DO satellite schools?

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AwesomeO-DO

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There have been 3 new satellite schools created in the last 2 years: TUCOM has a new Las Vegas campus, LECOM has one in FL, and PCOM has one in Geogia. Has anyone heard any negative rumors about the acceptance standards for these new schools? Like not having to do an interview to get in?
 
One of my colleagues mentioned that some of their friends got into the Las Vegas school without even an interview... scary.
 
babyruth said:
One of my colleagues mentioned that some of their friends got into the Las Vegas school without even an interview... scary.

hmm.. a friend of a friend... can anyone be more material than this?? isnt this also against regulations to give an acceptance without interview?
 
this does not really answer your question - but i have heard some concern that the new florida school does not have a very sizable faculty - and i have talked to a LECOM student who believes that the school's motivations are very propriatary. i will admit that all this is just what i have *heard* from others - so please correct me if i have the wrong impression here.

i think we should be concerned that the AOA is giving accreditation to so many schools, while not sizably increasing GME. does anyone have information about an overall plan/strategy from the AOA regarding expansion of osteopathic schools? what about accreditation standards? i just want to make sure we are headed in the direction of increased quality - not just increased quantity. i'll try to education myself on this issue a little more and then pass along any information i find.
 
cooldreams said:
hmm.. a friend of a friend... can anyone be more material than this?? isnt this also against regulations to give an acceptance without interview?

Are these satellite schools admissions even regulated?
Some of the websites say that they don't have AOA accreditation YET, but they do have approval to start taking applications for these new satellite locations.

http://www.tucom.edu/nv/tunv.html

http://www.lecom.edu/bradenton/about.htm

http://www.pcom.edu/General_Information/georgia/georgia.html
 
🙂 The LECOM FLA campus has enough people to teach the general category of Anatomy (Gross, Embryo, Histo) and plenty of faculty to cover its OMM and entirely PBL medical curriculum. I can answer any other questions about the PBL learning process and how the curriculum was set up in Erie which is close to, if not exactly how it is set up in FLA.
 
just a thought, but, if there are more DO applicants, and there are in fact still md residencies that go unfilled each year, then there will be more DO docs out and about even without the DO residencies. along this line, if the number of DOs increases, will this not lend itself to providing more DO res opportunities? im not saying i like to see how things are going now with more campuses and less hospitials, but im just speculating.

when osteopathy broke away from mergeing with allopathy again 40-50 yrs ago, how did hospitals and residencies start up back then??? that may lend itself to our situation now. does anyone know?
 
AwesomeO-DO said:
Are these satellite schools admissions even regulated?
Some of the websites say that they don't have AOA accreditation YET, but they do have approval to start taking applications for these new satellite locations.

http://www.tucom.edu/nv/tunv.html

http://www.lecom.edu/bradenton/about.htm

http://www.pcom.edu/General_Information/georgia/georgia.html

they are all either accredited or soon to be. everything looks to be legit to me.... just more new schools starting up is all.
 
Non-Trad DO said:
🙂 The LECOM FLA campus has enough people to teach the general category of Anatomy (Gross, Embryo, Histo) and plenty of faculty to cover its OMM and entirely PBL medical curriculum. I can answer any other questions about the PBL learning process and how the curriculum was set up in Erie which is close to, if not exactly how it is set up in FLA.


great - i would really like to learn more FL statistics (facutly #, teaching hospital, etc) and about the PBL setup. obviously i have a lot to learn here - so any websites or information you can post here i would appreciate.
 
Straight from the director of admissions at TUCOM:
AwesomeO-DO ? Yes. You must submit an AACOMAS application and then you must qualify for a supplemental application and then you may be considered for an interview.



Roger Corbman

Director of Admissions




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: *******
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject:



Is an interview required for admission to TU-NV?



AwesomeO-DO

DO 07

DMU-COM
 
There have been scattered reports on this board about students getting into these new branch campuses with very low MCAT scores (some claims of even sub 20 admits).

