DO schools and "easy" dont go together...

[HumbleMD]

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Just to throw out there for a good comparison of curricula. Michigan State University's school of osteopathic medicine and m.d. school have classes together. The D.O.'s can pass the same class with a grade 5% lower. Although, most people don't like to talk "numbers" and "data" on this issue.

 

[jkhamlin]

🙄 Troll.

 

[toothless rufus]

The D.O.'s can pass the same class with a grade 5% lower.

If that's true...why is it true?

 

[anb111]

talk about ridiculous. it must be nice to sit in front of your computer and banter about irrelevant topics (i.e. such topics include babbling on about which type of degree is better). i'm surprised some of you have so much energy to focus on ensuring that you convince others in the never-ending debate of what's better: DO or MD? maybe you should focus on getting into medical school and stop being so ignorant. and remember, doctors NEED to have an OPEN MIND, so i suggest you adopt one now if you haven't already done so!

that's my two cents.

 

[HumbleMD]

🙄 Troll.

cough

...Although, most people don't like to talk "numbers" and "data" on this issue...

 

[jkhamlin]

Troll.

 

[Kuba]

Troll.

😕 If what Humble said is true, he/she has a good point.

 

[koennen]

😕 If what Humble said is true, he/she has a good point.

I agree. If it is true, it must reflect MSU's experience that DO students don't perform at the same academic level as the MD students - i.e., that greater % of DO students fail/do poorly, rather than some preconceived notion that DO students just aren't as smart.

Humble, where did you get this information?

And jk, summarily dismissing Humble's comments by labelling him a "troll" does little to advance the discussion. I've read quite a few of Humble's posts and he is not a troll. But I suspect I'm not telling you something you don't already know ...

Assuming again that what Humble said is true, jk, why do YOU think MSU sets different standards for DO and MD students?

Or am I a troll too?

 

[jkhamlin]

I agree. If it is true, it must reflect MSU's experience that DO students don't perform at the same academic level as the MD students - i.e., that greater % of DO students fail/do poorly, rather than some preconceived notion that DO students just aren't as smart.

Humble, where did you get this information?

And jk, summarily dismissing Humble's comments by labelling him a "troll" does little to advance the discussion. I've read quite a few of Humble's posts and he is not a troll. But I suspect I'm not telling you something you don't already know ...

Assuming again that what Humble said is true, jk, why do YOU think MSU sets different standards for DO and MD students?

Or am I a troll too?

Well, you tend to be rude, but I don't suspect you are a troll. HumbleMD, however, is a troll. All of his behavior is typical of trolling behavior. Come on, 5%? 🙄 He repeats such things as stating that people don't want to discuss the numbers. That is all DO supporters do until these discussions go downhill. They just don't agree with made up numbers like his. He has yet to substantiate any of his claims. I'm sure he can't substantiate any of his claims. He is trying to keep a flame war going, and he will say anything it takes to do so. So far, you guys are taking the bait. I shouldn't even be responding to you because acknowledging this feeds him.

 

[HumbleMD]

Well, you tend to be rude, but I don't suspect you are a troll. HumbleMD, however, is a troll. All of his behavior is typical of trolling behavior. Come on, 5%? 🙄 He repeats such things as stating that people don't want to discuss the numbers. That is all DO supporters do until these discussions go downhill. They just don't agree with made up numbers like his. He has yet to substantiate any of his claims. I'm sure he can't substantiate any of his claims. He is trying to keep a flame war going, and he will say anything it takes to do so. So far, you guys are taking the bait. I shouldn't even be responding to you because acknowledging this feeds him.

Have I fallen into Winston Salem of the past? One can't just dismiss something they don't want to hear as being trollish. Especially when it's a truth. BTW, the sun does NOT revolve around the earth (dodges stones).

