-rejected from my safeties? Am I wasting my time applying there? Is there a cut-off at which a safety becomes "don't bother applying"?

I am not trying to brag or anything. I'm genuinely concerned. If you look on MDapplicants.com you can see plenty of profiles where top applicants get 0 acceptances.

I have a 37 MCAT, 3.91 cGPA, 4.0 sGPA (76 LizzyM, see MDapp link) and these are my "safeties" of my 33 total med school list. LizzyM included.

Albany 69
Creighton 69
Jefferson 69
New York Medical 69
Drexel 68
Oakland 68
Saint Louis 71
Vermont 70
Einstein 71

Thank you for your time.
 
There has to be a plausible reason you will accept a 'lower tier' school -- As LizzyM pointed out, Why Drexel when you've got Penn? I'm not seeing it... Why Creighton? (Unless you're from the midwest or have family there.) Why UT Houston or UTMB? (Low tuition!) And a chance for them to buff up their stats. They might actually be interested and your stats are high enough that you might make their 10% OOS lists...

For your safeties, go for 'fit'. And don't aim too low; go solid mid-tier. Have a good reason why you'd want to go there: Location, family, birthplace, research specialty -- something specific about the program. Something you can articulate in your secondaries that will lead them to believe that a LizzyM 76 might attend their 70 school.
 
There has to be a plausible reason you will accept a 'lower tier' school -- As LizzyM pointed out, Why Drexel when you've got Penn? I'm not seeing it... Why Creighton? (Unless you're from the midwest or have family there.) Why UT Houston or UTMB? (Low tuition!) And a chance for them to buff up their stats. They might actually be interested and your stats are high enough that you might make their 10% OOS lists...

For your safeties, go for 'fit'. And don't aim too low; go solid mid-tier. Have a good reason why you'd want to go there: Location, family, birthplace, research specialty -- something specific about the program. Something you can articulate in your secondaries that will lead them to believe that a LizzyM 76 might attend their 70 school.
Exactly. There are only so many applicants that you can interview. No school is going to spend their resources to interview a lot of low yield applicants.
 
I respectfully disagree with my learned colleague Lizzy. In my experience, every now and then one of my colleagues on the AdCom will say "oh, this guy/gal will never come here", and he gets promptly ignored and then we accept the applicant.

I don't believe that Drexel and their ilk will turn down qualified applicants just because they're highly qualified. There are only so many seats at the top tier schools.

Goro, I noticed this observation is based off students you've seen at interviews. But couldn't it be the case that many top-stats applicants get screened out before they even make it to interviews?

Thank you for your response to my thread (and that goes for everyone else, too!) 🙂
 
In my experience I got interviews at some of the schools with LizzyM scores quite a bit below mine and never heard from so i ended up withdrawing from others.
 
Not in my experience. We get people whose stats clearly are good enough for top-tier schools. They may indeed be using us as a safety, but other are from our region and want to saty close to home, or like the DO philosophy. So, we can't afford NOT to interview them.

Goro, I noticed this observation is based off students you've seen at interviews. But couldn't it be the case that many top-stats applicants get screened out before they even make it to interviews?

Thank you for your response to my thread (and that goes for everyone else, too!) 🙂
 
I know that the University of Utah School of Medicine after it ranks all of the applicants it rejects the top 10% figuring that they will go elsewhere.
 