My personal views on the subject are that DO schools should not be opening until the problems with the quanity and quality of DO post graduate education are solved. I also believe that it would be a shame for any DO school to move backwards on admissions standards. Osteopathy has gone through a lot of **** to make itself into what it is today. In terms of respect for the degree and acknowledgment of practice ability, DO's have never been better off. BUT if these branch campuses dilute the applicant pool (I said IF because there are also many very cool and very intelligent students at these branch campuses), I can't see how that is good for the field.

Accrediation isn't granted by the AOA. There is a loophole in the bylaws of the accrediting organization (which I can't remember what is) that allows for new branch campuses from existing schools w/o the formal accrediation process. Word is that the AOA isn't happy about the branch campus but is powerless to stop them.
 
stoic said:
There have been scattered reports on this board about students getting into these new branch campuses with very low MCAT scores (some claims of even sub 20 admits).

My personal views on the subject are that DO schools should not be opening until the problems with the quanity and quality of DO post graduate education are solved. I also believe that it would be a shame for any DO school to move backwards on admissions standards. Osteopathy has gone through a lot of **** to make itself into what it is today. In terms of respect for the degree and acknowledgment of practice ability, DO's have never been better off. BUT if these branch campuses dilute the applicant pool (I said IF because there are also many very cool and very intelligent students at these branch campuses), I can't see how that is good for the field.

Accrediation isn't granted by the AOA. There is a loophole in the bylaws of the accrediting organization (which I can't remember what is) that allows for new branch campuses from existing schools w/o the formal accrediation process. Word is that the AOA isn't happy about the branch campus but is powerless to stop them.


r they also powerless to change the loophole??
 
On the LECOM web site you can find information about the faculty and how PBL operates.
I'm not sure MCAT scores are the best way to show how diluted or undiluted a schools population of student will be. From my personal experience and the experiences of my fellow students the MCAT was not the greatest prognosticator of how we did on step one of COMLEX.
PBL in 2002 at LECOM went like this: The entire class PBL, LDP and ISP all took the anatomy courses together for the first 12 weeks. We all always took OMM every Wednesday even after Anatomy. During this 12 weeks we (PBL) met twice per week to do cases with our group (8 people per group) and our groups facilitator (MSI year a PhD, one of the basic science Profs and MSII year a Physician, also usually a Prof at the school.).
After anatomy was over first year we met three time per week with our facilitator for approximately 2 hours per meeting to do cases.
Second year we met twice per week for approx the same amount of time to do the same thing. After fivr cases there would be an exam over the learning issues our groups had picked (usually chapters in one of the recommended text books).
 
For info on the LECOM Bradenton got to www.lecom.edu the under then on the first page click on Florida Campus and on the next page click on Directory.
This list will be all the current faculty, staff, administration etc. At least one of the administration people teach anatomy, Dr. Kreuger.
 
babyruth said:
One of my colleagues mentioned that some of their friends got into the Las Vegas school without even an interview... scary.
This is impossible. The only way he got in w/o interviewing during his year is by interviewing at Touro-CA for the prior year, getting waitlisted and given the opportunity to attend any campus the following year... so he was not technically interviewed that matriculating year, but was interviewed. If this isn't your friend of a friend's story, he or she is lying.

About accreditation, they are not "automatically accredited". They just don't have a pending status until after their first year graduates... in order to do this, they must have an identical curriculum as their main campus. This still does not mean they can automatically be accredited... that's just another false statement you guys are making.

Here is a quote from the TUCOM-NV website, from their dean about their campus:
On the basis of recommendations made by our accrediting body, we have built additional student study rooms and areas.
All they get is a non-pending status because they have proved their curriculum works... everything else MUST STILL BE APPROVED.
 
TCOM-2006 said:
great - i would really like to learn more FL statistics (facutly #, teaching hospital, etc) and about the PBL setup. obviously i have a lot to learn here - so any websites or information you can post here i would appreciate.

As far as I know the teaching facilitieswill be the same as the school in Erie.
 