The 5% thing is indeed true, and you can confirm by asking any MSU DO or MD student. I learned this fact by talking to students on my interview. I haven't seen anyone else substantiate their claims, so don't understand why I'd have to. You may choose to believe what you wish (enjoy life in the dark ages of disbelief), but I'm not usually one to falsify numbers. I also didn't want to make any value judgement or hypothesis as to why the 5% difference is there (if I did share why, I'm sure JK would label me a troll anyways, and anything I came up with would be a guess anyways).

 

[jkhamlin]

See there? We fed the troll and he came back. He still hasn't substantiated any of his claims, he just repeated them and threw around a few personal insults.

 

[myleghurts]

HumbleMD is not a troll. I have talked to many MSU MD and DO students and this is correct. MD students must get a 75% to pass while DO students need a 70%. At least that is what I remember being told. The 5% difference is correct. Face the facts guys... well at least MSU MDs are expected to be more competent than MSU DOs.

 

[digital01]

HumbleMD is not a troll. I have talked to many MSU MD and DO students and this is correct. MD students must get a 75% to pass while DO students need a 70%. At least that is what I remember being told. The 5% difference is correct. Face the facts guys... well at least MSU MDs are expected to be more competent than MSU DOs.

Yea, but in reality, don't you hope that both aim for higher than what it takes just to pass?

 

[HumbleMD]

See there? We fed the troll and he came back. He still hasn't substantiated any of his claims, he just repeated them and threw around a few personal insults.

Ugh.
I didn't even revive this 2 month old thread. The only way that one will substantiate this fact is by talking to an MSU MD or DO for themselves, but most don't choose to look for evidence of something they don't want to believe. No value judgement has been made by any side on the grading policy difference, so I see no reason why people are becoming so offended.
Seriously JK, the ostrich look does not look good on you, and the sand in your ears must be uncomfortable. And is there anyone of a differing opinion from your own you haven't called a troll?

Signed,
JK's "witch" of the DO forum

 

[toothless rufus]

HumbleMD is not a troll. I have talked to many MSU MD and DO students and this is correct. MD students must get a 75% to pass while DO students need a 70%. At least that is what I remember being told. The 5% difference is correct. Face the facts guys... well at least MSU MDs are expected to be more competent than MSU DOs.

Wow...👎

 

[Packamylase]

Wow...👎

Yes, 👎 is right. myleghurts IS a troll.

 

[myleghurts]

I was not trolling. Face the truth guys. Disagree all you want but at least you should be informed of the harder effort it takes to earn the MD degree. MD students have and will continue to have higher entering GPAs and MCAT scores. (And have just the same qualitative quantities pre-DOs claim that only they have.... you guys are just justifying your lesser degree on something all pre-MDs also have so stop doing it).

 

[myleghurts]

Touro - Harlem...

Need I say more?

😕

 

[MJB]

Are these two...13 or so?

 

[czanetti]

I was not trolling. Face the truth guys. Disagree all you want but at least you should be informed of the harder effort it takes to earn the MD degree. MD students have and will continue to have higher entering GPAs and MCAT scores. (And have just the same qualitative quantities pre-DOs claim that only they have.... you guys are just justifying your lesser degree on something all pre-MDs also have so stop doing it).

Lesser degree? I don't know how you can justify that when we go to medical school for 4 years, take the boards, go through residency, treat the same people. I do not expect anyone to believe that because you got a 33 on the MCAT compared to my 27, a 3.8 GPA compared to my 3.6 that you will be a better doctor than me. Only a fool would think that numbers that are not even a statistically significant deviation away and do not determine how well you will do on your boards will have any say on how good of a doctor you will be. Only a fool would think otherwise. A insecure person that needs self gratification because they have there head to far up there butt to realize what it really means to be a doctor. We are here to help people get over yourself.

 

[koshka]

Lesser degree? I don't know how you can justify that when we go to medical school for 4 years, take the boards, go through residency, treat the same people. I do not expect anyone to believe that because you got a 33 on the MCAT compared to my 27, a 3.8 GPA compared to my 3.6 that you will be a better doctor than me. Only a fool would think that numbers that are not even a statistically significant deviation away and do not determine how well you will do on your boards will have any say on how good of a doctor you will be. Only a fool would think otherwise. A insecure person that needs self gratification because they have there head to far up there butt to realize what it really means to be a doctor. We are here to help people get over yourself.