To reply to Pyrrion89, I would say that his hypothesis is very true... That is exactly what happens to very top students in this country, and not only for med school. One of my colleague at work, told me that it is what happened to him when he applied to engineering grad school in the US from Singapore. He was a very top student who got a mention at the international Physics Olympiads. He told me that he was admitted to several top US universities ( He went to Stanford for grad school) and got rejected by all his "safeties" schools, something that puzzled him at the time. More recently I have an obvious example for pre-med students. My son is a very top pre-med student ( MCAT and GPA above, the average scores of any admitted classes at universities like Harvard, Hopkins etc ) . So he basically took the US rankings of Med schools and populated his own list of applications with all the top 10. He applied to 26 med schools, with let's say the last 13 on his list being his safeties, some of them not exactly being top tier med schools ( UC Davis, UC Riverside) to make sure that at least he would get something ( he is from California)... We are close to the end of february, and he got one admission so far, and 6 decisions pending after the interviews. All of the 7 interviews he got where in the top 13 universities of his list ( including Harvard where he got an interview, and is now waiting for the decision first week of march). What about his 13 "safeties" ? The record here is dismal: 10 straight rejections so far, and still not a word from 3 universities, which undoubtedly that late in the game, will send a negative response. saying that they had too many applicants, without explaining why they don't give interviews to students whose application file is far superior to the ones of the students who will at the end be admitted to their school. No doubt that if they feel that a student is highly likely to be admitted by a very top school of medecine, they won't bother with that particular student. My son even told me that if he had known he wouldn't have bothered with safety schools, saving on the cost of applying to all these schools, and more important saving on time he took, spending 2 to 3 days on each application he sent ! Fortunately , he says " I got an admission that came quite early in the process, so that I would be very scared at this time !" Looking after the fact , I almost think that the good strategy for a very top student would be "underplay" the applications to his "safeties" , by omitting a few details that make the applicant look very strong besides just the grades and MCAT scores that cannot be "understated". I am thinking that a very top student can understate things like the number of foreign languages spoken fluently, or the research done as an undergrad, or some of the other relevant activities a top student always has... That could increase the student's chances to get a couple interviews among his safeties, just for the case where the student wouldn't pass the interviews he got with the very top schools. That strategy could counter the game the universities are playing, because the system is unfair to the student, when every year it looks like some top students fall through the cracks, when much lesser students get admitted to "minor" med schools. And I am not even talking about the legacy admissions who are affecting the game for those students who don't have connections... I would let the mathematically inclined people to draw the conclusion , from one simple example: Last year Harvard average MCAT score for the new class was 36.5 I believe, I also know that a 39/45 MCAT score put you in the top percentile... Roughly 100 000 pre med applicants each year, so you should have roughly 1000 students with a 39 MCAT score and above, from which Harvard could easily draw its class of 165 students minus the 25 or so admitted on "diversity " grounds ( Harvard says that it represents 16% of the class) . So if Harvard was considering 140 students among the 1000 students with MCAT at least at 39, Harvard could get a MCAT average close to 40, If the 16% of "diversity" students were admitted with MCAT scores as low as 30, it would still only bring down the average score to 38.5 , but it is only 36.5. A large disconnect, that I can only explain with a large number of "legacy" admissions, with less than superb MCAT score to bring the average MCAT score an other 2 points. All this is unfortunate, and I know coming from an other country, that there are admissions systems abroad which are purely based on academics, and where legacy doesn't exist. In England the son of the prime minister Tony Blair was rejected for admissions at Oxford and Cambridge, but was admitted at Yale. The current king of Belgium, was well known to not be a super star academically and still was admitted at Stanford when he was the prince of Belgium in 1983. In France the admission to the most 2 prestigious universities ( Ecole Polytechnique, ENS Paris) are purely based on a grueling national competitive exam that students take at the end of their 2nd year of university. That exam is so hard , with so many tests over several weeks that it doesn't leave any room to chances. You could be the son of the french president, and if you don't rank ( in sciences) in the top 500 in France, you won't be admitted to the 2 top schools, fame, wealth or your parents' power won't help. In France , the medical school system is different, but at the end of the 5th year of university, the med students take a national ranking exam that will determine where they will go. You are ranked number one in France, you get to chose where you want to study, etc. You are the last one being admitted , you get to go to the last opening, in the last med school that still has a place... Basically the higher rank , the more choice you have. No "diversity" and even better no "legacy" that I find completely unfair. If I can understand the rationale for "diversity" to take into account the disadvantages one might have encountered in life, why giving an extra advantage to the already privileged, through the secret legacy admission ( note that US universities don't publish the number of students admitted on legacy, like Mr Bush who was admitted at Yale with SAT scores well below the normal minimum threshold that most students need to satisfy to be admitted at Yale at the time)
 
The reason that Harvard and other top schools have an average MCAT of ~36 rather than ~39 has nothing to do with legacy. As you pointed out, there are plenty of high stat applicants -- these top schools are selecting for something else. They look for passion, diversity of experience, commitment to a cause, etc. in their students. Very few schools have a strong desire to fill their class with identical 45/4.0 candidates. Merit can simply not be measured with these metrics alone. Diversity and passion are what make the students at Harvard (and many other schools) great. To eliminate those things from the admissions process would be a tragedy.