This is of grave concern to some of us. In the eyes of many of my classmates Branch Schools are suspect. My class through the SGA is in the process of writing a letter to AOA expressing our displeasure with these branch schools. If we are to propell our profession into the next century we need focus on generating more research and improving the quantity and quality of our post graduate education. If we are going to open new schools it should be modeled after VCOM or even better MSU or OSU, not branch schools that are propiatery and have the feel of a puppy mill.
 
Yes, LECOM requires that all students go through the interview process to get accepted. Thank you.



Melissa Stimmler

Admissions Counselor

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine

1858 West Grandview Blvd

Erie, PA 16509

Phone: 814-866-6641

Fax: 814-866-8123

Email: [email protected]



-----Original Message-----
From: Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject:



Is an interview required for admission to LECOM Bradenton?



AwesomeO-DO

DO 07

DMU-COM
 
AwesomeO-DO said:
Yes, LECOM requires that all students go through the interview process to get accepted. Thank you.



Melissa Stimmler

Admissions Counselor

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine

1858 West Grandview Blvd

Erie, PA 16509

Phone: 814-866-6641

Fax: 814-866-8123

Email: [email protected]



-----Original Message-----
From: Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject:



Is an interview required for admission to LECOM Bradenton?



AwesomeO-DO

DO 07

DMU-COM


akk! did u really use that in your letter??

"DO 07

DMU-COM"

:laugh:
 
Mercenary as most of these branch schools are, and dire as the lack of osteopathic residencies is, it does have a definite silver lining: The huge upsurge in graduating DO's a few years down the line will consist of generally less-qualified students who are probably more interested in primary care. There are plenty of primary care slots that go unfilled every year, and so long as these students can pass their boards, which are going to stay the same regardless of how many satellite schools open, they'll make decent primary care physicians.

There's always going to be a place for the primary care doc who's absolutely spectacular and could have gone into any number of competitive specialties, but chose FP or peds, etc. I hope to be one, and I certainly would want my family to go to one. But for the thousands of communities with no doc at all, I'm sure they'd prefer a doctor-mill DO to none at all, or even an NP or PA.

It's tough to separate motivations from consequences--the motivations for many of these schools are indeed highly suspect; I still can't get over the fact that AZCOM opened a podiatry school, and everyone knows about LECOM'S marble busts-of-the-founding-gods. Irritating as it is to see the degree diluted with such crassness, I can't see but that that it will have overall good results for the profession and for general health care. It may take some luster off the degree, but we didn't have much luster to take off in the first place--that's not what we're about. Serving the underserved is the *real* hallmark of osteopathy, and this seems to be moving that goal along.
 
You mentioned taking the luster off of the degree which doesn't have much as it is. This is disconcerting to me, such as it seems that we have already fought tooth and nail for equal rights as physicians. I just hope we don't have another fiasco similar to the Flexner report or the closing of schools during the 60s...
 
babyruth said:
You mentioned taking the luster off of the degree which doesn't have much as it is. This is disconcerting to me, such as it seems that we have already fought tooth and nail for equal rights as physicians. I just hope we don't have another fiasco similar to the Flexner report or the closing of schools during the 60s...

True enough--I don't mean to suggest that the stigma associated with DOs up until twenty or thirty years ago is something to look back on nostalgically (though I would argue that it was at least partially justified--osteopathic training was not the equal of allopathic from the early 20th century up until very, very recently).

There's a difference, though, between equal rights and prestige, and I tend to worry that osteopathy is focusing on two counterproductive trends: an overemphasis on the fringe aspects of OMM to shore up a notion of identity, and increasing focus on already-saturated specialties with the argument that an osteopathic, say, urologist is just as good as an allopathic one.

Both are fair goals within reason, and they somewhat offset each other. They both detract from the really important part of osteopathy, though, which is filling crucial health care needs that might otherwise go unfilled. Of course, many of these underserved spots are underserved because the location and scope of practice are not generally considered prestigious. It's inevitable, then, that filling this need more aggressively will lead to some identification with that type of medicine, which will in turn lead to a less glamorous reputation than many want for osteopathy.