I find it rather interesting that it is always the same few people who participate in discussions of such nature on sdn. I find it rather odd since its usually those that do not plan on attending a DO school. If you are not interested in in these schools, than why have arguments about them...what really bothers me is why do you guys care soo much?
czanetti, this comment is not meant for you, but people you were responding to.

 

[myleghurts]

If I were the patient I would choose the more competent physician. This means I would choose the doctor that outperformed others on things like the MCAT and board exams. Another good indication of higher competence is the MD degree. Your life is at stake folks... who would you choose?

 

[czanetti]

If I were the patient I would choose the more competent physician. This means I would choose the doctor that outperformed others on things like the MCAT and board exams. Another good indication of higher competence is the MD degree. Your life is at stake folks... who would you choose?

I would choose the one that was able to earn the right to get into the best residency program. And guess what your GPA and MCAT score doesn't do that its your boards. And once again your board score is not determined by GPA or MCAT do your home work buddy
http://www.hsc.unt.edu/education/tcom/Residencyopps.cfm

here a list of residency programs that students from and Osteopathic school got into. Crazy isn't it??

Oh yeah and the head of Johns Hopkins Internal medicine department is a DO that graduated from TCOM.

 

[jkhamlin]

Yes, 👎 is right. myleghurts IS a troll.

Yep.

 

[docem]

I find it rather interesting that it is always the same few people who participate in discussions of such nature on sdn. I find it rather odd since its usually those that do not plan on attending a DO school. If you are not interested in in these schools, than why have arguments about them...what really bothers me is why do you guys care soo much?
czanetti, this comment is not meant for you, but people you were responding to.

I agree and was about to post the same thing...why are those of you who are certain the MD is the right and better path for you so concerned about convincing DO students that they are inferior? In the end residency programs are going to select students with the best board scores and grades. If MD programs prepare you better and have higher standards...what are you worried about?

Once you get out of your undergrad/pre-med world you may find that GPA and standarized tests are not what reality is based on, even though that is what it may appear like now. No one is going to care in 10 years if you got a C in orgo or if you got an A.

I wish everybody luck in whatever they plan to do MD or DO.

 

[jkhamlin]

Lesser degree? I don't know how you can justify that when we go to medical school for 4 years, take the boards, go through residency, treat the same people. I do not expect anyone to believe that because you got a 33 on the MCAT compared to my 27, a 3.8 GPA compared to my 3.6 that you will be a better doctor than me. Only a fool would think that numbers that are not even a statistically significant deviation away and do not determine how well you will do on your boards will have any say on how good of a doctor you will be. Only a fool would think otherwise. A insecure person that needs self gratification because they have there head to far up there butt to realize what it really means to be a doctor. We are here to help people get over yourself.

 

[Packamylase]

If I were the patient I would choose the more competent physician. This means I would choose the doctor that outperformed others on things like the MCAT and board exams. Another good indication of higher competence is the MD degree. Your life is at stake folks... who would you choose?

Obviously, myleghurts equates "competence as a physician" with higher GPA and higher MCAT scores. Graduates of Allopathic schools, on AVERAGE, had higher GPA and higher MCAT scores upon matriculation, so graduates of allopathic schools are more competent.

That's his argument, so, myleghurts, you can leave this forum now.

 

[HumbleMD]

I find it rather interesting that it is always the same few people who participate in discussions of such nature on sdn. I find it rather odd since its usually those that do not plan on attending a DO school. If you are not interested in in these schools, than why have arguments about them...what really bothers me is why do you guys care soo much?
czanetti, this comment is not meant for you, but people you were responding to.