To reply to Pyrrion89, I would say that his hypothesis is very true... That is exactly what happens to very top students in this country, and not only for med school. One of my colleague at work, told me that it is what happened to him when he applied to engineering grad school in the US from Singapore. He was a very top student who got a mention at the international Physics Olympiads. He told me that he was admitted to several top US universities ( He went to Stanford for grad school) and got rejected by all his "safeties" schools, something that puzzled him at the time. More recently I have an obvious example for pre-med students. My son is a very top pre-med student ( MCAT and GPA above, the average scores of any admitted classes at universities like Harvard, Hopkins etc ) . So he basically took the US rankings of Med schools and populated his own list of applications with all the top 10. He applied to 26 med schools, with let's say the last 13 on his list being his safeties, some of them not exactly being top tier med schools ( UC Davis, UC Riverside) to make sure that at least he would get something ( he is from California)... We are close to the end of february, and he got one admission so far, and 6 decisions pending after the interviews. All of the 7 interviews he got where in the top 13 universities of his list ( including Harvard where he got an interview, and is now waiting for the decision first week of march). What about his 13 "safeties" ? The record here is dismal: 10 straight rejections so far, and still not a word from 3 universities, which undoubtedly that late in the game, will send a negative response. saying that they had too many applicants, without explaining why they don't give interviews to students whose application file is far superior to the ones of the students who will at the end be admitted to their school. No doubt that if they feel that a student is highly likely to be admitted by a very top school of medecine, they won't bother with that particular student. My son even told me that if he had known he wouldn't have bothered with safety schools, saving on the cost of applying to all these schools, and more important saving on time he took, spending 2 to 3 days on each application he sent ! Fortunately , he says " I got an admission that came quite early in the process, so that I would be very scared at this time !" Looking after the fact , I almost think that the good strategy for a very top student would be "underplay" the applications to his "safeties" , by omitting a few details that make the applicant look very strong besides just the grades and MCAT scores that cannot be "understated". I am thinking that a very top student can understate things like the number of foreign languages spoken fluently, or the research done as an undergrad, or some of the other relevant activities a top student always has... That could increase the student's chances to get a couple interviews among his safeties, just for the case where the student wouldn't pass the interviews he got with the very top schools. That strategy could counter the game the universities are playing, because the system is unfair to the student, when every year it looks like some top students fall through the cracks, when much lesser students get admitted to "minor" med schools. And I am not even talking about the legacy admissions who are affecting the game for those students who don't have connections... I would let the mathematically inclined people to draw the conclusion , from one simple example: Last year Harvard average MCAT score for the new class was 36.5 I believe, I also know that a 39/45 MCAT score put you in the top percentile... Roughly 100 000 pre med applicants each year, so you should have roughly 1000 students with a 39 MCAT score and above, from which Harvard could easily draw its class of 165 students minus the 25 or so admitted on "diversity " grounds ( Harvard says that it represents 16% of the class) . So if Harvard was considering 140 students among the 1000 students with MCAT at least at 39, Harvard could get a MCAT average close to 40, If the 16% of "diversity" students were admitted with MCAT scores as low as 30, it would still only bring down the average score to 38.5 , but it is only 36.5. A large disconnect, that I can only explain with a large number of "legacy" admissions, with less than superb MCAT score to bring the average MCAT score an other 2 points. All this is unfortunate, and I know coming from an other country, that there are admissions systems abroad which are purely based on academics, and where legacy doesn't exist. In England the son of the prime minister Tony Blair was rejected for admissions at Oxford and Cambridge, but was admitted at Yale. The current king of Belgium, was well known to not be a super star academically and still was admitted at Stanford when he was the prince of Belgium in 1983. In France the admission to the most 2 prestigious universities ( Ecole Polytechnique, ENS Paris) are purely based on a grueling national competitive exam that students take at the end of their 2nd year of university. That exam is so hard , with so many tests over several weeks that it doesn't leave any room to chances. You could be the son of the french president, and if you don't rank ( in sciences) in the top 500 in France, you won't be admitted to the 2 top schools, fame, wealth or your parents' power won't help. In France , the medical school system is different, but at the end of the 5th year of university, the med students take a national ranking exam that will determine where they will go. You are ranked number one in France, you get to chose where you want to study, etc. You are the last one being admitted , you get to go to the last opening, in the last med school that still has a place... Basically the higher rank , the more choice you have. No "diversity" and even better no "legacy" that I find completely unfair. If I can understand the rationale for "diversity" to take into account the disadvantages one might have encountered in life, why giving an extra advantage to the already privileged, through the secret legacy admission ( note that US universities don't publish the number of students admitted on legacy, like Mr Bush who was admitted at Yale with SAT scores well below the normal minimum threshold that most students need to satisfy to be admitted at Yale at the time)
 
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