AOA is all about the trendy whole-person, natural, cutting-edge-holistic stuff, and promotes its vision for osteopathy through equally trendy methods (let's get DOs on the WB network!) Frankly, I don't see this doing much good for the nation as a whole. I'm sure the AOA's motivations are nothing but sincere, and I'm almost as sure that many of these satellite schools are born of crass motives. That may very well end up being reflected in how people look at DOs 20 years from now. All the same, I think that the opening of new schools is going to do more good for those we're called to serve than "increased awareness" of the profession, AOA-style, will.
 
LukeWhite said:
It's tough to separate motivations from consequences--the motivations for many of these schools are indeed highly suspect; I still can't get over the fact that AZCOM opened a podiatry school, and everyone knows about LECOM'S marble busts-of-the-founding-gods. Irritating as it is to see the degree diluted with such crassness, I can't see but that that it will have overall good results for the profession and for general health care. It may take some luster off the degree, but we didn't have much luster to take off in the first place--that's not what we're about. Serving the underserved is the *real* hallmark of osteopathy, and this seems to be moving that goal along.


Ah....so now even though I didnt bring it up....I get a good laugh at it everytime I see it, I gotta put the link up....
http://www.ajuel.com/Lecom framepage.htm
enjoy....
stomper
 
"Dr Silvia Ferretti, Dean of LECOM, meets the Greek god of healing, Aesculapius."

Dressed, it would seem, in her timeless legacy, dress, and key.

Awesome.
 
LukeWhite said:
Mercenary as most of these branch schools are, and dire as the lack of osteopathic residencies is, it does have a definite silver lining: The huge upsurge in graduating DO's a few years down the line will consist of generally less-qualified students who are probably more interested in primary care. There are plenty of primary care slots that go unfilled every year, and so long as these students can pass their boards, which are going to stay the same regardless of how many satellite schools open, they'll make decent primary care physicians.

.

First of all, I don't agree that less qualified docs are inherently more genuinely interested in primary care, just that some are perhaps willing to "settle" for it.

But this is no silver lining: an upsurge in DOs and a resultant lowering of average ability and clinical knowledge among our ranks is terrible for our profession, because that sets the standard by which we are all judged. People will form their impression of DOs based on interactions with these "puppies" and decide that we should all be put to sleep, or at the very least, neutered.
 
InductionAgent said:
First of all, I don't agree that less qualified docs are inherently more genuinely interested in primary care, just that some are perhaps willing to "settle" for it.

But this is no silver lining: an upsurge in DOs and a resultant lowering of average ability and clinical knowledge among our ranks is terrible for our profession, because that sets the standard by which we are all judged. People will form their impression of DOs based on interactions with these "puppies" and decide that we should all be put to sleep, or at the very least, neutered.

I didn't mean to suggest that these less-qualified students will be "genuinely" interested; I'm certain that the majority of them will settle for the same reason that derm residencies don't go unfilled while FP routinely does--the vast majority of students, given the choice, will take the better-paying and less stressful career path.

But just as I'm not too concerned about the schools' motivations for opening, I'm not too concerned about their students' motivations for going into primary care. Will this dilution result in doctors who aren't as well trained? Absolutely, just as the explosion of non-satellite osteopathic schools over the last few decades has brought up some competency issues. I completely agree that this will lead to an impression less stellar than if we had three DO schools that accepted only the best, brightest, and most dedicated to the True Spirit of Osteopathy. I submit, though, that we should be less concerned with impressions than we are with filling health care voids.

If we don't do it, the NPs and PAs will, and before you know it, a doctor will be the thing you go to when your primary care health extender can't figure out what's going on. I suppose that would be fine too, and better than our current situation, but I"d prefer that the point of entry into the healthcare system be a physician, and the only way to accomplish that is to expand the number of primary care docs.
 