Aside from the necessity to defend myself (I don't normally weigh in on MD DO pissing matches, but happenned to on this one and was being challenged), the subject of quality of physicians is an important one to me. In my work with underserved and underprivileged populations, I have seen plenty of doctors who have no business practicing medicine dolling out iatrogenic treatments and bad advice that the patients follow becuase it was given out by a "doctor." Thus, when I see some applicants who have not demonstrated the intellectual ability to become a medical professional use different back doors to fulfill their own personal goals of becoming a doctor, it both frustrates and worries me. As I have said multiple times before, I am excited by many of the tenants of Osteapathic medicine which stress preventive care and are slowl to prescribe expensive treatments. I am also excited by the applicants who chose DO for its philosophy, rather than out of necessity from their own situation (but in my experience this is often the minority). By no means do I believe all osteopathic schools are back doors, but there are definitely some out there.

I have devoted my undergraduate career to learning as much as I possibly can and being accepted to the best medical education I can attain so that the populations I serve in the future will not be suffering a lack of quality in their care merely because of their position in life.

Call me a troll, whatever, knee-jerk reactions are both easy as well as infantile (and usually littered with emoticons), but I still stand by my posts on this thread.

 

[Packamylase]

I would choose the one that was able to earn the right to get into the best residency program. And guess what your GPA and MCAT score doesn't do that its your boards. And once again your board score is not determined by GPA or MCAT do your home work buddy
http://www.hsc.unt.edu/education/tcom/Residencyopps.cfm

here a list of residency programs that students from and Osteopathic school got into. Crazy isn't it??

Oh yeah and the head of Johns Hopkins Internal medicine department is a DO that graduated from TCOM.

Very impressive graduate placement, czanetti. Congrats on your TCOM acceptance.

 

[jkhamlin]

I agree and was about to post the same thing...why are those of you who are certain the MD is the right and better path for you so concerned about convincing DO students that they are inferior?

It's called trolling, guys.

 

[docem]

Aside from the necessity to defend myself (I don't normally weigh in on MD DO pissing matches, but happenned to on this one and was being challenged), the subject of quality of physicians is an important one to me. In my work with underserved and underprivileged populations, I have seen plenty of doctors who have no business practicing medicine dolling out iatrogenic treatments and bad advice that the patients follow becuase it was given out by a "doctor." Thus, when I see some applicants who have not demonstrated the intellectual ability to become a medical professional use different back doors to fulfill their own personal goals of becoming a doctor, it both frustrates and worries me. As I have said multiple times before, I am excited by many of the tenants of Osteapathic medicine which stress preventive care and are slowly to prescribe expensive treatments. I am also excited by the applicants who chose DO for its philosophy, rather than out of necessity from their own situation (but in my experience this is often the minority). By no means do I believe all osteopathic schools are back doors, but there are definitely some out there.

I have devoted my undergraduate career to learning as much as I possibly can and being accepted to the best medical education I can attain so that the populations I serve in the future will not be suffering a lack of quality in their care merely because of their position in life.

Call me a troll, whatever, knee-jerk reactions are both easy as well as infantile (and usually littered with emoticons), but I still stand by my posts on this thread.

I agree with you (after working for the past 7 years with underserved populations in the US and in Central America) that there are many "quack" physicians who prey on underserved communities...However, I do not think that DO is a back door, and that if you look at the majority of those who are providing bad care, it is MDs - because they are the majority of physicians.

Honestly, I do not think that you are a troll...it sounds like what you want is for all patients to get good care as would most people (hopefully) wanting to become physicians are...I just don't think that the majority of DO students who are accepted are using it as a back door and will be bad doctors.

 

[HumbleMD]

I agree with you (after working for the past 7 years with underserved populations in the US and in Central America) that there are many "quack" physicians who prey on underserved communities...However, I do not think that DO is a back door, and that if you look at the majority of those who are providing bad care, it is MDs - because they are the majority of physicians.

Honestly, I do not think that you are a troll...it sounds like what you want is for all patients to get good care as would most people (hopefully) wanting to become physicians are...I just don't think that the majority of DO students who are accepted are using it as a back door and will be bad doctors.