InductionAgent said:
First of all, I don't agree that less qualified docs are inherently more genuinely interested in primary care, just that some are perhaps willing to "settle" for it.

But this is no silver lining: an upsurge in DOs and a resultant lowering of average ability and clinical knowledge among our ranks is terrible for our profession, because that sets the standard by which we are all judged. People will form their impression of DOs based on interactions with these "puppies" and decide that we should all be put to sleep, or at the very least, neutered.


There in lies the problem. They lower the standard by which the rest of us are judged. Talk to your class presidents your SGA if you feel that these schools are a detriment to the profession, write letters to the AOA. They probably won?t do a damn thing about it but at least we can express our displeasure.
 
I think satellite schools are a kinda dumb thing. I wish the schools would just put forth the effort to have them be independant on their own. Kinda like AZCOM and CCOM. Both are midwestern but quite unique in their own ways but seperate.

I dunno....I jsut don't see many allopathic branch campuses.


On the bright note there will be more DO's out in the world and filling most of the primary care spots plus there is goign to be a much greater reconition out there of the degree. Which in a way is something I think the AOA thought about when they opened the schools without opening more residencies.
 
The question that must be asked is that if we do get reconition will it be in a positive regard as good clinicians and good researchers who expand upon medicine or will it be as half a$$ed physicians whos patients are safer with PA and NP's.
 
Docgeorge said:
The question that must be asked is that if we do get reconition will it be in a positive regard as good clinicians and good researchers who expand upon medicine or will it be as half a$$ed physicians whos patients are safer with PA and NP's.

A question best answered by attending docs on clincials and by standardized board exams, neither of which are going away no matter how many schools open. I am a little curious to see where all the new students will go for their rotations, but I'm sure it'll work out. We at AZCOM are Exhibit 1 for the viability of that model.

You wouldn't have many NPs/PAs passing either COMLEX or USMLE. Eventually one of these schools will fail and have appalling pass rates, but as that's not happened with the current boom of schools, there's no particular reason to think it's going to happen in the next expansion either.
 
Well, let's consider the source of those 161 profs...if there are anywhere near that, I sure haven't seen 'em. We do have excellent faculty, better than most. However, many of our anatomy profs come from backgrounds not at all related to medicine, which was a not insignificant hurdle when trying to learn. Clincials are good but generally require a great deal of traveling and self-organization. There are any number of factors that someone could use to argue that the school shouldn't have been founded (including the persistent rumor that the point of AZCOM was to buoy CCOM's financials).

And yet it still manages to be an exceptional school, and the first choice of many who could have gone to schools with better prestige and name recognition, because it does certain critical things exceptionally well. There's not enough experimentation in medical education, and I'm happy to see some finally starting, even if it does come at the short-term expense of the DO brand. If the AOA were committed to making sure these schools succeeded, it would merge the residency programs, work aggressively for more clinical education opportunities, and stop wasting time on glossy-ad marketing. That, though, is another battle.
 
In my opinion, Osteopathic Medicine should take a balanced approach of increasing the quantity and improving the quality of its physicians. However, osteopathic physicians only make up 6% (correct me if I'm wrong) of the physician population, so increasing the number of competent physicians might be the best thing for it. I, on the other hand, have much higher aspirations than being a "doctor-mill DO", and I hope the rest of the applicants and students of the new DO schools share the same goals.

cardiotonic
TUCOM-NV Class of 2009
 
As a student at LECOM-FL, I assure you that the number of professors here is sufficient. You have to understand that we are in a PBL curriculum, a curriculum that has been extremely succesful at LECOM in Erie. We have our anat/histo/embryo/neuro lectures with six different professors, and then each professor is a PBL facilitator for a group of 8. There is only one class here right now - when new MSI's come in next year, more faculty will be added.

I'm not sure how LECOM-FL or these other "satellite" schools are really any different from AZCOM/CCOM. We have our own administration, faculty, curriculum, building, local rotation sites etc.

I resent the unfounded suggestion that our students are of a lower caliber than any other school. I look forward to our class blowing your schools out of the water when it comes time for the boards next year.

I think, from firsthand experience of living in a community with a new school, that any increase in number of DO's is a good thing. What osteopathic medicine is lacking, more than anything, is RECOGNITION. The situation is not that most people have heard of osteopathic medicine and think it's inferior to allopathic - it is that most people have not heard of it or don't know what it is! Having the new school here, just in the first month the area has a newfound awareness of osteopathic medicine - and NOBODY says "oh it's a satellite school..." :laugh: You think the public gives a crap or even knows what that means? If anything, the public would see the opening of new schools as growth of a profession, which must mean success of a profession.
 
(nicedream) said:
I resent the unfounded suggestion that our students are of a lower caliber than any other school. I look forward to our class blowing your schools out of the water when it comes time for the boards next year.

You've the right to get a bit annoyed at the Katie-bar-the-door attitude, I think, as there seems to be a trend of upstart schools looking down their noses at the more-upstartish schools while at the same time resenting others doing the same to them.

Still, no need to get too defensive--the fact of the matter is that newer schools are less prestigious and will on the whole attract a lower caliber of student. This isn't to say that they'll have their fair share of stellar students; they'll just have more students barely squeaking by than an established school.

Which is fine; I think it's reasonable to take a chance on a small percentage of students that might not have otherwise made the cut, and doing so doesn't necessarily interfere with giving the top-of-the-classers an excellent education. But I'm sure you can agree that no one's ditching Harvard for LECOM-FL or AZCOM or KCOM. There's a loose pecking order, and the marginal students will be disproprtionately represented at the bottom of it.

And again, this isn't bad, but it's inevitable, and something you should make your peace with when you go to a new school.
 
LukeWhite said:
You've the right to get a bit annoyed at the Katie-bar-the-door attitude, I think, as there seems to be a trend of upstart schools looking down their noses at the more-upstartish schools while at the same time resenting others doing the same to them.

Still, no need to get too defensive--the fact of the matter is that newer schools are less prestigious and will on the whole attract a lower caliber of student. This isn't to say that they'll have their fair share of stellar students; they'll just have more students barely squeaking by than an established school.

Which is fine; I think it's reasonable to take a chance on a small percentage of students that might not have otherwise made the cut, and doing so doesn't necessarily interfere with giving the top-of-the-classers an excellent education. But I'm sure you can agree that no one's ditching Harvard for LECOM-FL or AZCOM or KCOM. There's a loose pecking order, and the marginal students will be disproprtionately represented at the bottom of it.

And again, this isn't bad, but it's inevitable, and something you should make your peace with when you go to a new school.

You are absolutely right that there is a pecking order when it comes to admissions numbers. My point is that these don't necessarily correspond to physician quality. All doctors have to take the same boards and complete the same residencies. A 35 MCAT score does not a doctor make.
 
(nicedream) said:
You are absolutely right that there is a pecking order when it comes to admissions numbers. My point is that these don't necessarily correspond to physician quality. All doctors have to take the same boards and complete the same residencies. A 35 MCAT score does not a doctor make.

The correlation isn't exact, but it is there. While I'll be the first to agree that a whole host of factors come into play such that someone with an MCAT 30 may be a far superior doctor to someone ten points higher, there *is* a difference.

So, a word about test scores; if you don't care about MCAT this might be worth skipping: As has been noted, many of the newer schools are accepting people with MCATs in the low 20s, or even in some cases high teens. Keep in mind that anything below a 24 is below average not for med students, but for test takers in general! I know plenty of folks who were in the high-thirties to low-forties range (and though they might exist at AZCOM, I haven't met them) and folks in the very low twenties or high teens. In fact, as someone who's taught MCAT for years, I'm certain that a high-30s scorer generally has a much stronger set of critical thinking skills than someone in the low 20s. If I were picking a doctor for my family, I might not care about the difference between a 25 or 30 or even 35, but I'd be VERY concerned about any doc who got into med school with a 20.