I fully agree and even stated I don't believe the majority are, but I do believe that there are many applicants out there who use (rather, abuse) DO's more holistic application procedure as a back door (see my first post on this thread for an anecdote). Thank you also, for actually engaging in a civil, intelligent online discussion rather than plugging your ears and screaming insults and accusations.

 

[jkhamlin]

I fully agree and even stated I don't believe the majority are, but I do believe that there are many applicants out there who use (rather, abuse) DO's more holistic application procedure as a back door (see my first post on this thread for an anecdote). Thank you also, for actually engaging in a civil, intelligent online discussion rather than plugging your ears and screaming insults and accusations.

cough

And as far as osteopaths spending more time with their patients, did you ever think that perhaps they have to becuase their diagnosis technique isn't as good as an M.D.'s (less efficient)? I'm just throwing it out there...

I'd love to see oseopathic schools host well-qualified students who care more about their patients, but you osteopathic folks need to stop deluding yourselves and justifying your own inadequacies, and face the reality of the current situation.

🙄

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Aside from the necessity to defend myself (I don't normally weigh in on MD DO pissing matches, but happenned to on this one and was being challenged), the subject of quality of physicians is an important one to me. In my work with underserved and underprivileged populations, I have seen plenty of doctors who have no business practicing medicine dolling out iatrogenic treatments and bad advice that the patients follow becuase it was given out by a "doctor." Thus, when I see some applicants who have not demonstrated the intellectual ability to become a medical professional use different back doors to fulfill their own personal goals of becoming a doctor, it both frustrates and worries me. As I have said multiple times before, I am excited by many of the tenants of Osteapathic medicine which stress preventive care and are slowl to prescribe expensive treatments. I am also excited by the applicants who chose DO for its philosophy, rather than out of necessity from their own situation (but in my experience this is often the minority). By no means do I believe all osteopathic schools are back doors, but there are definitely some out there.

I have devoted my undergraduate career to learning as much as I possibly can and being accepted to the best medical education I can attain so that the populations I serve in the future will not be suffering a lack of quality in their care merely because of their position in life.

Call me a troll, whatever, knee-jerk reactions are both easy as well as infantile (and usually littered with emoticons), but I still stand by my posts on this thread.

Yet this is the guy who was asking on the pre-allo board about whether or not he should pay extra money to go to Penn to make more money as a doctor. If you care so much about working with underserved populations, that'd be a non-issue. Sure, you're a saint who's just worried about other people. 🙄

 

[myleghurts]

Yet this is the guy who was asking on the pre-allo board about whether or not he should pay extra money to go to Penn to make more money as a doctor. If you care so much about working with underserved populations, that'd be a non-issue. Sure, you're a saint who's just worried about other people. 🙄

Excuse me? Making more money will allow HumbleMD to do more for the world. If he makes more in his work, HumbleMD can volunteer more, do more medical mission trips and open a free clinic. If he didn't have a high income this would be impossible. What do starving Africans contribute to the world? Nothing. If HumbleMD is wealthy he can make more money and better serve his community. Get off your high horse. I have personally met HumbleMD and can vouche for his character.

 

[MJB]

Nevermind.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Excuse me? Making more money will allow HumbleMD to do more for the world. If he makes more in his work, HumbleMD can volunteer more, do more medical mission trips and open a free clinic. If he didn't have a high income this would be impossible. What do starving Africans contribute to the world? Nothing. If HumbleMD is wealthy he can make more money and better serve his community. Get off your high horse. I have personally met HumbleMD and can vouche for his character.

Makes me wonder if you are HumbleMD. Even if you're not, your vouch for his character doesn't mean much to me based on your previous posts. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that his and your concern is for the safety of patients. You're here to get your superiority kick and to start a fight.