But like I said, you could have skipped all that: the proof's in the pudding. If MCAT/GPA had nothing to do with quality as a physician, you'd think DOs would do as well as their MD counterparts on the USMLE. Doesn't happen, and this difference isn't just because of different focuses. In aggregate, there's a somewhat lower level of knowledge, and that's not a problem in most cases and especially in primary care.

So in my mind it's not a big deal, but it *is* a big deal to pretend that gap's not there. I'm happy with where I am, and I'm sure you've every right to be happy where you are, and future students in yet-unopened schools will be too. But there *is* a difference.
 
PreDentJennifer said:
Hey, I don't think anyone would ditch Harvard period... good point you've made there buddy. Hey (nicedream)... don't let this king of controversy get to you... he was questioning me for calling Dr. Barrett an idiot after he claimed that osteopathic medicine is basically a cult and patients should stay away from them if the D.O. follows Osteopathy. 🙄

Wow, that's got to be one of the most inaccurate summaries I've ever seen. If by "questioned" you mean "asked why I think what I do," er yeah. Which part exactly were you offended by--asking your reasoning, or assuming you needed reasoning in the first place?
 
LukeWhite said:
But like I said, you could have skipped all that: the proof's in the pudding. If MCAT/GPA had nothing to do with quality as a physician, you'd think DOs would do as well as their MD counterparts on the USMLE. Doesn't happen, and this difference isn't just because of different focuses. In aggregate, there's a somewhat lower level of knowledge, and that's not a problem in most cases and especially in primary care.

How do you justify the statement that the diff. in USMLE scores is not just because of diff. focuses?
 
(nicedream) said:
How do you justify the statement that the diff. in USMLE scores is not just because of diff. focuses?

Well, I suppose it depends what you mean by different focuses. I've argued in other threads that there *is* a different focus to the exams, which should be maintained.

All elements of focus aside, the USMLE in general is a more detailed, more difficult, and more precisely written test. I'd encourage you to ask those who have taken both which they found tougher, and if they thought that the USMLE's greater difficulty was simply due to a different focus. Most motivated osteopathic students taking the USMLE know that the test has more biochem, stats, etc., and most still do less well than their allopathic counterparts.

If, though, you're intent on proving that all the new DO schools are somehow every bit as good as their more established counterparts, well again, man, let's see the evidence. Look at the match list for a top-25 allopathic school, compare it to the best osteopathic school you can find, and there's going to be a bit of a prestige gap.

But again, who cares? I don't know what the big deal is with trying to prove that School X doesn't in fact have a lot of marginal students. They, whether they exist or not, aren't going to graduate you or take the test for you. If the school gives you the resources you need to get to where you're going, super. I'm sure that's the case for all existing satellite schools, and for the vast majority that open in the future. I don't see what good that chip on your shoulder's going to do. School rep, once you get down past the top 10 or 25 in the country, is next to meaningless for anything but one's ego.
 
We will all be made very well aware of the quality of education the students that attend these new school are getting in about 2 years, when their first batch of 2nd years take the level 1 boards. If they aren't being taught well, they won't do well compared to students at the current schools. It's at that time that we should start being critical of new satellite schools being open, but only if the test scores back up our current assumptions.
 
AwesomeO-DO said:
We will all be made very well aware of the quality of education the students that attend these new school are getting in about 2 years, when their first batch of 2nd years take the level 1 boards. If they aren't being taught well, they won't do well compared to students at the current schools. It's at that time that we should start being critical of new satellite schools being open, but only if the test scores back up our current assumptions.
They follow the exact curriculum as thier primary location. No reason to do poorly, which is why their curriculum does not need accreditation again. It's proven. They do however need accreditation with their facility for obvious reasons.
 
LukeWhite said:
Well, let's consider the source of those 161 profs...if there are anywhere near that, I sure haven't seen 'em. We do have excellent faculty, better than most. However, many of our anatomy profs come from backgrounds not at all related to medicine, which was a not insignificant hurdle when trying to learn. Clincials are good but generally require a great deal of traveling and self-organization. There are any number of factors that someone could use to argue that the school shouldn't have been founded (including the persistent rumor that the point of AZCOM was to buoy CCOM's financials).

And yet it still manages to be an exceptional school, and the first choice of many who could have gone to schools with better prestige and name recognition, because it does certain critical things exceptionally well. There's not enough experimentation in medical education, and I'm happy to see some finally starting, even if it does come at the short-term expense of the DO brand. If the AOA were committed to making sure these schools succeeded, it would merge the residency programs, work aggressively for more clinical education opportunities, and stop wasting time on glossy-ad marketing. That, though, is another battle.


wow... 161?!??! r u sure?? that is like on par with very large schools... how many does nycom have?? dont they have the largest class???
 
Ok, so my SGA elected me to look into these new schools and see if any of the rumors are true. Then I am suppose to report back with what I find, so they can send a letter to the AOA stating that they don't approve to opening new schools, and making "doctor-mills".... blah blah blah. Anyone else think this is a stupid idea?
 
haha... 🙄

the guy with the idea has to act on it mentality.... have fun! hehe
 
AwesomeO-DO said:
Ok, so my SGA elected me to look into these new schools and see if any of the rumors are true. Then I am suppose to report back with what I find, so they can send a letter to the AOA stating that they don't approve to opening new schools, and making "doctor-mills".... blah blah blah. Anyone else think this is a stupid idea?

Hmm....see if the rumors are true and then report back so they can send a disapproving letter? Sounds like they already made up their mind whether or not the rumors prove true...

Let me clear up the accreditation issue. The standard procedure is for a new school to have provisional accreditation until the first class graduates - at that time full accreditation is granted. This is simply the procedure.

As far as faculty, it's not like they picked people up off the street and said "hey wanna teach medschool?" Our faculty comes from allopathic and osteopathic schools across the country - in fact, being in Florida makes it easy to attract many candidates.

DO schools looking down on other DO schools is really stupid and counter-productive. We have enough prejudice to deal with as a profession without having it against each other. Our profession is growing, that is a good thing. Everyone complains about a lack of awareness of osteopathic medicine - could it have something to do with DO's making up only 4% of practicing physicians??? "Doctor-mill" is BS. The standards of education are the same.
 
(nicedream) said:
Hmm....see if the rumors are true and then report back so they can send a disapproving letter? Sounds like they already made up their mind whether or not the rumors prove true...

Let me clear up the accreditation issue. The standard procedure is for a new school to have provisional accreditation until the first class graduates - at that time full accreditation is granted. This is simply the procedure.

As far as faculty, it's not like they picked people up off the street and said "hey wanna teach medschool?" Our faculty comes from allopathic and osteopathic schools across the country - in fact, being in Florida makes it easy to attract many candidates.

DO schools looking down on other DO schools is really stupid and counter-productive. We have enough prejudice to deal with as a profession without having it against each other. Our profession is growing, that is a good thing. Everyone complains about a lack of awareness of osteopathic medicine - could it have something to do with DO's making up only 4% of practicing physicians??? "Doctor-mill" is BS. The standards of education are the same.


hmm.. along those lines then, are place(s) like VCOM accredited?? I know it has not yet had a graduating class, having been founded in 2002.
 
The trouble is in my eyes is not the fact that we are growing it more of a problem of how we are doing it. If we are going to open schools it should be in the line of VCOM, or even better yet MSU, OSU, or UMDMJ. Furthermore if we are to open new schools we need to make sure that we have GME programs that are sufficent in quantity and quality. I belive growth in the Osteopathic profession is a good thing if it is done in a controled and gradual pace, with focus on research and didactics of sufficent depth and bredth to produce competent and qualified physicians who will make meaningfull contributions to the advancement of medical sciences as a whole.
 
AwsomeDO what do you think is a stupid idea? The fact that we have schools opening up branch programs willy nilly or the fact that you were elected to look into it for the SGA?
 
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