 

[jkhamlin]

Makes me wonder if you are HumbleMD. Even if you're not, your vouch for his character doesn't mean much to me based on your previous posts. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that his and your concern is for the safety of patients. You're here to get your superiority kick and to start a fight.

Sock puppets. I was going to mention this possibility earlier, but I was getting flamed for stating the obvious...

 

[koennen]

Well, you tend to be rude, but I don't suspect you are a troll.

Well, now you've gone and done it. My feelings are hurt. By the way, who appointed you as the Miss Manners of SDN? The dismissive and argumentative tone of many of your posts can certanly be construed as being "rude." But then, I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored ...

Given my apparent "rudeness," I sure hope you aren't going to report me to SDN, as you implied you would in another thread to a current 2nd year at PCOM who had the audacity to suggest by his comments that he might know a little bit more about med school than a pre-med like you.

HumbleMD, however, is a troll. All of his behavior is typical of trolling behavior. Come on, 5%? 🙄

I don't know if the 5% number is true or not. Do you? You use the "rolleyes" emoticon to imply that his statment is ludicrous on its face. Is it? Is it so out of the realm of possibility that it simply cannot be true? Or would it be too much of a blow to your ego to find out that it is?

I'm sure he can't substantiate any of his claims.

Admittedly, his source is hearsay and he hasn't substantiated that claim. Why don't you show Humble for the flame-war inducing troll that you claim he is. Post the "5% question" to a current MSU DO student in the medical student forum and let us know what you find out.

(Now accepting bets that jk, for reasons to be announced, will not even deem it worth his time to do so.)

By the way, I'm not hating on DOs or osteopathic medical schools. I have applied to both allopathic and osteopathic schools and would be thrilled to attend an osteopathic school.

 

[AustinFinklea]

Well, now you've gone and done it. My feelings are hurt. By the way, who appointed you as the Miss Manners of SDN? The dismissive and argumentative tone of many of your posts can certanly construed as being "rude." But then, I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored ...

Given my apparent "rudeness," I sure hope you aren't going to report me to SDN, as you implied you would in another thread to a current 2nd year at PCOM who had the audacity to suggest by his comments that he might know a little bit more about med school than a pre-med like you.



I don't know if the 5% number is true or not. Do you? You use the "rolleyes" emoticon to imply that his statment is ludicrous on its face. Is it? Is it so out of the realm of possibility that it simply cannot be true? Or would it be too much of a blow to your ego to find out that it is?



Admittedly, his source is hearsay and he hasn't substantiated that claim. Why don't you show Humble for the flame-war inducing troll that you claim he is. Post the "5% question" to a current MSU DO student in the medical student forum and let us know what you find out.

(Now accepting bets that jk, for reasons to be announced, will not even deem it worth his time to do so.)

By the way, I'm not hating on DOs or osteopathic medical schools. I have applied to both allopathic and osteopathic schools and would be thrilled to attend an osteopathic school.

Koennen,

Good post. This guy has been a bit cranky lately........quite frankly getting tired of him knowing (well atleast attempting to know) everything about everthing. 👎

 

[Sartre79]

wow so the people at psu are dinguses once again. in my HPA class they made us memorize 2:1 rejected:accepted. Maybe that is an outdated number. Thanks for the recorrection drkuba.👍

Does accepted = matriculated? People can hold more than one acceptance. 😛

 

[MJB]

***

 

[koennen]

Does accepted = matriculated? People can hold more than one acceptance. 😛

Ok, I'm sure this post somehow contributes to the topic under discussion in this thread. I'll post again as soon as I figure out how.

 

[jp104]

If I were the patient I would choose the more competent physician. This means I would choose the doctor that outperformed others on things like the MCAT and board exams. Another good indication of higher competence is the MD degree. Your life is at stake folks... who would you choose?

When I am looking for a doctor in my HMO directory, I usually call their office and ask the following:

1) What was your MCAT score?
2) Did you honor or high pass in your classes
3) What was your Step1 score?

 

[Nate]

Another MD vs DO thread, closing and etc.